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Fez patch back online, fix would cost “a ton of money”

Thursday, 19th July 2012 02:07 GMT By Brenna Hillier

Polytron has opted to re-issue a patch for Fez which can result in players losing save files, because of the high costs of certifying a new update.

“We’re not going to patch the patch. Why not? Because Microsoft would charge us tens of thousands of dollars to re-certify the game,” the independent developer wrote on its blog.

“Microsoft gave us a choice: either pay a ton of money to re-certify the game and issue a new patch (which for all we know could introduce new issues, for which we’d need yet another costly patch), or simply put the patch back online. They looked into it, and the issue happens so rarely that they still consider the patch to be ‘good enough’.

“In the end, paying such a large sum of money to jump through so many hoops just doesn’t make any sense. We already owe Microsoft a LOT of money for the privilege of being on their platform. People often mistakenly believe that we got paid by Microsoft for being exclusive to their platform. Nothing could be further from the truth. WE pay THEM,” the indie added.

Polytron said the save-eating issue only affects less than 1% of players, and its willing to play that “shitty numbers game”.

“As a small independent, paying so much money for patches makes NO SENSE AT ALL. especially when you consider the alternative. Had FEZ been released on steam instead of XBLA, the game would have been fixed two weeks after release, at no cost to us. And if there was an issue with that patch, we could have fixed that right away too,” it added.

Since the patch is believed to be safe for “an overwhelming majority of players” and “fixes almost everything that’s been wrong with the game since launch”, Polytron considers it the best solution.

“For 99% of people, it makes FEZ a better game. To the less-than-1% who are getting screwed, we sincerely apologize. We know this hurts you the most, because you’re the ones who put the most times into the game. And this breaks our hearts. We hope you dont think back on your time spent in FEZ as a total waste,” the team added.

Polytron has hinted in the past that it hopes to bring Fez to other platforms, but has not revealed the terms of an exclusivity agreement related to the puzzle platformer’s Xbox Live Arcade debut.

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76 Comments

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  1. Lord Gremlin

    He should have put it on PSN then, Sony don’t rape developers like that. Or just stick to PC/Steam.
    Stop supporting bloody Microsoft, they ruining gaming. It’s not helping that Sony and Nin are copying some of MS bullshit too. But again, destro the source, the head vampire, the Microshit.

    I remember how this situation was completely alien and unacceptable for a console game. Back when proper Japanese companies were the only ones in business.

    #1 2 years ago
  2. Telepathic.Geometry

    That’s crazy, isn’t it. I feel bad for the guys getting nerfed, but also for the devs, but only a little. It seems to me that however shitty MS’s system is, they have an obligation to their paying customers. You would imagine that they deserve at least a refund.

    With any luck, this will result in Fez coming to PS3 so I can play the little sucker. I guess they’re heavily hinting that Steam is their next stop…

    #2 2 years ago
  3. Lord Gremlin

    The whole point is that PC is the best place for a small dev. Well, PSN can be fine too – provided Sony is interested. But they became wary as of late, after Joe Danger dev escaped to MS after receiving all the support. Regardless, main lesson here is Microsoft robs not only customers but partners too.

    #3 2 years ago
  4. Aimless

    @1 I imagine PSN’s certification process carries a comparable fee, it just doesn’t feature quite the same laundry list of Technical Requirements — player must be controlling the game within X minutes, that kind of thing — which aren’t the issue here.

    Personally I find it odd that some agreement couldn’t be made given Microsoft are Fez‘s publisher, but people shouldn’t be so one-sided as to pin all the blame on the platform holder. Ultimately Polytron put out a patch with a nasty bug, which is understandable but not excusable. Not to say people should be clamouring at their door with pitchforks either, I’m just advocating a generally more measured response.

    #4 2 years ago
  5. Telepathic.Geometry

    What really surprises me is that MS wouldn’t sort this out behind closed doors. The last thing they want is bad PR, Shirley.

    #5 2 years ago
  6. Phoenixblight

    This developer is one that complains the most. I doubt MS will be allowing them to be on their platform anytime seen. Burning bridges and all that.

    #6 2 years ago
  7. Telepathic.Geometry

    If they make a high quality game, MS can’t say “no” in fairness. Especially with Steam providing such a superior and robust service, and PSN being at least competitive.

    Actually, I prefer PSN, and the only thing that gives XBLA the edge is the exclusive games like Geometry Wars and Fez.

    #7 2 years ago
  8. Stardog

    And the PC master race sits here and waits for Fez, while Dear Esther announces 250k sales.

    I don’t get why dev’s make games for anything but PC/mobile. Xbox/PSN seems like a bad business decision.

    The cost of publishing to PC/mobile? $0. The cost of updates? $0.

