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Deep Down producer offers clarification on lack of female characters

Wednesday, 19 February 2014 04:27 GMT By Brenna Hillier

Deep Down still doesn’t have any women in it, but if it’s any consolation, it hardly has any men in it either, apparently.

You'd be depressed if you'd never met a woman, too.

“There is one male main character in Deep Down. The story is being developed around him and his surrounding Ravens comrades,” Deep Down producer Kazunori Sugiura said in a Facebook post translated by Gematsu.

Sugiura’s comments still do not explain why none of our hero’s companions are women.

It’s also still not clear what character the player is meant to be, given that it’s a co-operative multiplayer title. Are all members of a party playing the same character, or are they in the role of other Ravens?

Sugiura ended his post by thanking international fans for their interest in the title and reiterating that release outside Japan has not been confirmed.

Over the weekend, Sugiura told livestream viewers that there would be no playable female characters in Deep Down. We found this pretty poor in a multiplayer title.

Capcom did not respond to our request for clarification and comment. Nevertheless, it seems Sugiura is aware of our concerns, although they seem to have been miscommunicated.

“From our overseas firm, there was big misconception in an article claiming that there were 12 main characters in Deep Down, all of them male,” he said, a thing nobody anywhere has claimed but probably has roots in my little role-play re: what is wrong with this industry, gosh.

Deep Down is a PS4 exclusive co-op RPG, built on Capcom’s gorgeous-looking new Panta Rhei engine. It’s expected in Japan sometime in or after northern autumn.

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66 Comments

  1. infernalism

    Can we put the issue of playable female characters in Deep Down to rest now?
    No?
    OK, have at it again then…
    Next up, why aren’t there any female characters in male gay porn? Igrained industry sexism? Find out, after these messages…

    #1 11 months ago
  2. Dragon

    I am rather waiting for 100+ comments telling creators how they should create things and how they must allow themselves to be taken hostage by keyboard warriors.

    Who cares about plot or story? Who cares if movies/books/every other entertainment form imaginable has had a single protagonist of CENTURIES?

    Let the needless war over personal opinions misrepresented as facts continue. I am quite happy they aren’t budging because of this needless internet cacophony.

    #2 11 months ago
  3. salarta

    Can’t wait to see what kind of riveting online multiplayer story can only be told with a party of Albert, Albert, Albert and Albert! Surely it’s going to be a great on-rails story that really gets at the heart of how much fun it can be to have absolutely no meaningful variation for available playable characters. Yep, truly, that’s the heart and soul of playing a video game online with multiple players right there, to essentially play a single player game with a party that would make Narcissus blush.

    #3 11 months ago
  4. Dragon

    And adding a single female character would have made everything so much better.
    - Keyboard warrior (2014)

    I guess all those real life war stories featuring only male platoons must have been pretty boring.
    Silly me. Adding a woman there would have dramatically improved the story, like, eh video game called Wet?
    Never thought a the prerequisite of a good story requires a compulsory female character. Hopefully the inevitable keyboard protesters who arrive here also go on streets professing their virtues of utopian equality that should exist in every.game.ever.made. That would be much more useful than repeating same sentences in cyclic order on every thread.
    God forbid if someone takes creative liberties on their self-created works of fiction.

    #4 11 months ago
  5. For Blood

    @Dragon
    Have you never heard of Toejam and Earl and Betty? How about Vectorman and Rhonda?

    #5 11 months ago
  6. Djoenz

    @Dragon
    You do realise without keyboard warriors XboxOne would still have DRM and 24 hour check ups?
    Women like Brenna have their solid opinions nothing wrong with that.

    Its an online MP game after all. I wonder does titanfall have playable female characters?

    #6 11 months ago
  7. TheWulf

    I’m not sure if I accept their character because of the co-op aspect. In Saints Row, both players are the boss, but they can be of different genders and ethnicities and this is equally represented by the game.

    If it was truly a one-character situation, such as with Geralt, I could accept that. But it’s not, is it?

    @1

    Okay, I’m sorry for the following, but I simply can’t believe exactly what I just read. I’m a little bit shaken, because I always foolishly believe I understand the lowest levels of thought, but then something comes along and completely undermines that expectation.

    You are insinuating the following, and I am going to put this in bold so you understand just how mental you are: All video games are the same as gay porn. No video game is different than gay porn. If you were to compare video games to gay porn, you would find that they were identical in every respect.

    I’m sorry, but what? And no, I’m not making you look stupid, that’s all you. All I’m doing is incredulously illustrating just how stunningly ill-conceived you are. Which anyone should be able to see.

    I mean… honestly? …seriously?

    What?

    This is one for the ages. I’m going to use this against misogynists in the future, to understand the kind of person they share a stable with.

    There are no women in video games because all video games are gay porn!” — Infernalism

    Welp. I’m not sure what games you play…

    @2

    Or, you know, it could just be that the empathic person wishes to observe equal rights for all other human beings. Not everyone believes that the commonly unseen should remain unseen.

    Honestly, the treatment of certain types of human being by the mainstream game and film industries is unacceptable. You may support it, but your mindset is probably the kind of mindset that would have supported slavery back in the day, because you’re unable to relate to other people and their needs. Instead, you see people calling for equal rights as an annoyance. Good for you, you entitled straight white cisgendered male jerk.

    And don’t tell me that that’s not what you are, because only that particular subset of people seems to be so completely void of empathy for other human beings.

