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1. Dragon246
   Member

   http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-19-why-publishers-refuse-games-such-as-remember-me-because-of-their-female-protagonists

   "We wanted to be able to tease on Nilin's private life, and that means for instance, at one point, we wanted a scene where she was kissing a guy. We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.""

   While I have absolutely no problem with female leads per se, the above mentioned quote raises the relevant issue (for me at least). I do have problem playing as a female character in anything even remotely sexual (eg. a kissing scene) in games. My character in ME is male for this reason. And I don't have any problems with Lara Croft as TR is (or was, haven't played the reboot yet) about exploration, not a personal story. Mirror's Edge is another good example. Add FF13 too.

   All this leads to "Female leads don't sell", since many people (according to publishers) have these kinds of reservations.
   And likewise, it isn't surprising that most games don't bring in a significant female crowd, probably for the same reason.

   I think they are avoiding the issue. Beside a few niggles about female characters (mentioned above), I would totally play a good game with strong female lead.
   Thoughts?

   Posted 3 months ago #

2. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   I think you're asking for trouble...

   Posted 3 months ago #

3. Samoan Spider
   Member

   I would happily play games with a strong female lead. Although the only thing, psychologically is that I had an extremely insecure and jealous ex who would start arguments if a game I was playing had a female in it wearing anything less than what I would describe as winter wear ;) so clearly the issue of how women are presented as both leads and npc's can affect people. But its the presentation of them, not the inclusion of them that I think is the issue.
   As someone commented in a previous discussion, female soldiers wear almost exactly the same clothing/armour as males these days, so why do they need low cut body armour with no sleeves (gears of war I'm looking at you).

   Edit: And yes, I agree you're asking for trouble. I hope you have a flame proof jacket ;)

   Posted 3 months ago #

4. Dragon246
   Member

   Giga and Spider,
   Apart from a particular troll (who I wont name as my keyboard would refuse to type any further after that in disgust :P ) I don't think anyone genuinely flames here. And fewer (saner) people visit forums. This for them.

   Btw, what's your views on this Ghz?

   Posted 3 months ago #

5. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   Characters very rarely ever interest me, since I mostly stick to multiplayer.

   I have a problem with the idea that I should be believing what some group of devs threw together in a series of meetings, because it would 'sell'.

   I find the real people and personalities, that you can play with/against online, much more interesting and involving than some badly written, predictable, characters, be they supposedly 'male' or 'female'.

   I also prefer to be 'myself' in a game, rather than taking on the 'personality' of a fictional character.

   For example, one of my most enjoyed games is Perfect Dark.

   Strangely enough, I've never really seen Joanna Dark as a woman, because I somehow switched roles with 'her' when I played, and became detached from 'her' character.

   So basically, whoever in in the lead role in any given game is kind of a side issue to me, because I have next to no interest in SP/character development/etc.

   I'm more interested in the gameplay.

   Posted 3 months ago #

6. Samoan Spider
   Member

   Ghz, that's an interesting point. In terms of the multiplayer, I think I'm just unlucky and I find the poorly written and predictable players there, however I entirely agree with you about 'switching places' with the protagonist. I often find myself doing that. Transposing myself into the story and environment. I use games, predominantly single player, to detach from reality and put myself in another world and I agree that the notion of what sex the lead role is, becomes largely moot. And I think that's why subconsciously I automatically create characters close to myself in games where I can.
   Hadn't really thought of it that way though.

   Posted 3 months ago #

7. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   Yeah, Samus is another one.

   Posted 3 months ago #

8. silkvg247
   Member

   Oh you think playing a chick and not liking to kiss a guy is tough?

   Try being a lesbian!

   I have constantly contradicting feelings in pretty much every story/character driven game. It's pretty much impossible for me to completely "gel" with any game character, because:

   * I like playing a a male avatar because I get female attention and I like it, but I can't quite associate myself with the whole being male thing.
   * I like playing a female avatar because I can relate more to you know.. actually being a woman.
   * I hate it when a female avatar has relations with a male. It puts me right out of the game, so I get what you mean when you say you're ok to play a chick but don't want her to kiss a bloke. Exact same situation for me.
   * I love it when a female avatar has relations with a female.

   Here's the kicker - point #4 is just so rare to find in any game, anywhere. So it's super nice when it is an option put it that way.

   Conversely option 1 - straight guy gets the girl, is in practically any game with romance in the story. You guys are so spoilt you don't even realise it. You get to live out your fantasies and it is so easy to relate to a straight male avatar cos you're a straight male. :p

   In an ideal world there'd be male/female avatar options in all games, and there'd also be male/female romance options if the game has romance in the story. I know that's a lot to ask for. Alternatively just never have sexuality in games, period. Not sure how I feel about that either..

   Posted 3 months ago #

9. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   "You guys are so spoilt you don't even realise it. You get to live out your fantasies"

   Sorry, but my fantasies do not involve polygons or hentai.

   Games and sexual activity should never, ever mix.

   Posted 3 months ago #

10. zinc
    Member

    ^ Why? Every other medium with an adult audience involves love stories/sex scenes of a kind.

    Posted 3 months ago #

11. G1GAHURTZ
    Member

    Are you telling me that you find a bunch of polygons 'arousing'?

    Posted 3 months ago #

12. zinc
    Member

    ^ Paintings, pictures, polygons... What's the difference? I'm pretty sure before widespread photography guys were *admiring* sketches of young ladies.