    #8 2 years ago
  9. Telepathic.Geometry

    It must be the consumer base I guess…

    #9 2 years ago
  10. SlayerGT

    I first learned of this “paying to patch” deal ms runs back during Battlefield Bad Company 2. Its ridiculous. They allow one or two free patches (I can’t remember which) and then they charge. I heard rumors it is only so it doesn’t happen a lot. I.e. ps3 firmware. But I can’t bitch about firmware because it’s free. And I certainly can bitch about this because I still haven’t been explained what I pay for live for. You can argue that the game shouldn’t be requiring a patch at all. Especially since (from what I know, and that’s not much) Fez is a sp game. But when you’re talking mp..? If MS is gonna “approve” a game for their system and it requires patching, they’re not looking out for me as a consumer. And to charge a dev to fix it tells me they’re looking out for themselves. This and other reasons I won’t get into is why I will not be giving MS any more of my money once my live sub is up.

    #10 2 years ago
  11. Henry

    @1 PSN also charges for releasing patches. Tim Schafer said it, both PSN and XBLA need around US$40000
    http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread.php/288656-Tim-Schafer-reveal-the-cost-of-patching-a-game-on-XBL-and-PSN-Ouch!

    In addition, PSN also charges by the file size downloaded. The more people downloaded your things, the more you need to pay.

    #11 2 years ago
  12. Telepathic.Geometry

    I like the idea that in a typical offline one-player game, you get two free updates and from then on you have to pay. It’d keep devs honest.

    Mind you, we’re in a new age now, where devs are struggling just to survive, so maybe it doesn’t make sense in the current climate.

    #12 2 years ago
  13. Phoenixblight

    @10

    THats why Console manufacturers are in the business to make money off the developers to pay for the dev kit, certification, licensing and the patching along with DLC to also gain a profit from the consumers that want such things. If a dev can’t put out a near perfect game than they have to pay for the patching that makes perfect sense to me and I think it is fair. MS is nice enough to allow two free patches knowing the developer will probably need them.

    #13 2 years ago
  14. Jerykk

    Paying MS for the “privilege” of being on XBLA is retarded. Being on XBLA does not guarantee success, especially when it significantly raises costs and makes it harder to just break even. They should have gone on Steam.

    I really don’t understand why any indie would try to release on consoles. Dev kits are prohibitively expensive, certification is prohibitively expensive, you have no control over your own pricing and releasing updates is a slow and arduous process. Why anyone would actually pay extra for this “privilege” is baffling.

    #14 2 years ago
  15. Phoenixblight

    “control over your own pricing and releasing updates is a slow and arduous process. Why anyone would actually pay extra for this “privilege” is baffling.”

    You have control over the pricing not sure what you have been reading.

    Developers go on this service because of the consumer base Indies have to do the same bs for steam as well and it just as slow and ardous as it is on on the consoles. Valve has to see if it will be profitable also along with them taking a payment to get on the service along with them taking 30% for every game sold. Developers have to pick their poison.

    #15 2 years ago
  16. Clupula

    You know, I don’t think Tim Schafer was talking about what you think he was talking about. As someone who plays a lot of niche JRPG’s, I can tell you that a game like Disgaea 4 has been patched about five or six times. In fact, whenever there was a new batch of DLC, there’s been a patch.

    I also remember the makers of BlazBlue making sure to combine two of their PS3 patches into one patch for the 360 version of it, because they said they wanted to save money.

    I am pretty sure the $40,000 he’s talking about is in manpower, internal Q&A, and then the Microsoft fee. It’s $40,000 in total to develop everything, not $40,000 each for PSN and XBLA. Otherwise, there would be a ton of niche companies like XSeed and NISA complaining about how Sony charges them for a patch that I am sure they can’t afford.

    #16 2 years ago
  17. Zarckan

    All platform holders have costs attached to submitting patches IF there are no new features.

    However smart developers will sneak in the tiniest of new features to get around it.

    However if there is a bug that causes save issues that was NOT found in certification then the platform holder ARE to blame and will allow certification at NO extra cost.

    This sounds more like Mr Fish has fucked up and his coder can’t find a fix.

    #17 2 years ago
  18. PenTaFH

    Well, yeah. Two sides of the coin. On the one hand, if the post-release support is so damn expensive because of them, why go with Microsoft?
    On the other hand, this is quite an insight, and good for them to take a stand.

    #18 2 years ago
  19. Fin

    There’s no excuse for re-releasing a broken patch.

    So the game was in development for five years, then was released with bugs. Then there was a patch to fix the bugs, but it has bugs. Now they’re re-releasing the buggy patch because (essentially) they don’t want to pay to fix it? Fuck off.

    #19 2 years ago
  20. Phoenixblight

    “However if there is a bug that causes save issues that was NOT found in certification then the platform holder ARE to blame and will allow certification at NO extra cost.”

    Not how it works. Platform holders do not play tthe game to make sure it is up to snuff. THe developers have to fill out this multi-paged report checking off what the game is and that it fulfills requirements to be put on the services. The developer than signs that they will be held accountable. Microsoft does not have the man power to have them play every game submitted to them that is all put on to the developer.

    #20 2 years ago
  21. Da Man

    #1, you really should do some research. It’s a standard practice for all three companies, in general. Suggest not releasing broken video games. Because if anything, MS system makes for more quality control, and less devs relying on patches.

