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Sony faces “misrepresentation” accusations in hack case

Sunday, 20 March 2011 22:42 GMT By Brenna Hillier

George GeoHot Hotz’s lawyers have accused Sony of deliberately misleading courts as to which of its national divisions owns the PlayStation 3 software development kit, in order to gain otherwise illegal access to the hacker’s hard drives.

According to Groklaw, GeoHot has argued that the SDK is owned by Sony Computer Entertainment Japan, and not Sony Computer Entertainment America.

SCEA had previously argued that Hotz’s use of the SDK created a “relationship” between the two parties, and this allowed a Californian court to permit a search of Hotz’s home and hard drives.

Hotz’s legal team has described SCEA’s failure to acknowledged other SCE division’s rights to the SDK as “material misrepresentations”, and filed for a protective order to keep his drives intact.

Hotz has claimed the drives must not be searched, because they contain commercial material which could prove financially disastrous.

As well as access to GeoHot’s drives, Sony has been granted the details of his PayPal account and the IP addresses of visitors to his website.

Hotz is being sued by Sony after publishing PS3′s root key in January, a move which helped open the machine up to piracy.

Thanks, CVG.

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49 Comments

  1. Naaame

    “Hotz has claimed the drives must not be searched, because they contain commercial material which could prove financially disastrous.”

    What exactly does that mean? He’s got teraflops of illegally obtained movies/games/music on his hard disks?

    #1 4 years ago
  2. Erthazus

    “GeoHot has argued that the SDK is owned by Sony Computer Entertainment Japan, and not Sony Computer Entertainment America”

    OMG, BITCH, you know, some of the materials belong to Toshiba, whats next he is going to argue about to save his precious baby ASS?

    @Naaame.

    “He’s got teraflops of illegally obtained movies/games/music on his hard disks?”

    Nope. Just terabyte of PORN.

    #2 4 years ago
  3. Razor

    Yeah, there’s going to be a lot of this.

    #3 4 years ago
  4. monu-mental

    Ah, Hotz brought this upon himself. Now he doesn’t want Sony to search his stuff because it’ll be “financially disastrous”? Really Hotz? Didn’t you think it’d be “financially disastrous” for Sony when you released the PS3′s root key online for all to see? His hypocrisy is stunning.

    Meanwhile, Sony’s enjoying the best year in the past five of PS3….

    http://www.gamesthirst.com/2011/03/20/tretton-ps3s-just-hitting-its-stride-enjoying-best-year-in-the-past-five/

    Go on, Hotz. Glad I’m not you.

    #4 4 years ago
  5. Renegade

    We Love You HOTZ, And we hope you’ll get out of this soon…

    #5 4 years ago
  6. Jackie

    you can do this buddy! you have all my support

    #6 4 years ago
  7. Gigabomber

    After watching the comments on this issue for so long I’m beginning to feel that Sony has a following akin to Apple’s rabid fanboyism ; I never understood people’s need to defend a corporation: they defend themselves quite well.

    #7 4 years ago
  8. white1750

    I don’t care if people want to hack a system until it starts to effect me. I had my stats reset in Modern Warfare 2 which I had put 200+ hours into. I bought my PS3′s so I could enjoy gaming not so someone could exploit it. Other than ruining multi-player, stealing games and running homebrew what is the point? I am glad they are banning hacked PS3′s for the simple reason that there will be the jerks out there that ruin it for everyone. Hacking is best done on the PC where it started and where it belongs. I hope Sony burn him at the stake so when others are thinking of copying his idiocy they will look at his charred remains and think “I could be that guy”.

    I would like to see someone make a game where you switch his head with Makarov’s and take that tool out!! J/K?

    #8 4 years ago
  9. YoungZer0

    @6: What does that look like?

    To topic: Not rapping now, are you, bitch?

    #9 4 years ago
  10. Kerplunk

    “Hotz has claimed the drives must not be searched, because they contain commercial material which could prove financially disastrous.”

    I’m sure Sony felt the same way about their private data that you chose to publicise without their consent.

    I guess you see that sort of behaviour quite differently when it’s your stuff at stake, huh? Funny how that works isn’t it?

    #10 4 years ago
  11. Hybridpsycho

    @10
    Word :)

    All I can say really ^^

    #11 4 years ago
  12. ManuOtaku

    I just hope other countries will follow suit Norway, they are sueing Sony regarding damages to the consumers, this for the removal of capabilities(other S), that were purchase by the owner paying full price for those said applications, without any compensation whatsoever, and with this removal sony affected the orignal product too.