    It honestly seems to be the most sociopathic subset of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with, and it keeps happening. I don’t like pigeon-holing people, either, but I don’t need to. You’re doing it to yourselves, as you do all the time. I don’t need to justify my views, because you always justify them for me by being monsters.

    Offended? Hurt? Good. That’s just a taste of how other people are feeling. But that doesn’t matter. Everything is about you and your feelings.

    Geez. I couldn’t make this up.

    At this point in my life, being called gay even as a derogatory form is the greatest compliment. Even ‘homo.’ I think that ‘straight white cisgendered male’ is the nastiest insult anyone could use, simply because of the examples of those people we see on a daily basis.

    @3

    +1

    That’s why I don’t buy their explanation. I think it’s down to a more deep-seated misogyny that Capcom should distance themselves from ASAP unless they want to be labelled with it by proxy.

    @4

    Christ. You are such a low-functioning sociopath. People like you are just crimes waiting to happen.

    You’re even purposefully ignoring that the game is co-op, as pointed out by the person you’re replying to, just to try to take away from your gross misogyny. You’re a sickening, vile little thing and you leave me feeling cold and ashamed to share the same species as you.

    Just… a nasty piece of work. And so completely without remorse.

    Go soak your nasty little head.

    #7 11 months ago
  8. Dragon

    @Djoenz,
    Dont get me wrong. I have said this earlier. People can like what they want. Its perfectly fine if a game not having a female character turns off people from buying the game. Absolutely no problem. Your money, your choice.
    But, do you really think every creative work should be made in such a way that it satiates everyone’s tastes? Creators have the first right over their work, not other people.

    What I don’t agree with is this needless social propaganda how any creative work somehow diminishes something just because it doesn’t validate the utopian views of feminist/any other group. Justifying your personal opinion that you need a female character to like a game by making hyperbolic statements about sexism in industry is just needless. It just reeks of a superiority complex shown quite often here by “I hope people are like me” Wulf.
    Many people have simply said how they felt it would have be good if there were female characters, and that is absolutely fine. What sucks is the over-blown tirade by few self-proclaimed feminists here.
    Really, opinions are just that, opinions. However, what you will see here by a handful of people is an over-blown reaction and subsequent attempts at projecting their opinions as some gospel truth.
    Simply put, making a mountain out of a molehill. Something that needlessly stifles creativity just to please a minority internet cacophony.

    Glad you bought X1 debate. Now, think about this. Is it really the internet noise that changed MS thinking, or is it simply that they realised they would lose money with their old policies?
    Action speaks more than mere tedious paras like you would see here.

    Oh, and Wulf, we are not really of same species. I am not like you, I am glad for that.

    #8 11 months ago
  9. Dragon

    “Christ. You are such a low-functioning sociopath. People like you are just crimes waiting to happen.

    You’re even purposefully ignoring that the game is co-op, as pointed out by the person you’re replying to, just to try to take away from your gross misogyny. You’re a sickening, vile little thing and you leave me feeling cold and ashamed to share the same species as you.

    Just… a nasty piece of work. And so completely without remorse.

    Go soak your nasty little head.”

    Great language, bravo. Just shows your really awesome communication skills.
    Again, glad I am not like you :lol:

    #9 11 months ago
  10. Jerykk

    Implementing a female player character is not trivial. You need a new character model, a new rig, a new set of animations, female versions of each piece of armor (or unique pieces that are female-only), new VOs, etc. All of these things take time and thus, money.

    The reality is that the market for action games like Deep Down is primarily male. Overwhelmingly male, even. Publishers will always do what they believe is best for business and if they can cut costs without impacting the bottom line, that’s exactly what they’ll do. If adding a playable female character wouldn’t increase sales enough to offset the extra costs, they won’t do it.

    Would I like to see more playable female characters? Sure. Whenever given the choice, I always choose a female character because I generally find it more interesting. But I understand the reasoning for their exclusion in many games.

    On a side note, posting an angry rant and then turning off comments isn’t really going to gain you any respect. It just makes you look immature. If you want people to listen to you, you have to be willing to listen to them. It’s a two-way street.

    #10 11 months ago
  11. Fin

    If I had my way, all characters in games should be 18-34 year old straight white men.
    It’s just better for stories.

    Note: If you think like this, you’re a cunt.

    The gay porn analogy (hur hur) is hilarious, so moronic it must be a troll – I don’t even understand why gay porn and games are tangentially related (apart from the predominant audience being male).

    #11 11 months ago
  12. oedalis

    Thank you, TheWulf. Every time I devote a great deal of time to playing the few games I own that actually allow for a female protagonist, and am away from online forums on gaming for too long, I forget what awful trolls so many male gamers are.

    When I’m co-oping with these people, who obviously don’t know I’m female, I manage to delude myself into thinking misogynist shit heads are in the minority and most don’t actually want to spoil the fun of gamers who are female by vocally and blisteringly advocating for the limitation of games that offer the option to play a character of the female gender.

    But then I stop playing and I get online and see the grim reminders of how actually marginalized my gender is in this arena.

    #12 11 months ago
  13. Fin

    @Jerykk

    “If adding a playable female character wouldn’t increase sales enough to offset the extra costs, they won’t do it.”

    This is a silly argument. Adding a playable female character after all the other characters have been completed would increase costs, but planning to make half of the 12 available characters female from the start? You budget for it and then do it, you don’t worry about cost.
    The industry as a whole is sexist.

