Xbox One: public reaction will only be complete once product is on the shelf, says Spencer

Wednesday, 12th June 2013 11:59 GMT By Dave Cook

Xbox One’s reveal is not a sprint, and will play out across E3 2013, gamescom and TGS, Microsoft’s Phil Spencer has suggested in a new interview. Public reaction and opinion can only be formed fully once the product is on retailer’s shelves, he has said.

Speaking with Gamespot, Spencer said, “We always knew that our story would play out over time. And even now, I would say, this isn’t a sprint. The platform launches this November; we’ve got more content to share.

“There are other means like Gamescom [and] TGS coming that will still continue to put a value [proposition] on what we’re bringing to market. The reaction, I think, is complete when the product is on the shelf and it has a price and it has a content library and consumers vote.”

Xbox One will cost you $499 / £429 come November, and Microsoft’s Don Mattrick has this morning said that people are imagining the negative aspects of the consoles ‘always-online’ authentication.

What do you make of the above? Let us know below.

Thanks IGN.



  1. Bomba Luigi

    So… don’t listening to anything anybody says from now on to Launch Day and just buy?

    …. No?

    #1 1 year ago
  2. aseddon130

    “once it’s on the shelf”

    you mean when it stays on the shelf and consumers pick up the PS4 instead ….

    #2 1 year ago
  3. Francis O

    Sony and Nintendo are going to destroy MS this holiday.

    #3 1 year ago
  4. aseddon130

    @3: Sony, yes. Nintendo no.

    #4 1 year ago
  5. wowtgp

    I am not a spammer anymore. Got a job finally.

    #5 1 year ago
  6. karma

    “Xbox One: public reaction will only be complete once product is on the shelf, says Spencer”

    Oh hes so right, only then will they see how hard they failed. I cant wait for the popcorn show when the realisation hits and they get desperate to save face. We all know its coming…

    #6 1 year ago
  7. orakaa

    “We still have time to screw things even more than we did so far”.

    It’s not surprising for Microsoft to keep being arrogant and think they’re on the right track. Look at the feedback they had with Windows 8, yet, they’re not listening. Truth is, they don’t listen to feedback, at all and only do what THEY think you must like.

    #7 1 year ago
  8. Battler624

    Of course that’s true.. the public will react when they see someone buying a X-1 off the shelf and they are thinking like “stupidity reached a new level”

    #8 1 year ago
  9. Droid

    The definition of the phrase ‘In denial’.

    #9 1 year ago
  10. Gnosis

    Wow, the amount of damage control statements is getting even bigger. I don’t think it’s a good idea to release that many, well, excuses. The community is not gonna listen anyway and it’s better for ppl will find out by themselves. Some ppl will buy it and tell about their experience first hand. If it really is not a big deal, then we’ll know about it without MS. If it is, ppl will simply accuse them of lying. It’s not gonna do them any good.

    #10 1 year ago
  11. Dimaco

    Yep. By that time it will be fully complete. And that will end with a lot of people not buying it, and getting PS4 instead. Cheers.

    #11 1 year ago
  12. Ekona

    So what happens if/when MS are proved correct, and the vocal minority hardcore who don’t buy it are outweighed by the silent majority who lap it up? Like the Wii scenario, basically.

    He’s absolutely correct in what he’s saying, in so far as that it’s only a failure if it doesn’t sell, not if thousands of people whinge like crazy on the interwebs.

    #12 1 year ago
  13. machy

    he has some points .. it’s a long way to lunch, but they need to take a hint we aren’t just gonna forget about all the restriction on the x1 and just buy one, sometimes the right thing to do is taking a step back … let the dam console be just like the 360 how hard is that, and they need to win at home 1st US is Xbox main domain which u r looooosing

    or else u’ll only ended with halo fan base and not all of them .. gamecom/tgc are at ps territories good luck with that

    #13 1 year ago
  14. orakaa

    If they are trying so much to justify themselves, it’s because they KNOW people are not happy, otherwise they would not even mention it. So yes, damage control.

    It’s just like those people who say that hardcore gamers are the vocal minority, that the voice of people reading videogames website don’t count.
    Try to think about this: do you REALLY think that execs, developers, publishers would bother to discuss/answer to video game journalists at all if our opinion didn’t matter? If we were really the vocal minority?

