Fez patch back online, fix would cost “a ton of money”

Daman, what does that prove?

Your the one linking Nintendo to …what exactly? I can’t enjoy PC and Nintendo? I can’t critize MS because I like Nintendo games? Whats your point? Do you have one?

And before you flap your mouth, show me where in this thread where I said MS should treat indies ideas the same kind way Nintendo does? I never even mentioned Nintndo. Your grasping and trolling again.

“GZ, they think devs don’t know something they type, likely believe someone is being enlightened.. Let them be. I’m sure they already converted lots of people in their alt reality.”

Go actualy read the link I posted and then come back and we can talk. You act like I am some rabid fanboy. Do you own a mirror? Anways a lot of people feel the same way I do about consoles right now.

@50 Da Man is right though. They really, really don’t support indies. Unless you’re already somehow established, they won’t even let you near the service.

You may not have initially used Nintendo in your remark – he’s simply using your open appreciation for Nintendo’s games as an excuse to troll and insult you, because that’s what he does – but you did mention WiiWare to show that Nintendo supports indies. They don’t.

I never said Nintendo was ideal for, or an oasis for indies on consoles. lol, score one for trolling.

He said Nintendo doesn’t have indie games. It does, on WiiWare.

I’m pretty sure Indie games on XBLA are a big outlet for indie games, no?

Also, saying Nintendo support indie games in any way, shape or form (“I wouldn’t say that indies play a major part for Nintendo.”) is laughable.
I can name one indie games available on WiiWare off the top of my head (LostWinds), I challenge anyone to name any more without looking them up.

You were going about indies, particularly Phil Fish here. Then you said MS and Sony ‘re cannibalizing the market. I suppose I should write an essay as to where I’m going with this.

Do I have a point? Yes, I do. Do you have one though, I don’t think so. You’re just rambling.

Cave Story, World of Goo, and Swords and Soliders pop into my mind.

@53 Almost none of them are “indie” games in the literal sense of the term, and they were published by people with reliable track records.

@54 Lost Winds isn’t even an indie title. The company who developed that game has been in the industry for nearly two decades. Heck, those guys made Kinectimals.

My point Daman is that the old style console biz model(and that includes Nintendo) combined with the extended lifecycle of this generation have driven many people to other gaming platforms. Such as Mobile, social, Steam.

I was pointing out that I think it is better on Steam.

You, good sir, get an A for effort, on trying to troll this away from what I had said and make it about something it wasn’t. Nicly done.

Maybe, Mike, that just makes Nintendo more selective. Besides we both know that the true indie scene isn’t on(and arguably shouldn’t be on)(for the very reasons Fez has had) a console.

Then I suggest you using Nintendo as an example of an outdated system more often, more so that they happen to be a shining example of that. Esp in the context of this thread.

It’s not my fault your long winded, psychedelic essays are hard to decipher. If there were any efforts on my part, then there was one to try doing that.

#60 the thing is he didnt use Nintendo in this trend, he did put PC as a primary and only example, the one that did mentioned Nintendo for the first time in this trend was you on your post number 46.

“To small studios, you need to see the writting on the wall, stay away from MS and consoles in general. The console is designed to make the platform holder as much money as possible. They will screw you coming and going. They step on devs/pubs and customers alike.”

Just because you have a hard time reading Daman, i grabed the part where I said consoles. Here let me help:

“stay away from MS and consoles in general.”

That would also include Sony and Nintendo. I didn’t call them out, but I didn’t seperate them from the pack either. Consoles are harsh places for smaller devs/pubs. Even medium and larger sized pubs have been lossing a lot of cash this gen.

Kidding aside, this could be what next gen consoles could be like. A place where only the big budget, big name franchise toting publishers can afford to be. More sequels please.

In the next post you’re saying ‘mostly MS’.

Why never comment on a Nintendo thread, casually noting how they treat indies. Well, I know why..

And yes I did, so what. You bring up Halo and whatnot every time you want to go on about consoles sucking money out of customers.

Anyway, consoles have always been the least friendliest for smaller ones, if anything this generation it became easier for even random people to put their content on marketplace.

