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Lack of females in Colonial Marines leads to petition

Wednesday, 4th July 2012 23:30 GMT By Dave Oshry

Apparently there will be no females in the multiplayer portion of Aliens: Colonial Marines.  Ripley and Vasquez are not amused.

In this petition started by one “Melissa K.” she alleges that Colonial Marines producer Brian Burleson has said there will be no female characters in multiplayer.

“This is unacceptable for a game that makes such claims as are listed on its official website, made after a film franchise that has many strong female characters like Ripley, Vasquez, Ferro and Dietrich to name a few. There is roughly 5-6 months before the game goes Gold and releases February 12th, 2013 so we need to let them know NOW that they are not being true to the ALIENS universe by not including the ability to play as a female in Multiplayer.”

Well alright then.  We’ve reached out to Sigourney Weaver for comment.

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117 Comments

  1. Phoenixblight

    Good luck with that. 6 months to release is not enough time to introduce new assets. They would be in the QA phase so they would have to have a delay in order to meet the demands and I doubt Sega would be willing to do so.

    #1 3 years ago
  2. Ireland Michael

    @1 It would take very little time to add new character models to the game. Absolutely nothing is stopping them from making it part of an update, and if the game hasn’t been locked down for printing yet, they have no excuse.

    It’s pretty bloody embarrassing, to be honest. How do you “forget” to put something like this in the game? For Christ sake, this is Alien, which has some of the strongest female characters ever seen in… anything, ever. This is the franchise that gave us Ripley, for fuck sake.

    What a fucking insult to fans.

    #2 3 years ago
  3. Phoenixblight

    @2

    You may think that but the smallest thing at this crucial period of time can break the game. AN update maybe but that again comes to Sega who are the ones that are publishing the game and were most likely the ones that gave the order for no females in Multiplayer.

    The last two months of development are saved for certification by the publisher and then the console manufacturer so that leaves 3-4 months for them to test the game to make sure it meets qualifications.

    If they were to make a female model they not only have to model, texture and uv it but also animate it before they even implement in the game then they have to make sure this new asset works accordingly.

    #3 3 years ago
  4. Ireland Michael

    @3 No, it wouldn’t. How the hell would adding gendered soldiers “break the game”?

    I highly doubt they were ordered to do it. It’s just boils down to the typical stupidity of a male driven industry. This is nothing but chauvinistic bullshit.

    #4 3 years ago
  5. Phoenixblight

    @4

    Oh right because Borderlands didn’t have females in the game? oh wait. You don’t have experience with this process so you clearly have no place to say what does or doesn’t work.

    #5 3 years ago
  6. Ireland Michael

    @5 By that very same logic, neither do you.

    #6 3 years ago
  7. Phoenixblight

    @6

    Oh but I do work for a game developer so I kind of do have experience with these sort of things.

    #7 3 years ago
  8. Giskard

    @4 This isn’t chauvinistic bullshit. Male models are easier to design, and to be fair, I just don’t care what gender the characters are. Neither do most people.

    #8 3 years ago
  9. Dave Oshry

    @8 But Melissa K. cares!

    #9 3 years ago
  10. Talkar

    For crying out loud, what is the matter with people demanding both sexes to be equally represented in everything? Honestly, i don’t care if there is no male or female characters, i weigh the gameplay over a few extra pixels.

    #10 3 years ago
  11. Ireland Michael

    @10 There’s a big difference between “both sexes being equally represented in everything” and “one gender being constantly dismissed”.

    But hey, this is something most men can’t seem to comprehend. I’d love to see how they felt if they suddenly started to get treated the same way.

    #11 3 years ago
  12. Talkar

    @11
    As i said, i couldn’t care less. If the nexxt Call of Duty or Battlefield game didn’t contain any male characters, i wouldn’t give a shit. I don’t play games for the graphics or politics (which people apparently see even where there is none), i play games because they are fun. But i guess most can’t comprehend that either eh?
    EDIT: Since your nitpicking my choice of words, i might aswell do the same to you. You’re saying females are “constantly” being dismissed in games. Now let me explain to you what constantly means. Constantly means that something is happening all the time, every time, persistently, et cetera. So you are saying there are no games in the world with females in them. I think you should expand you’re games library past Space Invaders.

    #12 3 years ago
  13. Ireland Michael

    @12 You might not give a shit if the next Call of Duty did that, but there would be millions of male gamers out there who would be in an outrage about it. But hey, if the woman complain… whatever right? They’re just girls! It’s what they do, right?

    *spit*

    I’d love to see female soldiers on the front line, but the sad reality is that most armies don’t even allow it.

    #13 3 years ago
  14. DSB

    I can see how it makes sense for Aliens, because Ripley, duh, but yeah, most militaries don’t allow women in a frontline role.

    Personally I think gender neutrality is an oxymoron.

    #14 3 years ago
  15. Clupula

    There’s actually a debate in the American government right now to change that.

    #15 3 years ago
  16. TheWulf

    I’m with Mike on this one.

    And I’m overwhelmed by the stench of misogyny rising up from some of these comments. Holy fuck. This is only days after I had to explain to some fuckwit that boobs or the absence of boobs do not define gender, and that you’re probably ruining a transgendered person’s day when you think like that.

    This is the same kind of misogynist, woman-hating bullshit.

    In an IP which has had some of the strongest women we’ve seen, hell, one of the strongest leading women we’ve seen, with a military that clearly doesn’t discriminate against gender… why… why… would you leave out a gender?

    Of all the IPs to use to showcase male empowerment and superiority.

    FFS.

    Oh well. I had an idea that this was going to be utter garbage from day one.

    #16 3 years ago
  17. Aimless

    I’m not seeing any misogyny here, just unfortunate pragmatism: given all the other demands on a game’s budget, creating another set of character models — with appropriate animations, voice work, etc — ostensibly doesn’t make economic sense given the target demographic.

