Valve hardware division hoping to launch public beta next year

@48 That’s not really the whole story. Sometimes, you pop in a disc, you meet a prompt, you look at a download bar, you restart.

That doesn’t happen on the PC. Discs are a thing of the past, updates are automated, and you always have choice. Nobody needs brick and mortar anymore. They can get their games faster and cheaper online.

The scenario you’re setting up may have been relevant 10 years ago, when consoles could get away with having anemic digital components and basic design, but it’s fallen very far behind over the years.

I was pretty shocked to go back to my 360, and I actually made a forum post about it. It’s amazing how using a console in 2012 can actually leave you wishing for devices that are something like 10-20 years old. The design is just awful.

I don’t feel like I’m being convenienced, I feel like I’m stuck in 1998.

There is a big difference between a vintage PC game and a vintage console game tho Dragon. I am currently playing Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst. I have the game on max settings and it rivals todays current gen system(maybe better because of full screen AA effects).

I also own the game for Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Xbox one(PSO is one of my fav all time games). Not only is the PC one graphicly miles ahead, but the extra content is robust and insane. I use a xb360 pad to play.

One of the big deals/trends is to put out HD remakes of older console titles. From stuff like Jet Set Radio to games like the PS2 God of War. We see that all of the time. But with PC most of the old games are in HD already. And many of them have extra content via mods that expand the game.

Am I being some sort of PC elitest? No, but I am showing you, or trying to, that it isn’t just an open and shut case. PC is very compeling. I have NES games running in HD, on my PC. Graphics aren’t everything of course. But I think as far as PC gaming goes, you will find a lot of folks that still play older games. And the fact that the games look crisp and sharp has a lot to with that. You don’t get that generational gap that seperates one console game system from another. I just recently fired up my copy of Destruction Derby on PSone. I found it hard to play, the graphics and frame rate where tough. I used to love that game. If that game where on PC, it run smooth as glass.

So you are right about vintage games being better on PC. I just wanted to add that vintage doesn’t have to conjuire up this image of old, outdated and graphicly inept games. A great game is a great game. And the back catalog of PC games is vast. It is one of the things that gives it such value, imo.

Don’t know how the 360 does updates, but on the PS3, after it downloads a patch, the game restarts automatically. Doesn’t require me to restart the game. And I can download plenty of full games on my PS3 as well. I know you can do that on the 360 as well.

As I said, I don’t have time to go research which parts are the best or to find out what specs I need for a particular game to get optimal performance out of it, blah blah blah. Pop in a disc. Disc works. Download game. Game works. End of story. And I’m good for half a decade, at least.

I don’t ever worry that, oh, this game’s going to look like shit because I didn’t upgrade my graphics card or whatever.

#51 DSB “They can get their games faster and cheaper online”

I dont want to start another discussion, but thats the problem, is not their game at the end, at least the very definition of ownership in digital media, especially in gaming, is very ambiguous, i think untill we have laws that rule this in the proper way, or rules that establish in a very concrete way what we do own?, and what they do own?, digital only is not that feasible IMHO.

Last computer I used mostly to play games was a C64. Never had to upgrade that.

lol I loved the C64, those were the golden ages of gaming right there. Great time to be a gamer. I had boxes and boxes of flopy discs!

@53 I think you’re making it a lot more complicated than it has to be.

It’s pretty easy to find out which setup is going to hold you over for the next many years.

If you don’t want to do that, that’s obviously your choice, but I’d rather have a bit of inconvenience right now, than a lot of inconvenience for years to come, which is what I get on a console.

And instead of simply allowing people to make it better, like an open platform, you have to wait for the console manufacturer to either get a clue, or have mercy on the users who have to suffer that design.

Not to mention the lack of digital games. I can’t remember the last time I was in a games store. Two clicks and it’s downloading.

What I can see as a disadvantage is the price. A gaming rig costs a lot of money, and pretty much anyone is going to have to save to afford it. Ultimately it depends on how much you demand when you game, and what kind of options you want.

I can listen to music, check Facebook, be writing for work, or load up a game within seconds, never using more than 20 clicks to do it. To me that’s worth paying for.

