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Ubisoft creative director: “Piracy’s basically killing PC”

Wednesday, 8 October 2008 09:17 GMT By Patrick Garratt

tomclancyendwar7.jpg

Ubisoft Shanghai creative director Michael de Plater has told VG247 that a PC version of EndWar would most likely be shipping alongside the console SKUs if it wasn’t for rampant PC piracy, and that copyright theft is essentially destroying the PC games market.

“To be honest, if PC wasn’t pirated to hell and back, there’d probably be a PC version coming out the same day as the other two,” he said, talking of the voice-controlled RTS.

“But at the moment, if you release the PC version, essentially what you’re doing is letting people have a free version that they rip off instead of a purchased version. Piracy’s basically killing PC.”

We asked if piracy was the main reason to keep EndWar off PC.

“Yeah, at the time of release,” he said. “You know, the level of piracy that you get with the PC just cannibalizes the others, because people just steal that version.”

De Plater also told us that a PC version is likely to be released further down the line, as reported yesterday.

Tom Clancy’s EndWar does appear to be very good, from what we played of it. Looks as though you’re not going to be leeching a PC version for a while yet, though. You know who you are.

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76 Comments

  1. G1GAHURTZ

    I don’t think that the problem with piracy is limited to the PC. It’s just that it’s a lot more frequent at the moment.

    Most PC gamers know about torrents and downloading stuff for free, whereas most console gamers probably just don’t actually know how easy it is to hack a console and download ripped games.

    I’m pretty sure that if the PC gaming market is “killed”, then console piracy will quite easily sky rocket as those PC gamers look for free software elsewhere.

    #1 7 years ago
  2. Tonka

    Consoles = PC dongles confirmed.

    #2 7 years ago
  3. Whizzo

    I fail to see how releasing a PC version of a game later than a console version is going to do anything to stop it being pirated. It may get gamers with a console and a PC to buy the console version and ignore the PC release but it’s not going to stop the Jolly Rogers being hoisted for those who steal their games.

    It would be nice to know if the game is any good of course but they keep delaying the bloody VIP demo!

    #3 7 years ago
  4. m3nAc3

    This statement about piracy on Pc is becoming regular BS, like an excuse for bad product sales or something… Crytek were the first who attacked piracy, and blamed it for poor Crysis sales. And we all know that wasn’t the case why crysis made a financial flop.
    I hate this kind of statements, it’s like some brain washing, if you repeat a lie 1000 times, eventually it will become a truth… I don’t think so… For God sake, why don’t you ask Stardock how they sold more than a million copies of “Sins of the Solar Emire” without any protection, and before that game was “Galactic Civilizations 2″, also without any protection what so ever… So what’s their explanation?!
    Answer: they made a good game!

    #4 7 years ago
  5. Blerk

    So Crysis wasn’t a good game now? Did I miss a memo?

    #5 7 years ago
  6. Whizzo

    Crysis : first two thirds = good game with rather excessive hardware requirements, last third = shit game with insane requirements (the ice level killed my framerate and was a wanky escort mission too).

    #6 7 years ago
  7. JesteR

    Yes poor developers. It`s not like everyone had illegal copies of C-64 games. Many people back then didn`t even buy 1 original and the companies survived. So this piracy argument is bullshit. Maybe they should lower prices. Fact is they charge more for the console version is because they can.

    #7 7 years ago
  8. G1GAHURTZ

    “Many people back then didn`t even buy 1 original and the companies survived.”

    lol. Back then it only took one person, possibly 3 maximum, to make a game, and they could do it in their spare time.

    These days most mid budget games will cost at least £2 million to develop – MININMUM!

    As for the quality of the games being what makes them sell, then I can’t really picture the scene where some kid comes home from school, turns on his PC and says to himself “I won’t bother downloading [insert AAA game here] because it’s just too good! I’ll wait for Mum and Dad to buy me a copy in a few months time.”

    In fact, I doubt that that’s ever happened.

    #8 7 years ago
  9. Kalain

    YaY, more rubbish being spouted. Hurrah!!

    Funny thing about this PC piracy, when you ask them to bring numbers to the discussion to prove that piracy is killing the PC, they can’t. Sims 2, the most pirated game, is still selling and making EA a fortune. As someone else said, Sins of a Solar Empire selling incredibly well.

    Not releasing a PC version at the same time as the console versions is also a factor in, what people are saying, killing PC gaming as everyone with a console and a PC will buy the console version first. So his remarks are utter rubbish.

    This isn’t because of Piracy, this is because the have probably been told by M$ and $ony to do this so that the console games get more visibility than the PC ones.

    #9 7 years ago
  10. Shatner

    “Funny thing about this PC piracy, when you ask them to bring numbers to the discussion to prove that piracy is killing the PC, they can’t”

    You want them to produce accurate figures of sales they didn’t have? And you’re supposing that because they can’t accurately track sales that didn’t happen then it must all be a fallacy?

    Hello? Logic?

    Gamers running anecdotal evidence suggesting Piracy is practically a non event or has no significance on the market as a whole going up against publishers and developers who will have financial forecasts, costs and understanding of the economics of game development is just too funny to be taken seriously. These apologist arguments usually come from people who indulge in pirated software who want to believe they’re doing no wrong or, even more amusingly, are a victim of someone else’s greed.

    Additionally, the notion that “good games sell, bad games don’t” is so wonderfully naive that anyone who believes it should have a chat with Ensemble, Iron Lore and Clover.

    By contrast with most of the comments here, Tonka is bang on the money.

    #10 7 years ago
  11. Psychotext

    Kalain: M$ and $ony conspiracy you say? How insightful.

    #11 7 years ago
  12. bugmenot

    Yeah, sure, because consoles aren’t pirated to hell and back.

    Make good games, they’ll sell.

    What an idiot.

    #12 7 years ago
  13. G1GAHURTZ

    “Sims 2, the most pirated game, is still selling and making EA a fortune.”

    It’s selling loads because it’s being bought by people who don’t generally pirate: casual gamers.

    In fact, the point that you make kind of highlights the problem of piracy on PC.

    Some of the best selling PC games these days are aimed at the casual market, because the people who buy them are not likely to be tech savvy enough to know how to pirate them.

    Some of the most underachieving games are games that hardcore gamers are more likely to play. Games like Crysis that your typical high end PC upgrader wants in order to show off his hardware. People who play these games are the kind of people who have the know-how to pirate a game before the thing is even released, and it’s these people who are being referred to as killing PC gaming.

    Just look at the success of the Wii. It’s been astronimical in comparison to anything in the history of the games industry, and it’s the casual gamers who are buying it.

    Most game devs do want to make casual games for 13 year old girls and 35 year old Mums just to make money. They want to make games that they want to play, such as COD4, Crysis, Endwar and whatever else.

    They want to make games for real gamers, hardcore gamers, but practically the only way that they can do that and still make a profit these days is on console.

    #13 7 years ago
  14. scuz

    crysis wasn’t a good game.

    it was a tech demo just like far cry.

    #14 7 years ago
  15. G1GAHURTZ

    Well it’s got a metacritic score of 91 from 56 reviews, so it must be a very good tech demo…

    #15 7 years ago
  16. Whizzo

    Crytek make really good games that turn rubbish when they add monsters/aliens into the mix. Hopefully their next FPS creation has no non-human enemies and it should be 100% awesome rather than 66%.

    #16 7 years ago
  17. m3nAc3

    @shatner: “good games sell, bad games don’t” – you think naive?, I think insightful! Tell me something, did you ever heard of Stardock complaining about piracy on PC?, or Bioware, or Activison, or Valve, or Blizzard??? And all of them have become giants of the industry because of great games they made, and most of it was for Pc only.
    I agree that piracy is bigger on Pc than on consoles, that’s a fact. But it’s not such a big factor in selling of video games as some publishers want to make it. Existence and success of the publishers I mentioned above are the living proof of that.

    Make a great game, and people will love it, and buy it. It’s simple as that. There is no other philosophy. In this year I bought COD4 and Mass Effect because for me they are both great games and well worth of my money.

    Someone has said that casual gamers are a big part of the industry and that’s the reason why Sims are best seller on the pc market. And also, that casual gamers don’t have the knowledge to go on torrents and download the game. I totally agree. But, are “Sins of the Solar Empire” game for casual gamers, “Galactic Civilizations 2″, or “COD4″… All three games are played by hard-core gamers, all three were available on torrents, but in spite of that they also made great commercial success… So what’s the explanation for that?!

    #17 7 years ago
  18. David

    Steam FTW that is all

    #18 7 years ago
  19. G1GAHURTZ

    “I totally agree. But, are “Sins of the Solar Empire” game for casual gamers, “Galactic Civilizations 2″, or “COD4″… All three games are played by hard-core gamers, all three were available on torrents, but in spite of that they also made great commercial success… So what’s the explanation for that?!”