    Look at what happened with the Wii and the WiiU. Casual are not loyal customers and they easily change, especially as they were not “that interested” in the first place. The casual public Microsoft is chasing has already bought a smartphone, tablet or whatever.
    This public is not going to spend 500 euros for this. In Europe, they have no added value (no TV, TV, TV, no sports…)

    #14 1 year ago
  15. Francis O


    The Wii U is priced $200 cheaper than the Xbox One and has a brand new Mario game coming out for it. Yes, the Wii U will outsell the Xbox One. Not to mention I said “Nintendo” which includes the 3DS. And there are two Blockbuster games coming out for that system: Pokemon X & Y and The Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds.

    So I think my statement is true “Nintendo” (Wii U+3DS) will destroy Microsoft {360+Xbox One)

    #15 1 year ago
  16. Joe Musashi

    Strictly speaking, he’s correct. But by saying that it implies he’s dismissing the current public reaction.

    Probably not the message you want to send right now. And certainly not with the expression worn in the article picture.


    #16 1 year ago
  17. Froseidon

    @16 – I was about to say, what he is saying is correct. We actually cannot make a fully informed opinion on something until we get to see and use it first hand. Same with the PS4 as well, we all have good opinions of it now, its just up to Sony to deliver when it hits the shelves (something which shouldn’t be too hard for them in their current state).

    #17 1 year ago
  18. The_Red

    Am I the only who feels like MS execs are acting like a child who doesn’t want to hear something so they put their hands on their ears and try to talk loud or say “LALALALAAL I can’t HEAR YOU” until the system launches?

    #18 1 year ago
  19. Lloytron

    He’s right, its not a sprint – there is hopefully more to come out.

    But this is undermined by the fact that they announced a ‘day one’ edition with exclusive content in the hope to drive preorders.

    “Buy it now and get this free sticker, and at some point we may tell you more about what we are asking you to buy.”

    When you make Sony look humble, you really should question yourself.

    #19 1 year ago
  20. TF_PtMaster

    The system will work only in 21 countries at launch

    And the best thing you can’t import from another country, because you need to connect every 24 hours. KUDOS MS

    I respect the Xbox 360 legacy, i’ve made a lot of real friends trow Xbox Live, i’m a day one Xbox 360 buyer, but right know i’m finished with this

    #20 1 year ago
  21. CyberMarco

    Yeah… public’s reaction btw

    #21 1 year ago
  22. naffgeek

    Phil Harrison’s record for shitty console launches continues unabated (and I do mean Harrison as he was with Sony when they released PS3)

    #22 1 year ago
  23. CyberMarco


    Maybe he’s undercover and working for Sony to make the Playstation brand triumph again! :P

    #23 1 year ago
  24. yeoung

    For all the hoo-hah on the net these last few weeks, I’m fairly sure the xbox one is going to kick major ass in the NA market. For one, the entire device and its core- and side-functionality is specifically designed for that market.

    Aside from the masses of kids who want to play games but don’t read gaming sites and/or press releases, I’m fairly sure most parents aren’t aware of these issues either. With the amount of emerging tech in smartphones, tablets and dedicated devices, people become less tech-savvy and consume electronics for the sake of consuming electronics.

    Long story short, diminishing global market share, but xbox one is going to pretty much monopolize the NA market come 2015. Calling it.

    (I’m hooking up a PS4 myself though)

    #24 1 year ago
  25. viralshag

    I still think the sales will be good for the X1 because it has a lot to offer. The PS4 will definitely sell better at first with a price like that.

    #25 1 year ago
  26. naffgeek

    @23 if that is the case…job done :)

    #26 1 year ago

    It’s not all about price, though…

    Look how many people buy an iPad instead of a cheaper Galaxy Tab, or an iPhone instead of a cheaper HTC.

    #27 1 year ago
  28. Froseidon

    @27 – There is a lot of brand loyalty to Microsoft. Those that are moving from 360 to PS4 aren’t the ones the console is aimed at, as they aren’t brand loyal.

    The X1 will do well, its just the vocal few *on the internet* that are hating on the console. I feel as though its done good enough to make sales and have a profit.

    #28 1 year ago
  29. viralshag

    @27/28, I do agree to a point. I just think it’s a lot easier to compare the two as there’s more than just the Tab or iPad, iPhone or HTC. The variations and options are quite huge on phones and tablets.