#63 “Why never comment on a Nintendo thread, casually noting how they treat indies. Well, I know why”
because according to your logic, if it does exists, you think nintendo dont have indie tittles, or support anything on those lines with their “old hardware”, so what he is going to discuss, if its something that does not exist, again according to your logic, please man, made up your mind for once.

What I was saying is how you can comment on their stance, in the same manner as with the other ones.

If the Xbox isn’t an open platform, you can still comment on the lack of openness, right. My logic is fine.

Because Daman, Microsoft is seen as the industry leader. And when people see you as the figurehead for something, your going to get the lion share of attention, good or bad.

#65 “If the Xbox isn’t an open platform, you can still comment on the lack of openness, right. My logic is fine”
why not? they are opening to other things non related to gaming, i just hope they took more openness were there is needed to, but sadly they are going other direction, which games are not the focus, either way i will support them just for the exclusives

@57

Frontier isn’t owned by anyone, Lost Winds was self-published: they are indie.

Ninty havent come through for Indies in quite the same way as MS and to a lesser extent Sony, but they took a step in the right direction which is better than nothing.

I suspect their online service may have made it harder than it might have been, and that’s only going to improve as WiiU is driving an improved, more integrated service.

Obviously it’s easier to go indie on the PC because there are virtually no quality controls, but there’s a strong market for indies on consoles and money to be made there so everybody should be happy.

As usual though the mouthy cocks desperate to make themselves seem superior or of more refined taste just can’t resist putting thier ‘opinion’ (troll) in our faces.

Ego boosting. Its really fucking lame and boring.

Oh my . . . The comments really went off into left field here. Guys, this article is news about a *console* game. Grind all the axes you want, but there are better places for that, don’t you think?

If independent devs thought they were getting a raw deal from MS, they would have walked off en masse. The fact is that the good ones are making a ton of money on XBL, even with the extra hurdles. Sorry if that ruins your day.

Two things Gad, first up no one said Nintendo was an oasis for indies. Daman said no indeas where on Wii. That simply isn’t true. There are indeis on WiiWare. That is what I said.

Secondly I invite you to do some research on digital sales(including indies) on xb360. They are not what you might think they are. One of the top selling titles for this gen on a console is Castle Crashers. CC has sold last I knew 2.7million units. lil over 2.5Million of them on xb360. Around 170K of them on PS3. That is miles ahead of most games. Miles. And Miles. Most digital games simply don’t sell that as well as alot of people think(as MS would like you to think).

Alot of people like to say that year on year sales are down because of an uptake in the digital distribution. Simply not true. Digital games sell. And what is great about them is that a solid profit can be had from selling far less units then a big box retail game would have to sell. By their nature the digital offerings are smaller games that are cheaper to develop. So they are great. But they are not replacing lost retail sales.

They are also not rolling in dough. Esp the indie stuff. There are suscess stories like I made a game with Zombies in it. But there are also games that don’t move 10K or even 5K units. Personialy I think it is great to even have those games on a console at all. I would also like to point out there is a difference(mostly) between the games labeled indie on the xb dash, and stuff like Fez or Minecraft.

That being said PC is the prime spot for such games. But in truth, alot of what flys on XB Indie wouldn’t work on Steam. Esp the girl oriented or fart stuff, you know the ones I mean. So in some ways it is apples and oranges. Kind of indie for console market type stuff.

A game like Fez should prolly have never even been aimed at xb to begin with. As a Steam game it would have done(and prolly will still do) great. It is a lil quirky, a lot of fun, and pretty solid. It has won a few awards and prolly was why MS was interested in the first place.

But the eviroment is all wrong. And maybe even the audiance. Some of which the dev is finding out the hard way. They certianly aren’t the only ones to complain about consoles.

It just is what it is. I know some of you guys are sick of reading about what flavor of awesome sauce(sorry been listening to my son lol) PC gaming is. And with the console market slumping on both hardware and software, it prolly bites and stings. Whatever. You can like what you like. But don’t get so pissy when someone else has a different pov.