    But then if MS pays people to put content on their platform they’re bribing, Sony ‘re helping. obv.

    You just can’t argue with fans of teh Cell and teh Japan.

    I remember how video games were being released in completely alien and unacceptable state for a console game, such as with Shadow Hearts 2 saves being corrupted. Back when phallic swords and clunky controls were the only ones being released.

    If it wasn’t for MS we would probably have another Pos2 with teh blu-ray, teh processor running on love and no online.

    #21 2 years ago
  22. roadkill

    Well if someone is dumb enough to get a console then they deserve all this s**t that comes along with it. Suck it losers! Hahaha!

    #22 2 years ago
  23. Fin

    @20

    Absolutely not. Certification means testing. Microsoft have a massive QA department for testing games. They play every game that’s released on the platform to make sure it conforms to TCRs (technical checklist requirements).

    #23 2 years ago
  24. KrazyKraut

    This console generation is the worst. No wonder why I still pay more for a PSX or SNES game than a ps3 or x360 game. Its sad how small indies get their blood sucked out.

    #24 2 years ago
  25. Jerykk

    @20

    I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from. Firstly, when you release a game on XBLA, you have no control over the pricing. Want to charge $3.49? $17.99? $21.39? Sorry, it’s not up to you. You have to follow MS’s pricing tiers and if you want to put it on sale, MS will decide how much the discount will be and when the sale will happen. MS also decides when the game is even released. You could submit a game, pass certification and still wait months before MS decides to put the game up on XBLA. Oh yeah, you also need a publisher to release a game on XBLA. No publisher, no release. And you need to be a certified Xbox developer.

    Secondly, the submission process is NOT just a checklist that people fill out and hand in to MS. Publishers submit builds to MS and then these builds go through rigorous testing to make sure they comply with MS’s TCRs. These TCR checks test things like load times, loading screen hints, Achievements, Rich Presence text, controller port switching, memory card swapping, etc.

    Conversely, putting a game up on Steam is easy. Once Valve approves of the game, they upload it to their servers and you decide when you want the game to be released and at what price. If you want to lower the price or put the game on sale, it’s all up to you. If you want to release a patch, you just send it to Valve and they upload. No certification process. They might check to see if the game launches and give you a heads up if it doesn’t, but there are no formal requirements. How much does all of this cost? Nothing. Valve takes a 30% cut of each sale and that’s it. MS and Sony do the same thing on XBLA and PSN, only with added hoops and expenses piled on. To compare Steam with XBLA and PSN is ridiculous.

    #25 2 years ago
  26. Ge0force

    “We already owe Microsoft a LOT of money for the privilege of being on their platform. People often mistakenly believe that we got paid by Microsoft for being exclusive to their platform. Nothing could be further from the truth. WE pay THEM,”

    Then why the hell is Fez an XBLA exclusive?

    Devs should stop supporting this kind of nonsense, and sell their games on PSN and Steam. Their fans will follow eventually.

    #26 2 years ago
  27. Dragon246

    @26,
    Is he really telling the truth?

    #27 2 years ago
  28. Zarckan

    @20 you’re talking bollocks, as someone who has submitted multiple titles on multiple platforms… Sony, MS, Nintendo do EXTENSIVE testing on products, and will fail you if they find issues.

    “Save/Load” are probably checked the most due to corruption issues, as such if MS missed it, then they are solely responsible for shoddy QA.

    HOWEVER, if they did find it and gave a waivered approval, IE PolyTron had to sign a bit of paper saying they take responsibility, then Phil Fish is a prize cock! for not taking advantage of a fail and re-submission.

    Sony will charge if you have 3 FAILS! on a single submission, I suspect MS do the same.

    #28 2 years ago
  29. Zarckan

    @27 no he’s not…

    MS like Sony and Apple and everyone else take a 30% cut of the sales price. So the developer gets 70%

    There are NO situations where a publisher/developer PAYS a fee to a Platform holder for publishing.

    Liar!

    HE may owe money against advances, but seriously how much did it cost to make Fez, and how many units has it sold to do, and for what MSP ?!

    #29 2 years ago
  30. ManuOtaku

    This developer wanst the guy that said, more or less on these lines, that japanese developers nowadays were bad developers, that needed to check current trends from the eastern developers, etc, etc, well a game that had so many years in developemnt and all the talking and now this, please dont acuse other developers without taking a hard look at yourself.
    p.s and i love FEZ for the record, is a good game, but i dont support or like the kocky actitude, thats all, but is a good game, shame about the bugs, but i havent found yet any problems.

    #30 2 years ago
  31. Joe Musashi

    @16 I think your points would be dismissed by Phil Fish’s supporters on the grounds that “[Japanese] games suck”.

    An air-tight response if ever I heard one. And karma’s a bitch. ;)

    As to who has the burden of responsibility: the developer does.