    Not saying they shouldn’t have female characters — a choice of gender should be a given for any game than asks you to personalise an avatar — but there’s no reason to get all holier-than-thou about a perfectly understandable situation. If you want to raise awareness then sign the petition or otherwise try to enter into a reasonable dialogue, casting aspersions on everyone just makes you look like an arse.

    #17 3 years ago
  18. Giskard

    @17 Yup, I agree.

    @Mike, TheWulf Just because we disagree with you don’t mean we hate women. They’re nice and all. They’re just not in this game. Just as there was no male protagonist in Mirror’s Edge. I seriously couldn’t care less, if the game’s good. It’s not like my gender depends on what kind of pixely model I’ll play in a video game. Got forbid I get confused!

    #18 3 years ago
  19. Henry

    “We’ve reached out to Sigourney Weaver for comment.”

    For real? Or just joking?

    #19 3 years ago
  20. Da Man

    Outrageous, they don’t allow me to play as an imaginary woman. I live in an alternative reality where women are men, men are women and kids are FBI agents. And all are equally intelligent, strong and sensitive.

    I always wanted to be born a female. How sad.

    #20 3 years ago
  21. Christopher Jack

    Fact is, men will always be associated with war, we’re always going to be much more animalistic than our female counterparts so it’s only natural to put us in fighting situations.

    I do think it was pretty lazy of them to neglect the female fans, but I personally don’t care too much, I mean, I can kind of sympathize with this woman’s plight, but the way I play games I don’t care about gender- granted I tend to pick a male character when given that option, I don’t create a protest for the lack of that option.

    I also get it that the franchise is famous for having woman in major roles, but again, I didn’t consider their genders while watching the films either, what’s so special about a strong man over a woman or vice-versa?

    #21 3 years ago
  22. Talkar

    @13
    Again, why do you even care what millions of others think? Are you not capable of forming an opinion of your own, respect others, and the respectfully ignore it?
    Christ on a stick. If there are females in this game, i don’t care. If there aren’t females in this game, i don’t care. And the same goes for their counterpart.

    #22 3 years ago
  23. roadkill

    LOL!! You gotta love stupid females with their stupid requests. It makes for a funny world. :)) That being said, I do prefer playing as a male character, though I wouldn’t start a petition if I couldn’t. That’s just downright pathetic.

    #23 3 years ago
  24. StolenGlory

    @4

    Indeed and many people are going at it with the wrong tack here using Ripley as some sort of comparison or justification.

    Ripley came along as a fucking observer to that mission (in the film), because of her previous experience with the Xenomorph. There was already a hard-as-nails female Colonial Marine present – Vasquez.

    It amazes me still that people forget about her and by proxy, why people cannot comprehend why there would be a female marine present in the game.

    #24 3 years ago
  25. Da Man

    If you care so much about it, you have wayyy bigger issues than video games.

    #25 3 years ago
  26. StolenGlory

    @25

    On the whole, this is true actually – it’s not a terribly pressing issue at all; I just couldn’t work out why nobody thought about Vasquez in their arguments is all.

    If my comment appeared to be overzealous, it was merely me just being surprised about the reactions in the thread, rather than the topic being the center of my Universe or anything :)

    #26 3 years ago
  27. Panda

    @20 LOL agreed

    Hell YEAH….the less women in videogames the better!!
    They won’t give a shit about your damn fiminism-petitions =D

    #27 3 years ago
  28. schnide

    Ireland Michael – well written, considerate and eloquent posts. Phoenixblight has no idea how game development works. Even Dave Oshry’s story and subsequent comment suggests a level of sexism.

    I love* the default position of half the people on this thread, and indeed seemingly the vocal gamers in general on the internet, whose rationalisation goes along the lines of:

    “I don’t care about [issue x], so no-one else does either!”

    (*sarcasm. I’m really just calling you genuinely ignorant of other people’s points of view)

    #28 3 years ago
  29. Patrick Garratt

    Considering the Aliens movies contained frontline female soldiers, it seems a bit silly to leave them out.

    #29 3 years ago
  30. Patrick Garratt

    Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsuSpei9cf8

    #30 3 years ago
  31. Christopher Jack

    Pretty much, I get it, just don’t care. Wouldn’t go so far as to call the devs sexist, but the franchise is one of the few that shows masculine woman & they could have tried to cover all bases by at least including one female in a major role.

    #31 3 years ago
  32. knuck

    My god, what has become of the videogames industry? One petition like this for every game who has no female, then one petition asking for females to be designed one specific way, then another one for adding the option of having transgendered characters… and if you merely *think* maybe it was out of their budget or just a creative decision not to have any of that, you’re a WHITE HETEROSEXUAL CIS-GENDERED WOMEN-HATER FACIST.

    African americans never did that, why, why must feminists do that? Where does the entitlement for dictating how creative works should be written comes from?

    #32 3 years ago
  33. silkvg247

    @32 She’s a feminist because she has an opinion that female avatars should be in a game where the original “lore” is rich in female characters?

    Also, I don’t see how comparing “complete exclusion of the female race” has even any small resemblance to any of your other examples.

    #33 3 years ago
  34. silkvg247

    See this, right here, is the very worst form of sexism. It isn’t under-dressing women in sexy bikini style armour. It isn’t making your only female character serve no purpose other than a love interest, or having your only female(s) act as braindead bimbos or sex objects. Don’t get me wrong, those all do mildly irritate me, but it’s acceptable.

    This, however, is complete exclusion. The ultimate insult.

    I accept no excuses. I have the same low opinion on any Multiplayer game which lacks females. It’s why I don’t play tf2, though I did for a short while. I have never purchased a MP game which has this rather insulting omission.

    I do not accept the excuse that it is easier to create and animate male models. I come from the era of Quake 2 onwards, where every single multiplayer game had female avatars from launch. If they could do it, you better damn believe today’s developers can do it; they have a much easier time of it too with prebuilt engines that simply didn’t exist back then. It is easier than ever to build and include new assets in your games.