    “It just makes you look immature.”

    LOL, definition of irony right there.

    #13 11 months ago
  14. Dragon

    @Jerykk,
    Well said. I doubt anyone is against female characters in them. Why would anyone?
    But over-blown reactions without a 2 way communication, which just blames creators for every damn thing is just anti-creativity.

    #14 11 months ago
  15. nostramo

    How about some clarification on the
    monetisation aspect of this game, it is
    free to play after all?

    #15 11 months ago
  16. oedalis

    Spare me your I’ll thought out arguments male gamer dudes. You’re never expected to be content playing the opposite gender AS A DEFAULT. Often, you have a multitude of characters of your gender to choose from and a wide variety of games that feature your character as the star and bad-ass of the story.

    This isn’t a matter of LIMITING creativity (since when is adding options LIMITING creativity, anyway), it’s a matter of demanding publishers be MORE creative.

    I’m not some super special snowflake because I’m a gamer who is female. There are lots of gamers who are. I want a product that gives me options.

    Oh and pointing out the shortcomings of a product and demanding they be remedied isn’t making mountains out of molehills or needless internet cacophony or however you want to characterize it. It’s consumers using their voices to encourage publishers put out a product they will consume.

    Literally the only reason to have a problem with it is because you’re sexist. Because why else would someone want to deny this option to players? It’s not taking away from story (unless you’re sexist), and, as has already been pointed out, it doesn’t cost more (unless you’re both sexist and so self centered as to insist that ALL the available characters must be of your gender).

    #16 11 months ago
  17. Joe Musashi

    People are despicable. Watching them use [important cause] as a platform for their name-calling, gross generalisation (I’m aware of the irony), utter intolerance, lack of empathy and toxic sensibilities is stomach-churning and does considerably more harm than good to whichever cause they claim to be serving.

    JM

    #17 11 months ago
  18. DeVitowned

    /facepalm

    So much bickering, pointless bickering over something as the lack of playing a female character in a game. Don’t like it, don’t buy it. Want to make a game where you can play as a woman? Make a game where you can play as a woman. Find a game more suited to your desires. Forget this one exists.

    So much damn self-righteousness on the internet by these white knights, or “keyboard warriors.” Such an undeserved and delusional sense of entitlement that these artists have to cater to your personal desires. This is their game, their vision, their art and their choice. You don’t have to like it, but you need to respect it.

    Sure, there is a bit of sexism in the industry, just as there is in literature, movies, corporation, religion, etc. Yet you people want to throw such vitriol at each other over a fucking game.

    #18 11 months ago
  19. YoungZer0

    @Djoenz

    Nobody is bothered by Brenna’s opinion, even if she purposefully choose an ignorant one. The problem were her insulting and at times sexist comments.

    I think it’s pretty clear that no male writer would be getting away with writing shit like „Give me your female tears!“

    Some people just need to check their privilege.

    @Jerykk

    „Implementing a female player character is not trivial. You need a new character model, a new rig, a new set of animations, female versions of each piece of armor (or unique pieces that are female-only), new VOs, etc. All of these things take time and thus, money.“

    But people don’t want to hear the truth, better call each and everyone involved in the project a sexists piece of shit. Much easier than accepting that you can’t have it all.

    #19 11 months ago
  20. polygem

    @Dragon: so “opinions are just that opinions” but if it´s not your opinion it´s an “over-blown reaction and subsequent attempt(s) at projecting (…) opinions as some gospel truth.”

    there you have it, finally! this is what you should analyze first. you´re making progress. not there yet though, not there yet.

    #20 11 months ago
  21. polygem

    @Dragon: “Great language, bravo. Just shows your really awesome communication skills.
    Again, glad I am not like you :lol:”

    goood, gooood, this also shows YOUR “communication” “skills” perfectly fine….it´s getting warmer….

    #21 11 months ago
  22. polygem

    @DeVitowned
    i personally believe whenever you see sexism, racism etc. it´s the best to call it out. that´s not making a drama out of it. it´s just people calling it out and saying that they disagree. more should do it whenever they can. always. in every situation. all the time. only then things can change. it´s that simple really.

    #22 11 months ago
  23. polygem

    “”"Adding a playable female character after all the other characters have been completed would increase costs, but planning to make half of the 12 available characters female from the start? You budget for it and then do it, you don’t worry about cost.
    The industry as a whole is sexist.”"”

    let me add some more sexism right here. female characters cost them more to create. all the details of the butt and boob textures plus the extra lighting and water effects….female capcom characters cost twice as much to develop as male ones .

    :)

    #23 11 months ago
  24. mongbatstar

    @polygem You forgot to factor in the time the male devs working on the female characters would take off to ogle their female models during development.

    Remember, they’re all misogynists who can’t help themselves.

    #24 11 months ago
  25. Dragon

    I feel I deserve some credit for not entertaining childish insulting baits, and preventing this from being another 100+ comments thread of needless bickering :lol:

    Food for thought , is everything is black and white, pro or against, friend or enemy? Do people really feel their [insert holy cause here] necessitates taking it to the extreme, not allowing anything else that doesn’t coincide with their utopian vision?
    That spirit is admirable if shown in right place and in a right way.

    Hopefully some people here realise its just fiction, not real life.

    #25 11 months ago
  26. YoungZer0

    @polygem

    You realize you don’t have to write for comments in a row, just to reply to someone?

    @Dragon

    You do, bravo for keeping up a stiff upper lip!