    All the platform holders will demand you game goes through certification. There will always be bugs. To get through certification the platform holder will have you sign responsibility and accountability for those known bugs.

    Arguments about how one platform holder is better than another in this area are moot. Though given how the game is exclusive to one platform it is perhaps understandable that such assumptions get made.

    JM

    #31 2 years ago
  32. Joe Musashi

    Sorry, did I say exclusive? I guess I meant timed exclusive.

    JM

    #32 2 years ago
  33. daytripper

    What a sad state of affairs, it’s a great little game too with an amazing soundtrack. When it’s released on your platform of choice I’d still recommend picking it up.

    #33 2 years ago
  34. dreamcastnews

    Didn’t this sell a million copies? Surely they can afford to sort out the issues with it to be honest.

    I don’t feel any pity for the developers who get charged for patches, maybe they should ship complete products first time around eh?

    #34 2 years ago
  35. Cobra951

    A developer releases a game in a sorry state, then he’s annoyed that fixing it costs money. Nice.

    Here’s the procedure for this Fez patch:

    (1) Back up your game save(s).
    (2) Obtain patch.
    (3) Attempt to load your saved game.
    (4) Corrupt?
    – (No): You’re done!
    – (Yes): Delete patch, copy your backed-up saved game(s) back if needed.

    If there is no update file in the Fez directory to delete, then clear the system cache to accomplish the same thing.

    #35 2 years ago
  36. OlderGamer

    PC ftw. Again.

    Just some thoughts:

    MS shouldn’t cert a game with bugs. Period. If a game passes cert and still has bugs, MS also has an obligation and should share in the responsibility when it comes to getting it fixed. Extra fees to patch and fix something shouldn’t even be part of the equation.

    The very same game and base code can be bug free on one platform while having bugs on another. So many variables can cause problems. How the game code runs within the set peramiters of operating systems and hardware and just the smallest differences can effect the result. In a lab the game can act one way, in the wild it could be somewhat different results.

    In short, in todays game world, bugs happen. Priority should be on easily and quickly and cheaply squishing those bugs. MS should be a partener, not a leech.

    Seems to me that MS has lost sight that this industry is ‘possed to revolve around the paying customer. Not around MS. Make the customer happy, not profit off of their grief. XBL is a paid service, putting up barriers between the devs/pubs and the end user(paying for said service) is rather lame.

    I am with Slayer, and a growing number of people I talk to, MS can take a long walk off of a short dock. I have already canceled my Gold sub. I have been a paying gold member from the day it came out. No more, and no, not because of Fez. But because of MS. This situation is just one example of what I mean.

    No better advice can I give anyone, then to say buy a PC and enjoy gaming again. To small studios, you need to see the writting on the wall, stay away from MS and consoles in general. The console is designed to make the platform holder as much money as possible. They will screw you coming and going. They step on devs/pubs and customers alike.

    PC ftw. Period.

    #36 2 years ago
  37. speedxl01

    @32 Thanks for the info.

    ‏”@Polytron
    but HEY! only a few months left to our XBLA exclusivity!”

    I guess I will wait for a PSN release..

    #37 2 years ago
  38. Gadzooks!

    Can the PC evangelists pricks kindly fuck off to a place where people give a shit about them.

    Your elitist stench is not welcome.

    #38 2 years ago
  39. OlderGamer

    Nope, sorry Gad. Not going anywhere ;)

    #39 2 years ago
  40. daytripper

    @36 Understand what you are saying however there is a good chance I will want to play more than one exclusive console title and for that reason alone I could never go PC gaming only

    #40 2 years ago
  41. OlderGamer

    I am not PC exclusive either. For the same reason you mentioned Day.

    But:

    “As a small independent, paying so much money for patches makes NO SENSE AT ALL. especially when you consider the alternative. Had FEZ been released on steam instead of XBLA, the game would have been fixed two weeks after release, at no cost to us. And if there was an issue with that patch, we could have fixed that right away too,”

    …kind of speaks volumes.

    #41 2 years ago
  42. Phoenixblight

    THere is a price to pay for that consumer base all indie developers are taking a risk even more so by going on the consoles, its high stakes. THere are plenty of indie developers that have had quite a success on the consoles through XBLA.

    #42 2 years ago
  43. Da Man

    GZ, they think devs don’t know something they type, likely believe someone is being enlightened.. Let them be. I’m sure they already converted lots of people in their alt reality.

    Anyway, good advice with the PC, and some insightful comments about QA.

    Yep, develop for the most fragmented platform ever created, without anyone out there to help ensure quality. All that while theorizing about a plethora of circumstances surrounding one piece of hardware, running exactly the same version of dashboard.. I should probably try reading all these essays people post while wasted.

    #43 2 years ago
  44. Gadzooks!

    DM – Surely being able to e-peen at undetectable resolutions cancels out all the tedious shit that is inherent in PC gaming?

    It doesnt of course. Tried it, hated it, moved on.

    #44 2 years ago
  45. OlderGamer

    Ok Gad, so it is not for you. No big. But if you want to know why a lot of people are turning into what must seem to you like PC zelots, take a look at this link.