    I do not accept the excuse that the game setting or story only lends itself to males. Unless it is some sort of comedic game (like tf2, which is why I did play it for a bit) then it actually takes away from the immersion to only have one gender in there. Last time I checked, there are females in wars. There are female commanders.

    If a game had you play non-gendered characters of some sort then I don’t think anyone would care either way. But if you include one gender in your game, then you should include both. I would have thought it goes without saying really.

    An Alien game, as many have pointed out, has even less excuse, because of Ripley and other strong female leads. Gee the toughest person in the entire series was female, let’s exclude females from the game, hurrp durp.

    I do not view any of this as “women hating” but exclusion is sexism, be it through greed (less development time), or ignorance (no women play games, and we don’t care if guys prefer female avatars).

    #34 3 years ago
  35. karma

    Game has been in development for going on 5 YEARS!
    Screw females in MP, we got playable aliens! Get the damn game out already!!

    @silkvg247

    If you had done your homework you would know that female marines do feature extensively in this game. You can even see one of the major female characters on the cover art.

    #35 3 years ago
  36. Talkar

    @34
    You are right in that there should be females in this particular game. But saying that both sexes should be in every single game if they have one of the sexes, that is just wrong. There are games where it wouldn’t make sense to add one of the other sexes. For example, it wouldn’t make any sense, what so ever if you could play a female character in Duke Nukem 3D. Using non-gendered characters wouldn’t solve anything. Then people just see the gender they want to see. Here in Denmark there was built 4 statues that doesn’t have breasts, or any organs depicting one sex over the other. Yet people, mainly a hell of a lot of women still thought they looked like men, because there were no breasts on any of them.
    @35
    Gotta agree with you :P

    #36 3 years ago
  37. silkvg247

    @35 then what is this article about? I was assuming it is correct.

    #37 3 years ago
  38. silkvg247

    @36 There aren’t females in DN3D multiplayer? Well that’s disappointing. Won’t play that either then.

    #38 3 years ago
  39. Da Man

    Default gender will always be male. Just like default race is going to be white. It’s just a a default value.. Besides, whether you agree with this or not females aren’t going to become equal in some ways (like war disciplines), and vice versa – males aren’t going to become equal in other ways.. There’s the female beauty and male.. attractiveness. Same as there isn’t going to be any kids born without involvement of different genders.

    I don’t know what to say other than just that you guys should probably check yourself..

    #39 3 years ago
  40. Talkar

    @38
    If you excluding yourself from games that doesn’t feature female characters you’re really creating a worse experience for yourself. Honestly, stop being so easily offended by everything and just play the games for what they are meant to be, entertaining. Of course you have free will, and you can choose to do whatever you want. But don’t mix up ethics, politics and games ;)

    #40 3 years ago
  41. knuck

    @34
    So what do you say about Super Metroid? No males are playable there, I guess the devs must be sexists. Oh wait, sexism doesn’t work for the male side!
    Metal Gear Solid had no playable females, what a sexist Kojima is! Forget about the setting, there must be both genders EVERYWHERE!
    Out of this World is another sexist piece of shit game, no females!
    Crash Bandicoot? Crash is obviously designed as a white heterosexual cis male!

    Get over yourself, if you don’t like it, develop your own game

    #41 3 years ago
  42. monkeygourmet

    What about trans gender space marines?!

    This is disgusting, I want to play as a lady boy in a power loader! :)

    Seriously, this is not a huge issue.

    People will be arguing that Princess Peach is a weak female character next who always has to be ‘saved’ by mario

    #42 3 years ago
  43. knuck

    @42 You’re late to the show, there’s already a documentary about that being produced.

    #43 3 years ago
  44. silkvg247

    @39 Actually, in multiplayer computer games it’s the *only* place we can all be equals, which is why it’s so wrong to exclude female avatars.

    #44 3 years ago
  45. silkvg247

    @40 I have a gazillion games worth my time, so I can pick and choose. Also it isn’t just because I’m offended, it’s because I feel weird playing a guy in FPS games. I try to ignore it for single player games since we are playing the role of a specific character. But in MP I am “myself” and I just can’t associate with a male avatar.

    #45 3 years ago
  46. Aimless

    Just because something isn’t the world’s most pressing issue doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed. Unfortunately this site obviously isn’t the venue, as evidenced by the wilful ignorance on display in here.

    #46 3 years ago
  47. silkvg247

    @41 I am making my own game(s). :)

    We were talking about multiplayer. It’s kind of obvious single player is different, as you’re playing a predefined role/character whereas in MP you are playing either as a generic avatar or from a selection of characters (which will nearly always include females and males).

    I’ve only seen one multiplayer metroid game, and you could be male, female or alien.

    #47 3 years ago
  48. silkvg247

    @42 You would change your opinion overnight if you lived in a world where 90% of computer games were aimed at women and you’d seen a growing trend lately, of exclusion of male avatars in multiplayer games.

    #48 3 years ago
  49. Da Man

    #44 – Oh, okay.

    Lmao.

    You’re right then.

    #49 3 years ago
  50. monkeygourmet

    @48

    And what about trans gender? Just because it’s a minority why not cater for people who are trans gender aswell?

    #50 3 years ago
  51. silkvg247

    @50 – I was tempted not to reply as you don’t seem to understand what Transgender is.

    They are not a third gender. They are people born with a gender they don’t feel right with; for example a guy who feels he is a girl. He’d probably want to play a female avatar. Sometimes they go ahead and get sex changes.

    Some trans don’t associate to any gender, if this is what you mean I can almost see your point, but the fact is they will still have a preference of some sort for how they appear in a game. If they verge more on the feminine side, tough I guess, cos they can only pick a male avatar.