    #26 11 months ago
  27. polygem

    @Dragon

    let me quote some random text you just spitted out:

    “What I don’t agree with is this needless social propaganda how any creative work somehow diminishes something just because it doesn’t validate the utopian views of feminist/any other group. Justifying your personal opinion that you need a female character to like a game by making hyperbolic statements about sexism in industry is just needless. It just reeks of a superiority complex shown quite often here by “I hope people are like me” Wulf.”

    people disagreeing with you are spreading propaganda, their opinion is needless anyway, utopian too obviously, just hyperbolic statements, (needless one more time, just in case someone didn´t get it yet), people are having a superiority complex (of course! they disagree with you, they must be mental), then you finish it all off with a shameless lie and passive agressive personal insult…….then you complain about others painting everything black and white in your last post.

    it speaks for itself. you definitely deserve some credit.

    #27 11 months ago
  28. silkvg247

    I don’t think Brenna’s original article was in the best taste but nor do I deny that there were actual truths in it.

    I can see she’s riled up a lot of commenters here, as they’re being even more asinine than usual.. ;) but responding to the core issue by pretending that there isn’t a problem when there clearly is.. dunno.. seems silly. Ignorant even.

    I’ll post my thoughts again because I feel in light of Brennas violent attempt to make people see the picture, I have to offer a more rational view (and also because my posts keep getting lost in spam):

    http://silkwp.wordpress.com/2013/03/30/gaming-what-is-sexism-anyway/

    Boys. If you can do me one favour then at least try to imagine the roles being reversed, being a minority, having 9 out of 10 games not even include your gender. Having women tell you how ridiculous you’re being just for wanting to feel included in a hobby you enjoy. Watching as the industry does nothing about it, and in some cases gets worse.

    Is it really a mountain out of a molehill if you look at the underlying issue? I’d say it’s quite a damning issue to have devs completely write a gender out of their game to “save costs” instead of making any effort to embrace the female market. It’s very self defeating of them, and it hurts the industry. OUR industry, the one we the gamers love so much.

    And I’m not going to get involved with nonsensical arguments about story driven single player games because we’re all fine with those games having set roles and set genders.

    Multiplayer games, where you have some form of character choice, are the hot topic. And though it was a shit PC port, I still say bravo to COD Ghosts.. may it be the first of many. It’s amazing how the ground didn’t open up and swallow us whole, or that the immersion of the game wasn’t broken in any way shape or form, just because they added females.

    #28 11 months ago
  29. Dragon

    @YoungZer0,
    Thanks!

    #29 11 months ago
  30. Bejito81

    The game industry is sexiest and way much more if we believe what we read.
    Then why not complain to get female version of Ryu, then also oversize version of Ryu and on top of that female oversize version of Ryu, but we are missing the skinny, the emo, the trans, the homo, ……
    yeah so for any playable character created in any game the developers should let us decide everything about him/her/it, so we can chose sex, weight, body shape, color, religion, sexual preferences, ……, who cares if it takes 10 times longer to create a game
    If you really think that, then I sorry for you, but video games are not something for you and you’d better go out and get a life

    #30 11 months ago
  31. Bejito81

    I have a good one for you, is the bird in Flappy bird a male or a female bird?
    do you need a female bird to be happy? does is change the game?
    do you now many girls who complain because it is Super Mario and not Super Peach?

    I guess the game would have been way more funny with a Mrs Universe Peach going to the rescue of the little Mario
    but then, hey, think about it, Browser should be replaceable by Browserlita, the Evil Woman dinosaur like monster who captured Mario

    #31 11 months ago
  32. Legendaryboss

    Okay i wasn’t planning to contribute to this topic but might as well. If your not going to buy a game because a certain gender is not present or at the helm of the game then my word!

    You don’t see me refusing to play Assassin’s Creed 3 Liberation because its as a female, you don’t see me complaining when TLOU switched us to Ellie, oh girl: me no likey. Remember Me, Tomb Raider, TLOU, Assassin’s Creed, Beyond Two Souls, Resident Evil, Skullgirls etc. etc. They all had Women predominantly at the helm or a primary focus, AFAIK one game even excluded males. Games like Saint’s Row offer you a choice to either. You do not see this amount of controversy on the other side and if you did, then this would at the very least have been justified but it isn’t.

    This is completely similar to the MGS & Quiet controversy, everyone bats an eye a somewhat clothed individual but somehow a completely nude individual in a previous game is overlooked.

    Are these choices weird? Yes. Is the controversy one-sided? Yes. But to actually refuse purchasing a game because of if? Non-sense.

    #32 11 months ago
  33. Legendaryboss

    @Legendaryboss Edit: You should have no problem playing the virtual characters you have been given, because its just that: virtual life. It has absolutely no significance in the greater scheme of things and shouldn’t impact you. Because these types of choices don’t affect me either way.

    #33 11 months ago
  34. silkvg247

    @Bejito81 Everyone on this planet is male or female. You exclude one of those two, you half your market. Body shape, size, colour etc. are all extra “fluff”. The primary, important, and often missing choice, is gender. By excluding female avatars, it is literally like we’re pretending that the human race, as a whole, is Male. I don’t think a blonde male player will get upset if the only hair options are brown, red and black.. but he might find it odd if he can only pick a female avatar. At least TRY to play scenarios out like that in your head because it’s exactly where we are coming from on this matter.