    First of all, what is a “great commercial success”? It’s not really wise for either of us to comment on the sales of these games without knowing the exact figures, but what is possible to say is that you can almost guarantee that the console version of COD4 definitely made more money than the PC version. Why? because of piracy! This is the burning issue, not whether or not an RTS sells 100,000 copies without copy protection.

    In any case, RTS’s are pretty much limited to PC’s at the moment purely down to the ease of control over console. Which, I’d be willing to assume, is exactly why Ubisoft have put a lot of effort into getting the control method for Endwar just right.

    So if two PC games out of thousands manage to do well without copy protection, it doesn’t change that fact that PC developers KNOW that they are missing out on the money that their console counterparts are making.

    #19 7 years ago
  20. Shatner

    Hey m3nAc3, why don’t you go speak to Ensemble. They made million selling games too.

    Oh? What’s that? You’ll conveniently ignore the developers I mentioned that made award winning, standard-setting games that are now closed and out of business due to DAMAGED SALES?

    Oh righty then. Well, I guess when you carefully overlook any details that might contradict your guesswork (I don’t see you actually giving me a demonstration of development costs, pricing structures, retail sell-through and so forth – you just quote a few big names – the exceptions, not the rule – and hope I’ll be convinced) then you can keep preaching your sermon to anyone else blinkered enough to believe it.

    Additionally, declaring something a “great commercial success” when you have no figures available to you, no units sold, no profit margin, no investment details – that’s just posturing. Even if something sells 10 million units. If it’s making a loss each time it’s not a commercial success is it? Without knowing detailed costs and margins you can’t possibly be qualified to make such a declaration.

    Tell me, what financial data and market research are you basing your “Piracy isn’t a problem” argument on?

    Wow, in your world piracy must be GREAT! Or maybe GR8.

    You’d better hurry up and speak to Ensemble though. Microsoft are closing them down. I guess it MUST mean Halo Wars will be shit and a poor seller!

    /facepalm

    #20 7 years ago
  21. Goronmon

    “It’s not really wise for either of us to comment on the sales of these games without knowing the exact figures, but what is possible to say is that you can almost guarantee that the console version of COD4 definitely made more money than the PC version. Why? because of piracy!”

    Umm…the console version of CoD4 sold a lot more because the market for consoles is much bigger than PCs. Spouting that as proof that piracy is a big problem is just ignorance.

    “Tell me, what financial data and market research are you basing your “Piracy isn’t a problem” argument on?”

    What financial data and market research are you basing your “Piracy is a problem on” argument on? You can’t state that as a fact without some proof the the revenues generated by game sales has been actively harmed by piracy. I have yet to see any proof.

    No one has proof either way. Those proclaiming piracy is a big deal with throw around some marginally useful statistic like the number of users on torrents. Those claiming piracy isn’t a big deal can point to developers that seem have gotten around the issue entirely.

    #21 6 years ago
  22. m3nAc3

    You wanted numbers – okey, here you go, enjoy:
    http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/09/05/solar-empire-moves-500-000-units
    - ohhh, oo my, it an a exception, only 500 000 units sold without any protection what so ever…

    You mentioned something about 10 million units, oh, here we are:
    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=190220

    Check this:
    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=186918
    - oh my, another exception…

    What about this:
    http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/36952/The-Orange-Box-1-5-Million-Console-Sales-Significantly-More-On-PC

    …and so on, and so on…

    Some other views about http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512

    So what is our conclusion here, it’s hard to make a good game, even harder to make a great game… Great games, if you want look at it that way, were always been a exception, and always will be. But that’s how the world is. There is only one Harley Davidson, there is only one Fallout, and there is only one Baldur’s Gate. In those times piracy was also an issue, but you didn’t here any complaints from developers. Because the sales will always be good to the people that can make a quality product. For all times quality will always be the major factor in buying something, and satisfied customers will always be the best messengers.

    p.s. @shatner: I didn’t conveniently ignored your arguments, I just don’t know who Ensemble guys are… :) I presume they made Halo, but I don’t care. I play Pc games only. And also, I never said that piracy isn’t a problem, I just said that It’s not such a BIG problem as some of the publishers are saying…

    #22 6 years ago
  23. Shatner

    It’s not necessary to prove someone’s revenue is hurt by the theft of their produce, it’s common sense.

    The article makes a statement declaring piracy is harmful. If you dispute that then the burden of proof is on you as you’re the one opposing the original statement.

    But again, we’re back to people claiming that if they can’t see sales figures for games that aren’t sold or can’t see accurate tracked data for piracy (like that’s ever going to happen for any ‘underground’ movement) then piracy cannot possibly be an issue. It’s a dependancy on fractured logic and bluff.

    If you’re unable to get your head around the concept and effect of theft then I have only one thing to say to you:

    Can I borrow £20? :P

    #23 6 years ago
  24. G1GAHURTZ

    Umm…the console version of CoD4 sold a lot more because the market for consoles is much bigger than PCs. Spouting that as proof that piracy is a big problem is just ignorance.

    LOL

    There are hundreds of millions of PC’s (including gaming PC’s) in the world fella (as opposed to a measly 20-30 million next-gen consoles!). The potential for the PC Gaming market dwarfs that of anything that any console could hope for, Wii included.

    When you look at markets like China, the potential for PC gaming sales is totally immense, and it’s already massive, even now.

    To say that the console market is bigger than the PC market is just plain wrong.

    If you want proof of piracy harming sales figures, the ONLY proof you need are the big developers leaving PC development, either totally, or making it an after-thought, and switching to consoles.

    That speaks for itself

    See this for more proof!:

    “Mark Rein, VP of Epic Games, recently told GTdaily a similar story to that of Crytek’s Mr. Yerly. Epic’s Unreal Tournament 3 servers received over 40 million attempts at illegitimate access using pirate keys (keys are the serial codes need to install the game and play it online). These games cost $50 each, and like with Crysis… these millions of potential buyers (or at least interested gamers) for Unreal Tournament 3 also had the option to try a free Unreal Tournament 3 demo, you know, instead of stealing years someone else’s hard work. I suppose this shift from PC to console game releases is a natural one for developers like Crytek and Epic. Epic has been taking this approach for a while now by shipping Unreal Tournament 3 for the PC and the PS3, which increased sales of the game to 1.2 million worldwide.”

    #24 6 years ago
  25. m3nAc3

    @shatner: OMG… no one sane enough would claim that piracy isn’t harmful. Of course it is.
    Grand theft auto is also harmful (i don’t mean the game:-)), but cars do sell in Eastern Europe where the percentage of stolen cars is the biggest…
    Cod 4 and the Crysis came out on the market almost in same month. COD 4 did great on market, Crysis didn’t. Crytek claimed that the because of piracy they didn’t had any bigger commercial success. And so I ask again, why did Crytek had a problem with piracy, and Acitvision (or Infinity Ward) didn’t?

    #25 6 years ago
  26. Kalain

    Psychotext: and how many times have you read where MS and Sony have paid a developer to produce a game just for their console? I know a few people who developed PGR and where paid a bucket load by MS to keep it Xbox. This is just an evolutionary step to keep console sales higher than PC sales, therefore, reinforcing that the game was Pirated on the PC.

    Shatner: Maybe numbers was the wrong word, more like actual research evidence instead of blasting out the same old line over and over again. Oh yeah, I have several friend who enjoy playing Halo 3 and haven’t paid for it, along with all of their other 360 games a well.

    G1GAHURTZ: I agree with what you are saying there, but, case in point, the most successful game is the most pirated. It doesn’t matter if a game is aimed at casual or hardcore players, it’s going to an audience who wants it. I know several hardcore players who only play the Sims, so are they casual? The point is, piracy hasn’t hurt the sales of the Sims in anyway.

    Again, going back to what I said above, where is the research and the results from said research which proves that piracy is having such a profound effect on the sales of games.

    Anyway, I’m probably not dong a good job here but I’m sure the guys at RPS are doing a better job. Go read what they have to say here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/10/08/endwar-delayed-because-piracys-killing-pc/

    #26 6 years ago
  27. charmers

    Well for a starters what does the closure of Ensemble have to do with piracy ? As far as I am aware Microsoft closed them down in an effort to reduce costs so they could afford to lop another 50 bucks off the xbox 360. I could be wrong but since you are making the claim that Ensemble is a victim of piracy I believe the burden of proof is on you.

    Just because the article makes a statement does not remove it from the burden of proof. If an article makes such a statement it should be backed up with facts and figures. As far as I can see they have provided no proof and are just stating the usual party line of “piracy is killing the PC” rubbish to justify their lack of any effort they put into the PC market.

    When a PC game gets held back that is the reason for sales suffering. You just need to look to the example of the orange box, a game that sold very well on the 360 and PC but when it was launched some months later on the PS3 didn’t do all that well. I believe it will be the same with Bioshock on the PS3, I can’t see that doing incredibly well with it being over a year after the 360 and PC version. Hm I wonder why that is ? Is it perhaps the fact people already BOUGHT the game for the console since they weren’t prepared to wait.