    All that aside, there are only TWO genders on this entire planet. Bringing sexual preference / sexuality into this conversation is illogical.

    #51 3 years ago
  52. monkeygourmet

    @51

    Sorry I was just trolling. Your right, ideally you should have a choice, but hey ho, does it really matter? Your a faceless disembodied gun shooting at aliens.

    #52 3 years ago
  53. DSB

    Maybe they felt women had performed so poorly in the colony that they decided to cut them out of the military?

    Trololol.

    Nah, really, they should be in there. It may not be a big deal in principle, but there were female soldiers in three of the movies, so simply dismissing that for this one makes no sense.

    #53 3 years ago
  54. Panda

    @48 disagreed
    Wouldn’t go that far to say 90%
    Here are some of the female characters in videogame history:
    Faith (mirrors edge), Lara Croft (Tomb Raider), Cate Archer (NOLF), Alice, Jill valentine (Resident Evil),Jade (Beyond good and evil), Chun li, Christie Monteiro (Tekken), Dreamfall, Syberia, Secret Files: Tunguska, Velvet Assassin, WET, Kitana, Farah, Princess Peach just to name a few…. i would find dozen of others when i think about it.

    Is somebody consulting us male videogamers how we feel about it or if we can identify us with the avatars? NOPE

    btw, i would love to see a female contract killer a la Hitman.

    #54 3 years ago
  55. silkvg247

    @54 Again, we’re discussing multiplayer, not single player where you usually have a set role/character in a set story.

    Put it this way, can you name a multiplayer game where there isn’t a male avatar option?

    #55 3 years ago
  56. knuck

    @51 So by your logic, there should be also an option to include physically disabled characters, there are a lot of ‘em in the world, so we might as well cater to them. So what if someone who can’t physically hold a weapon (don’t even think about accusing me of saying women can’t wield weapon, this is *not* what I’m saying) won’t fit the story? WE MUST INCLUDE EVERYBODY. As someone else put earlier in the comments, why not allow child avatars in every game? I’m pretty sure children play videogames, must cater to that audience.

    Get off your high horse, you’re *not* entitled to change a writer’s view on his/her story. This only happens in gaming because, for some reason, people think that just because videogames are also software and software welcomes feedback, they can tell game developers how to do their game. They can’t, or at least shouldn’t.

    @55:
    Put it this way, can you name a multiplayer game where there isn’t a male avatar option?
    Skull Girls

    #56 3 years ago
  57. RoyBrown

    This has nothing to do with design, its a performance thing.

    Adding in a female character means you have to have the game calculate a whole new skeletal animation rig.

    Thats a completely new fucking rig.

    Its not just swap out a model.
    ________________________________

    Aside from this, yeah what a fucking retarded oversight by them.

    I’ll be honest and admit its not something that comes to mind when I think shooters but when I think Aliens…I think of a strong female lead. Kind of blown away that the game has no female characters.

    Also as a side note, stop arguing about transgender and disabled people.

    That conversation is so down right anti social and retarded I cant even believe people respond to those comments.

    #57 3 years ago
  58. monkeygourmet

    @57

    You shouldn’t use the term retarded… It’s offensive, you should say ‘mentally challenged’

    #58 3 years ago
  59. Panda

    @55
    e.g. pet feeding or tons of other flash games n serving, cooking and fashion =D

    #59 3 years ago
  60. Giskard

    @55 Forza! I should be outraged there are no playable humans, right? Who do they think I am, A CAR?

    Seriously, this isn’t sexist, and it’s no discrimination, or anything similar. It’s a god damn game. Stop making mountains out of molehills.

    #60 3 years ago
  61. silkvg247

    Been skulking on these forums for ages now, and honestly dissapointed by some of the expressed views.

    People who can’t understand the difference between a gender, and a sexual preference. Or between a gender and an age. Or between a gender and some level of disability(?!) It just defies belief.

    The two genders are completely different. Every single other thing mentioned can be either male or female, and as such these are all completely illogical points to raise.

    If there were a third gender then that would be the ONLY valid argument when saying “wah next we’ll be asking for [a third gender!] to be included”.

    Newsflash.. disabled, old, young, trans, gay, bi, straight people can be EITHER male or female. Why is it ok to only represent one in a game?

    #61 3 years ago
  62. monkeygourmet

    @61

    Look, are you playing games to make a statement to other people or for personnal enjoyment? It shouldn’t matter what your avatar looks like as long as you are enjoying yourself.

    #62 3 years ago
  63. Aimless

    Frankly I think the people complaining about this petition are the ones making the mountains. It’s a pretty reasonable request that the other 50% of the world’s population have some representation in the multiplayer, especially given the series’ heritage, yet people are jumping on it like it’s some personal insult.

    If the inclusion of female characters is irrelevant to you then that’s fine, but why isn’t it left at that? Why is someone raising awareness about an issue that isn’t of interest to you such a personal affront? Do you walk up to charity workers in the street and scream at them if their cause isn’t directly applicable to you?

    There’s zero reason to be so defensive.

    #63 3 years ago
  64. monkeygourmet

    @63

    It’s not that, but boycotting a whole game you wanted to play just because you can’t play as your desired sex is a bit of an over reaction.

    If its the gameplay you enjoy, this shouldn’t really be a deal breaker…

    #64 3 years ago
  65. knuck

    @61 Whenever I’m talking with the kind of people who think it’s sexist not to have females in games (people like you (who’ll never dare say it’s sexist not to have males)) they fail to tell me why it’s wrong to have only one gender. I gave you one example of what your line of thought seems to imply, and if I’m wrong, please do tell. I’m just saying no developer should have the moral responsibility to give *any* option in a game, and you’re telling me they should at least give the option of gender all the time. Why, then, do you think my proposal for extending it to choosing the age of your character, weight, height, etc is some kind of sad view of things? I’m a pragmatic person, I don’t dislike gender inequality, but please do tell me why for any reason is a developer’s obligation to add gender choice? And when you give me that reason, give me a reason why your line of thought shouldn’t be extended to age, weight, height, and any other customization option you can think of. Just give me a logical, objective reason so I can see your point. Until then I’ll say developers don’t have a single moral obligation other than to make a good game (and other stuff such as don’t be greedy and put day one DLC, but that’s my personal opinion).