    When it comes to consoles it really is just the Xbox, PS4 or WiiU. The low price can swing a lot of people I think, regardless of brand loyalty.

    I admit I’m coming more around to the idea of sticking with Xbox as I need to buy a PS+ sub which immediately adds £40 on to the price tag. Plus I’m not bothered about free old games as I have pretty much played/owned all of them.

    #29 1 year ago
  30. monkeygourmet


    But iPads are a newish status symbol. Apples devices cross pollinate and have a strong and quality user feedback because they work so well.

    When iPad’s were first introduced, everybody laughed. Then they used them and realised browsing is pretty fucking awesome on a tablet device. Coupled with smart phones, the tech took off in a big way.

    I can’t obviously comment till after X1 launches, but this device seems pointless. Baring the fact that the TV options will probably be for the US market only, it has yet to show many redeeming features.

    It’s less powerful than other devices, the Cloud feature is almost unexplained, Kinect 2.0 doesn’t even look as accurate as Kinect 1 was promised to be, it’s a huge premium price.

    The TV functions are generally available on most Sky boxes or media hubs anyway, Skype and chat is already available on a lot of other Smart TV’ s and devices…

    And we have yet to see a killer app.

    Titanfall comes closest, although this is also on 360 AND PC. Coupled with all the crazy DRM stuff, I just can’t see much to like in this new console.

    No offence, it seems like you had already made up your mind and Titanfall pushed you over the edge! :) why don’t you get a lovely rig, you’ll be able to use a X1 pad on it! :)

    #30 1 year ago
  31. DeVitowned

    Hell, compare iPhone sales to Samsung, not HTC. :D

    #31 1 year ago
  32. viralshag

    @30, Based on what we’ve seen the whole “less powerful” thing will take some time to prove, I haven’t seen anything that looks bad on either console but at the same time there’s nothing to me that looks like that extra power is being put to use.

    I mean most people seem to be sold based on the price (understandable), the policies of how the consoles connect to the internet (something both machines need to do if you want to get the most from the games) and policy on used games (where they both seem to be the same).

    #32 1 year ago
  33. zinc

    @27, Difference being the iDevices are a bit of a status symbol.

    Nobodies going to be showing off their xbone at the local cafe. Not unless they drag along their tv, cable box & Internet connection anyway.

    #33 1 year ago
  34. CPC_RedDawn

    They REALLY do have no clue.

    To put so many restrictions on your machine is absurd! People who say that all the people complaining about always online and the fact that they are online complaining is a joke. If my net went down now, I would not be able to type this message and if it didn’t come back on I would be straight on the phone to my ISP demanding to know why the service I pay for has stopped working and ask for a refund for the down time I suffer (which they do give).

    Microsoft really have no clue, they are trying to invade the home living/family room and trying to appeal to too many demographics. How many fights will the Xbox One cause between families, dad wants to watch sports and update his fantasy football, Daughter wants to play dance central, Mom wants to talk to relatives on Skype, Son wants to play Halo… It will be insane. Then when the net goes down the console is a very expensive BluRay Player as apparently that is all you can do on it once it does not authenticate every 24 hours.

    They are undermining the CORE demographic who will buy the system day one, and that is us GAMERS! I will give them credit they showed a ton of games at E3, and some of them do look very good. But charging £430 for a system that has the risk of becoming a brick, has the stupid used game policies, and has a camera that could be watching your every move (if you dont opt out that is).

    Sony have brought it, and they brought it big time. They have the games sorted (and yes they have MORE exclusives in development than Microsoft has so stop with that), they have the games, the movie/tv/music services, they are working to bring backwards compatibility to the system with streaming, they have a much sleeker and better looking console than the bricky block shape of the Xbox One, they have a better bigger redesigned controller, a camera peripheral in the works, can play used games, has the dvr functions, and is not always online. Oh did I mention is more powerful and comes priced $100/£80 cheaper!!!

    If ANY Xbox fanboy wants to try and argue with any of that then more fool them. And no I’m not a PS fanboy either, if anything I’m a PC fanboy. But when something is good I say it. The PS4 is leaps and bounds more appealing than Xbox One is.

    #34 1 year ago


    why don’t you get a lovely rig, you’ll be able to use a X1 pad on it!