    Nobody is talking about changing single player / set NPCs in any way shape or form. We are discussing multiplayer avatars, which are freeform and generally supposed to represent the player themselves rather than a pre-set story character in the game univese.

    #34 11 months ago
  35. silkvg247

    @Legendaryboss k. Now list the multiplayer games that are primarily female with their character selection, since that’s the *actual topic*. Nobody, man or woman, has issues with preset characters in solo game worlds and stories. So please stop changing the subject.

    Skullgirls is the only one on your list with any merit. Congratulations, you found possibly the only game in existence where the roles are actually reversed. Does it annoy you? Imagine if practically every single multi-player game was female only. Digest this please. Use your imagination. Stretch that imagination as far as you dare, and you’ll probably work out that if things were the other way around, the male gamer would be a minority facing the exact concerns we have as women today. “Exclusion=Absence”; by excluding, you don’t attract women, by not attracting women, you don’t have a big enough market to cover the costs of including them. By doing nothing, you keep your market the same.. how is that healthy? How can you or any male gamer here not see this is a problem to the gaming industry as a whole?

    Once again, I wish I had my own games dev team. I wish I had the money. I would be doing everything in my power to grow our market to as many people as possible.

    #35 11 months ago
  36. Joe Musashi

    “By excluding female avatars, it is literally like we’re pretending that the human race, as a whole, is Male.”

    Avatars do not represent the human race. Such thinking is grossly flawed, with only the wildly inappropriate use of the word ‘literally’ serving as a distraction from it.

    JM

    #36 11 months ago
  37. grizzlycake

    @silkvg247 How many genres do this though? You have the shooters a la cod and battlefield that used to exclude women but that’s changing. In fighting games, mmos, mobas, uncharted, rayman, games like left4dead, … all include female characters. Heck shooters of old (like ut) had women too.

    I agree that there’s quite some sexism found in the games industry but I think it’s not be found in the lack of female characters in a few mp games.

    #37 11 months ago
  38. silkvg247

    @Joe Musashi Avatars in games where you play a humanoid character *do* represent the human race. Well, the male side of it anyhow. What would you argue they represent if not human beings?!

    #38 11 months ago
  39. Legendaryboss

    @silkvg247 Changing the subject? This subject has been beated to death but whatevs, i’m not engaging with a list of multiplayer only games with only females. So Skullgirls is the one with merit, it doesn’t bother me and considering there was hardly any controversy on a similar level of controversy this subject has gained and i can only assume i’m not the only one. You want me to imagine if the roles were reversed? I can safely say i still wouldn’t care because its a virtual character, there is no significance. Or do you mean if there was controversy on the male side and hardly none on the female side. If i’m interested in the game i will simply play it, there is no legitimate reason not to.

    Things have been the other way round (not strictly relating to this), and in one case provided it has been worse and the concerns & controversy on the male side is nowhere on the same level as the female side. It’s not a problem, if one side can cope when it happens to them it does not automatically become a problem just because it happens to another side.

    #39 11 months ago
  40. Legendaryboss

    @Legendaryboss Edit: AFAIK I’m certain there are not lot multiplayer F2P games starring only females, so that possibly is a point in your favour.

    #40 11 months ago
  41. Bejito81

    @silkvg247
    well have you read what I wrote about Ryu (from Street Fighter)?
    it is clearly multi player, so if I follow what you’re saying I should be able to play the style I’d like so for example here Ryu style with a character that is how I’d like it to be so male or female then add many more customization

    It is not the case and none ever complained about it

    Now I’m sorry to tell you that your online avatar is not you and in no case should be you, you can make it looks like you if you re given the possibilities and you want so, but in no way should the developers be forced to give you that possibility

    you know that most of the time on multi-players games, females characters are in reality males and most of the females who play multi-players games play as male characters

    So in reality, when developers do females characters it is mostly for male players

    when people say that developers prevent their game to have success with women it is totally false, because MOST of the females do NOT WANT to play as female (the reason is mostly because they don’t want to be harassed by males, but we don’t discuss that here)

    #41 11 months ago
  42. silkvg247

    @Legendaryboss Things have been the other way around only in very isolated cases as per Skullgirls. Can you imagine if those cases weren’t isolated and it was somewhere in the region of maybe three quarters of your game library where your gender wasn’t selectable?

    You’d still buy the game and play it (I do!) but you’d probably feel a bit fed up at never being able to represent something even remotely close to the real you.

    That’s how it feels for me. Rust.. running around as a naked dude. Kinda funny actually, but would be nice to pick my own kind. TFC, then TF2.. no females. Have spent years kicking ass as a male sniper, but always lacked a feeling of belonging. BF and COD pre-ghosts, you don’t get much more masculine.. though hopefully games will follow in Ghosts footsteps as that was a real refreshing moment for me. Having that solider on my screen be a female.. it just makes me happy that I can be a little more myself when I play. It’s a notion you’ll find incredibly hard to understand if you’ve never been in the situation where your gender isn’t selectable.. you’ve never had the absence of the choice, so you can’t really grasp what it’s like. Which is why I’m saying all you can do is imagine everything be fully reversed. If you were the minority.

    To me, as a gamer who will always be a gamer, it isn’t actually that big of a deal.. but it’s absolutely a nice to have, and you guys absolutely do take it for granted hence not “getting it”. The reason I get upset at all is because I want other women to get into games and the kind of decision to exclude females works directly against that.