    Why stop at gender? What scientific evidence makes you think gender is where we should stop at? If, for some reason you get my point, you’ll notice either:

    1) it was a design choice
    2) just like we can’t, with today’s technology, have fully customizable avatar for every possible taste, preference, age, weight, height, body-piercing, hair color, tattoo, etc, we also can’t pump some more triangles to add a different character model. You said you’re making a game, you should know this.

    #65 3 years ago
  66. Da Man

    Yes, let’s draw analogies between charity and computer entertainment. It’s just as important to represent your gender in a video game.

    *headdesk*

    Hardcore gamers detected.

    #66 3 years ago
  67. JB

    I dont care about the moral implications at all, I`m just glad we`re past the time when videogames almost only appealled to the male gender.

    Surely that`s a good thing ^^

    #67 3 years ago
  68. Kabby

    Seems like a bad oversight. If they feel this is a strong title they could bring out some DLC down the line that adds a female into a new Single Player alternative campaign; thus making her available to MP as well.

    PR just needs to say the female MP toons are coming but it’s part of a planned DLC rollout.

    Or they could just add a female model to the MP roster. It’s not hard.

    #68 3 years ago
  69. knuck

    Can’t edit up there but, I meant “I don’t dislike gender equality”.

    #69 3 years ago
  70. Sini

    Those people just want rape mechanics in the game, it’s all about realism people, get with the times.
    http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120627/REVIEWS/120629975

    #70 3 years ago
  71. Ireland Michael

    @61 The irony is… people are arguing for a right to not have a stance. “Oh but this and this and this… so you shouldn’t complain about this, this and this.”

    Since these people are part of (what I like to call) the Apathetic Generation, they believe that everyone should care as little about things as they do. It’s sad, really.

    You’re stubborn, opinionated and absolutely batshit crazy at times, but I have to say I’ve definitely earned a shit-tonne of respect for your opinion after your posts in this topic.

    @62 This kind of mentality of the embodiment of what I despise. Just because *you* don’t have to deal with gender equality problems every single step you take, doesn’t mean it isn’t relevant.

    How many times does it has to be pointed out that Alien is a franchise applauded for its strong female characters? It’s complete lack of blatant sexism and character stereotyping is practically the benchmark for the entire Sci-Fi genre, and has influenced Sci-Fi in general to be an extremely feminist and anti-sexist genre. A metric fuckton of the Alien fanbase are women. Why she they be forced into a male avatar to represent then? Men are almost never forced into a female one.

    ——–

    People can say you “don’t care” but seriously, don’t try to kid yourself that, if video games suddenly started including nothing but women, there wouldn’t be an uproar. Solely female character and solely female avatars. And not the ones with nice asses and huge breasts either, but ones dressed in proper clothes and fighting for their lives.

    #71 3 years ago
  72. absolutezero

    Suddenly people care about multiplayer avatars.

    I must have missed all the discussions praising Rockstar for letting them play as girls in Max Payne 3.

    I just wish be an oiled muscular man in my Atelier games. Fucking little girls everywhere, totally sexist.

    #72 3 years ago
  73. Ireland Michael

    @72 You’re confusing a multiplayer experience with a single player, character driven one.

    Atelier is a horrible example anyway. It’s female characters are horribly contrived and sexist.

    #73 3 years ago
  74. knuck

    Suddenly Alien is a franchise about feminism that changed sci-fi completely (not).

    Just forget about it, these people dodge arguments like Paybe dodges bullets. They’ll find any reason to say videogames (or any media for that matter) is full of patriarchal values targeted at white cis heterosexual males.

    They’re the fundies of gaming and will *never* be pleased unless their agenda is met 101% of the time.

    #74 3 years ago
  75. silkvg247

    @74 The reason I haven’t replied is because I find the way you post overly aggressive. Maybe it’s the bold. Who knows. In either case I just get a huge feeling of cba.

    But that aside the other reason is.. I’ve already said all I have to say regarding why I feel females must be included in MP. I can’t add to that and I won’t repeat myself needlessly. If you don’t agree then that’s ok.

    @71 haha.. thanks.. I think ;)

    #75 3 years ago
  76. absolutezero

    What if right, what if theres a multiplayer where you play as aliens right. So the aliens that you can play as are all female. The reproduce through psychic sex or something. All of them are female though, and you can never play a male one because they do not exist.

    I’d try and show how theres a vast variety of both male and female character in the recent Atelier games but I would be mainly wasting my time so I won’t bother. Oh fuck no the apathy generation has got me.

    #76 3 years ago
  77. silkvg247

    @56 I will reply to this one though. You seem really angry. Surely I should be the angry one? ;)

    Most things you’re saying here again fit the single player mold. I’m not arguing about single player, at all. I’ve said that already.

    A set story, characters and so on. I don’t particularly care which genders are involved. But bonus points if there are space dogs. And you’re right, I have no right to tell them how to make that single player experience, good job I never argued that point then really isn’t it!

    That said, I’m sure there’d be a lot of pissed of people if the likes of Skyrim didn’t let you create a female. So it ultimately depends on the type of game as well, right?

    Multiplayer isn’t story based, it’s player vs. player and it’s a lot more personal in many ways. You aren’t role playing some dude in some epic story to save a colony of pink fluff weasels from the evil count McHaddock, no, you are just you, with a gun, out to blow shit up. And you want to feel immersed.

    Now I know some multiplayer has you selecting set avatars.. like ya know, Mario Kart, but again not really talking about that. And besides which.. wow! Female characters as an option!