    We already know the real reason why they delay games for the PC and it has nothing to do with piracy and more to do with Microsoft. They are on record as saying that if the PC version is released at the same time as the console version then copies of the console version suffer because people would rather buy the game for the PC. So they only way that the consoles can compete with the PC is to take the PC out of the equation all together.

    So is piracy killing the PC industry ? nope admittedly it isn’t helping the PC industry what is killing the PC industry is developers like Ubisoft whoring themselves to Microsoft.

    @G1GAHURTZ that story regarding 40 million hits was a blatant lie and Mark Rein even confirmed it was a lie :-

    http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/05/05/rein-strikes-red-line-through-40-million-utiii-pirates-story/

    “Epic VP Mark Rein has confirmed that a story claiming he said Unreal Tournament III’s PC servers had been hit by 40 million pirated keys is incorrect.

    “I don’t recall saying that particular number,” he said, speaking to videogaming247.

    “We’ve certainly had lots of invalid attempts to access our servers and piracy is definitely a problem in our industry but I don’t know where that particular number came from.”

    #27 6 years ago
  28. Psychotext

    Kalain: They’re paid a load to make exclusive games so that platform holders have differentiators to attract new customers and so that income is increased (licensing cut). They obviously need to be paid because they’re going to lose out on the sales they would have got from the other platforms.

    It doesn’t necessarily (or likely) follow that MS and Sony would pay developers to say that PC gaming is in trouble because of piracy. Sales for most games show that anyway.

    G1GAHURTZ had it right when he said that the games that do well on the PC are the ones that you either can’t pirate (WoW) or appeal to people that generally don’t pirate (Sims).

    #28 6 years ago
  29. m3nAc3

    So what about music industry?! You don’t see many musicians as homeless do you now? And we all know how much illegal downloads goes on to the music albums, songs etc.

    Nintendo 64 had almost perfect protection against piracy – cartridge. On the other side you had Playstation with cd games. And cd is so easy to copy isn’t it…

    So why didn’t Sony speak out against piracy then?! Maybe because they didn’t want to, maybe sony was implicated in making that fantastic piracy chip which allowed you to play copied cd games… Maybe…

    The result was that Nintendo 64 was history.
    In this case, you don’t need to be a genius to see that piracy actually helped Sony to be what it is today in video games industry…

    #29 6 years ago
  30. G1GAHURTZ

    @ Kalain:
    Like I said before. The real proof that piracy is having such an effect on PC gaming is the indisputable fact that developers are abanding PC and going to console.

    Even though the PC market should be bigger.

    You don’t need any more proof than that. If there was nothing wrong with the PC market, then companies like Epic and Crytek would stick to doing what they do best, which is making PC games.

    I mean, lets face the simple facts. When someone downloads a copy of COD4, they aren’t spending $50/£30.

    Which means that the people who made the game are losing money.

    So even if you take it at it’s lowest currency, then just say 300,000 illegal copies of COD4 were downloaded, then that’s $15 MILLION!

    That’s no chump change.

    Even if only a fraction of those 300,000 would have bought the game anyway, it’s still a considerable sum of money down the drain.

    All that any PC developer has to do is look at figures like those and say, ‘you know what, $15,000,000 could fund the next two versions of our game. Forget the PC, were switching to console.’

    It’s as simple as that.

    @ charmers:

    OK, fair enough, so the number is wrong (it did seem a little wild anyway…) but the reality is that the point still holds. Any PC developer who tracks their game data after release will tell you that the number of people playing the game will always be higher than the number of copies sold.

    #30 6 years ago
  31. Shatner

    The point of mentioning Ensemble is that they’re responsible for a series of extremely highly regarded PC exclusive games that have sold big numbers (million+). The point was that our friend m3nac3 should speak to them with regards to the effects of piracy and how it affects the revenues for PC titles. M3nac3 doesn’t seem to keen to speak to any developers other than his cherry-picked ones that ‘prove’ (to him at least) that piracy isn’t an issue.

    The closure of (another) good studio just happens to be coincidence. But there’s an insinuation that bad games don’t sell and developers close as a result. The fact is, bad games DO sell. They sell astonishingly well. And a game being good isn’t enough for it to sell (Psychonauts? Okami? Beyond Good and Evil?).

    To assume that quality is the sole measure of commercial success is to discount marketing, pricing and a huge array of economical and commercial factors. All this just to suggests “good games sell” is the beginning and end of the argument of commercial success.

    And, as mentioned before, selling is one thing, profiting is another.

    The myriad of factors involved in grasping the financial ebb and flow of an entire industry is pretty daunting. Anyone attempting to boil it down to “good stuff sells good” is only demonstrating the limitations of their own comprehension.

    Stuff like WoW or any subscription based service can be profitable because they’re difficult to play illegitimately. Even then, there’s a huge amount of MMOs that don’t break even.

    Steam is a very nicely disguised DRM system. And as Tonka also pointed out, that’s all what consoles are too. The appeal of PSN/XBL download only games with less investment and less risk of piracy are the sweetest spot in game development at the moment.

    You’ll see more and more ways of disguising DRM in order to stave off piracy in the future.

    #31 6 years ago
  32. charmers

    The same could equally be said for the consoles, there are more people playing the game than bought the game. You just need to look at the 360 and see it is heavily pirated, I will admit not as much as the PC but there is still a massive piracy scene on the 360. Then there are game rentals how many console gamers just rent there games ? That is a problem that effects both the 360 and PS3. Strange how we hardly hear about all this though isn’t it … oh no all we ever hear is the PC is doomed because of Piracy.

    Now to the almighty of games COD 4, here is a clue for you a lot of people didn’t actually think it was any good. I played the demo and thought it was pathetic and would only be worth paying a budget price of £15 for 5 hours of single player gaming (I find multiplayer boring). Now could it be the fact the single player aspect of the game was pathetically short or was it down to piracy that the game lost sales ? We will never know, meanwhile I am still waiting for COD 4 to drop to a budget price level, nearly a year later. I do know this many COD 2 players hate COD 4 it is too arcadey and dumbed down for their tastes. So you have to wonder what was the REAL reason for the poor sales of COD 4, naturally publishers and developers will blame piracy before blaming their own product.

    Now lets look at the Orange box a title that outsold both the ps3 and 360 versions on the PC. Even though Episode 2 was incredibly short there was so much crammed in that people felt like they were getting a bargain and quite happily paid the $40 for it. So what is valve doing right that ubisoft aren’t doing ? Maybe it’s because valve offer games that are WORTH the money and offer a delivery system that people WANT to use and first and foremost Valve focus their gaming on the PC first and foremost.

    But then I guess that is too much work for Ubisoft isn’t it, it’s much easier for them to blame piracy and provide crappy ports that don’t run all that well and have dumbed down gameplay that doesn’t appeal to PC gamers then when the game bombs hey we can blame it on piracy. The laughable thing about it all though is some people actually fall for it.

    #32 6 years ago
  33. m3nAc3

    @shatner:
    can you tell me where did I said that “quality is the sole measure of commercial success” … or DID I said it was a “major factor”?! Witch ISN’T the same! So stop twisting someones words to prove that your right. That’s lame dude…

    You said that I cherry-picked developers? Like Activison, Bioware, Blizzard, Valve are some little developers that no one knows… What kind of argument is that? And speaking of arguments you don’t have any proof what so ever that Ensemble was closed because of piracy… Did YOU asked them?

    If you are so sure that piracy is the main factor of low sales on pc market, or any market, answer me this:

    1. Cod 4 and the Crysis came out on the market almost in same month. COD 4 did great on market, Crysis didn’t. Crytek claimed that the because of piracy they didn’t had any bigger commercial success. And so I ask again, why did Crytek had a problem with piracy, and Acitvision (or Infinity Ward) didn’t?

    2. Why Nintendo 64 is history? (they had perfect piracy protection)

    3. Why there is no homeless musicians?

    4. Why did Bioware sold every Rpg game they made in millions of units?

    If for Blizzard/Vivendi (Vivendi = Activison), the biggest publisher on the world, is PC market good, than that’s enough for me. Same goes for Bioware (they hold 90% RPG games on PC), and Stardock. They are not exceptions, they very big portion of PC market today. And that’s a fact!

    #33 6 years ago
  34. Esha

    I don’t mind this attitude so much, to be honest.

    The reason why I don’t is because those games really are suited more to consoles, the future of the PC lies with indie devs. Despite some claims, it’s not true that games need a huge amount of people or big budgets to make them. It’s doubly not true that a good game needs these things, and games like World of Goo, along with brain-mulchy stuffs released by companies like Caravel Games and Spiderweb Software prove that big companies aren’t needed for great games.

    This is probably a good thing, because it means that the requirements for games on the PC can be scaled back, and those with older machines can run them. It also means that other OSes will become better supported, as many indie developers are making games for Mac and Linux as much as they are for Windows now. It’s not hard for them to put together a Linux build, and they’ve said so themselves.

    So then what we have at the end is something that really is much akin to the tech-hippie love-in we had with home computers back in the day. Consoles can push the boundaries, and they can have better hardware included with each generation. This means that the hardware arms race can be left to the console manufacturers, and graphics can be pushed to the limit and shown at their best on bloody humongous HD televisions, something that the humble monitor could never match up to.