    But my point wasn't about graphic content. More that love storys are justifiable content in videogames.

    Posted 3 months ago #

13. silkvg247
    Member

    Yeah I find a good romance interesting/arousing, just like I do in a book? Not seeing the issue to be honest.. to me it's more about context, script and character than graphical representation on-screen.

    Posted 3 months ago #

14. monkeygourmet
    Member

    @Silk

    Is your favourite game 'Saints Row 3'? That is surely the most diverse game out there?

    Posted 3 months ago #

15. Clupula
    Member

    I think games are never going to grow as a medium as long as developers are afraid to take chances on things like this.

    It's why I think games like Heavy Rain really are as revolutionary as people say. They're baby steps in an industry desperately in need of them before it can get to the narrative heights movies are capable of, nevermind books.

    Posted 3 months ago #

16. zinc
    Member

    ^ Thats a very good point. I think a major stumbling block is that a large proportion of gamers themselves don't take the medium seriously.

    The medium will start to change when the majority of gamers want it too.

    Posted 3 months ago #

17. G1GAHURTZ
    Member

    I think I was about 4 or 5 years old when I realised that images such as cartoons and comic strips aren't real, and could never enter the real world.

    To be honest, the fact that I've been asked what the difference is, between a crude picture and a real woman, is mind boggling.

    But hey, if it's hentai, rather than real women that gets you going, that's up to you.

    I haven't commented on storylines or "romance", as at the end of the day, we're talking about games here. If there was a romantic game that existed, with a romantic storyline, then maybe I could, but it doesn't.

    Possibly due to the fact that most people are much more interested in experiencing the physical joys of real human beings, as apposed fantasising over crude representations, as imagined by lonely, middle aged men.

    Posted 3 months ago #

18. silkvg247
    Member

    @G1GA I'm in a healthy 5 year relationship but I can still relate to my video game characters having cute little crushes on each other or whatever. Moreso when it's two women.

    My girlfriend fancies Nariko. Good taste, she is hot!

    I don't find static pictures or animated graphics arousing. I find the story behind them stimulating and if it's a love story it can also be arousing, like I said pretty much like a book can be.

    I don't think anyone mentioned hentai or any form of porn, you were the one to bring it up.. just saying.

    @Monkey SR2 actually.. 3 is good too. :)

    Posted 3 months ago #

19. zinc
    Member

    @GIGA, Um, I wasn't comparing artistic representations of ladies to the real thing :-/

    I was merely stating that videogames are as a suitable medium to represent sexual themes as books, paintings, or movies.

    Posted 3 months ago #

20. Da Man
    Member

    Reality/Ghz + 1

    I'm having a hard time comparing Arnold Shwarzenegger with a textured mesh called 'Marcus Fenix'.. And then with a painting of Hercules.

    A real person (actor), a computer program and a painting. Yes, they're all similar.

    Posted 3 months ago #

21. redwood
    Member

    haha. . so the real question is would "a straight person", playing as a woman in a game kiss another man?" and would this sort of decision making inherently be a factor in the sort of games people buy?

    Posted 3 months ago #

22. Dragon246
    Member

    @Silk,
    I would agree. Games like ME are all-inclusive since they provide meaningful gender choices to players. But not all games can do that, and that presents problems like mentioned in the article.
    Still, saying "female leads don't sell" is wrong. TR and FF13 have proven otherwise.

    Posted 3 months ago #

23. zinc
    Member

    @Da Man, Actually yes. Arnold in Commando, Fenix in Gears & Goltzius's portrait of Hercules are all over the top representations of masculinity and all equally valid from an artistic viewpoint.

    Though top marks for the sarcasm :)

    Posted 3 months ago #

24. SameeR_Fisher
    Member

    Personally I have no problem with a female, I would support a Personal Story non the less, I like it when characters are fleshed out and not pure badazz 2D characters.

    As for a female kissing a male, I don't think that is a problem to me, I mean yeah I feel quite attached to my characters and often put myself in their place, but since this is a female it will be hard for me to do so, but I won't have any trouble with her kissing a man, not at all, but I agree with the developer quote, I don't want to see a male character kissing another male character, I have nothing against gay people, but I am not into that, there are RPGs like Mass Effect where you people have that. --No offence to anyone--

    =========================================================================

    As for female not selling, I think the problem is the game not the character, Tomb Raider is selling cause the game is quite good, maybe even great, granted they took a badass female and made her weak, so it isn't like people bought the game for Lara being a badazz, she used to be of course, but in this new game she was different.

    if Remember Me doesn't sell it won't be due to female character, not at all, it would be due to gameplay issues, dialogues, and bad marketing, but that is another discussion.

    Posted 3 months ago #

25. Da Man
    Member

    You're so off it's not even funny.

    Posted 2 months ago #

26. SameeR_Fisher
    Member

    Really ?!, well whatever, it happens to all of us every once in a while.

    Posted 2 months ago #

27. Da Man
    Member

    Not you.

    Posted 2 months ago #

28. zinc
    Member

    :-P

    Posted 2 months ago #

29. SameeR_Fisher
    Member

    lmao

    Posted 2 months ago #

30. Dragon246
    Member

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-23-mass-effect-3-nearly-didnt-have-tali-as-a-playable-character
    Only 18% player played as female Shep, a telling fact.Can be viewed as both good and bad, but it shows how few females play AAA games. That demographics needs to change.

    Posted 2 months ago #

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