    #42 11 months ago
  43. Bejito81

    @silkvg247
    following what you’re saying when I play an male orc in a mmo, that means I see myself as a huge green and ugly barbaric male and I want everyone to see me that way

    really? no I play an orc because at that point I want to play that, then later I’ll play a female human archer, then I’ll play a male dwarf defender, then a female elf thief

    if the game was only with male of female character, as long as it is fun I would still play it

    I’m male and most of the time I play female character because their design is nicer, but when I’m not given the choice then I play a male and I do not complain

    on the opposite my girlfriend likes to play a big male when destroying hordes of zombies

    so sexism doesn’t exist in video games anymore, they just make choices they find nice, and if you’re not happy with it, well you can play something else and lose lot of fun

    #43 11 months ago
  44. The Dude

    I think the important thing to remember here, before flying off the handle, is the details of Deep Down are still unknown.

    So: for story related reasons, we have 4 playable character who are all male. It sounds to me like these characters (or perhaps even *character*, singular) are not meant to be mere avatars for the player to project themselves into like an MMO for example. Rather, they are specifically tied to the plot, and therefore non-customisable.

    There’s nothing inherently wrong with this, and I don’t think Capcom would go out of their way to deliberately cut female playable characters out of this game just because “hurr stupid gurls” as the original article by Brenna Hiller (a, while humorous, pretty hypocritical article for more than one reason, I might add) suggests.
    Afterall, previous games from the same company such as Dragon’s Dogma, Power Stone, Resident Evil and Street Fighter feature of healthy roster of playable female characters. History shows us Capcom is not against representing the girls too.

    So relax I say. Deep Down doesn’t seem like a COD, or MMO type of multiplayer, but rather a co-op game with a more single-player, story driven experience. For all we know, the characters could be part of some Game of Thrones “Nights Watch” style brotherhood. Who Knows?

    But that’s my point: let’s just wait and see when they reveal just exactly what the games all about before we start waving fingers.

    #44 11 months ago
  45. silkvg247

    @Bejito81 Actually I’ll play pretty much anything regardless, and I often make my character look as random as possibly, with a mixture of male and female if we’re talking MMOs. As stated above my main concern is that exclusion makes it very difficult to get more women into gaming, and I want to see more women get into gaming (I grew up as basically the ONLY girl I never, ever, who liked games.. very lonely).

    Women currently view gaming as a masculine thing, and having games be male only, just reinforces that. It’s a bad picture to paint since you really want as many players as possible to play / buy your game.

    #45 11 months ago
  46. polygem

    @Legendaryboss

    skullgirls? you mean these female characters?

    http://www.thelatenightgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/skullgirls-roster.jpg

    the sexy nurse
    the goth sexbomb
    the schooluniform babe
    and so on…

    you take that as an example for a game that only has female characters and didn´t piss off male players?

    your next example will be dead or alive then?

    ffs you must be trolling.

    these issues have an impact on real life even if some of you guys aren´t capable of seeing that.

    #46 11 months ago
  47. Legendaryboss

    @silkvg247 It really isn’t an issue for me, a game is a game, a character is a character. But i can respect your viewpoint, which is a good and noble one.

    @Polygem
    I picked it as one of many examples of a game which featured females as a strong lead but this specific one did exclude males. The content of their err characters are irrelevant, the point still stands. I’m comparing the controversies, one of which that had to with a somewhat clothed character. Dead Or Alive had male characters, this isn’t a discussion focused on women’s inappropriate clothing. I’m not trolling, this isn’t a problem and people’s seeing capabilities are different than each other.

    #47 11 months ago
  48. salarta

    Since I’m not feeling particularly like arguing with people this morning, especially after an increase of 40 comments since I went to bed last night, I’m just going to respond to a few.

    @TheWulf Japan has a pretty big problem with treatment of women in general. The “used panties vending machine” thing is just a myth as far as I know, but the fact people readily believe it is a pretty powerful sign of what people expect out of Japan. It’s also the same reason people jokingly treat tentacle porn as synonymous with Japan, and why one of the things people know best about Japan is that groping on shuttles is one of the things women suffer through if they’re in a car with men. What many people DON’T know is that it is or at least was so bad that in some cases, shuttles actually need to have a car dedicated solely to the women just so they can ride without being groped on their way to work.

    It also, incidentally, partly explains why certain writers and directors are still employed at Japanese companies. The culture in Japan is one in which women are mainly valued for either being sexually attractive or for appearances of child-like innocence. I mean, hell, you can look at the “control the boob jiggle” controls of Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 and the “ogle near-naked women simulator” that was Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball and see that.

    The plus side is that I think Japanese companies are becoming increasingly concerned about whether or not they can sell a game outside Japan. And since people are less likely to buy a game outside Japan over exclusion of women or for treating them solely like sex objects or overgrown babies, the companies are needing to shift to an approach that’s more inclusive of Western views of women. It’s essentially putting pressure on them to start treating women better if they want to make money.

    @oedalis According to some people around here, the problems you face magically don’t exist and they’re somehow your fault. :P

    @silkvg247 I don’t think Brenna’s article riled up any more people than usual. I think all these arguments would’ve happened even if Brenna didn’t write the article.

    But here’s the thing. This is a serious issue. There are a lot of people that don’t want it fixed. When they see an article that demands change, and they don’t want change, they rush to wherever the comments are being made in order to try and shout down the person demanding change. The main reason we have so many people arguing around here in opposition to games treating women better is because these people are flocking to “ground zero.” The desire for better treatment of women isn’t at all as controversial as the number of comments and the ferocity of arguments make it look here on VG247. If you take this exact same issue elsewhere, especially to a site that isn’t devoted only to video games, the overwhelming majority will agree that things like Deep Down disallowing a playable female option are wrong and inappropriate.