    As for child avatars, they don’t even let us kill the little fuckers in single player games, so can’t see them ever appearing in multiplayer. Shame.

    By the way, you’re not saying they should put child avatars in, you’re saying they should put MALE child avatars in. I’m just trying to gently guide you back on topic here: gender, not age.

    #77 3 years ago
  78. knuck

    @77 Please reply to @65. That’s the million dollar question (which you avoided again). No, the bold isn’t used to imply I’m angry, just to put emphasis.
    I don’t know why you assumed I was talking about single player; I wrote that post after you started saying that single player isn’t multiplayer, so that was taken into consideration.

    This topic isn’t about age, but my question remains: why stop at age? What objective reasons do you have to say we should stop at gender?

    If you don’t have any, just accept it’s technical limitations/design decisions or hell most probably marketing decisions, since males are still the most playing “hardcore” games.

    I also don’t see where you got the idea I said they should put [male] child avatars in, I never specified gender.

    no, you are just you, with a gun, out to blow shit up. And you want to feel immersed.

    I guess that’s the difference between you and me, I never felt such an immersion from multiplayer games. When I play FPSs for example, it feels like a first person camera with a gun. That’s how I view any shooter (again, shooter is just an example). Sorry to disagree there I guess.

    #78 3 years ago
  79. absolutezero

    So, stay with me here, this game has asymmetrical multiplayer correct?

    So one team of players is going to be controlling the Xenomorphs right?

    (can you see where im going with this?)

    #79 3 years ago
  80. silkvg247

    @78 I already said everything I have to say on why I *feel* multiplayer games should include female avatars in post #44. That one sentence sums it up for me, I honestly can’t add any more, if it doesn’t convince you then nothing will.

    Everything else, technical “limitations” and what not, are like I’ve said, excuses.

    As for why stop at gender? You’re right, put that way it’s hard to argue. I’d like you to look at it the other way around, what if we continued to ignore the female populace and instead we did start looking at children (male only), disabled (male only) and old people (male only). Seeing the point? They should actually all be male or female. In including male AND female you automatically include every person on the planet.

    Yes, you’ll get further *variation* in age and ability, but it’s not the same thing now is it. I’m sure a disabled/old/young girl would feel a lot more at home with a female avatar than a male one, aren’t you?

    @79 Nooo they only have one queen. Nice try though. ;)

    #80 3 years ago
  81. Giskard

    @80 Your views are warped beyond belief. If you can’t enjoy a multiplayer game that does not include pixelated boobs, I’m not sure why you even bother playing games at all.

    #81 3 years ago
  82. silkvg247

    Yeah, it’s all about the boobs.. :p

    #82 3 years ago
  83. monkeygourmet

    @71

    You trying to score points because I made you look like twat the other day o’conner?

    I deal with sexism everyday at my work. I work in a job almost entirely dominated by women. It’s in the care industry which is still over stereotyped by matron like female roles.

    Yes, this is bullshit because of the large amount of young males getting jobs in this sector, but unfortunatly that’s the rub…

    Do I bitch about it, not really… Only when I hear people whining they cant make an avatar look exactly like them on a game…

    Who gives a fuck, there is a lot more shit to worry about, these are first world problems… exactly like you said to that guy who was complaining about episode 3 on a different thread:

    “you take games way too seriously…”

    It’s just a game, it’s not sexist, get over it and stop being such a white knight…

    #83 3 years ago
  84. Kabby

    Availability:

    12/02/2013

    Plenty of time to whip up some boobs in 3DSMax.

    #84 3 years ago
  85. monkeygourmet

    @80

    So, are you going to buy the game or not?

    Is it a protest if you don’t purchase?

    Are you going to buy it but just be upset about not being able to play as your preferred character?

    Are you going to boycott further games?

    It’s more interesting finding out your reasonings to these questions rather than just complain about a feature that may not make it to the final cut…

    #85 3 years ago
  86. Talkar

    @83
    You absolutely nailed it!

    #86 3 years ago
  87. Ireland Michael

    @71 “Suddenly Alien is a franchise about feminism that changed sci-fi completely (not).”

    Well, considering that it’s been applauded for that very fact for decades, I have no idea where I’d get that conclusion from…

    “They’ll find any reason to say videogames (or any media for that matter) is full of patriarchal values targeted at white cis heterosexual males.”

    You’d have to be living in some sort of giant bubble to believe otherwise.

    @81 Brownie points?

    wut?

    #87 3 years ago
  88. DSB

    So why is it okay for Ellen Ripley to be cornered like an animal by aliens and even impregnated by them, but not okay for Lara Croft to have her personal sphere invaded by some douche in the wilderness?

    One is a feminist icon, and the other is sexually attractive. So she doesn’t qualify?

    #88 3 years ago
  89. monkeygourmet

    @87

    It’s a direction, but this game is obviously not following it. It’s using The film and lore as background, not following the script to the tee…

    For fuck sakes, there’s huge aliens who use battering rams on their heads… It’s nothing like the film, why can’t artistic licence spread to the multiplayer…

    It’s a different canon, just like the colonial marine comics…

    #89 3 years ago
  90. Ireland Michael

    @88 That’s very easy to answer.

    1) It never had any sort of overtly sexual, leering tone to it.

    2) She was already a badass. It wasn’t used as an excuse to create some sort of superficial character growth. She simply dealt with the horrible circumstances set before her.

    3) She was impregnated by a *female*. Anyway, the movie that created that plot element was terrible.

    @88 1) That didn’t answer my question

    2) I wasn’t aware that being misogynistic counted as “artistic license”.

    #90 3 years ago
  91. monkeygourmet

    @90

    Have you recently had to attend awareness training at work?!

    This is a non issue and you know it… Considering the real problems people face, this is bullshit. If you want to boycott a game because it doesn’t offer you exactly what you would like, that’s fine.

    Petition, whatever, that’s your right.