@54 Again, you don’t own your games today. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can stop worrying about it. If people wanted to take your games, they’re fully within their rights to, whether it’s on a disc or on an HDD.

Wake me up when that actually becomes a problem. Nobody has ever taken a game from me.

“I think you’re making it a lot more complicated than it has to be.”

That is the crux of it right there for me. It isn’t what some folks think/say it is.

Also I agree on the owning stuff.

That being said, consoles are easier. Esp the Wii and XB360. PS3 is a bit of a fuddity duddity. But what I would give up in favor of that small bit(and it is just that a small bit) of convienance is not worth it. PC just offers so much more, imo.

But ultimatly to each their own.

I can see PC having less value if your in one of those places with very poor internet.

DSB “@54 Wake me up when that actually becomes a problem. Nobody has ever taken a game from me”

DSB the thing is they dont need to take away the game from the user, they change the TOS and EULA, to their likings without any external control, and if the user wont accept the new change, then he/she cannot access the games under his/her account and the ones the user did paid for them, thats a forcing situation IMHO, they are not taking directly the games from you, thats true, but it is done very subtle, like the valve change of TOS and EULA.

Also i dont want to wait to see that happen in order to react, lest have a preventive mind instead of a reaction one, i dont like to see people affected by this, if we can act priorly in order to avoid it, more empathy is not bad.

DSB with physical media we have the first sale rule, that basecally says that i can sell, give away, gift , etc the physical games, the TOS and EULAS, are done under this principle i mean with the first sale rule, therefore there is some ownership right there, the thing is they said, the providers, is not a sale just a license, but they have the first sale rule on the TOS and EULA, thats ambigous, and that needs clarification, if we dont have a clear environment, something shouldnt be implemented, thats not saying down with digital because i dont like, what iam saying is we need to clarify certain things that are critical for those transactions.

“I have a PS3. I put a game in. It plays”

Now we all know that is not the case for a large percentage of games on PS3. It can take hours to install (mandatory) and patch a PS3 game.

@59 For the 50th time….

Once they start taking our games away, I’ll worry.

Until then, I think they’re slightly more interested in making money and selling games, than using their incredible power as a videogames publisher-or-retailer to take over the world and oppress the masses.

And even then I’m sure Guy Fawkes and Natalie Portman will find a way to stop them.

I also agree with manu about gamer rights. But I kind of figure that next gen the shift will be away frm boxed products to digital ones. Meaning that the same problems he is talking about on PC will become a problem on Console.

Keep in mind too Manu thatlast gen MS just pulled the plug on LIVE. If you had a game on xbobx one LIVE that you played, you were out of luck. Live for the first xbox was just killed nearly over nite. I lost the ability to play both boxed and digital products. I don’t think they ould do that going foward, but it would stink if all of a sudden I couldn’t redownload Pinball FX2 tables if I needed to.

I think DSB is right in regaurds to us not owning anything. The trick, for game companies, is to not let us figure that out. If Sony, for example, redesigns PSN and makes PSN+ subscriptions the only way to play online with PS4, we either sign up or stop using it. But, we don’t have a say. Just like you pointed out, they can change the tos and eula anytime they want. They make the rules.

Another strike against consoles, they are closed systems and the platform holders have near complete control. In terms of services. What is nice, is that we can still go play older systems w/o hassle. But going forward, in the modern digital/online gaming world, there will be little difference between PC and consoles. Imo. ‘Cept of course that one is closed and the other is open.

#61 So in the case a user dont agree with the new TOS and EULAS, are they not taking away his/her games?, at least he/she cannot access them, if some people didnt click accept, they did loose it, at least thats an strong possibility there, therefore for me it is not a thing of “when that happens”, the thing is “if can happen”, and clearly this can happen here, and iam not fine with that notion.

@63 Honestly I couldn’t care less. Some people are just too paranoid to be on the internet to begin with.

I clicked accept and surprise…. Nothing happened.

Did you know you could be hit in the head with a satellite right now? Better start building that bunker, and finding a way to stop all the space programs.