    I said it before and i said it again, iam just amaze that people see what Geo Hotz did, as wrong, which for me it is, but not too many of that said people, is seeing what sony did as also just wrong; Nobody did defend us as consumers, when the removal took place, thank god Norway is making an strong statement with this, but everybody want to defend sony as soon as some people place to the open public, the key to install Other S, among other things (piracy). Look If sony did want to compete piracy, why in the world that is sacred, they put the option of running other S in the first place; since the first model went selling this option was availabe, and then, when they do realize the “mistake”, they opted for the easiest way, to a product, that at the price they started it to retail, should be tested to death,which was screw the consumers and took it off with any compensation, thas just plain ans simple wrong, i dont use this application, but the precedent that was done, with a big company ripping off the consumers, was ovewhelming, to say the least.

    Sony just gave the exuse for this to happen, maybe intentionally or not,that never will be known,and they are now just acting like little spoiled kids, they should act like the other two big manufacturers, and deal with it, becuase it was their own fault that made this happen.
    Sony DEAL WITH IT.

    #12 4 years ago
  13. Kerplunk

    @12 It’s worth remembering that the removal of OtherOS was via an *optional* firmware update. If you wanted to keep that original featureset that was sold out-of-the-box on Day 1 then the user had the option of not updating the firmware.

    Of course, not updating the firmware may inhibit additional features and functions added *after* the original launch of the machine that were never advertised or could be argued that a sale (at that time) was based on.

    So, if you really want all your day-1 features as is then just don’t update your firmware. You get all the advantages and disadvantages that it entails. People had a choice, so the rhetoric suggesting otherwise is false.

    #13 4 years ago
  14. Mike

    Stick it to the man, Geo.

    #14 4 years ago
  15. Renegade

    @12 exactly…

    @13 It’s not true because playing online is another thing Sony SHOULD offer according to agreement and without a new FW, online gaming is down…

    #15 4 years ago
  16. ManuOtaku

    #13, not is was not optional because if you decide to not running the “optional” firmaware, then you cannot play videogames on a game console, so the main feature of the device would be lost, therefore in the end is not such thing as an optional, you have one way(other S) or the other (Gaming) but not the two together, so i stand it, it is a ripoff, becuase sony did not compesate the owners for this.

    You think if this wanst the case, why on earth the Norigean Country is sueing sony for this?, ask yourself that question, because they want to protect the consumers, thats all
    P.D and this is not rhetoric neither being false, is what i do think is wrong,as what GEO foolishly did too.

    #16 4 years ago
  17. Kerplunk

    Sure you can play the videogames. You just can’t play the ones that require updates or newer firmware. But all that oh-so-important DAY 1 functionality that you had originally is intact.

    People want all that *extra* functionality that firmware updates (sometimes) offer – well they can have it if they agree to the terms. If they don’t agree, they don’t have to have it.

    I think what’s clearest here is that a choice is provided. Those that wanted to retain that OtherOS functionality *could* keep it. And those games that ran on Day 1 should still run.

    Make a choice, but its your choice. Nobody is forcing you one way or another. I’m sure those that prioritised OtherOS over everything else still kept that functionality.

    Spare me the victim melodrama though. I have no sympathy for people that make choices or agree blindly on things and then complain about how what they agreed to in their luxury goods doesn’t suit their wants and desires at that specific time. People need to grow the fuck up and be accountable for what they do without always blaming the other party involved when it doesn’t turn out exactly as they like.

    A bit like GeoHotz and his ironic statement really.

    #17 4 years ago
  18. ManuOtaku

    #17 “Sure you can play the videogames. You just can’t play the ones that require updates or newer firmware”, you are saying just what i did

    “Spare me the victim melodrama though. I have no sympathy for people that make choices or agree blindly on things and then complain about how what they agreed to in their luxury goods doesn’t suit their wants and desires at that specific time. People need to grow the fuck up and be accountable for what they do without always blaming the other party involved when it doesn’t turn out exactly as they like”

    Read my post i said what he did is wrong, just as wrong as sony did thats all.

    #18 4 years ago
  19. Kerplunk

    Hey man, you keep all that DAY-1 functionality. It works just like it did when you bought it on DAY 1. See? No issue. People that want to keep the functionality can choose to keep it. Simple!