    No thanks… I’ve been a PC gamer before, and I gave it up for the plug and play, simplicity of consoles.

    I wouldn’t mind playing games in 4k, but there are a ton of XBL features that PC just doesn’t offer right now.


    Sure, the example isn’t a direct one, but I think that if MS can make the X1 seem like a desirable, premium product, price wouldn’t be as much of an issue as it may have first seemed.

    #35 1 year ago
  36. Bomba Luigi

    In the End what counts could be the Money for Marketing. Microsoft does have one or two buck.

    I really see no Reason to buy one and don’t want one, and I like to make fun of it and so. But am I your average Console Customer? Not Really. So how much does that count?

    Well, I guess it will be at least very interessting to see the first Months of Consoles Sales between PS4 and Xbox One.

    #36 1 year ago
  37. salarta

    For some reason I think it would fit to draw a goatee and little devil horns on the picture that comes with this article. :P

    He’s partly right, partly wrong. He’s right that it can’t be fully judged until it’s out and people can use it, but he’s wrong to think that consumers are going to do any of that when they see the anti-consumer and anti-privacy “features” of the system.

    #37 1 year ago
  38. polygem

    i am SURE they are working very very hard right now to find a way watering down what they did there. for now, they should better just shut up though. they need to explain their idea and show the benefits of it /if there are any :) and not making bad excuses all the time. it just makes things worse atm and confuses even more. very bad. would even be more clever to REALLY make an excuse, to say, ok, we had a great vison in mind, we might have transported it wrong, maybe we even made mistakes but now we are listening and will try to fix as much as we can before it will launch. yes it would be obvious damage control, but this fight has become dirty and emotional, it would exactly be the right thing to do imo. make one step back, maybe even two, fix a few things and jump forward again. right now it´s just like this: ps4 is 100 euros cheaper, comes with 4 free games at launch, out of the box if you have ps+ (drive club, 3 indy games) and doesn´t have those pesky drm restrictions and a forced kinect to it. it just plain looks like the better deal…miles ahead. they have to work something out now to counter that. something big, otherwise they wont sell that thing that well. i don´t think average joe is ready to put down 500 euro for the xboxone.

    #38 1 year ago
  39. polygem

    “”"In the End what counts could be the Money for Marketing. Microsoft does have one or two buck.”"”

    yeah i agree,
    ms has a huge campaign in germany running right now (probably everywhere) about privacy and online security…

    then came PRISM

    now add some kinect 2.0 to PRISM

    they´ve lost my trust (finally completely), they do not match my taste in games anymore, they don´t allow me to sell my games, they force ads on me on a service i pay for, they make a machine that is 100 euros more expensive than the competiton.
    no marketing in the world can fix that.

    then again many people probably haven´t even heard about the NSA scandal.

    #39 1 year ago
  40. manamana

    I’m pretty shure that they’ll win the north-american market. It’s tailor made for them. The rest of the globe …

    #40 1 year ago
  41. salarta

    @40: I don’t think they’ll win even that market. As much as many features are tailor-made for the U.S., most of the features are also completely unnecessary or duplication of features that already exist on devices anyone that would conceivably get an XBox One are bound to already have. In addition, the price is a guaranteed killer.

    Most gamers aren’t going to flock to the XBox One because it’s far too anti-consumer and anti-gaming in scope, and the average person isn’t going to flock to it and throw $500 at a box whose only actual benefit so far is being able to say a channel’s name to get to it faster. Not even the “exclusive content” for things like “interactive television” or special TV programs is going to make people think “Hot damn, who needs a rent’s worth of money when I can spend $500 to watch two shows I can’t watch anywhere else!”

    The only viable market Microsoft has for this clusterfuck is businesses, because most of the features are ideal for a business setting and businesses can better afford $500 for a device than consumers, but even there it’s hurting because I doubt you can pull up Powerpoint slides or anything to that effect on the system.

    #41 1 year ago
  42. harr0w

    Ha all western governments have been spying on there people since the inception of the vote nothing going to change there.

    The one thing I find odd is there talking like the info thats yet to be revealed at gamescon & GDC is something that will temper the reactions of some of the gamers. Maybe its true maybe its not only time will tell.
    Saying that if they did have something to quell the masses of disappointed fans, and it is dissapointment. You think they would released something because I know I would of.