    Though I must say, I get pretty sick of seeing the kind of desperate and terrible excuses that come out to try and justify obvious sexism.

    #48 11 months ago
  49. Joe Musashi

    @38 They are, in the very loosest term, a representation of the human race.

    They absolutely do not represent the human race.

    And, in either, distinctly different, term – neither is ‘literal’.

    JM

    #49 11 months ago
  50. salarta

    Oh, also, frankly, I don’t think anyone involved on either side of these arguments has a chance in hell of actually coming to agree with what the opposite side has to say. The main reason we’re still arguing at this point is more a matter of representation than debate, to show the commitment each side has to their agenda.

    #50 11 months ago
  51. ignoreLander

    Good Lord in Heaven this is tedious. Someone just gives these little girls what they want so we can stop listening to their incessant squawking. It gives me a headache of the highest order.

    #51 11 months ago
  52. Bejito81

    @silkvg247
    as much as I understand your point and I’d sure like to see Fifa 15 Girl (with only female football teams)

    but the fast is that this all started because some angry female writer decided to make a flaming post because she could not play a female in a barbaric game full of beast and men in heavy armors

    so I really sorry that not more girls are playing video games but I see no proof at all that they’ll make enough money (especially for a free-to-play still only aimed for Japan at this time) to say they got more because they spend way more to give the possibility of playing a female character

    Now if the game sells well (well peeps buy lot of things on it since F2P), perhaps they’ll invest in paid add-on to play female character

    never the less look around most games now give the possibility to play as a girl, and I still don’t see many more girl playing video games, so give me a good reason to have female characters in every games?

    #52 11 months ago
  53. DuckOfDestiny

    They’re all the same person from different times.

    Deep Down: M. Night Shyamalan Edition

    #53 11 months ago
  54. ignoreLander

    @TheWulf

    “….your mindset is probably the kind of mindset that would have supported slavery back in the day….”
    Wow, I though I plumbed the depths the lowest levels of thought, but then TheWulf comes along and completely undermines that expectation.

    This is one for the ages. You are insinuating the following, and I am going to put this in bold so you understand just how mental you are: “Disagreeing with your incredibly infantile and self centered world view is the same as agreeing with slavery”. No different.

    I’m not sorry, but what? And yes, I’m making you look stupid, even though it’s all on you.

    I mean… honestly? …seriously?

    What?

    #54 11 months ago
  55. silkvg247

    @ignoreLander If I read that in a TF2 heavy voice it’s actaully very amusing :)

    #55 11 months ago
  56. Joe Musashi

    @54 Bra-fucking-vo!

    JM

    #56 11 months ago
  57. silkvg247

    @Bejito81 Actually once upon a time ALL multiplayer games had female avatars. I’m talking back in my day, when shooters were shooters and we had none of this health regen nonsense. Quake 2, Quake 3, Unreal Tourney, HLDM. Then HL TFC came along and broke the mould to make it dudes only. About the same time so did CS, and after that COD and BF. Oh well!

    So actually, from an older gamer female POV, I’ve had to watch the industry decline from being pretty much inclusive, to the exact opposite.

    The games industry itself isn’t solely to blame. Gaming doesn’t appeal to women because it’s still portrayed as a smelly, geeky, male dominated world.. the way we portray ourself plays a part, the way we all treat female gamers on-line plays a part. The media plays a part.

    To answer “why SHOULD I include females in my game” it’s more a case of, do you want to try to tap into the female market? I genuinely believe positive advertising would help get women into games. Currently all tv slots, posters, giant cardboard battlefield cutouts, are entirely of men. So the girls will always think.. hey my boyfriend probably would like that. They’re not being led by the advertising to think “maybe this is something I could play” because the marketing department has done nothing to make them believe the product is even relevant to them; and often they *can’t* anyway because the game has no female representation to advertise in the first place!

    This CAN change for the better..

    Look at male cosmetics. Men didn’t buy into the notion that they could wear beauty products at all, because every single advertisement was aimed towards women. This has changed, the advertisers paid an initial up front “cost” to capture a market quite alien to the product.. and this market is now growing steadily. Had they never bothered to try this, make up would still be for women only, and they wouldn’t be on the verge of capturing a much wider audience as they are today (and indeed already have in some states).

    Given the above example, is it really hard to believe what the positive outcome would be of advertising to women? Of having them in the games?

    #57 11 months ago
  58. fu11meta1

    I honestly don’t see why people are getting so angry. Just let a company make their game and if you don’t like, don’t buy it. I had a person tell me that every game should have the option of a female character. I thought that was ridiculous. I imagined if Red Dead Redemption, or Halo had starred a woman. Some games are meant to be written for a certain character. It is their story, written by game companies who have the artistic freedom to write whatever story they want. That being said most people upset over this “sexism” won’t complain about how Mirror’s Edge, or Tomb Raider should’ve had the option to be male.

    #58 11 months ago
  59. Dragon

    @ignoreLander,
    Well, that is the Wulf for ya.
    Also, you would also see here a classic example of people avoiding to say anything against someone who even remotely shares the same viewpoint as them.