    Sure, it makes as much real sense as saying “But when I drive a car after I’ve bought it from the dealer, it lowers in value and starts to gain wear and tear from usage”. Solution: don’t use it! Not very practical, but it’s a perfectly valid choice if those are your genuine priorities.

    As for them both being equally wrong: I disagree. Geohot didn’t offer anyone a choice. He acted and chose to commit the irreversible consequence of his actions without offering consultation or choice to the affected parties.

    #19 4 years ago
  20. ManuOtaku

    #19.No it doesnt, if i want to play god of war III, for example, i need to run an update, that will disenable the other S application, plain and simple, its wrong,the option doesnt exist in the end is an illusion, and they did not compesate me or the other affected people for this, the problem is that i cannot have both as in DAY-1.thats nor a choice just like Geohot did, they are both wrong.period

    P.D i didnt said anything about the car, iam not one of those, i just state the facts of this precedent case.

    #20 4 years ago
  21. Kerplunk

    But God of War 3 isn’t a DAY-1 game!! So you can’t argue its a loss of the system that you bought on DAY-1.

    Nobody who read DAY-1 feature lists about OtherOS can say that they read that feature AND included God of War 3 in their decision to buy the PS3 in that period. At that time, GoW3 wasn’t even announced – so any reference or arguments that concern it cannot be relevant to this whole “original featureset” train of thought.

    So, sticking to the facts, you can’t claim a feature from one date and a feature from a totally separate date are the same thing when you’re arguing that it’s wrong for things to change from one date to the next. (Unless you only care when things that change affect you negatively whilst being happy to accept any positive changes that come your way)

    You want to live in a snapshot of a single date, go for it. Watch Groundhog Day! :D

    #21 4 years ago
  22. ManuOtaku

    #21, so because god of war isnt a DAY-1 game, gives the capability to sony to close my launch console abality to play games, because of their mistake to add Other S in the first place, and the simple solution was rip off the consumers, well is that is a fact, maybe, but is a wrong one, becuase i did pay full price (600$), for a gaming console that do run other S, if i dont have neither of them, i am legally bound to get a compensation, plain a simple, if they do not compesate the people affected they are pretty much a thiefs.

    Again What Geo Did whats wrong as sony did, becuase they went with the easy rout, f*** off the consumers, becuase sony do what they want, and finally thank god other countries are suing his Asses, becuase they realize what i do, that is wrong, for the consumers of course.
    P.D sony said since the beginning that Other S will be further supported on launch day, so they are deceiving the consumers. just wrong

    #22 4 years ago
  23. Kerplunk

    Look, you are arguing that it should have what it had out of the box in terms of original featureset. But you’re not sticking to that argument because you want to include stuff BEYOND the original featureset when it suits you whilst complaining that a change from the original featureset is wrong.

    Except that’s not what you’re arguing. You’re arguing that anything that benefits you after that original date is a-ok. Anything you don’t see a benefit for is bad and should be outlawed.

    Well, that’s a very convenient argument for you, but not a very realistic one. It’s like when games get blamed for some shooting and everyone goes “Games don’t affect people!!” and another report about how games make you smarter and more alert and folk go “Games affect people!!”. It’s very selective reasoning.

    Arguing the validity of change is one thing. Arguing that it’s only valid when it serves you is quite different. It’s either valid or not – but you have to be mature enough to accept that change isn’t something designed exclusively for your benefit and that, sometimes, it’s a requirement for the benefit of others.

    I stand by my reasoning of Geohot’s wrongdoing – he did what he did without providing consultation or choice. Now he’s expecting the rules that he’s happy to break when it suits him to be upheld when it suits him. Add to that, he’s a criminally bad rapper.

    We’re not going to see eye to eye on this and it’s unlikely I’m going to become a member of Norwegian government.

    All in all, I can live with that. Have a nice day :)

    #23 4 years ago
  24. ManuOtaku

    #21 “Look, you are arguing that it should have what it had out of the box in terms of original featureset. But you’re not sticking to that argument because you want to include stuff BEYOND the original featureset when it suits you whilst complaining that a change from the original featureset is wrong”
    Such said device came with the two applications, so is not BEYOND, the playstation should be running both as initially advertised, if not, is decieving the consumers, iam not the one playing with the conviniences, Sony does.
    As for the rest is your opinion and i respected, so i will not comment

    And thanks you too, have a nice day and a great week mate 8D.

    #24 4 years ago
  25. guy

    #10 #13 #17 #19 #21 and #23

    access to PSN is a day one feature and so is Other OS. Updated fireware is required to get onto the PSN and it removed Other OS.