    #42 1 year ago
  43. deraj

    OMG Microsoft are going to tell me when I can react now??? Can I wipe my arse or do I need their permission for that too? It’s like a bottomless well of arrogance..

    #43 1 year ago
  44. Phoenixblight

    “its not us that is wrong, its the public” Genius, MS!

    #44 1 year ago
  45. viralshag

    @41, If all that really applied, then the iPad selling millions year after year really is a mystery. What does that do that a phone, laptop or desktop can’t?

    Not only that but they’re more expensive than an X1 and iPhones and smart phones aren’t that far off either without getting them on a contract.

    The price really isn’t that bad, like I’ve said before the PS4s price is simply better. The general public have proven time and time again that they’re willing to spend money on tech and often on tech that is more luxury than necessity.

    #45 1 year ago
  46. YoungZer0

    Good choice for the header image.

    #46 1 year ago
  47. DSB

    @44 Always a great move, right? When has that line ever failed?

    Looking at Microsoft, all I can see is the rudest awakening in that companies history on the horizon.

    It’s not really about the Xbox, that’s just Microsofts pet project, but Ballmer is going to try to make them a device company instead of the OS company, and if there’s something Microsoft are shit at, it’s devices.

    The only thing they have going for them is Windows, Windows, and Windows. They can fail at Windows, and still be making money on Windows.

    Ballmer isn’t Steve Jobs, and once that realization comes to strike Microsoft, it’s gonna be one hell of an impact.

    #47 1 year ago
  48. mightyhokie

    The real shame is that MS doesn’t need to do this.
    MICROSOFT’S actual policy…

    Their trade/buy/borrow/sell policy is almost the same as Sony’s, only they NEVER defend that. MS’s policy is ‘its up to the publisher’ but the message and perception most gamers get and hear is ‘you have to pay a fee to play out games’. Sony’s statement was ‘you can play however you want’ then later stated ‘its up to the publisher’…yet all anyone heard was ‘you can play anyway you want’. Man, they mishandled this from the beginning. They should be shouting from the mountaintops that ‘WE DON’T CHARGE A FEE TO PLAY USED GAMES AND YOUR FRIENDS CAN BORROW YOUR GAMES’. But instead all we get is ‘you guys will figure it out once you wise up’.

    I’m still going to get the One. I waverd a bunch when i heard that they were charging for used games (which doesn’t affect me at all but it is the principle). Once a friend sent me that link I just posted from MS’s site that tells what actually is the case I was like ‘okay, sold’. I’m neither a MS nor Sony fanboy…I want the best and the One offers the same gaming experience as the PS4 AND it has all the entertainment stuff that my family uses. So for me I want an Xbox One. Nothing against Sony, i wish them luck and for all I know they just won this generation. Believe me, my heart will not bleed for mega-corporation Microsoft. But since I’m NOT a fanboy of either I can be objective. The $100 price dif isn’t as big a deal because I believe the entertainment stuff makes up for that. For me it was the DRM stuff and now that I know what it is I’m comfortable with that.

    #48 1 year ago
  49. Sylrissa

    I don’t have to check in with big brother every 24 hours on a PS4
    I can give my physical disk to my friend and she can pop it in and play it without an internet connection, or having to be on my friends list for 30 days and have me authorize her to be allowed to play it

    So pretty sure my friend can still not come over and borrow my game and take it home and play it, and that is unacceptable

    and the 100 is actually a huge difference to people on a struggling budget.

    #49 1 year ago
  50. Gnosis

    I wonder if they still expect to sell 100 mil units.

    #50 1 year ago
  51. salarta

    @45: Tablets like iPad are essentially an alternative to laptops, and they operate much, much differently from what Microsoft is trying to do with XBox One. And citing cell phones doesn’t work here either, because what cell phones like the iPhone combined with 3G introduced was the ability to have an easily transportable computer with an internet connection in your pocket. They weren’t trying to take the place of your computer, TV and CD player or break into those markets, instead they created an entirely brand new market with a form of functionality you absolutely could not get anywhere else.

    The scheme of XBox One for many of its features is not unlike those refrigerators that have Twitter functionality built into them, because obviously the one thing people needed most of all out of a refrigerator was the ability to post to Twitter. Just like XBox One desperately needed the ability to clumsily use the internets through a TV screen instead of a computer or cell phone.