OG iam not saying we own the games or that we are entitle, but theres clearly an ambiguity torwards this situation, first the providers indicate is not a sale, is a license, but the TOS and EULAS are done with the first hand sale, which let you sell, give away, keep the game if you dont do anything wrong, like a book or something, because it was done for physical things, therefore you dont loose your game no matter what, now if we dont agree we loose our access, and they are applying this to digital things, the ownership thing in digital is not clear, not for us the users, not for them and not for the laws, thats why i dont see it right, i mean basing an entire new way of distribution without putting everything clear and crisp, with the rules that will define this transaction, thats with what i dont agree, the ambiguity in such a delicate issue, it is not physical but has some rules that are for physical things, thats mindbending, i am with the notion that everything should born in the right way, clear with all the rules, if thats doesnt the case it shouldnt be born at all, and that applies to everything in life, because that leads to chaos and abuse for all parts involve.

#64 DSB “I clicked accept and surprise…. Nothing happened”

That was the best possible escenario, iam glad for you, but that doesnt mean the other, in which you didnt clicked accept, shouldnt exist or doenst exist, which lead you yo loosing all the access to the games you pay, license or bought, that is the crux of this.

@65 Dude, grab the nearest manual you have from a physical product. Go to the last page. Read the fucking EULA.

Now scream with terror.

I just looked at mine for Red Dead Redemption. Reselling the game is actually a direct violation of the license.

“License Conditions: You agree not to commercially exploit the software. b) Distribute, lease, license, sell, rent or otherwise transfer or assign the software”

It’s every bit as clear as it is online.

Thing is, if you’re that desperate to be afraid of these companies, that’s your right. But then you should stop buying games.

You’re accepting these TOS, and accepting the EULA every single time you do. You’re aknowledging that you have no right to the software, in any way.

What you have a right to, is the personal use of it. That’s the license you’re buying.

It’s amazing how you can apparently accept that if it’s written in a manual, but not if it’s written on a webpage.

#67 DSB thats the problem it is a physical thing, is very different that digital , why digital is done with the same rule as physical?, and with physical you dont loose anything if you follow those rules under that license, that physical EULAS are done with the first sale rules, therefore if you dont violate anything, they cannot restrict the access you have of the physical thing, lets say a book, you keep it, you are following the EULA and the first sale rule, but in this case case you follow the rules, but dont accept the new ones, that were changed without any control, then you loose all the access, why i loose if i did what they physical first rule said on the original EULA?, and why they are forcing me to accept new ones, knowing if i dont accept i will loose it, this doesnt happen with physical,mind you, theres the ambiguity which i dont agree with it.

Where would we be without our trusty tinfoil hats, eh?

CLICKING TOS AGREEMENTS. THAT’S WHERE, MAN!

Goddamn mind-fingers and brain radio man, they got us wired man… Wirelessly!

@69 Again, read the TOS. Please read the TOS. They reserve the right to change them whenever they want, they collect your gamertags, they log you whenever you use them, they reserve the right to deactivate the product at their convenience.

The exact same as a digitially distributed game.

I have no idea why you choose to believe that it’s different, but it’s not.

Nobody’s taking my physical games away, any more than they’re taking my digital games away.

The TOS/EULAs say the exact same things.

You can continue to lie to yourself and actually believe that they’re different, but that’s your problem man. You have the opportunity to educate yourself and take a serious look at the situation. Last page of the manual.

If you choose to focus on what might happen, instead of what is happening, and fail to realize that it’s the exact same whether you’re buying a physical or a digital product, then I think you’re just creating a problem for yourself.

I obviously can’t convince you differently, so I reckon I’m better off spending my time enjoying my nice big digital library

Right now I’m thinking Johnny Mnemonic and that you’re all a bunch of Lo-Teks.

DSB they are not the same, i can sell the book, but not the digital game, and both EULAS from the physical and digital media are done with the first sale rule, which allows this for physical, i mean selling, but not for digital, therefore why i can sell the physical thing, without violating anything, but not with digital, clearly theres a differentiation, although they are based on the same premise or rule.

I think as time moves forward the tos/elua stuff will be a bigger issue. I hope EU can lead the way and force a few changes, and then that my backwards nation will follow. I say backwards because my nation puts bizz above citizens, sellers above buyers. Not as bad as some other nations, but bizz gets away with an aweful lot of crap.