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110218181557455

    #25 4 years ago
  26. Ireland Michael

    I can’t play numerous new games or software on Windows 95.

    I can choose to stick with Windows 95, or update to the latest version, understanding that some functionality might be lost, and older software may not run on the new system, just as new software may not run on the old system.

    This is no different to that.

    You made the choice. Quit being a self entitled little bitch.

    #26 4 years ago
  27. lexph3re

    Can’t be a day one feature because internet is required to connect to psn. And the. Internet is an optional means therefore left to the discression of the user. Its technically not out of the box availible. Os is out of the box availible firmware 1.01 or whatever it was at the time is. Day one out the box. That’s only if you are looking at the real facts

    #27 4 years ago
  28. ManuOtaku

    #25 Thanks for the link it was a great read and something to think about and pretty much supports the things that i been stating in previous post about this case.

    #28 4 years ago
  29. Ireland Michael

    @27 To add to this, hardware that comes shipped with firmware without the Other OS feature does not advertise it on the box.

    #29 4 years ago
  30. guy

    #26 I think you missed the point. Sony has removed functionality from existing software, this is completely different then windows adding functionality to new software.

    #27 PSN was and is still a major feature sold with the game. Quote taken from http://www.sonystyle.com (if you’re looking for some real facts)

    “PlayStation®3 … system comes with free access to the PlayStation®Network…”

    #30 4 years ago
  31. ManuOtaku

    #30 i think they didnt read the entire article, but again nice read

    #31 4 years ago
  32. LOLshock94

    go go geo

    #32 4 years ago
  33. Ireland Michael

    “[SCEA] warrants to the original purchaser that the PS3TM hardware shall be free from material defects in material and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the original date of purchase (the “Warranty Period”)….. This warranty does not apply to any system software that is pre-installed in the PS3TM hardware, or is subsequently provided via update or upgrade releases. Such system software is licensed to you under the terms and conditions of a separate end user license agreement….”

    “You understand and acknowledge that any time SCEA services your PS3TM system (either within the Warranty Period or under a separate service arrangement), it may become necessary for SCEA to provide certain services to your PS3TM system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCEA guidelines. Such services may include the installation of the latest software or firmware updates, or service or replacement of the PS3TM hard disk or the PS3TM system with a new or refurbished product. You acknowledge and agree that some services may change your current settings, cause a removal of cosmetic stickers or system skins, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality.

    This comes in the box.

    Suck it.

    #33 4 years ago
  34. lexph3re

    Lolol thank you micheal although I hate when some people beat me to the punch what can I expect when using a cell phone.lol

    #34 4 years ago
  35. theevilaires

    Ireland Michael:

    “This comes in the box”.

    “Suck it”.

    http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/a/6/a61ad_ORIG-facePalm_triple.jpg

    #35 4 years ago
  36. Kerplunk

    Awww, that’s cute. People are still desperately, willingly, utterly still ignoring their own actions to act like they’re some sort of victim of theft.

    Fact: You chose to update the firmware. Your action. It was a choice you made. You are responsible for the choice you make, nobody else is.

    As for ‘access’, access is not the same as ownership (and make no mistake, a key issue here is that people do not understand what they own and what they do not own). And, of course, access may be free but it’s nearly always governed by terms and conditions. I have free access to museums but that doesn’t entitle me to change the locks on the doors and give the exhibits to my friends.

    @33 & 35 – You know, you two make a pretty good team. ;)

    #36 4 years ago
  37. Ireland Michael

    @35 To quote Kerplunk…

    “Awww, that’s cute. People are still desperately, willingly, utterly still ignoring their own actions to act like they’re some sort of victim of theft.”

    #37 4 years ago
  38. spiderLAW

    Wait, so we are still against GeoHotz right?
    This TEA and Mike thing got me mixed up…couldnt care much to read through it all at the moment (eyes are fried)

    #38 4 years ago
  39. Ireland Michael

    @38 I’ve never been against GeoHotz.

    #39 4 years ago
  40. ManuOtaku

    #36 “Fact: You chose to update the firmware. Your action. It was a choice you made. You are responsible for the choice you make, nobody else is”.

