So my lovelies.. feel free to come troll me over here:
So my lovelies.. feel free to come troll me over here:
• First line, first paragraph - "seen" should be "seeing".
• First line, last paragraph - "item" should be "time".
• Comment: "Have you ever thought that the reason women don’t play games is because you’ve never shown them that they can?"
• Response: Couldn't agree more, in so many ways.
• Comment: "Don’t waste item trying to work out what might captivate a female audience because the answer is simple: the same as what works for men!"
• Response: Bit of a sweeping generalisation, I'd say that applies only to specific demographics (taste is not universal). True or not, either way I'd still like to see a proper rom-com videogame developed.
Have you ever considered sexist women to be part of the problem?
Case & Points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5SgA9d9gQ
The new promotion for the Clio. The link above is the mens version. When it was first released there was multiple people saying it was so sexist and insulting to women.
However, if you take the time to look at the bigger picture, there's actually two versions of the promotion equally being advertised.
Above is the womans version..and have a guess what, you don't see anyone saying it's sexist to men.
I'm not by any means saying sexism isn't around, but men are much of the issue as women. So until the rest of the worlds women start acting non-sexists, how do you expect the men to?
I'm well aware sexism works both ways and I am just as unhappy about it when it's against men, but before I can start to help out with that issue, I have to focus on this one.
re: the ads (which are great) - was the female one advertised just as much? I mean neither one of those bother me, I never did understand the notion of using sexuality to sell things.
I would never, ever say that sexism is a one way street. But I would say it's quite prevalent and anti-female in the games industry for sure. I don't think I've seen anything anti-male in videogames, and that's how it should be.. if we could just sort it out for women too that'd be great.
I think CoD and Battlefield are bad examples to use, because really they're just conforming to reality. Women in the US and UK don't get assigned to combat duties, so putting them in either game would make less sense than not doing it.
I know you listed that as one of your default strawmen, but it doesn't work like that. You can't blame someone for adding content that has no bearing on the reality portrayed in the game. Games may not be real, but they're still programmed in the real world, and a lot of them are meant to portray that world. Blame the military before you blame the people making games about it.
Brink is perhaps the best one because it actually portrays some semblance of politics and values. Not having women there makes absolutely no sense for either faction.
Was having same conversation with my mate, apparently all men think that "realism" is an acceptable argument. I see it as nothing more than a convenient excuse, because I accept that games aren't real, and I embrace that games make us equals.
What about TF2?
Reality is somehow a "convenient excuse"? I think that's patronizing to games. Games aren't a vehicle simply meant for preaching political ideas or values, any more than any other medium. Sometimes it's simply a depiction of the reality we live in, and it has every right to make itself recognizeable as such.
Until the military takes it upon itself to change that reality, they can hardly be held accountable for it. If you were trying to depict a boys locker room, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to pack it full of women either, but somehow that's a fair expectation to you? Bullshit.
The military is a boys club being depicted as a boys club. Deal with it, or try to change it, but don't blame people for describing it like it is.
If every piece of entertainment was "meant" to be perfectly representative of a persons personal beliefs and values, rather than the fulfillment of the artistic vision they have for it, I think entertainment would start to become a misrepresentative term.
So basically you feel games should be held back by reality? Or that at the very least they are limited to evolve at the same pace? What a grim picture that'd paint for future games.
So in other words, in 10-20 years time when women are prevalent on the battlefield, then it'll be "acceptable" in games? See, that's what you should call bullshit on.
There are no rules over who can and can't play games; right now, today. Because games are games, they're not real life. Realism is an absolutely ridiculous excuse.
If you think I don't understand that the designers have a specific vision and want to adhere to it, you're wrong. I do understand that, and I'm fine with it, in single player, where a story is a story and sure, war stories to date are very much male orientated.
Multiplayer has no storyline. Spawn, shoot some people, die, repeat. Or in my case, spawn, die, repeat. I don't see what argument you could possibly have against female avatars in this environment. I see excuses abound, but no actual solid argument - it seems more like you (and others) take offence, to the point they feel ANGRY, at the simple and harmless notion that a woman wants to feel welcome and included in a game, not alienated or isolated as we are currently.
Also, what about TF2? ;)
See, here's my problem with using reality as a reason to keep women out in a game like Call of Duty...how many shots does it take to kill a person in real life? How many shots does it take to kill someone in Call of Duty? If you get shot in the hand, does your aiming get fucked up for the rest of the game? If you get shot in the leg, do you have to crawl? If you get shot in the pelvis, can you still walk?
You can't say that it has to conform to one portion of reality while completely ignoring another.
What was the reason Gearbox used for not having female avatars in its Aliens MP?
Never did understand that one...