Maybe it won’t, maybe it will. But I am thinking someday the word console won’t be the end all be all of a gaming conversation. Not because of powerhouse desktops PCs, but instead of tablets and laptops that are light weight, mobile, and plug into your tv and work with wireless pads. I think it is headed in that type of direction. Fanboys be damned. Then what will you people do? When no one cares what you play on, only thing that will matter is what game you enjoy.

Speaking of fanboys, don’t label me one. I am not. Not a Nintendo fanboy not a PC one. The fact that I used to be all about xb360 and yet now game almost exclusivly on PC proves that I am not a fanboy. I go where the games are that I get the most enjoyment out of. That could be a different place a year from now. That is a gamer, a consumer. I have owned everything.

I am even looking to buy a handheld, for myself. The last one I bought was for my son and was a PSP. I played Phantasy Star Portable one and two on it. That was it. I am very strongly considering a 3dsXL. Why? Because it looks good and I like the games line up.

Just because a gamer is a fan of a certian type of game, doesn’t a fanboy make. If it does I would be a fanboy of Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega, EA, THQ, etc, get the idea? I can tell you that for the most part I have completly fallen out of love with this current gen. I am sick of it. I hate the endless sequels. The big name franchises. I don’t like Ass Cred, Halo, Uncharted, Gears, Forza, or just about anything else you can prolly name. So much samness, so bland, so boring. And I used to enjoy those games and many more. I just honestly don’t any more. I still love gaming. That is why I have the link in there. Because there are a shit load of people that feel the same way.

I went to gamestop this week(it is next to where our family gets our hair cut). I was talking with the guy in there, he claims to not have turned his xbox360 on in six months. I asked him if he stoped playing games, he laughed. Said he plays on ipad and PC.

What does that mean? Not a damn thing. Just OG on a rant again. Unless you wanna read between the lines. Read the link. Get a feel for why people(including me) are ranting at all.

The shortest answer of all I can give you: ten year long generation cycles don’t work. You lose gamers.

Maybe no one lost you, and I bet a lot of people here(while excited about new hardware) would snicker at my statement. But I’d like to leave you with a number and a thought: 1/3rd. That is how many less people are buying console games this year compared to last year. Year on year have been down for 7 straight months. And over all numbers have been in decline for nearly four years.

Maybe, just maybe there might be something to it. That and Next gen can’t get here fast enough, imo.

How exactly are Fez devs finding the ‘environment’ wrong, and the hard way at that? They’ve burned several years on development of a simple videogame, and released it in a state that needed patching..

Sad truth is, unfortunately, that the diff in audience between Pc and consoles isn’t in what you want to believe. Not at all. Pc gamers are mostly socially isolated, issue ridden guys, mostly male. Funnily enough, the success of Mmmos and high demand for grinding games shows that very well.. If you disagree that mmos are a sad substitute for socializing, and keep on going about CoD being a game for kids or casuals at that then, well, I don’t know what to say aside from that you probably should try being more open minded before pointing it out in others..

No offense, just saying.

Fez did well, just like lots of other indie and quirky titles in general. From InsTw Shadow Planet to Winterbottom and those Posn ones. You”ve just tricked yourself into thinking that way.

Besides how many have a PC which is able to run those, and how many have an Xbox? Hardly to do much with the audience.

By enviroment I was talking about:

“As a small independent, paying so much money for patches makes NO SENSE AT ALL. especially when you consider the alternative. Had FEZ been released on steam instead of XBLA, the game would have been fixed two weeks after release, at no cost to us. And if there was an issue with that patch, we could have fixed that right away too,”

As for your view of PC players:

“Pc gamers are mostly socially isolated, issue ridden guys, mostly male. Funnily enough, the success of Mmmos and high demand for grinding games shows that very well.. If you disagree that mmos are a sad substitute for socializing,”

That is amazing. Last nite I spent a few hours playing Diablo III with my wife, her brother, and his wife. I play wow. And a good 30% to 40% of my guild are women, including the GM. Daman this isn’t 1995 anymore.

I think a lot of women play on PC(and mobile). Alot of games have been made and aimed squarly at female players. And they sell extremly well. My wife has her own steam account and it is filled with popcap games.