    It was not a choice, the cosumers were forced, they decide which one they prefer to loose, in order to save their console, not sony,a choice in the best case scenario are a win/ win alternative, in the worst case scenario are win/lose, but in this case was not a choice it was lose/lose, they were force to decide, and keep in mind that electronic devices, always are been updated to add or modify a feature, that translates into benefit for consumers, not as a downgrade, based on that premise the chooice given by sony has to be two equal benefits for the consumer or at least win/lose like the worst case, which was not the case in question
    And is true PSN is sonys property, but in this case it was use to downgrade the console, afecting the investment and the money the cosumers paid for it, these applications form part of the total cost of the product, and they were not compesated by this, thats not choice, sony forced them to do so , becuase they really had not choice, the only decision was which application i rather loose over the other, but then again is forcing people , not given you the choice two very diferent words, that is hard to understand too.

    And even worst if you decide to kepp the other s application, you end up losing the PSN and gaming applications, that were the two main applications of said device, thats deceiving and its wrong.

    #40 4 years ago
  41. OlderGamer

    I’m not Spider.

    I think he is a dumb punk kid. But I also think he is going to get a raw deal. I think Sony is looking for a face to put on their “Hacking is Evil” posters. And GeoHotz is that face.

    They are going to ruin this kid and they are going to spend more money doing that then they would ever lose from PS3 being hacked.

    XB360 and Wii have both been hacked for a while, both sell rather well.

    But I am not going to get into it, a thrid and fourth time. No matter how many times the Media run this thing, its still the same story.

    #41 4 years ago
  42. Kerplunk

    “It was not a choice, the cosumers were forced, they decide..”

    And that’s as far as I need to read.

    By your own words, “they decide”. They made a decision. They made a choice. They were given options and they chose one.

    Old man wisdom: you will encounter many many times in your life when you have to make a choice where no option is appealing to you. This does not remove the fact that you still have a choice. Nor does it remove the fact that you and nobody else made the choice and you and nobody else are responsible for the choice you made.

    A choice does not have to consist of a benefit. Absolutely not. If you believe that it does then you are in for a lifetime of disappointment and upset.

    As for the rest, re-read #33 and stop acting like you were never informed and never had a choice.

    You are not a victim. You are not helpless. You have not been forced to do anything you didn’t agree to.

    #42 4 years ago
  43. Ireland Michael

    @42 Don’t waste your breath Kerplunk. It’s like asking a chimp to write a Shakespearian sonnet.

    #43 4 years ago
  44. Kerplunk

    [ CANCEL ] [-I AGREE-]

    #44 4 years ago
  45. spiderLAW

    @OG and Mike
    Im against Hotz doing what he did. I am against Sony raping his ass to shreads.
    But im not against GeoHotz getting punishment for what he did. But, it should be something not so harsh. Maybe…Have him sell PS3s and PS3 games for a year at the local Gamestop for minimum wage? lol

    #45 4 years ago
  46. Ireland Michael

    @45 He didn’t break the law.

    #46 4 years ago
  47. Lounds

    I’m with #8

    burn him at the stake!!!

    #47 4 years ago
  48. Lloytron

    Taking a different view here for a sec….

    Anyone heard anything about the guys responsible for managing Sony’s security policies, and whether they have been fired or not?

    Don’t forget, Geohotz didn’t actually hack or crack anything, he and some other guys used a bit of maths to work the keys out, because Sony’s own staff didn’t manage the security policies properly. If they had done their jobs, none of this would ever have happened.

    So are they still working for Sony?

    #48 4 years ago
  49. ManuOtaku

    #42 Dont use my words out of contest and in half ways “It was not a choice, the cosumers were forced, they decide which one they prefer to loose”
    Again in a lose/lose situation the other part is not given you a real choice is forcing you, plain and simple. you have to pick which one affect you the less, like i said in all the history since the industrial revolution all the updates to electronics devices came with a benefit to the consumer, because of competition, all the manufactures try to catch the most consumers modificating and adding benefits, they are not dowgrading like this case, if this was done before, heck even now we are been calculating with abacus, but no , all upgrades mean a benefit to the consumer, thats why the ps3 is different from the ps2 and ps1. plain and simple, i was a victim, because sony didnt compesate me, i paid full price for the device and this application was part of it.

    sony is confusing expectation of free repair” with “expectation of continued function after the warrany expires, which also might lead to a deliberate destruction of functionality by the manufacturer,and becuase of that they are the ones tha broke the terms and agreements that came with the box, when i paid full price for all the applications, and i was not compesated by this, heck even the other s fuctions were took way before i opened the box and start to use the device, so i cannot take back such said device to have a refound. thats wrong even if is called a “choice”

    #49 4 years ago

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