    It is a great read, and asks a great and needed question. The fact is the console platform holders have been(and I mean mostly MS) canibilizing the market for a while. The proof is in the pudding as they say. And a lot of people are turning to other platforms from mobile, social and Steam to find their fixes.

    I did. I used to be a dedicated xbox fan, you know that. But I have found something that fits me better, that I enjoy more. And I am far far far from alone. If MS and Sony get off of their asses and get on with the next gen, maybe they can recapture some of the magic back.

    But as it stands right now, today. Hell yes, PC please.

    Take a look:

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-07-19-roundtable-is-the-console-cycle-really-too-long

    #45 2 years ago
  46. Da Man

    Well said, GZ. Notice the hypocritical magical love for magical Nintendo. That same Nintendo which doesn’t even allow indies whatsoever.

    Good stuff, must be the magical mushrooms trip magically going wrong.

    #46 2 years ago
  47. OlderGamer

    WiiWare says hello Daman.

    I wouldn’t say that indies play a major part for Nintendo. Beleive it or not they don’t for any of the consoles. I did some research on digi sales for consoles. It is rather weak, esp when compared to mobile, social, PC.

    #47 2 years ago
  48. Ireland Michael

    @47 WiiWare exists, but it’s just as notoriously unfriendly.

    I love Nintendo’s games, and people here are well aware of my defence of Nintendo’s formats, but let’s not kid ourselves about the company itself – they’re a bit of a tyrant.

    All of the main console producers have their own series problems with the way they handle their online services. Microsoft is probably the least friendly. The only reasons devs flock to the service is because of the higher attach rates for downloadable content on the format.

    The only service that doesn’t seem to be trying to completely buttfuck the very people keeping them going right now is Steam.

    #48 2 years ago
  49. Da Man

    Oldman,

    that is

    very true .

    #49 2 years ago
  50. OlderGamer

    @mike yep, they always have been. I remember the whole Tengen thing. And the telling toys stores to only carry their games. But no where once did I say Nintendo was a shining example of how to treat indies.

    #50 2 years ago
  51. OlderGamer

    Daman, what does that prove?

    Your the one linking Nintendo to …what exactly? I can’t enjoy PC and Nintendo? I can’t critize MS because I like Nintendo games? Whats your point? Do you have one?

    And before you flap your mouth, show me where in this thread where I said MS should treat indies ideas the same kind way Nintendo does? I never even mentioned Nintndo. Your grasping and trolling again.

    “GZ, they think devs don’t know something they type, likely believe someone is being enlightened.. Let them be. I’m sure they already converted lots of people in their alt reality.”

    Go actualy read the link I posted and then come back and we can talk. You act like I am some rabid fanboy. Do you own a mirror? Anways a lot of people feel the same way I do about consoles right now.

    #51 2 years ago
  52. Ireland Michael

    @50 Da Man is right though. They really, really don’t support indies. Unless you’re already somehow established, they won’t even let you near the service.

    You may not have initially used Nintendo in your remark – he’s simply using your open appreciation for Nintendo’s games as an excuse to troll and insult you, because that’s what he does – but you did mention WiiWare to show that Nintendo supports indies. They don’t.

    #52 2 years ago
  53. OlderGamer

    I never said Nintendo was ideal for, or an oasis for indies on consoles. lol, score one for trolling.

    He said Nintendo doesn’t have indie games. It does, on WiiWare.

    #53 2 years ago
  54. Fin

    I’m pretty sure Indie games on XBLA are a big outlet for indie games, no?

    Also, saying Nintendo support indie games in any way, shape or form (“I wouldn’t say that indies play a major part for Nintendo.”) is laughable.
    I can name one indie games available on WiiWare off the top of my head (LostWinds), I challenge anyone to name any more without looking them up.

    #54 2 years ago
  55. Da Man

    You were going about indies, particularly Phil Fish here. Then you said MS and Sony ‘re cannibalizing the market. I suppose I should write an essay as to where I’m going with this.

    Do I have a point? Yes, I do. Do you have one though, I don’t think so. You’re just rambling.

    #55 2 years ago
  56. OlderGamer

    Cave Story, World of Goo, and Swords and Soliders pop into my mind.

    #56 2 years ago
  57. Ireland Michael

    @53 Almost none of them are “indie” games in the literal sense of the term, and they were published by people with reliable track records.

    @54 Lost Winds isn’t even an indie title. The company who developed that game has been in the industry for nearly two decades. Heck, those guys made Kinectimals.

    #57 2 years ago
  58. OlderGamer

    My point Daman is that the old style console biz model(and that includes Nintendo) combined with the extended lifecycle of this generation have driven many people to other gaming platforms. Such as Mobile, social, Steam.

    I was pointing out that I think it is better on Steam.

    You, good sir, get an A for effort, on trying to troll this away from what I had said and make it about something it wasn’t. Nicly done.