    @Silk,
    You know, I think I understood your viewpoint more than anyone else from “the side” you are representing. Kudos for you to make your point without insulting others, which in any case just shows that person has already lost it and hence stoops to insulting others.
    As I said many times earlier, I feel its perfectly fine you don’t buy a game for any reason, in this case having no female characters. Your money, your decision.
    If you like to play as a female character wherever possible, I can understand the frustration you may have, since admittedly, many games emphasize of male protagonist more.
    But where I think you err, is thinking that you are representing a vast community, the entire female gender in this case. That is not the case, not even close. There are many female gamers who don’t have a problem with it, just like many male gamers prefer playing as a female.
    Its the problem everyone who has a different taste has. People complain about lack of JRPGS, lack of females, lack of “their favourite type of anything” and so on. Its fine. But is chiding everyone and everything that doesn’t include your taste fine, especially when the matter is as trivial as a video game? I don’t think so.

    There are many many games with good co-op that include everyone. Almost all monster hunter type games allow very good character making flexibility. So really, you have choice. No one needs to love everything, but cannot people just tolerate and ignore other things, especially in matters as small as this? This isn’t a court ruling against anyone, its just a video game. Play the other one which suits your tastes.

    Variety the spice of life. Never ever will everything confirm with anyone’s tastes or preferences.
    So, what is better, waste hours chiding them, or enjoying things that are to your tastes?

    __________________________________

    I was anticipating someone horribly misinformed and frankly, with signs of dat feeling of cultural superiority to show up and bash Japan. Its rather amusing when criticism of an entire culture and community comes from someone who is a nobody. Maybe Michael was right after all.
    Newsflash, people like different things. All women and men are not same. You ideals of equality isn’t the same as that of others. Your scale of morality differs from others. Its a downright shame when people bash communities just because their preferences differ from them. Its not really different from things like hating islam, hating any other group, or discrimination and lack of tolerance towards belief of others.

    Not everything needs to confirm with your tastes. And nobody, absolutely nobody, is completely right on such issues, and no one need to be. All we can do is live and let live, and tolerate and accept that not everything will be like we want, especially on trivial issues. We aren’t talking law here, we are talking a single video game.

    And that is it from me on this thread. Sorry for such a big wall of text.
    Have a good day everyone!

    #59 11 months ago
  60. PSOCecil

    Apparently, developers aren’t able to make games how they want, without being 100% politically correct anymore. Quite a shame, that they aren’t allowed to make what they want.

    But hey, at least comments are open on THIS post, so that’s progress!

    #60 11 months ago
  61. ignoreLander

    @PSOCecil
    But hey, at least comments are open on THIS post, so that’s progress!
    +1 amigo. Well said.

    #61 11 months ago
  62. Djoenz

    I admit everytime me and my buds played zombie mode in black ops we always asked eachother who’s the bitch? and we kinda laughed about it, but it was just for jokes,

    Sarah Michelle Gellar was the bomb in Vampire Slayer.

    I play Ghosts with a female blonde chick in MP because its refreshing while all my friends chose a male character still.

    COD did the right thing including female chars in zombie mode in black ops and black ops 2 and now Ghosts.

    I say bravo and keep them coming. What I dont want to see is female chars like Quiet in MGS5 thats just ridiculous.

    #62 11 months ago
  63. salarta

    @ignoreLander … Wow. “Little girls,” huh? “Squawking?” I think you just did more to hurt your intended cause than help it.

    @fu11meta1 Because Mirror’s Edge and Tomb Raider follow a singular character in single-player games. Likewise, nobody complains about Assassin’s Creed, Metal Gear Solid, God of War, inFAMOUS, Legend of Zelda, and countless other video games starring male only male characters with no female character options because they are singular characters in single-player games. Deep Down is not a single-player game. Stop acting stupid.

    #63 11 months ago
  64. Tel Prydain

    Silly Capcom – not having a western release won’t stop western complaints. Westerners think the whole industry should revolve around them.

    #64 11 months ago
  65. fu11meta1

    @salarta
    True. You do have a good point. I was mainly getting at the fact that I don’t mind playing as a different gender in video games. But just because it’s multiplayer doesn’t mean it has to feature women. I’d like to see it, but I’m not making the game. I’ll ask that you please refrain from insults.

    #65 11 months ago
  66. Gekidami

    @salarta
    “Likewise, nobody complains about Assassin’s Creed, Metal Gear Solid, God of War, inFAMOUS, Legend of Zelda, and countless other video games starring male only male characters with no female character options”
    You clearly havent seen Tropes Vs Women.

    The thing is, with people like Anita Sarkeesian, Kat Bailey, Patricia Hernandez, Brenna and the like, you just cant take them seriously. They have the most retarded, whinny, nit picky, and obviously fishing for hits/cash opinions around.
    Could more games use female main characters/female character options? Sure. But you have these feminazi, PC keyboard warriors shrieking at the top of their lungs using insults and the dodgy logic, and it just kills any serious discussion. When gamers read Brenna’s horrible piece they dont want to deal with her and cant take the topic seriously. Its just trolling, thats all Brenna did, she trolled.
    And then to add hurt to injury to their cause, fucking censorship. Comments closed, just like Anita Sarkeesian did. Because of people trolling? Maybe? But really any valid counter points also get blocked and these people of course never respond to any criticism. No matter how valid, its always ‘just’ these evil male gamers wanting to keep their “all-boys club”, even if the criticism is from a women.

    #66 11 months ago

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