Wasn't there a post on this website reporting someone saying that the reason female characters aren't really present in video games is because of money? they don't bring back enough money to the publishers/devs whoever put it in their pockets?
You really don't have to go deeper than that. Other than that, it'd be because majority of devs don't really want to build one or something like that.
Anyway, what really needs this industry in order to pop make female characters IMO is more female developpers (artists, programmers, etc).
@silkvg247 I feel like you're the one who wants to limit games by making designers check those boxes regardless of what they're doing, in order to somehow appeal to everyone, and offend no one. I don't think entertainment is supposed to appeal to everyone, and I think any creator has every right to exclude or include whatever he feels is appropriate for his work.
I think the main thing holding games back right now is exactly that mentality. Creators are handed a checklist of "Shitz datz sells" from the pop psychology department, and then they go to work creating yet another everything-to-everybody forgettable matinée.
If a designer wants to make a funny, faux-chauvanist teambased shooter like Team Fortress 2 (MANN CO!) then that's exactly what they should do, instead of polling to see if the feminists are "okay with that".
As long as it isn't aimed at degrading women, I don't see a problem with it. Far be it for me to say whether that game would've been better with women in it, or not, but the designer already made that call, and I think it's a good game as is.
There also aren't any asians, dwarves, disabled, elderly, native American or hispanics in Team Fortress 2, but you don't see those groups complaining about it. Maybe the designer didn't feel like checking those boxes, for that game.
@Clupula Personally I think there's a big difference between what we recognize and accept as mechanics, and actual narrative content. We accept healthbars magically refilling and bulletholes disappearing, in the same way that we accept timelapses in books or movies, or interludes in theatre productions, but would we accept a level being filled full of pixelated purple elephants reminding us to drink Coca Cola?
That's the difference between narrative and mechanics.
@DSB I already covered the race excuse on my blog. Gender is a higher level than age, race and so on, and you know it.
I'm not a feminist, and I'm not "offended" actually, by the lack of female avatars. I am however, worried about it.. and I'm worried that the trend is growing. I've been here the whole time, grown up, watched it happen. I don't want to see the videogame industry continue to bury itself into a male only audience. It's stupid and pointless, it's self harming.
You seem to take this as a woman moaning for the sake of it, when actually the thing I'm trying to achieve is to grow our hobby/culture across both genders - really not sure why you'd argue against that. If you carefully read what I post you should be well aware that I'm not anti-male in any way, shape or form. It'd be nice to see that work both ways.
@DSB, A very nice, eloquent post.
Couldn't ask for a better apology for lazy desgn.
Because that's all it is really. Avatar creation for MP? Oh that doesn't fit in with our aesthetic .
Sounds better than, well why bother?
@silkvg247 As far as that we agree. Videogames is a young medium, it should be exploring and seeking more new territory than any of the others, but instead it's being treated like a commodity business, selling prefabricated concepts instead of experiences.
I'm not sure I'd label that as overt sexism. More like greed and an overwhelming arrogance saturating the industry. I'm sure they'd love a woman's dollar as much as a man's, they're just too stupid and complacent to go after it.
I don't agree that race is somehow less worthy than gender. I think that's incredibly biased. I'm sure everybody would like to be represented positively in a movie or videogame, I don't see why women should get preference over any of those groups. Not everyone is defined by the junk they're carrying.
But if it is just about wishing there were more games directed at women, I just don't see the sense in calling out those other games, with the exception of Brink. They really just have a different focus.
Asking for token female roles where they don't belong is just bonkers to me. How many mob movies have female roles squeezed in just to keep everybody happy? How many war movies? Art imitates life. Blame life for that, not art.
^ Blame life not art...
Depressing, condescending & utter bollocks.
pro-tip: Its the other way around.
there i win the argument
Pro-Tip: No. Art always reflects reality.
Times infinity + 2.
So you're not allowed to disagree with Oscar Wilde? That would be fucking awful.
Pro-tip: Art merely reflects people's perception of reality, which as always is subjective.
Times infinity squared
Pro-Tip: Infinity is infinity, and "Times infinity + 2", "Times infinity squared".
I win the argument. :P
Art doesn't reflect reality, it reflects our perception of what reality should be.
(lol zinc) I was typing this as you were sending yours)
btw Silk +1
Stop snipping with comments aimed at explaining the why of something like this. The fact is your just making excuses or validating someone elses.
@OG, Great minds think alike old boy ;-)
I guess you can be vague and relativist to the point where even the most boneheaded argument somehow becomes plausible, but reality is a bit different.
If you're drawing a tree and it looks like an elephant, you're a surrealist. If the tree looks like a tree, you're probably going for a more realist style.
In the same way, if you're making a game about identifiable American soldiers in foreign fields and you add women in combat roles, you're not depicting the United States military, you're depicting an imaginary one.