    I don’t know if this is the way it’s actually going to go, though.

    But I’m hoping, and with numerous people backing Ubuntu, Google releasing their own Linux distro, and bunches upon bunches of indie developers going from strength to strength, that could well be the future of PC gaming as we know it. With only the occasional crappy port thrown the PC’s way, which we can all merrily ignore in favour of the better casual/indie offers that’ll be available.

    To be honest, whenever I see that piracy is a reason for not making a PC release, I think that’s absurd. When I see that, I see it as the developer plaintively stating in a most pitiable way that they wish to leave the PC behind. And if that’s the case then let them. The PC can survive without them, but all this excuse making about why the PC isn’t a viable platform is only going to make them more and more unpopular with those who own consoles and a PC. They should just go their own way and be decisive about that without feeling the need to explain it and apologise for it.

    Again, sorry for being an opinionated windbag.

    As far as things go though… on the PC, the title I’ve been looking forward to most this year is World of Goo, and on the PS3 it’s more stuff like Mirror’s Edge, LittleBigPlanet, and so on. And it’s not due to the lack of hardware either, as at the moment I have a particularly butch gaming laptop but… I’m thinking that this time I might just let it slip, and not just jump into the next generation of hardware which’ll come along within the next year or so. I don’t see the reason to really update PC hardware all that much currently anyway, considering the games I’m looking forward to.

    And I still find it funny that one of the better selling PC titles this year was Audiosurf.

    But yeah… time to wrap this up, as I’ve already made an essay out of this post now.

    #34 6 years ago
  35. Goronmon

    “There are hundreds of millions of PC’s (including gaming PC’s) in the world fella (as opposed to a measly 20-30 million next-gen consoles!). The potential for the PC Gaming market dwarfs that of anything that any console could hope for, Wii included.”

    I’m not sure I understand your “including gaming PCs”. Exactly what other kind of PCs are useful to include in this discussion? I have 2 computers here at work. Neither of which will ever see a game played on them. There are, I believe, 4 working computers at my parent’s house. Only one of those plays a game, and one game at that, WoW. Want to know why? Because the only game my mom has ever wanted to play on the PC has been either WoW or Solitaire.

    The only reason the PC market sells as much as it does is because of the casual games like Sims games and WoW. Those sell so much not because they aren’t pirated, but because the number of people who would play a game like the Sims or WoW is much larger than people who are interested in playing CoD4.

    So tossing around numbers like “hundreds of millions” is pointless since you can’t draw any direct connection between the number of PCs that exist and the number of PCs being used to play games like CoD4. That same lack of connection doesn’t exist for the consoles.

    #35 6 years ago
  36. G1GAHURTZ

    I was simply pointing out that the potential of the PC market is much bigger than what the console market has to offer.

    I was responding to a claim that the console market was bigger than the PC gaming market, which is simply untrue.

    There are also console games like the xbox LIVE arcade games that could probably run on a 10 year old PC, so the technical demands of the game weren’t in question.

    If I released solitaire 2, I wouldn’t want to put it on any of the consoles. It wouldn’t need a gaming PC to run on either.

    I could sell this game for 1p per copy and I’d make way more than I would developing a AAA console game for £4-5 million over 18-24 months.

    If you personally don’t play games on any of your PC’s then you can believe that there are many people who do, so I don’t think that your ‘well my Mum and me don’t do it’ point really works.

    Anyway, the point was that if you’re a developer that want’s to be the best and make the most money, the real figures say that you can make an easy “killing” on the PC, but the real-life facts say that you’re actually more likely to make more money on console when it comes to non-casual games.

    #36 6 years ago
  37. strike101

    Maybe someone should teach him how to search for games at a torrent site , type xbox360 in the search for torrents field….

    piracy is an issue… but not the main issue… crappy DRM , bad port of the game , lack of advertisements

    and the main cause of low pc sales ? pc version arriving half a year later… when the console version already sold millions….

    #37 6 years ago
  38. Esha

    @Giggy

    “If you personally don’t play games on any of your PC’s then you can believe that there are many people who do, so I don’t think that your ‘well my Mum and me don’t do it’ point really works.”

    Did I or did I not say that I have a gaming laptop? My presence has been seen at RPS, which is a purely PC gaming blog. It’d be a bit silly for me to read and participate in such things if I wasn’t a PC gamer.

    So yes, I am a PC gamer. I’ve even posted here about PC games which I’ve played, and yes… I’ve played the pap that the mainstream seems to like, too. (Crysis)

    So, no… that wasn’t my point at all. That was just some completely absurd red herring of a tangent you went off on, assuming that what I was talking about had anything to do with my mother’s gaming desires. So… have fun with that tangent, I’m not going to really argue it because I’m tired of getting into slimy, political-tactics-biased arguments on Teh Internet.

    Just so you understand, though (to put it as simply as possible): My point was primarily that mainstream releases on the PC of late have been pretty much made of suck, and that indie releases have been much more interesting, on the whole.

    I hope that works…

    #38 6 years ago
  39. Shatner

    M3nac3, your insistance that N64 had perfect piracy protection really shows just how poor your grasp is of the scope, issue and widespread problem that piracy had and still has. N64 was blighted with plenty of piracy – enough to put a significant dent in its sales revenue. Go and research the Doctor 64 manufactured by Bung.

    And whilst you steadfastly and consistenly refuse to acknowledge every publisher and developer I mentioned that contradicts your theory that PIRACY IS FAB! I’m sure you’ll not mind if I return the favour in respect of your comical arguments. Go speak to some developers and publishers instead of misquoting and ignoring facts and historical events. Your argument only stands up if others have as little familiarity with the subject matter and mechanics of the industry as you seem to demonstrate.

    Incidentally, I never outright claimed your entire argument was based around the “good games sell bad games don’t” playschool theory. Perhaps you should re-read my post and pay particular attention to the word “insinuation”.

    In fact, paying more attention would probably be my best advice to you. It’s certainly better than choosing to ignore and overlook facts that Pirates don’t like the sound of because if makes them feel a bit uncomfortable with the theft they freely conduct and attempt to justify.

    Zero piracy wouldn’t automatically mean better games. Conversely better games won’t mean zero piracy (quite the opposite) – so that ‘quality’ issue is a massive smokescreen put out by pirates or beneficiaries of pirating to distract from the core issue: pirates are thieves.

    There’s no justification for piracy beyond “I’m not prepared to pay for something so I’d prefer to steal it instead”. In my book, if you’re a pirate, a supporter of piracy or attempting to dismiss the significant harm that piracy does to the industry then you’re all pretty much as dispicable as each other.

    #39 6 years ago
  40. charmers

    Shatner is your name really George Bush ? Because :-

    “In my book, if you’re a pirate, a supporter of piracy or attempting to dismiss the significant harm that piracy does to the industry then you’re all pretty much as dispicable as each other.”

    Sounds an awful lot like “you are either with us or against us”. No one here is defending piracy, nearly everyone here is decrying the crap that is being spouted about piracy. Ubisoft are just another in a long line of developers that use piracy to cover up their own failings. These days companies are very quick to blame piracy on poor sales rather than blame their own shoddy practices and products. Hey it works because people like you believe them.

    I would bet any money they will blame piracy on poor sales of Brother In Arms – Hells Highway. But guess what I am a PC gamer but I am not buying it, wanna know why ? It’s because I am SICK to death of world war 2 games. I don’t expect Farcry 2 to do well either for the simple reason it will be a crap port that will barely be playable on the majority of machines, but I bet any money they will wheel out the piracy excuse YET again. I will of course try the demo if the company decides to bother to do one. If they don’t bother then I won’t bother handing over my hard earned money to them.

    See how it works I am a customer if they want my money they better start earning it, instead all we ever hear is “boo hoo piracy”. How about they start producing games I WANT to play, how about they start priducing games that can take weeks to finish instead of being able to finish them the same day you buy it. How about they start promoting the PC version with a decent demo so I can try the game out and see if it is something I want to buy. How about they do all those things and shut up trying to find a scape goat excuse like piracy.

    #40 6 years ago
  41. Shatner

    Sounds an awful lot like “you are either with us or against us”

    Dress it up however you like: Piracy is theft.

    You either support theft or you don’t.

    There’s never any justification for it. Particularly when the theft concerns luxury goods like videogames.

    Charmers, with all due respect, unless you are familiar with the economics of publishing and development you’re simply in no position to point the finger back at a publisher or developer that says piracy is harming their market.

    As I mentioned before, nobody has brought ANYTHING beyond opinon and anecdotal evidence (and some humourously selective comprehension) to counter Ubisoft’s claim. But in order to do that properly you’d need to have as intimate an understanding of the economics of game development and the commercial markets as they do. Which, I’d bet morriss’ 360 on, you don’t.

    So the rest is just your word against theirs. Except you don’t make or sell games and they do – and have done so for years.