    If you try and turn it into some kind of feminist stance, that is bullshit my friend…

    And you must know this, it’s always nice to have complete customisation of your avatar, it’s not always an option.

    End of story!

    #91 3 years ago
  92. Ireland Michael

    @91 Sure, in the grander scheme of things, this is largely irrelevant. Then again, so are videos games. I guess we should stop playing them then, or talking about them. While we’re at it, let’s stop writing stories and creating music. What do they matter?

    It’s pretty perplexing when people use the argument “it’s just a video game”. It’s like people expect so little from them as it is that they can’t even imagine the potential for more. That’s honestly kinda sad.

    It’s easy to say its “not always an option” when *your* gender is the one always being represented. They’ve been developing the game for years. Female marines are a *huge* part of Alien lore. They have no fucking excuse.

    Awareness training? What?

    #92 3 years ago
  93. monkeygourmet

    @92

    People rarely take video games seriously as a medium because they never really bother to tackle serious issues well.

    This is down to a lot of factors but generally;

    graphics and realism. (can they display a scene well enough to move someone emotionally).

    Acting, I.e. the quality of voice actors.

    Interaction and physics.

    Until these things increase dramatically, games and their plots are always going to fall more easily into “pulp” entertainment.

    If you think people are inherently racist / sexist / whatever, just because you don’t feel they empathise with a particular view, you yourself are exposing a huge flaw in the way you view the world and people you assume you “empathise” with…

    Until you know the full story regarding the devs decisions not to include female avatars and expose their sexist ways, would you kindly shut up?

    #93 3 years ago
  94. DSB

    @90 So women aren’t allowed to be approached sexually by males in fiction? There’s an attempted rape in the third movie, and instead of handling it herself, she’s saved by a big strong man.

    No matter which way you look at it, it’s a lot less serious to have a guy rub up against you, than an alien actually filling your uterus with seed.

    Indeed, she dealt with the circumstances before her. Just like Lara does when the guy gets too close.

    The thing that made the original Aliens so exciting was Ripleys very feminine vulnerability in the face of what’s going on around her. She may be a marine, but she’s broken by the time we’re at the second movie, and she doesn’t really recover until the fourth, at which point she’s actually a clone.

    So why the double standard?

    #94 3 years ago
  95. Ireland Michael

    @94 There’s a reason people hate the third movie, Peter, and that is why. It ruined her character. Weaver practically had to be begged to appear in the third film, because she was so disappointed by the removal of a lot of character development focused footage in the second.

    There isn’t a fan alive who likes the fourth. Clones? Really? Fuck off.

    Like you said, there is a reason it worked in the first, and it’s that movie that character is commended for. I’m not going to ignore the strength of the first one just because other writers made her suck in the later films.

    The problem with Lara is that they start off portraying her in this horribly contrived girly girly fashion. She’s feeble, weak, and then she has this “magic moment” of revelation that turns her into a survival expert and a masterful killer. Human psychology doesn’t work like that.

    Rape and assault *can* be done if done well. The *problem* is that it’s a completely contrived plot device that is rarely, if ever, given the serious pathos it’s deserves. We’ve already been over this. I’m so fucking jaded and tired regarding the whole Lara topic at this point, honestly.

    #95 3 years ago
  96. DSB

    @95 Wait what? When did she say that?

    She was a producer on Alien 3 as well as Resurrection, and the only statement on the matter I could find was a recent interview in which she said “I’m very proud of our four movies and I wish him all the best with it” when speaking about Prometheus.

    And this: “I could definitely kick that alien’s ass again. [Ripley]‘s a smart hero, it’s the way she thinks, but just looking at the way the business is…”

    Doesn’t make it sound like she has to be dragged at all.

    I think she was the biggest badass in Resurrection, personally. I don’t mind that movie at all.

    #96 3 years ago
  97. absolutezero

    So there was nothing at all sexual in the relationship between the big walking black HR Giger penis monster and Ripley.

    ALRIGHTY THEN.

    #97 3 years ago
  98. JB

    If you take out the last 7 or 8 minutes of Alien 4 it`s actually quite good IMHO.

    Alien 3 is the worst by far:
    http://filmonic.com/art-v-commerce-david-finchers-alien-3-nightmare

    (unless Aliens VS. Predator counts as well, the original comics are great, but then Hollywood happended – turning them into generic Hollywood rubbish)

    I`d argue Princess Leia was the first “tough bitch” in Sci Fi ^^

    I`ll crawl back under my rock again ^^

    #98 3 years ago
  99. Ireland Michael

    @96 Because that doesn’t sound like a generic byline at all.

    @98 And then stuck her in a metal bikini. Leia might have had an attitude, but that still didn’t stop her from being a damsel in distress, love interest and eye candy.

    #99 3 years ago
  100. DSB

    @99 A generic byline that she obviously agreed to. Twice.

    #100 3 years ago
  101. Ireland Michael

    @100 The pomposity of Hollywood celebrities shouldn’t really come as a surprise to anyone.

    #101 3 years ago
  102. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ Neither should yours…

    #102 3 years ago
  103. Fnoros

    I suggest that games only include females if they are realistically proportioned for their role. Movies tend to cast actors and models as tough characters, which is pretty ridiculous – an 80 pound anorexic cannot realistically hold their own in a fight of any sort, really, unless they use certain martial arts or styles that emphasize throwing instead of punching dudes in the face. Games are mostly similar. Lara Croft, for example, doesn’t have enough muscle to do any of what she does in the games.

    #103 3 years ago
  104. Ireland Michael

    @102 If you’re attempting to prove that you have absolutely no qualities beyond being a hackneyed Internet bully, you’re succeeding. You’re absolutely fucking pathetic.

    #104 3 years ago
  105. G1GAHURTZ

    Oooooh….

    He’s bullying me!

    I need a WHAAAAAAAAAAMBULANCE!!