    #58 2 years ago
  59. OlderGamer

    Maybe, Mike, that just makes Nintendo more selective. Besides we both know that the true indie scene isn’t on(and arguably shouldn’t be on)(for the very reasons Fez has had) a console.

    #59 2 years ago
  60. Da Man

    Then I suggest you using Nintendo as an example of an outdated system more often, more so that they happen to be a shining example of that. Esp in the context of this thread.

    It’s not my fault your long winded, psychedelic essays are hard to decipher. If there were any efforts on my part, then there was one to try doing that.

    #60 2 years ago
  61. ManuOtaku

    #60 the thing is he didnt use Nintendo in this trend, he did put PC as a primary and only example, the one that did mentioned Nintendo for the first time in this trend was you on your post number 46.

    #61 2 years ago
  62. OlderGamer

    “To small studios, you need to see the writting on the wall, stay away from MS and consoles in general. The console is designed to make the platform holder as much money as possible. They will screw you coming and going. They step on devs/pubs and customers alike.”

    Just because you have a hard time reading Daman, i grabed the part where I said consoles. Here let me help:

    “stay away from MS and consoles in general.”

    That would also include Sony and Nintendo. I didn’t call them out, but I didn’t seperate them from the pack either. Consoles are harsh places for smaller devs/pubs. Even medium and larger sized pubs have been lossing a lot of cash this gen.

    Kidding aside, this could be what next gen consoles could be like. A place where only the big budget, big name franchise toting publishers can afford to be. More sequels please.

    #62 2 years ago
  63. Da Man

    In the next post you’re saying ‘mostly MS’.

    Why never comment on a Nintendo thread, casually noting how they treat indies. Well, I know why..

    And yes I did, so what. You bring up Halo and whatnot every time you want to go on about consoles sucking money out of customers.

    Anyway, consoles have always been the least friendliest for smaller ones, if anything this generation it became easier for even random people to put their content on marketplace.

    #63 2 years ago
  64. ManuOtaku

    #63 “Why never comment on a Nintendo thread, casually noting how they treat indies. Well, I know why”
    because according to your logic, if it does exists, you think nintendo dont have indie tittles, or support anything on those lines with their “old hardware”, so what he is going to discuss, if its something that does not exist, again according to your logic, please man, made up your mind for once.

    #64 2 years ago
  65. Da Man

    What I was saying is how you can comment on their stance, in the same manner as with the other ones.

    If the Xbox isn’t an open platform, you can still comment on the lack of openness, right. My logic is fine.

    #65 2 years ago
  66. OlderGamer

    Because Daman, Microsoft is seen as the industry leader. And when people see you as the figurehead for something, your going to get the lion share of attention, good or bad.

    #66 2 years ago
  67. ManuOtaku

    #65 “If the Xbox isn’t an open platform, you can still comment on the lack of openness, right. My logic is fine”
    why not? they are opening to other things non related to gaming, i just hope they took more openness were there is needed to, but sadly they are going other direction, which games are not the focus, either way i will support them just for the exclusives

    #67 2 years ago
  68. Fin

    @57

    Frontier isn’t owned by anyone, Lost Winds was self-published: they are indie.

    #68 2 years ago
  69. Gadzooks!

    Ninty havent come through for Indies in quite the same way as MS and to a lesser extent Sony, but they took a step in the right direction which is better than nothing.

    I suspect their online service may have made it harder than it might have been, and that’s only going to improve as WiiU is driving an improved, more integrated service.

    Obviously it’s easier to go indie on the PC because there are virtually no quality controls, but there’s a strong market for indies on consoles and money to be made there so everybody should be happy.

    As usual though the mouthy cocks desperate to make themselves seem superior or of more refined taste just can’t resist putting thier ‘opinion’ (troll) in our faces.

    Ego boosting. Its really fucking lame and boring.

    #69 2 years ago
  70. Cobra951

    Oh my . . . The comments really went off into left field here. Guys, this article is news about a *console* game. Grind all the axes you want, but there are better places for that, don’t you think?

    If independent devs thought they were getting a raw deal from MS, they would have walked off en masse. The fact is that the good ones are making a ton of money on XBL, even with the extra hurdles. Sorry if that ruins your day.

    #70 2 years ago
  71. OlderGamer

    Two things Gad, first up no one said Nintendo was an oasis for indies. Daman said no indeas where on Wii. That simply isn’t true. There are indeis on WiiWare. That is what I said.

    Secondly I invite you to do some research on digital sales(including indies) on xb360. They are not what you might think they are. One of the top selling titles for this gen on a console is Castle Crashers. CC has sold last I knew 2.7million units. lil over 2.5Million of them on xb360. Around 170K of them on PS3. That is miles ahead of most games. Miles. And Miles. Most digital games simply don’t sell that as well as alot of people think(as MS would like you to think).

    Alot of people like to say that year on year sales are down because of an uptake in the digital distribution. Simply not true. Digital games sell. And what is great about them is that a solid profit can be had from selling far less units then a big box retail game would have to sell. By their nature the digital offerings are smaller games that are cheaper to develop. So they are great. But they are not replacing lost retail sales.