    #41 6 years ago
  42. m3nAc3

    @shatner:
    Were you born near Chernobyl or somewhere near? You really don’t understand what I’m trying to tell you. NO ONE has said that the piracy isn’t bad, NO ONE has said that piracy isn’t theft, and NO ONE has said that piracy is “FAB” (that is my theory – are you insane?!)…

    N64 had perfect piracy protection in comparison with playstation 1. And that was the point of that line. So don’t play stupid, as you didn’t know what I was trying to tell you… Ohhh, there is no perfect piracy protection?!, and the warm water has been invented, ohh my, I didn’t know that…

    About “your” developers, you mentioned only one – Ensemble. And your argument was that they were closed because of the piracy, and oh yeah “Go ASK Them” argument too… Really mature dude… If you can’t show any articles why did Ensemble really closed down, or some research i.e. effect of piracy that was critical for Ensemble fate, then that argument about Ensemble isn’t really an argument, it’s only your opinion… And It’s a poor one at best…

    About Psychonauts, Beyond Good and Evil etc., that games are the real exceptions… Who knows why they weren’t accepted in gaming community. But I’m pretty sure that the piracy wasn’t the main factor for theirs tragic (non commercial) fate.

    “I’m not prepared to pay for something so I’d prefer to steal it instead = a pirate = supporter of piracy = attempting to dismiss the significant harm that piracy does to the industry = you’re all pretty much as despicable as each other”

    So…, let’s see did I get this right, if I say that piracy isn’t such a big factor in PC gaming industry as some publishers want to make it (without any proof what so ever)…, I’m A PIRAT! And a despicable one! OMG I didn’t know… Can I ask you again: are you insane?

    Please show me some of your figures, I showed you mine (Sins of Solar Empire – 500 000 units, Galactic Civilizations 2 – 300 000 units, COD4 – 10 million units, Orange Box – 1,5 million units etc.).
    Don’t tell me your opinion, don’t try to explain your logic to me – just show me some concrete proof that piracy is effecting sales on PC market. If you can’t, shut up. It’s simple as that.

    #42 6 years ago
  43. Shatner

    You know, when people start their counter-arguments with a personal dig I know it’s because there’s nothing better they can come up with.

    PIRACY = THEFT
    THEFT = BAD

    See? That’s it. You steal from people, it damages them.

    If you’re not capable of understanding that or seek to fluff it up into something it’s not by way of throwing in some VGChartz figurez and waving your arms about and carefully ignoring facts and details that make your argument hollow and empty then you’ve no point arguing in the first place.

    Menace, I see you’ve continuing to ignore every point I’ve raised that counters your cherry picked exceptions to the rule, you’ve now made some personal remarks and, on top of that, you’re deliberately acting the victim by suggesting I’m calling you a pirate.

    Your ability to comprehend what has been said is getting poorer with every post.

    Let me make this very very simple for those with very very poor comprehension skills:

    For a commercial company to remain in business the need to control their revenue. They need to forecast and budget. If large groups of people STEAL revenue that is owed to them (by the sale of product) then, wait for it, that DAMAGES THE COMPANY and subsequently, if it is prevailent enough (which in the games industry, it is) it DAMAGES THE INDUSTRY.

    Menace (sorry, I’m dropping your the l33tness from your username as I don’t believe you’ve qualify for it), if the best you can do for an industry with THOUSANDS of products and THOUSANDS of companies is to pull 5 or 6 names off the top of your head (minus detailed financial facts and figures, of course) then that really shows how heavily the odds of this scenario are stacked against you , doesn’t it?

    That you’re going exclusively on anecdotal evidence against the statements of a commercial company, again, is quite a comical contrast.

    Objectively, I’m going to side with informed views of the professional who does what he does for a living over some anonymous guy on the internet who thinks the N64 was never subjected to piracy.

    Unfortunately Menace, you’ve lolled yourself out of this argument with your oversights and extremely selective examples and melodrama.

    Do let me know what Iron Lore say to you after you’ve spoken to them though. Oh, and don’t forget to look up the Doctor 64 N64 pirating device either.

    Perhaps when you stop carefully ignoring all and any facts that don’t go with your predetermined view your comments will carry a bit more weight.

    #43 6 years ago
  44. m3nAc3

    @shatner:

    “You know, when people start their counter-arguments with a personal dig I know it’s because there’s nothing better they can come up with.”

    Yeah, it’s so true. But every coin has the other side – and this one is, that there is no other way of talking with people who are saying such BS on regular bases, as you are doing…

    “For a commercial company to remain in business the need to control their revenue. They need to forecast and budget. If large groups of people STEAL revenue that is owed to them (by the sale of product) then, wait for it, that DAMAGES THE COMPANY and subsequently, if it is prevailent enough (which in the games industry, it is) it DAMAGES THE INDUSTRY.”

    That would be the case if all the illegal downloads are 100% possible customers. But they aren’t.
    Many people download games over torrents because they want to see can they run the game, or do they like the game at all. Many new games don’t provide demo. 10 years ago demo was a standard, now it’s almost an exception.
    But than again I should thank you; I didn’t know that if you take a illegally large sum of money from some company you DAMAGED IT… ooooh my you are so smart…, I hope when I grow up I can be smart as you…

    “Objectively, I’m going to side with informed views of the professional who does what he does for a living over some anonymous guy on the internet who thinks the N64 was never subjected to piracy.”

    WTF?! Who said that?! Can you read man? Or are you playing dumb 24/7… or maybe you are not playing at all…

    “Menace (sorry, I’m dropping your the l33tness from your username as I don’t believe you’ve qualify for it), if the best you can do for an industry with THOUSANDS of products and THOUSANDS of companies is to pull 5 or 6 names off the top of your head (minus detailed financial facts and figures, of course) then that really shows how heavily the odds of this scenario are stacked against you , doesn’t it?”

    My god you are so lame… I pulled 5 or 6 names off the top of my head, witch are the biggest in this business, I posted how much units of games were sold, but I didn’t post any detailed financial facts… Oh poor poor me… What should I do to convince you?, get a job in Activision?!
    On the other hand what did you do? Except post your opinion? What proof and financial facts are on your side?!

    But It’s obvious you can’t understand that (and many other things witch I repeated 100 times). It seems that you live in a black & white world, and I don’t want to spoiled that fantasy for you…

    Good night and good luck

    #44 6 years ago
  45. killah2km

    it’s a hell of alot easier to pirate an xbox 360 game vs a pc game.. consoles are way cheaper that their pc counterparts that can run these nex gen games, with a 360 all you do is burn a game and it works, on pc you need cracks and protection emulation.. what fools for not releasing on pc.

    #45 6 years ago
  46. Psychotext

    You just burn a game and it works? You missed out the bit about opening up the console, working out your drive version, getting the right mod, hoping MS don’t catch you if you play online etc.

    #46 6 years ago
  47. deanimate

    *nips into the kitchen*
    crumpets anyone? toast with jam? no jam?
    i have hot tea, coffee and cold milk.
    this discussion needs some culinary expertise before everyone reverts to a badger.
    maybe some jam on a crumpet?

    #47 6 years ago
  48. Psychotext

    Mmm… badger on toast.

    Wait, what?

    #48 6 years ago
  49. vezon

    Ok, some point of view from a guy who mostly pirate games.
    First. pirating=theft=bad just with a little difference
    a nornal theft +thief account = -victim account,
    here its not the case, basically when you pirate a game you are not damaging it directly.
    Second. and the most important thing. We discuss about money, and in marketing there is a rule. Everybody has his own price for a “thing” (game, music, tv, car, pencil).
    You cant expect from somebody who are making 300$ a month to pay 50$ for every game.
    Third. An example. Microsoft windows. Does anybody think that people who are pirating games, do have a windows licence?

    So finally. This antipiracy effort should be directed to the casual people who are on the edge to buy games but because of the easiness of playing pirated games on PC and the influence of others are not.
    Even if could exist a method to make piracy non existent, the people who will buy the game from those who downloaded are well under 10%.
    And most of the people who are playing pirated games on PC, they play pirated games on console. Even on console I remember something about the pirateing killed the dreamcast, strangely enough the PS was much more pirated.

    So even this recent affirmation about piracy is killing PC is offending my inteligence, if they can manage to attract some people from those 10% to the other side, its all for the better

    #49 6 years ago
  50. Herlock

    Yu can found lot of 360 games too, UBI wake Up!
    Stop blame PC!
    Piraty on 360 is huge!

    #50 6 years ago
  51. Psychotext

    Herlock: Yet somehow 360 games still sell millions. Somehow I doubt they’re that concerned about the 360 piracy issue in comparison to the PC.

    #51 6 years ago
  52. G1GAHURTZ

    “You cant expect from somebody who are making 300$ a month to pay 50$ for every game.”

    IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE MONEY, DON’T PLAY THE GAME!!!

    I can’t afford a Bugatti Veyron, but you won’t hear me complaining that it should be perfectly fine for me to steal one, do you!!??

    Ever heard of having a little patience and saving up enough money to play a game??