@73 And absolutely none of that means that your games are taken away.

#75 DSB i was replying that you say they are the same, digital and physical,but they are not, even if they had the same premise the first sales rule, they are treated differently by the providers which incides over the level of what you can do with them, therefore the providers didnt want to grant the user with this option, i mean selling, under their TOS and EULAS, even tough is on the premise of the first sale rule,which they are based on, so basecally they are doing what they want without any form of control from anybody, like a law and third party institution, etc, but they cannot change the issue that this is a sale, because it is done or based under the first sale rule, which allows the user to do a lot of things with their purchase, and one of them is keeping the physical thing, if the user do not violate any copyright rulings of course, therefore it is not for me to say if they are the same or different, but is clearly an evidence that we need proper rulings, because this is a very ambiguous topic, it is a sale or a license, if it is a license it cannot be based onto the first sale rule, because it is not a sale, if it is a sale it will grant the user a lot of possibilities like selling, keeping the games regardless of updates, etc, see where the ambiguity lies, thats what are they doing now it is a license with a sale ruling, and thats why i said we need a clear enviroment prior establishing this as a proper distribution media, we cannot do this with so many uncertanties, which incide in the possesion of the games the user does have.

Wow, some stupid PC nerd made an ignorant post about him not being able to use an Xbox 360 properly. This something fresh, search engines need it.

Better go check it out.

Whereas we’re really in danger of running out of console fanboys who turn into an insecure, defensive little blob at the slightest mention of criticism.

Glad you’re still around Da Man.

Oi, if I was an insecure fanboy I’d be creating threads about my toy nemesis on the forum, going into alcoholic rage mode the moment I turn on a PC.

You’re welcome, genius.

Mhm.

Fanboyism aside the thing to take away from these past few years is that the gap between console hardware releases has cemented the PC, in many peoples minds, as the ‘better’ system.

I’m pretty curious to see what impact the PS4/Nextbox will have on this trend.

#81 i think it is because the lifecycle of this console generation was the biggest, therefore the graphics gap is more noticeable than ever before, although iam not a graphics whore, well just for cel shaded not realistic ones.

#80 The irony..

I think people are gonna be as hyped as they always are whenever a new system hits, and that’s never good for the PC, but I think what’s gonna give them real longevity is the way they’re gonna take over your TV.

There are quite a few serious barriers to providing something like television, especially in the US, but I think they should be throwing everything into that.

If a console can be a cheaper, simpler way to get something that will replace a cable or satellite subscription, then it’ll really transcend just being a gamer product. I don’t see that as an area where the PC can really compete.

I can watch Netflix and NFL games on my computer, but it’ll always be better on a big TV.

I would agree with you guys about the length of this hardware cycle.

Too long.

I am less interested in the impact the PS4/XBXNXT will have on the industry and more interested on the industries impact on the PS4/XBXNXT. I don’t think the platform holders have such the stranglehold on the game industry as they once did. And I don’t think the core demographic is as important to that conversation as it once used to be.

Just take a look around.

Poeple have been leaving AAA console games in droves. PC and mobile are huge, much bigger now then when this gen started. Market demographics have expanded. Games like Angry Birds and Minecraft change the tone of the conversation. F2P isn’t just some futuristic buzz word, it is here and it works. The economy is terrible in most places. A strong yen could easily tie Sonys hands(Nintendo gets a pass because they don’t make upper tech heavy systems and gives them more wiggle room where pricing is concerned).

I don’t think PS4/XBXNXT systems will have an impact at all on those things. But rest assured that those things will impact the systems.

How will Sony/MS adapt to their enviroment?

Look at Vita, take into consideration all of what I just said. Now ask yourself if they released the right product? I say no. And if they make the same mistakes with PS4, Sony could be in big trouble. Vita didn’t have an impact on anything. But the enviroment it was released into won’t support the system. I hope Sony learns from that.

I am telling you guys right now, MS will clean up next gen. I suspect MS to have 60%+ of the market share hardware and (possibly even)software next gen. And that may not be reason to rejoice, even if your a Xbox fan. MS will monitize the shit out of us.

But we will have to see what happens.

Polly wants a long winded cracker.