It may not pander to your personal values and beliefs, but that's just kinda tough luck. Have a cookie.
DSB, my family has a lot of ties to the US Military. My wife served in the US Air Force, my oldest son is currently serving and my youngest son is a JR in HS, and already talking to recruiters. Women are allowed in many combat roles. Not all.
I recall a friend of our that was stationed in the Middle East, I won't say which nation. She was on patrol, became surrounded by a crowd of unarmed locals(men). Was a busy street. They begain bumping into her and poking at her. She had full uniform on, but was under a full dress/sheet/gown as was the rule for us service women. The men were grabing at her, and she ignored them as best she could, but one of them managed to uncover her head. As she tells it, a crowd gathered and the men started pushing and shoving her hard. She had red hair, locals took that as a sign of the devil or some such shit and it set them off.
After one of them landed a punch square on the side of her head, she pulled her Rifle out from under her robe thingie and and got them to back the hell off. Ofc they were babbling at her but they backed off and she went about her way.
What is my point?
Women in the services and doing certian jobs is not always a simple gender based issue. Had a man been on patrol those particular locals would have left him alone.
Most of us live in a very sheltered and protect, almost bubble like day to day world. And in being men, we precieve very little as wrong. The world was rather built around philisophicly, sociologicly around a male dominated and male centric point of view. It is easy to sit back and see someone speaking out as bitching, complaining, or unrealistic or whatever. Because as men, we often live in a different reality then women do. And our pov is different because of it.
Video games are such a simple thing. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things. What is the harm in breaking the mold a bit and sticking selectable genders in game? Women play games. Alot of women play games. And deviding games up based on generes for certian genders is the same kind of thinking that those locals men in my story followed by believing there is an acceptible difference in the way a women should be treated vs a man. I know much different scope, I get that.
But it just a game.
I can play Astro Pop like a mofo. I am damn good at it. Despie it being a casual game, one that my wife actualy bought for herself and enjoys. I can blow past her scores at will. My wife is much better at L4D then I am, despite that being a game I purchased. My wife is also the backbone of any WoW Raid I have ever run. She is the Main Tank healer, and play exceptionaly well, she constantly got rucruited from raiding guilds. I don't believe that Gender had anything to do with any of that.
I think women get pigeon holed into roles. And I think it is wrong. I think they have a right to speak out and draw attention to that. In our western soicieties women are not property. Not belongings. Not dependants(my wife is a project lead for a fortune 100 company)(she makes far more money then I do). I think at some point it would be nice if the industry could grow up a bit beyond its 17 year old male phasaid that it hides behind.
Isn't it such a simple thing in the end? Allowing female avatars in a game? Hard to argue against it really.
Actually if your going to make a military shooter depicting the modern American army, theirs no excuse to NOT include female avatars.
Keep making those excuses for the limitation of our gaming choices and I'll have milk with my cookie thanks.
@DSB multiplayer games/maps ARE imaginary scenarios.
A woman is a human, as a man is a human, though it's interesting to note you feel the genders are so different that you compare it to surrealism. I mean what.. come on. Even I know we're not all that different.
Back to the race thing.. yes race is beneath gender. Of COURSE it is. Gender is hierarchy level 1 of the human race, "human" being the root level. Any sub-category beneath gender is applicable to BOTH genders, thus you can have male-white, male-black, female-white, female-black and so on.
I'm sure you don't need me to explain to you that a female gamer, regardless of her religion, race or sexuality, is still a female. So the starting point before we even think about race and beyond, is gender. It has to be. I don't know if it's my programming mind kicking in but it actually hurts my brain to work out how you'd fix lower level exclusions before first fixing the top level one. Probably because it's a logical impossibility.
As for art vs. reality, look you can dress this however you want, but as a gamer, I see games as just that; games. The only limitations we have on what they can do, are the limitation we place there ourselves.
So yes, I do think that, contrary to the argument about realism, it is more than acceptable, nay, of critical importance, to have female avatars in all multiplayer games (that have male avatars). Not because of the principle, not because I'm all "womans rights", but because it is the ONLY way our entire industry can evolve out of the testosterone-pit it's dug itself into.
We have to have women as playable characters, to enable advertisers to include women in promotions, to allow games to appeal to a wider audience, to entice impressionable young women into gaming. How else can our market grow if we can't accept change? How could you realistically ever get women into gaming, if you won't put women into games?
Don't forget I'm not arguing about single player or set stories. They can be story driven with male or female characters and you'll never see me argue any of that should ever change. I loved playing Cole just as much as Lara. I love a good single player campaign just like I love a good RPG with multiple characters.
Also, it would have been nice to see all this play out on my blog page, given as I'd like it to grow and hopefully one day reach many women, Wishful thinking. :)
You must log in to post.
© videogaming247 Ltd.