    In fact, you’re only making your own problem worse, because the more that you steal games, the more the price will go up.

    So when there finally is a totally fool-proof DRM, you’ll definitely not be able to afford ANY games.

    #52 6 years ago
  53. Psychotext

    G1GAHURTZ: Pretty much. I can’t afford high class hookers. Doesn’t mean I go around sexually assaulting models.

    #53 6 years ago
  54. G1GAHURTZ

    LOL

    #54 6 years ago
  55. Herlock

    @Psychotext
    Yu can found Fallout 3 on internet now and not on PC so…

    #55 6 years ago
  56. Psychotext

    So what? Maybe 5% of 360 owners have their machines hacked… if that. Pirated PC games are available to anyone with a PC and a net connection.

    #56 6 years ago
  57. XDamage

    Well I’ll be… It’s every hacked 360′s birthday today. :D

    #57 6 years ago
  58. vezon

    “IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE MONEY, DON’T PLAY THE GAME!!!”

    As I see dont understand the hole point. If you dont play a game or play it for free it doesnt alter the INCOME.

    I dont say the piracy isnt a bad thing, but its the main problem in teh PC Gaming.
    Do u think that the movie industry is in decline? Or microsoft loosing money?

    #58 6 years ago
  59. G1GAHURTZ

    Actually, it does affect the income of both the publisher, and the developer.

    If you’d spent 18-24 months or more working on a game, I’m pretty certain that you’d expect to get paid for it. You’d probably also hope for some nice bonuses if you’d made a really good game too.

    Where do you think that that money comes from??

    It comes from people who actually buy games! So what you’re actually doing is taking full advantage of the end products of the games industry without putting anything into it.

    Your effectively not only stealing from the people who make the games, but also from the people who actually spend their hard earned money on them too.

    If no-one bought any games, then Activision would have no money. They couldn’t even borrow it from a bank, because the bank would say ‘no-one buys games, so you won’t be able to pay us back.’

    If Activision had no money, they couldn’t afford to give IW the $6-8 million that they need to pay their staff wages, pay the rent, overheads, other bills, etc.

    So basically, the only reason that games are made the way that they are today is because of the people who actually buy them. Activision got their money from selling games!

    Without these people who actually BUY games, you would have no games to play because no publishers would have any money to give to the developers, and the developers wouldn’t be able to pay any wages, so no-one would make any games!

    If you want to say; ‘that’s ok, I don’t mind. I’m not hurting anyone.’ Then you’re wrong.

    You’re wrong because every $50 game that you pirate is another $50 that isn’t going back to the people who made the game.

    If you really wanted to play those games, and you didn’t pirate them, then I’m sure that you’d find a way of raising the $50 to pay for them.

    Which is the whole point.

    Every single pirate copy of a game that someone owns and plays is money lost for both the developers and the publishers of that game, because if you couldn’t get it for free, then you would only be able to play it if you could buy it.

    At the end of the day, if you don’t want to pay money for games, then you shouldn’t play them.

    #59 6 years ago
  60. m3nAc3

    @G1GAHURTZ

    I agree with you in pretty much everything you said, with few exceptions… Of course piracy is a crime, and basically it’s theft. But not all of the illegal downloads are possible customers. Research must be taken that proofs how much of money is really being lost. Until then, no one can say for sure that piracy is the main reason for someone to go in bankruptcy.
    Let’s set an example: I’m Rpg fan from the very beginning (Fallout, Baldur’s Gate, Planescape: Torment etc i have them all on my shelf.), and we all know that Fallout 3 has just been made gold. There is no demo. In my country, new games, from store, will cost you 70$! Also you must take into consideration that there is a big possibility that this game will be crap, or at least it won’t be a real successor of the original series. In best case scenario it would be great, but there is risk, and if you don’t have money to throw around you will download it for free via torrents and see what the game really is. If the game is great, I will buy it in store, if the game is crap, I will uninstall it from my computer and never play it again.

    So am I a thief, or am I just being careful?

    If you think that it would be better to buy the game in any case. In the end you would have one dissatisfied customer, with possibility of five more (my friends etc.). So is it better for Bathesda, in this case, to have one dissatisfied customer, or five more…?
    On the other hand it would best for Bathesda that they have made a really great game, and not “Obilivion with guns”… :)

    About anti piracy protection – it’s not working. And it never will. Every anti piracy protection will be broken, and so what is the result?
    The result is that you have millions of people, who bought their copy of the game absolutely legally, totally dissatisfied because they are treated like criminals from companies witch live from them.
    On one hand you have normal people, true fans, who are regularly buying original games, and for their thanks they are being molested by different anti piracy programs. On the other hand you have people that never bought original game, and never will, but they don’t have any problems what so ever with anti piracy programs, limited numbers of installation, and who knows what else…

    So I ask you, where is the sense in that?!

    #60 6 years ago
  61. blackdreamhunk

    There is as much pircay on consoles too. I just found this link today. I found out about your site yesterday. I had to say something!

    http://www.videogamer.com/news/09-10-2008-9606-1.html
    http://kotaku.com/5044010/capcom-explain-r4-lawsuit-participation
    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Weekend-Reading-Fighting-Against-Piracy-91313.shtml
    http://www.edge-online.com/news/activision-sues-alleged-cod-pirate

    looks like console games get pirated too

    #61 6 years ago
  62. G1GAHURTZ

    “So am I a thief, or am I just being careful?”

    Sorry fella. There’s no excuse for that. If you are genuinely just trying to asses the quality of the game, and will genuinely buy it if you find to be a good game, then that’s at least better than someone who never pays for games.

    However, that’s not the only way to find out if a game is good or not before you buy it.

    Why not just read the reviews?

    You can check sites like Metacritic and Gamerankings to see what professional games reviewers think of the game.

    You can check blogs, forums, Youtube vids, etc to see what the overall opinion of a game is.

    That’s what I do.

    Sure, I’ve bought games that I’ve hated after buying them, but when I went back and read the review again, I’ve seen all of the issues that I had with the game mentioned in the review.

    Sometimes I’ve been really keen on getting a game before release, but then after reading bad reviews, I’ve saved my money and not bought it.

    Fracture on the 360 is the most recent example of this. Actually, I only decided to get Fracture because of the Demo, which was quite good, but when I saw the reviews that said the the whole thing was repetitive the whole way through, I decided against it.

    So demo’s and playing the first few levels of a game doesn’t always work!

    I’m not saying that you’re always going to agree with the press opinion of games, because there’s always someone who disagrees with something.

    I mean, could you imagine someone just walking into a cinema through the back door, watching the first 20 minutes of a film, and then deciding whether he wanted to pay for it or not??

    It’s totally unnecessary. If you buy a bad game, then ‘fanboy blitz’ it to death on the net, and the company will suffer for it.

    There’s no need to support illegal torrents and promote their use at all.

    “On the other hand you have people that never bought original game, and never will, but they don’t have any problems what so ever with anti piracy programs, limited numbers of installation, and who knows what else…

    So I ask you, where is the sense in that?!”

    Well I could just as easily say that the only reason that those people who buy the game are treated like criminals…

    Is because of the criminals!

    If it wasn’t for pirates in the first place, then I’d say that no developer would see the need to put any protection on their game other than something simple like a serial number.

    If people want that stuff to go away, then they should stop pirating games.

    #62 6 years ago
  63. m3nAc3

    @G1GAHURTZ:
    Yeah, your right mate. But it still stands if you want to be 100% sure, you can download it via torrents :), on condition you buy the original in case you liked it. It’s a gray area, but I understand the people who are doing it.
    I don’t believe some of the reviews, but hey thank god for metacritic and game forums…

    Let’s go back to the subject. When some big companies (like Ubisoft, Crytek and others) declare that “Piracy is killing PC”, in other words, they are losing a whole lot of money, it should be expected that they provide some proof for that kind of statements. You know, it’s in their best interest…
    So why there is no proof for that kind of statement, because it’s lame excuse to go on console market and make much more money. Some people will say – that’s the real proof that PC market is corrupted by piracy… And people who say that are ignorant to say the least. You can’t compare PC with Wii, Play 3 or Xbox 360. Not because PC is better or something, it’s because it’s much more complicated as a gaming platform than consoles (it’s more single guy exp.). So consoles will always be easier platform if you look at it that away. And more attractive to regular customers. In the age of SNES, games on PC were nothing special (in comparation with SNES), a Nintedno made it’s name because of that console. But no one will now say that SNES was a success because of piracy on PC market.

    About piracy protection. I should have said that this kind of aggressive anti piracy protection we have now, is contra productive for the publishers who make a living of this industry.
    Cars are also being stolen. And they have alarms against burglars too. But you can enter in your car, and alarm will not kick you in the balls, smash your teeth or something like that…, of course under excuse that it was “thinking” that you were the burglar…

    #63 6 years ago
  64. G1GAHURTZ

    lol. When the SNES came out, the internet was relatively unknown amongst most people, and the people who did know about it were using 16k modems and the like!