    They are also not rolling in dough. Esp the indie stuff. There are suscess stories like I made a game with Zombies in it. But there are also games that don’t move 10K or even 5K units. Personialy I think it is great to even have those games on a console at all. I would also like to point out there is a difference(mostly) between the games labeled indie on the xb dash, and stuff like Fez or Minecraft.

    That being said PC is the prime spot for such games. But in truth, alot of what flys on XB Indie wouldn’t work on Steam. Esp the girl oriented or fart stuff, you know the ones I mean. So in some ways it is apples and oranges. Kind of indie for console market type stuff.

    A game like Fez should prolly have never even been aimed at xb to begin with. As a Steam game it would have done(and prolly will still do) great. It is a lil quirky, a lot of fun, and pretty solid. It has won a few awards and prolly was why MS was interested in the first place.

    But the eviroment is all wrong. And maybe even the audiance. Some of which the dev is finding out the hard way. They certianly aren’t the only ones to complain about consoles.

    It just is what it is. I know some of you guys are sick of reading about what flavor of awesome sauce(sorry been listening to my son lol) PC gaming is. And with the console market slumping on both hardware and software, it prolly bites and stings. Whatever. You can like what you like. But don’t get so pissy when someone else has a different pov.

    Maybe it won’t, maybe it will. But I am thinking someday the word console won’t be the end all be all of a gaming conversation. Not because of powerhouse desktops PCs, but instead of tablets and laptops that are light weight, mobile, and plug into your tv and work with wireless pads. I think it is headed in that type of direction. Fanboys be damned. Then what will you people do? When no one cares what you play on, only thing that will matter is what game you enjoy.

    Speaking of fanboys, don’t label me one. I am not. Not a Nintendo fanboy not a PC one. The fact that I used to be all about xb360 and yet now game almost exclusivly on PC proves that I am not a fanboy. I go where the games are that I get the most enjoyment out of. That could be a different place a year from now. That is a gamer, a consumer. I have owned everything.

    I am even looking to buy a handheld, for myself. The last one I bought was for my son and was a PSP. I played Phantasy Star Portable one and two on it. That was it. I am very strongly considering a 3dsXL. Why? Because it looks good and I like the games line up.

    Just because a gamer is a fan of a certian type of game, doesn’t a fanboy make. If it does I would be a fanboy of Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega, EA, THQ, etc, get the idea? I can tell you that for the most part I have completly fallen out of love with this current gen. I am sick of it. I hate the endless sequels. The big name franchises. I don’t like Ass Cred, Halo, Uncharted, Gears, Forza, or just about anything else you can prolly name. So much samness, so bland, so boring. And I used to enjoy those games and many more. I just honestly don’t any more. I still love gaming. That is why I have the link in there. Because there are a shit load of people that feel the same way.

    I went to gamestop this week(it is next to where our family gets our hair cut). I was talking with the guy in there, he claims to not have turned his xbox360 on in six months. I asked him if he stoped playing games, he laughed. Said he plays on ipad and PC.

    What does that mean? Not a damn thing. Just OG on a rant again. Unless you wanna read between the lines. Read the link. Get a feel for why people(including me) are ranting at all.

    The shortest answer of all I can give you: ten year long generation cycles don’t work. You lose gamers.

    Maybe no one lost you, and I bet a lot of people here(while excited about new hardware) would snicker at my statement. But I’d like to leave you with a number and a thought: 1/3rd. That is how many less people are buying console games this year compared to last year. Year on year have been down for 7 straight months. And over all numbers have been in decline for nearly four years.

    Maybe, just maybe there might be something to it. That and Next gen can’t get here fast enough, imo.

    #71 2 years ago
  72. Da Man

    How exactly are Fez devs finding the ‘environment’ wrong, and the hard way at that? They’ve burned several years on development of a simple videogame, and released it in a state that needed patching..

    Sad truth is, unfortunately, that the diff in audience between Pc and consoles isn’t in what you want to believe. Not at all. Pc gamers are mostly socially isolated, issue ridden guys, mostly male. Funnily enough, the success of Mmmos and high demand for grinding games shows that very well.. If you disagree that mmos are a sad substitute for socializing, and keep on going about CoD being a game for kids or casuals at that then, well, I don’t know what to say aside from that you probably should try being more open minded before pointing it out in others..

    No offense, just saying.

    Fez did well, just like lots of other indie and quirky titles in general. From InsTw Shadow Planet to Winterbottom and those Posn ones. You”ve just tricked yourself into thinking that way.

    Besides how many have a PC which is able to run those, and how many have an Xbox? Hardly to do much with the audience.