    #51 1 year ago
  52. viralshag

    @51, you completely missed the point, which was about price. You said “average” people will not spend $500 but it seems to me plenty of people will spend that kind of money on tech which they don’t actually need. Often they will will have an expensive tablet, usually some form of desktop or laptop and a smartphone.

    The price might not look good to frugal gamers but there’s definitely a market there proven many times by luxury tech sales.

    #52 1 year ago
  53. Cort

    I have to say I am impressed by the uber-troll’s ability get get Sony into any discussion.

    Da Man, what is your view of the human genome project and its implications for the future of public health?

    #53 1 year ago
  54. Cort

    Hm, hm, yes, interesting. But what about the implications for life insurance? Don’t you think Sony blah blah blah.

    #54 1 year ago
  55. Cort

    Sorry, still just getting “blah blah blah”.

    #55 1 year ago
  56. Ireland Michael

    @53 Nobody “needs” 90% of the stuff they own.

    I paid $400 for my iPad while in the states in 2012. It has essentially replaced my PC for everything other than writing since then. I haven’t surfed VG247 from a computer in over a year.

    I’m not buying a console for the same reason as I’m buying an iPad. Its a case of value for money. You’re comparing apples or oranges.

    For me, my personal flat entry price for *any* technology is $400 maximum, full stop. Anything higher is a no go.

    #56 1 year ago
  57. Cort

    Blah blah blah.

    And I bet I know what your next comment is going to be. It will be something like:

    “Blah blah blah”.

    #57 1 year ago
  58. viralshag

    @59, so you have a PC and still bought an iPad. I doubt you’re the only one. I have a PC and an iPad.

    I don’t see how that changes the fact the price isn’t extortionate? Most people could buy cheaper tablets than the Apple brand. Some do and some don’t. My point is the price isn’t that much of a system killer.

    #58 1 year ago
  59. salarta

    @53: I gravitated toward answering what I thought was your point, which turned out to be more poignant to this issue than the one you meant. If you re-read my post, I didn’t stop at “$500.” There’s more to it than just the price, what you actually get for that price is what matters most, and XBox One offers next to nothing worthwhile while taking a whole lot away.

    #59 1 year ago
  60. orakaa

    Microsoft will invest TONS of money in their marketing campaigns.
    The problem is that nowadays it doesn’t guarantee sales.

    Look at Surface. In my country, you can see advertising for Surface EVERYWHERE, be it on TV, in stores, on the street, on the web, etc.
    Despite the tremendous amount of money spent, the sales are ridiculously low. No one is interested. Too expensive, etc.

    So maybe Microsoft will manage to sell a lot of units in US, because TV, TV, TV. But except there? A console that cost 100$/€ more, for no real outstanding benefit? Why would you buy it in Europe for instance? It’s more expensive, doesn’t bring anything more compared to PS4.
    Even Kinect: if Kinect really is a tech that interests you (and let’s be honest, Kinect’s interest is absolutely not in gaming so far), then you probably have bought one. You can also access Netflix, etc.
    Why would you get a new big box for $500… to do the same?

    If Sony does a good advertising campaign, they are quite likely to destroy Xbox One.

    #60 1 year ago
  61. ps3fanboy

    i have seen the microsoft world map of unsupported countries, its like over the half of the countries in the world.. while sony support the whole world and all countries can buy and use their product. i must laugh of microsoft arrogance, to think that they will be successful when their xbox one hit the shelves at 499…. LOL!

    #61 1 year ago
  62. Lengendaryboss

    It must be real lonely in that cloud of judgement of yours :)

    #62 1 year ago
  63. coloredlense

    Microsoft is exceedingly arrogant about their sales potential with what they’ve done. The issue isn’t about content, it’s about how when it rains here, my internet goes out.

    Currently I live in a location where if it rains the internet goes out. If it rains for 2 days, that’s 2-3 days (or more for drying out) that an XboxOne would be nothing but a high priced fancy bluray player. And I don’t have control over that, that’s the shitty telecom/cable service that’s available to me, in a “first world” country.

    I find it hard to care about content, if that content will be unuseable because I can’t access it.

    #63 1 year ago
  64. zoopdeloop

    @61 actually it’s
    “blah blah blah” fart “blah blah blah” fart

    if you can’t hear it you can smell it :P

    #64 1 year ago

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