    #105 3 years ago
  106. Ireland Michael

    @105 “…hackneyed…”

    Your mentality is that of a bitter child. I would honestly feel sad for you if you were younger. Thankfully, I have the other 80% of the site to do that on my behalf. You and Da Man are like the Bulk and Skull of VG247.

    #106 3 years ago
  107. G1GAHURTZ

    Cry some more!

    #107 3 years ago
  108. Ireland Michael

    @107 I am. From laughter.

    #108 3 years ago
  109. G1GAHURTZ

    At yourself!

    #109 3 years ago
  110. knuck

    @silkvg247: I’d like to take the time to apologize for calling you one of those feminazis who call anyone they disagree with CIS HETERO MALE WHITE ETC, you’re actually the most reasonable feminist I’ve ever spoken to.

    Having said that, I still stand by my point that avatars being fully customizable, althought something desirable and gender (in my opinion) should be there most times (I am a male and I prefer playing females since I were a kid. Also I’m not into boobs, so that’s not the reason =p) I still don’t think it’s sexist not to add that option to every multiplayer game. =/

    You’re still awesome though, you’re the kind of feminist this world needs, not people like Ireland Michael, he spouts complete nonsense, the usual male-hater.

    tl;dr: Keep on fighting for female avatars, just don’t use sexism as a reason, it doesn’t apply in this case imo

    #110 3 years ago
  111. silkvg247

    @85 I won’t buy it, but I never intended to anyway! If it’d had some strong female leads in, I might have shown some interest yes, but as it stands now there’s nothing appealing for me.

    If it turns out to be a mega awesome marines vs. aliens game and all my mates play it, then sure, I’ll buy it in due course.

    I don’t boycott games otherwise I would have never played TF2. I just don’t buy them if they don’t appeal. And often games which lack females don’t appeal; that’s what I meant when I said I don’t buy MP games with male only avatars.

    I’ve made other exceptions in the past because my guildies play a certain game, for example the battlefield series for playing at LAN. If they didn’t play said game(s) then I would never had seen a need to buy them.

    #111 3 years ago
  112. silkvg247

    @110 I was gonna argue I’m not really a feminist as forum debate doesn’t make me one.. but if that’s how you see me then I don’t see the point arguing. Like most things, it’s just a label. However, I’m not about to go burn my bra, I quite like having the boob support.

    Looking at the wiki, if I am one, I’m one of the last ones in the paragraph:

    “Feminism is mainly focused on women’s issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, some feminists argue that men’s liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.”

    .. I’m more of an equality person, and like I said before, we can only be equals in games, so that’s the *only* place I’ll really argue females should have a presence.

    I’m fully aware the genders are not equals in real life, I don’t know why people can’t accept that and I don’t agree in equal opportunities in every job either. I believe physical jobs are better suited to men. I beleive certain mental jobs are better for women, for example did you know we have a better mindset for logical thinking therefore programming? Sadly girls aren’t guided towards IT hence it is unusual to see a girl behind a computer.

    I could talk all day about my views on this but this isn’t the right forum. :)

    Apology accepted, and we can agree to disagree on what sexism is, as my view on it is different to most people’s anyway.

    #112 3 years ago
  113. knuck

    @112 I know girls are better at multitasking while men are better at doing a single task properly. Just like you, I know men are better suited for physical tasks while women are better for other things (though I don’t know exactly what things), and what you said about programming is news to me, pretty cool to know though!

    And about the feminist label, I use the term like it was used in the 60s: equality. Nowadays it seems to me it has been skewed to be “women > men” (though I am not sure, it’s just the way lots of feminists from today act imo), which is the reason the term “egalitarianism” was created.

    My defensive stance on this whole issue is due to some people on other sites (and some people in here, sadly) coming with the stance “this is sexism and if you don’t agree, it just shows how bad the situation is, and I won’t bother explaining to you chauvinist pig” in the past few months, due to tomb raider, videogames women tropes documentary, etc. The shitty gaming tabloid known as Kotaku has writers spouting that kind of hate-filled nonsense every week, and it’s been building up inside me lately.

    Either way, would love to talk you about programming, game dev (what kind of game are you working on?) and whatever else somewhere else.

    #113 3 years ago
  114. Da Man

    O’Conner, considering you spent years on this internet website arguing with thearse up until recently, going on about how you’re a superior ‘gamer’, ‘journalist’, ‘intelligent’ and ‘handsome’, only to start nagging on about how you ‘re a father of two kids (step father I suppose though?) on every possible occasion or how you’re the defender of women’s’ rights (on the internet)..

    ..thus basically going from a psychotic young man to a tedious male feminist, you make some amazing accusations..

    Noone bullied you, you’re just an annoying person, constantly seeking hysterical conflicts.. I take it you make friends that way. Too bad.

    So anyway, did the little feminine Michaela just mention Aliens’ story as something proving his point and then dismissed story driven video games as being irrelevant? Logic.. male feminists lack it.

    Top satire , O’Conner.

    #114 3 years ago
  115. silkvg247

    @113 sure, you can just use my indie dev thread if you wanna chat sometime. I’ll be doing an update end of this month, game is near completion but my real life(tm) job has kicked up a notch, so indie dev is slow at the mo.

    http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=5560

    #115 3 years ago
  116. Ireland Michael

    @114 I don’t recall ever saying story driven games are irrelevant. Heck, in the a recent Beyond story, I made the point that I think they’re essential to making people take gaming seriously. Stories are one of the best things about good games.

    The only problem is that most video game stories suck.

    I said there are differences between single player content and multiplayer content. There’s a female marine in the single-player campaign of Colonial Marines.

    #116 3 years ago
  117. DSB

    @101 Pomposity or not, it doesn’t seem like she’s opposed to the idea at all. She’s opposed to working with 20th Century Fox. And that’s apparently because they won’t let her play an action role.

    #117 3 years ago

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