The thing about most indie games is that the selling feature is often something other then graphics. So your assumption that:

“Besides how many have a PC which is able to run those, and how many have an Xbox? Hardly to do much with the audience.”

Is also off base. Far more people own PC(and again mobile) then own an xbox. Esp females. They could easily have a laptop with a handfull of casual games compared to owning an xbox. My wife uses our xbox, even has one of her own. But trust me it isn’t the same. Also, the indie games that you mentioned can run on almost anything. They don’t take dedicated graphical powerhouse cards or systems.

Fact is females game prolly a lot more then you might think. And they don’t all own kinect dance games either. my 19year old son is flying in today from Cali(he is in air force), and one of the first things he is going to do is chalange his mom(yes his mom)to a few rounds of Tekken. Because so far he hasn’t, I kid you not, been able to beat her at it. And it just eats at him haha. I won’t play her, I know better. She laughs when she wins.

Anyways I have a lot of threads to look at today, but sadly have to go. Family furneral. Peace.

Oldman, I don’t have whole day to dedicate either. Just turned on the computer.

So anyway, I don’t know what kind of females are those, and I was talking about randoms you meet, not your relatives or friends.. Females or not it doesn’t make it any less sad.. And besides it’s no more amazing than your theories about CoD audience, so why act surprised.

Hardcore PC gamers are sad.

As for Xbox and PC customers I was saying how there ‘re more of the latter ones out there.. Perhaps I didn’t word it properly.

I can’t believe how unprofessional some of these ‘hipster’ new developers are.

So full of bullshit… What greedy arseholes.

Fact is, we all understand MS’s stance on updates. This guy would have entered into acontract understanding this, yet he still releases a buggy game, then feels he has the right to bite the hand that is feeding him…

It was his mistake. In the Indie Game movie, he was displaying Fez at a games show. The thing was constantly crashing and freezing. That was months before it came to XBLA and after an eternity in development.

To turn round and blame MS because you don’t want to cut into your profits and fix the issue is an option, just have the balls to say thts your reasoning behind it, rather than make up some bullshit about MS’s certification process (that you would have been fully aware of from the start.)

Same goes with team Meat. Release the game then bitch about your boss. Very classy guys.

Im not defending MS completly, but all these guys proclaiming themselves to be the saviours of gaming, saving us from multi national companies that are churning out COD clones, are really starting to piss me off…

Just go PC if you really want to have more creative control, Steam is there waiting for you.

Don’t cash the money then complain when it didn’t go exactly as you had planned…

Wow. Just wow monkeygourmet. Did you just dive off the bridge of sanity into the river of totally bonkers?

Bugs in software happens all the time, that’s why there are patches. MS is nice enough to offer one free patch because of this reason. Fez wasn’t any more buggy than other games released on the system. The problem is that the patch’s 1% bug, which are bloody hard to find yet alone fix, made MS pull the patch. This put Fez in the awkward position of either paying lots for patching the patch, or just leaving the better, but still flawed, patch up there. As they said, they are sorry, but they could afford to fix the patch. As for the demonstration being buggy, the demo at the convention was mid-development when the product is unfinished and full of bugs. Judging a released game based on an alpha build is just retarded.

The reason behind their deliberation was purely the cost of doing a second patch. Yes, it would cost $10,000 or more to do another patch. That’s not blaming MS for the cost, or for having to patch again, that’s just the reality of the situation. $10k for a patch. All the blame and reasoning is all your conjecture that you are reading into it.

When the hell have these people been “proclaiming themselves to be the saviours of gaming, saving us from multi national companies that are churning out COD clones”. Nice strawman argument there. All these people wanted to do is make games, not change the world, or save us all. Sheesh. You act like they’ve personally insulted your honor or something. Please get some perspective.

Lastly, yeah, “profit”. Super Meat Boy made ten times as much money on steam as it did on XBLA. MS are NOT a good company to deal with. They have strict rules and nasty penalties, while at the same time fail to deliver on their promises. The only thing I agree on is that all indie devs should go to PC, because the consoles are a terrible platform for indies. If you want real profit, you’ll need to release it on a real system.