    #72 2 years ago
  73. OlderGamer

    By enviroment I was talking about:

    “As a small independent, paying so much money for patches makes NO SENSE AT ALL. especially when you consider the alternative. Had FEZ been released on steam instead of XBLA, the game would have been fixed two weeks after release, at no cost to us. And if there was an issue with that patch, we could have fixed that right away too,”

    As for your view of PC players:

    “Pc gamers are mostly socially isolated, issue ridden guys, mostly male. Funnily enough, the success of Mmmos and high demand for grinding games shows that very well.. If you disagree that mmos are a sad substitute for socializing,”

    That is amazing. Last nite I spent a few hours playing Diablo III with my wife, her brother, and his wife. I play wow. And a good 30% to 40% of my guild are women, including the GM. Daman this isn’t 1995 anymore.

    I think a lot of women play on PC(and mobile). Alot of games have been made and aimed squarly at female players. And they sell extremly well. My wife has her own steam account and it is filled with popcap games.

    The thing about most indie games is that the selling feature is often something other then graphics. So your assumption that:

    “Besides how many have a PC which is able to run those, and how many have an Xbox? Hardly to do much with the audience.”

    Is also off base. Far more people own PC(and again mobile) then own an xbox. Esp females. They could easily have a laptop with a handfull of casual games compared to owning an xbox. My wife uses our xbox, even has one of her own. But trust me it isn’t the same. Also, the indie games that you mentioned can run on almost anything. They don’t take dedicated graphical powerhouse cards or systems.

    Fact is females game prolly a lot more then you might think. And they don’t all own kinect dance games either. my 19year old son is flying in today from Cali(he is in air force), and one of the first things he is going to do is chalange his mom(yes his mom)to a few rounds of Tekken. Because so far he hasn’t, I kid you not, been able to beat her at it. And it just eats at him haha. I won’t play her, I know better. She laughs when she wins.

    Anyways I have a lot of threads to look at today, but sadly have to go. Family furneral. Peace.

    #73 2 years ago
  74. Da Man

    Oldman, I don’t have whole day to dedicate either. Just turned on the computer.

    So anyway, I don’t know what kind of females are those, and I was talking about randoms you meet, not your relatives or friends.. Females or not it doesn’t make it any less sad.. And besides it’s no more amazing than your theories about CoD audience, so why act surprised.

    Hardcore PC gamers are sad.

    As for Xbox and PC customers I was saying how there ‘re more of the latter ones out there.. Perhaps I didn’t word it properly.

    #74 2 years ago
  75. monkeygourmet

    I can’t believe how unprofessional some of these ‘hipster’ new developers are.

    So full of bullshit… What greedy arseholes.

    Fact is, we all understand MS’s stance on updates. This guy would have entered into acontract understanding this, yet he still releases a buggy game, then feels he has the right to bite the hand that is feeding him…

    It was his mistake. In the Indie Game movie, he was displaying Fez at a games show. The thing was constantly crashing and freezing. That was months before it came to XBLA and after an eternity in development.

    To turn round and blame MS because you don’t want to cut into your profits and fix the issue is an option, just have the balls to say thts your reasoning behind it, rather than make up some bullshit about MS’s certification process (that you would have been fully aware of from the start.)

    Same goes with team Meat. Release the game then bitch about your boss. Very classy guys.

    Im not defending MS completly, but all these guys proclaiming themselves to be the saviours of gaming, saving us from multi national companies that are churning out COD clones, are really starting to piss me off…

    Just go PC if you really want to have more creative control, Steam is there waiting for you.

    Don’t cash the money then complain when it didn’t go exactly as you had planned…

    #75 2 years ago
  76. Parthon

    Wow. Just wow monkeygourmet. Did you just dive off the bridge of sanity into the river of totally bonkers?

    Bugs in software happens all the time, that’s why there are patches. MS is nice enough to offer one free patch because of this reason. Fez wasn’t any more buggy than other games released on the system. The problem is that the patch’s 1% bug, which are bloody hard to find yet alone fix, made MS pull the patch. This put Fez in the awkward position of either paying lots for patching the patch, or just leaving the better, but still flawed, patch up there. As they said, they are sorry, but they could afford to fix the patch. As for the demonstration being buggy, the demo at the convention was mid-development when the product is unfinished and full of bugs. Judging a released game based on an alpha build is just retarded.

    The reason behind their deliberation was purely the cost of doing a second patch. Yes, it would cost $10,000 or more to do another patch. That’s not blaming MS for the cost, or for having to patch again, that’s just the reality of the situation. $10k for a patch. All the blame and reasoning is all your conjecture that you are reading into it.

    When the hell have these people been “proclaiming themselves to be the saviours of gaming, saving us from multi national companies that are churning out COD clones”. Nice strawman argument there. All these people wanted to do is make games, not change the world, or save us all. Sheesh. You act like they’ve personally insulted your honor or something. Please get some perspective.

    Lastly, yeah, “profit”. Super Meat Boy made ten times as much money on steam as it did on XBLA. MS are NOT a good company to deal with. They have strict rules and nasty penalties, while at the same time fail to deliver on their promises. The only thing I agree on is that all indie devs should go to PC, because the consoles are a terrible platform for indies. If you want real profit, you’ll need to release it on a real system.

    #76 1 year ago