    At that time, piracy pretty much involved copying your mates 3.5″ discs using xcopy or something similar.

    These days all you need to do is type the name of the game that you want into Google, followed by the word torrent and you’re away.

    It’s true what you say about gaming being easier on console though. I personally think that PC gaming will eventually disappear in the future as everyone turns to consoles for their gaming needs.

    The way that I look at it is this…

    I could buy a £1000 PC that can play the best games now, but probably won’t be able to play most of the new games in 3 years time. Or I could buy a console for £150-£300 now, and in 3 years time, the games will be better than they were when I bought it.

    Simple choice as far as I’m concerned. (Even though I have a decent gaming PC at the moment.)

    Anyway, the reality is that in this case, the proof for the claim about piracy killing PC GAMING could only ever be circumstantial.

    But that doesn’t mean that it’s any less valid.

    I suppose that without a Minority Report style ‘Pre-crime’ system, no-one could ever prove or dis-prove that little ‘Joey Pirate’ would or would not have bought a game if he wasn’t able to download it for free.

    But I think that it’s enough for a company to spend about two years working hard on a game, and then see the thing plasetered all over bittorrent the day after it went Gold.

    Then what happens is that if the game doesn’t sell well, the first thing that gets the blame are the pirates.

    See here for a perfect example.

    I see what you’re saying about copy protection affecting those who wouldn’t even think of pirating. But I still say that the real people to blame for that are the people who scared the developers into coming up with it in the first place.

    #64 6 years ago
  65. vezon

    @Gigahurtz
    copy protection existed and will exist many years, its engineering fault if its affecting the real customer.
    NO, the free play doesnt affect the income (there was given countless of example which prove that).
    And no its not the same with stealing a Bugatti Veyron. If u manage to make a copy of it, that’s case is identical to this. U heard somewhere that a guy was sued because he made a replica?(I’m not talking about selling replicas)
    As I see u cant comprehend the fact that there are MANY MANY MANY people out there who cant afford to buy games, they barely manage to upgrade their computer to be in midbudget even if there passionate gamers. I am talking about East Europe and Asia, those big numbers of downloads are coming from that directon. THEY ARE NOT POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS.
    I wanted to mention before but wroted both comments in a hurry, if publisher would give another option to countries like them to buy the game from the internet with less, lets say 10-20$ and from those downloads 50% would pay that fee that would make a good profit, but oh no, the case its exactly the opposite.
    so the solution is making replicas.
    It is a false statement to say that the console have better income because of the piracy, actually is because more people are moving to consoles, even if its hindered by the lack of controlers like mouse.

    #65 6 years ago
  66. Shatner

    Let’s go back to the subject. When some big companies (like Ubisoft, Crytek and others) declare that “Piracy is killing PC”, in other words, they are losing a whole lot of money, it should be expected that they provide some proof for that kind of statements. You know, it’s in their best interest…

    As I already stated (but you choose to ignore) it is impossible to provide proof of things that don’t happen. When you stop acting like you’re the good guy for stealing other people’s products and think objectively, just HOW would you propose a company present quantifiable proof of sales that haven’t occurred due to people stealing their products?

    Furthermore, the stance that the THIEF should be demanding proof of the effects of their actions is ridiculous. You’re not in the right. You knowingly steal products instead of buying them. You have no right to act like you’re the party being hard done by. You attitude in playing the victim is absolute nonsense.

    I could ask YOU for proof that you buy games after you ‘assess their worth’. When do you choose to decide to buy the game? I mean after you’ve played it so long to decide “Hey it’s great!” you’re more likely to continue to play the freebie than to suddenly get an attack of the morals and spend some of your money on paying for something you (mistakenly and illicitly) believe you already own.

    And what if the game’s fun wears off on you? Do you then, after hours of playing, decide you’re bored of it and don’t need to pay for it at all?

    No. Sorry. The perpetrators’ attempts to make their theft sound like a “try before you buy” scheme doesn’t wash. There will be endless excuses as to why you never felt it was worth parting with cash for the game you already stole.

    And let’s not forget – games are not subject to some arbitrary escrow service that the thieves like m3nac3 decided to invent. Their ‘worth’ is stuck on the outside of the box with a little “£” sign in front of it. If you don’t agree with that then you don’t get the product.

    IF YOU TAKE SOMETHING WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT YOU ARE STEALING FROM THE PEOPLE THAT PRODUCE THE PRODUCT.

    M3nac3 – you are a thief first and foremost. Legally, you are a pirate. You have no moral argument. You have no justification. YOU are a big reason why game prices are at the level they are.

    Legitimate business don’t need to justify their businesses and revenues to thieves m3nac3. You’re under some ridiculous notion that you’re the one being wronged. You’re not. YOU are the guilty party. YOU are the problem.

    What’s laughable is that you acted offended when there was the insinuation that you might be a software pirate. Except, by your own admission, you ARE a software pirate. What a telling state of affairs eh? You seem to depend wholesale on your belief you’re a victim when, in fact, you’re the one committing the crime.

    Sorry. All your arguments are worthless.

    Vezon, if people can’t afford LUXURY goods like videogames then they have to grasp the notion that’s stood for centuries: YOU DO WITHOUT.

    Your argument suggests that people are ENTITLED to videogames whether they’re in a position to pay for them or not.

    Not so.

    If this was about healthcare, food, clean water then your argument might make some sense.

    But we’re talking luxury goods. If you can’t pay for it you do without.

    As usual, the pirates and thieves are spinning this as a case where they’re the victims and their ‘only option’ is to steal. No. The real option is YOU DO WITHOUT.

    The comparison about recreating a car is not even remotely accurate either. If, perhaps, pirates re-DEVELOPED every single line of code and remade every single audio and graphical asset that the hundreds of programmers, artists and designers had taken years to produce THEN they would be copying something in the same context as you presented.

    They don’t. They sit on the fat asses and click a mouse a couple of times and then they go off to the internet to whine about how hard done by they are and what poor victims they are.

    EVERY SINGLE JUSTIFICATION for piracy I’ve ever heard is fatally flawed because the thief believes they are the victim or that the manufacturer doesn’t need the revenue or that they have some entitlement to things they either can’t afford or refuse to pay for.

    Piracy is grim. But the incessent spin that greedy thieves present in some attempt to suggest their consistent law breaking and stealing is a reasonable (even charitable) act is fucking atrocious. Pirates are bad. “Moral” pirates are just scum.

    #66 6 years ago
  67. vezon

    The comparation with replicas is prety accurate just the balance between inteligence property and manufacturing cost is different. You only stole the first part.

    THEFT is THEFT nor matter the circumstances, even a LIE is THEFT. And I never make justification that anything is rigth with THEFT.

    I only stated that “piracy is killing PC” is false.
    And the solution for piracy is not inventing some ridiculous protection which affect customers, almost any protection can be beat, or make excuses like this to dont make games. If its not profitable its profitable dont do it, piracy wont change that.
    I even agreed with this kind of movement against piracy, if they can put some moral questions in possible customers, but I think its weak to base some propaganda on false statements. There are better ways, even mentioned one.

    PS. I even wonder if you never played a game without paying in your entire life.

    #67 6 years ago
  68. m3nAc3

    @shatner: Are you reading this…, I know you do…, now I want you to take a step back… and literally fuck your own face!
    (tnx for this Les)
    Real thief were your parents when they conceived brainless monkey such as yourself…

    “As I already stated (but you choose to ignore) it is impossible to provide proof of things that don’t happen. When you stop acting like you’re the good guy for stealing other people’s products and think objectively, just HOW would you propose a company present quantifiable proof of sales that haven’t occurred due to people stealing their products?”

    In this world you can get statistical information of how many flies dies in one hour around the world. And your are telling me that it’s impossible to find proof about piracy damage?! Because you can’t imagine it, so the conclusion is: it can’t be done…
    Now I want you to take a step back… and literally fuck your own face!
    (tnx Les)

    I don’t play PC games as much as I used to. I got three games installed on my computer right now: Neverwinter Nights Platinum, Neverwinter Nights 2, and Mass Effect. All three I had bought legally in store. My friends are looking at me in kind of a weird way, the look that’s saying: why did you buy it when you could have it for free? They don’t understand that I truly believe in supporting developers when I buy their game. And I liked to watch them on my shelf. :)

    So when some douche bag calls me a thief because I was talking about hypothetical situations, and I was trying to explain that the world isn’t in black and white colors, and on top of that he doesn’t even know me in real life to make such accusations, I say to him:
    Now I want you to take a step back… and literally fuck your own face!
    (tnx Les)

    About anti-piracy protection, cars are the perfect example. They are luxury goods, more than any video game will ever be. And they are being stolen at an incredible rate. But if you want to buy decent anti-burglar alarm, you must buy it separately from regular equipment you get with your car. I don’t suggest any similar thing with video games.
    So I will say it again because I think I didn’t get any fair explanation: “you can enter in your car, and alarm will not kick you in the balls, smash your teeth or something like that…, of course under excuse that it was “thinking” that you were the burglar…”
    And when we are at it: car company will not ever try to limit your car on only three drivers…
    Yeah I know, you can’t copy a car as well you can copy a video game, but you sure in hell can you easily steal it. If you are a professional witch big game pirates are, or in my example big game car thief, there is no difference. It’s easy in both cases. And there is no protection that will stop them.

    So in the light of that, why can’t I install Mass Effect more than 3 times on my computer? I bought it legally, why can’t I do it. It’s not because of pirates (as Gigahurtz said), It’s because of greed. Human greed – that is all what’s this is about. Human greed people. They don’t want you to borrow your game to your friends, or something like that, because they will maybe (and this is a big maybe) loose some money because of it.

    And on other hand you have “big bad piracy” problem witch is perfect example of a scape goat.
    But I’m a nice guy, I don’t believe that Ubisoft, a large multinational corporation, would ever lied to us. Because corporations don’t lie…

    And when Ubisoft says “Piracy is basically killing PC” they are basically saying, we want more money, and the console market is the right way to go!
    Greed…, nothing else.

    #68 6 years ago
  69. st00rm

    That’s a bunch of BS. The reason PC sales are so low is because PC games are a lot more “demanding” than consolers, what i mean is if you look at the x360 sales one of the most sold games is the one where you press 5 buttons as they show up on screen (Guitar hero or something) which is what the PC had 10 years ago, so don’t expect PC gamers to buy the game, just because they’ll put those 5 buttons on a guitar-looking piece plastic(which you have to pay for).

    And as for piracy, well some research says that people that download a game weren’t going to buy it anyway so no money lost there, and the movie piracy is apparently even larger, yet all the movie studios keep on making more and more money.

    #69 6 years ago
  70. Shatner

    “@shatner: Are you reading this…, I know you do…, now I want you to take a step back… and literally fuck your own face!
    (tnx for this Les)
    Real thief were your parents when they conceived brainless monkey such as yourself…”

    Oh. That’s some quality justification for theft. Excellent work!

    Sorry, but considering that you’re getting so shirty for being called a thief (which is accurate considering you steal products without paying for them), that you’re pathetic “victim” act doesn’t wash. That, as a thief, you have no grounds to insist anyone prove you wrong (you’re a thief – you’re wrong by DEFAULT).

    So now, as well as continuing to ignore EVERY bit of logic and detail that doesn’t suit your corrupt cause you decided to just go slinging insults.

    Poor thief. When he gets cornered he just turns nasty.

    Sorry thief, you have NO rights, NO sympathy and NO justifications for your actions. You’re GREEDY, SELFISH, IMMORAL and shamefully corrupt.

    THIEVES do NOT have the right to demand a company prove that THEFT HURTS TRADE. Of course it hurts trade. You don’t need proof, it’s common sense. You have no rights to demand any proof because YOU ARE THE THIEF DOING THE STEALING. It’s YOU who are answerable to the people, not the other way around. That you can’t (or won’t) see the complete backwards-ness of your whining is excpetionally offensive to anyone with a shred of logic and who isn’t THIEVING SCUM who thinks they’re better than people who DON’T STEAL FROM OTHER PEOPLE.

    You’re still trying to make the fact that YOU STEAL FROM PEOPLE into something righteous and proper.

    You’re a thief and you’re the worst kind of thief: one that can’t admit that what he’s doing is wrong or even express regret for it.

    You steal from PEOPLE I KNOW. You steal from MY FRIENDS. You steal from people I RESPECT.

    The fact of the matter is: YOU STEAL. You then squirm about it trying to make excuses for why (unlike ALL OF SOCIETY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS) you believe you’re entitled to something without paying its price. All your pleas and stupid attempts at justification are TOO LATE because YOU STOLE FROM PEOPLE FIRST. Don’t you see? You AUTOMATICALLY put yourself into the worst possible position.

    STOP STEALING FROM PEOPLE AND THEN MAYBE SOMEONE WILL GIVE A DAMN ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY.

    And, even though you can’t admit it you KNOW you’re in the wrong. You KNOW what you’re doing is theft. You KNOW theft is wrong. But you’re too selfish and self absorbed in your own sense of corrupt logic that entitles you to rip off thousands of people’s work and make LAW ABIDING consumers pay higher prices because of the CRIMES YOU COMMIT.

    You’re immoral, law-breaking scum and you deserve to be fined EVERY PENNY that your multiple law-breaking offences warrant.

    Whatever you do, whatever you say, whatever names you think you can call others – IT DOESN’T MATTER. You’re still worse than ANYONE that you point your sticky little fingers at. You’re a thief. You have no position in any sort of moral argument because you’re MORALLY BANKRUPT. You LOSE by default.

    Legally and morally YOU ARE DEAD IN THE WATER. You have no leg to stand on. Because you DON’T make the law. You don’t dictate how trade works. You’re just a selfish thief who wants his luxury goods without paying for them. You’re not a victim. You’re just despicable filth that believes their entitled to STEAL from people. I very much hope someone steals from you and then spits on any rights you believe you have. Karma’s a beautiful thing.

    If I ran this site I’d collect your IP address and give it to every games publisher I know and hope they choose to press charges against you.

    #70 6 years ago
  71. m3nAc3

    oooh ooh my, oooh my, such temper… Go to bed honey, momma will get you a cookie, so you will not piss in your pants anymore… It’s okay don’t worry… I know the people who think differently then you can get you so upset, so you yell, and you get all slobber, it’s okey… Momma will tell you a story: It’s black and white world out there, full of fairies, magical gnomes, and colorful dragons, and if you are going to be good boy maybe someday you will live with them… And don’t forget to eat your vegetables tomorrow in school, unless you wanna visit from mister Pirate when you are asleep.

    #71 6 years ago
  72. Shatner

    The world isn’t black and white.

    But the world is very clear on what software piracy is. It’s illegal. Its perpetrators are thieves.

    That makes you a criminal.

    Shrug it off or try to apply your silly efforts to smokescreen what you do as much as you like. But you wilfully and knowingly repeatedly break the law.

    You are totally and utterly in the wrong and without any justification to support your actions. You are greedy. You are immoral.

    You are not a victim. You and people like you are what damages the industry and raise prices that good, decent, law abiding people have to pay.

    You are the problem.

    You know this. But your selfishness and pride won’t allow you to admit it. So you carry on your pathetic act and just make yourself more contemptable and ridiculous every time you say anything.

    You’re pathetic.

    And let’s not forget that earlier in these comments, you suggested offense at the insinuation that you might be a software pirate. What a blatant attempt at manipulation that was! You KNEW the insinuation was accurate but you still went ahead with the charade of mock offense.

    I guess, apart from knowing that you’re a thief and a criminal, we can also deduce that you’re a liar too.

    Based on your own pride, greed, selfishness (and lets not forget ignorance!) demonstrated in these comments it’s amazing that you think anybody could possibly give a shit about you or your view on piracy.

    You’re selfish. You’re out for what you can get and are happy to steal and lie to people to get it.

    You’ve condemned yourself in these comments. I look forward to you crawling back under whatever fetid, stenching rock you came from. Nobody cares about you. For those of us that don’t steal and don’t break the law and DO enjoy videogames and DO pay for the games we play (that’s BEFORE we obtain them, not after) it’s people like YOU that cost us money and make our hobby more and more expensive.

    Nobody likes you. Go home thief.

    #72 6 years ago
  73. deanimate

    scones are, i believe, part of the bread family :)

    #73 6 years ago
  74. Esha

    Zounds. As bad as I may sometimes be, simply because I’m opinionated and a bit of a contrarian, I can take comfort in the fact that I’ll never be as bad as this thread.

    And to be honest, I doubt I’ll be able to take anything said by the names involved with more than a grain of salt, ever again. And I think that’s fair.

    Really, I’d rather see this thread talk about scones too.

    Can we talk about scones? I think it’s needed.

    Anyway. Scones are indeed part of the bread family, and they taste particularly nice with clotted cream and jam, and the whole experience is enhanced with a cuppa. The humble scone makes for a grand breakfast experience, in my opinion. It’s almost right up there with pancakes.

    #74 6 years ago
  75. Gamoc

    Indeed, scones are very nice, but I have to say, pancakes are much better. Especially with syrup. Mmm, yes please.

    Emotions are certainly high in these comments. Try taking the high road, Shatner, you can’t change him, so ignore him.

    #75 6 years ago
  76. wrathfromabove

    Michael de Plater’s words = RUBBISH.

    That whole piracy is ruining the pc thing is getting old. It’s pure bulls**t. Except for the ps3, all other consoles are easy-peasy to hack. Not to mention that selling games as downloads on the pc puts 3 times more $$ in the pockets of devs as console games sold retail. What’s ruining pc gaming? Impossible DRM that forces people to get a *clean* pirated copy and late releases (makes people pissed and unwilling to pay — especially if you add that pesky DRM issue into the equation). Industry hacks: STOP. LYING.

    #76 6 years ago

Comments are now closed on this article.

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