A sourced, real-world example of Sony's ISP limit roadblock.

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A sourced, real-world example of Sony's ISP limit roadblock.

(25 posts)

Started 2 months ago by SplatteredHouse
Latest reply from DSB

SplatteredHouse
Member

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/SimonLudgate/20130222/187181/Canadians_to_Buy_No_More_Than_One_PS4_Game_Every_2_Months.php

(Never mind the sensational nature of the article title - of course, the piece is only talking about digital purchases.) It's all about Canadian ISP limits, and how comments made by Shuhei Yoshida to British press after the PlayStation Meeting...:

"Waiting for downloads[?] That's ridiculous, that's crazy! We want to get out of this madness with PlayStation 4. The games are big, they're 50GB; download isn't instantaneous"..."so when you're at work, you can spend a couple of moments looking at PlayStation Store and choosing a game, and straight away it starts to download at home. It may take a couple of hours but that's okay because you're still at work."

(anyone else think that sounds a lot like a "get 2 jobs" line?)
...have led to concern about the ability of users to actually access these services.
That concern is not unprecedented: Netflix, which is most popular on PlayStation, itself ran into big difficulty with the region as part of its International dry-run in 2011: http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/17/technology/netflix_canada/index.htm

The author of the blog, Simon Ludgate, mentioned that his first thought on hearing the news during the PlayStation Meeting was not of social gaming, but that Sony itself was preparing to offer a "compatible" internet service, to provide the kind of usage that would be needed, such is the discrepancy between what is available, and what is affordable to acquire it, on average.

Posted 2 months ago #
Joe Musashi
Member

That's not a genuine Gamasutra article, it's just a blog post hosted in the site's blogging subsection. As for the "(anyone else think that sounds a lot like a "get 2 jobs" line?)" thing, no as it's entirely different in its context.

JM

Posted 2 months ago #
SplatteredHouse
Member

When did I suggest that it was a Gamasutra article? Neither did I post it as news. It was intended as a talking point.
How is it an entirely different situation, when it is a second example of Sony, in public, trying to rationalize its ideas, while completely overlooking the reality of the environment in which they are intended to be received.

Posted 2 months ago #
Da Man
Member

Sony is really lame, isn't it.

Posted 2 months ago #
Dragon246
Member

@Splatter,
Mind you, nextbox will also have a blu-ray player. And pc games already are really big. So its a much bigger problem, joining it with X or Y company is trivializing the matter.

On a side note, I have a slow, but unlimited connection. I easily go over 200-300GB in some months, so hurray for me!

Posted 2 months ago #
lexph3re
Member

Doesn't really seem like a get 2 jobs approach. It seems more like "we are going to make it as convenient as possible". If they pull it off that you can play a digital game after a specific amount downloads when you come home even if it's not done you just jump right on and play letting it finish in the background still. That is if they are really able to pull this method off.

Posted 2 months ago #
Sadismek
Member

This kind of things make you realize how lucky I can be when it comes to internet connection. I have an unlimited plan and sturdy speeds of about 5 Mbps.

Posted 2 months ago #
DSB
Member

Caps are just another example of monetization gone awry though. The governments in those countries should really do something about that.

It may be profitable for the companies owning those cables, but I think it hurts a lot more companies in general, because they can't deliver their products to their customers without it being a huge hassle.

Once games start clocking in at 50 gigs, you need a serious infrastructure to support it.

Certainly in the US, internet infrastructure sucking is intentional on the side of the companies. They put caps even though they don't need them, they don't expand their networks because it isn't X cents on the dollar, and the sad part is that people in some places are actually having to build their own networks, and the bandwidth they sell is something like half as expensive as the major companies.

It's a giant scam.

Posted 2 months ago #
Clupula
Member

You should be angry that there are even caps on internet usage instead of using this to try to put down Sony. It's fucking ridiculous that you can't download or watch whatever you feel like doing. I know in some areas of other states, they have the caps, and any company that would do that should not be patronized. Period.

Sony are trying to make things as convenient and easy as possible. It's not their fault that some people have retarded internet.

Posted 2 months ago #
SplatteredHouse
Member

Sorry, Clupula: "try to put down Sony"
Who tried to do that...?

It's not putting anybody down to suggest that an idea they came up with may have difficulty in gaining traction due to less than prevailing
conditions. If Sony wish to be selling lots of games in <target market> they may be inconvenienced by...is the whole of it!

@Dragon: "joining it with X or Y company is trivializing the matter." The blog author wrote about X/Y company, which in their situation was directly involved. I was pointing out a situation where Sony's plans may encounter difficulty, using an example to introduce what was said.

While certainly it's a bigger problem than for Sony alone, this is a games forum, and, it's a topical games discussion, due to the extent that Sony's announced plans rely on reaching a large enough, sufficiently connected audience to be successful.

Posted 2 months ago #
DSB
Member

Look at it broadly though. The current delivery services on the PC have to brave exactly the same restrictions.

The games may only be 7-20 gigs, but it's more than enough to put some people over their limits. It doesn't destroy their business.

In terms of the inconvenience, 50 gigs is huge, but again, on the PC a lot of services offer preloads which essentially means 0 downtime.

Finally, digital is going to be an offer next to physical media. I don't see anyone daring to change that overnight.

Posted 2 months ago #
SplatteredHouse
Member

There are sure to be a far greater number of PC owners buying digital games and content, over the % of total PS4 owners doing similarly. Also, on PC, you do tend to have a greater range of prices of item, as well a level of competitiveness in the marketplace (although, Sony may open things up more with this console, in terms of options for creators to sell their games, etc.)

While we will see digital and physical media versions of games, as Sony has stated they intend to offer, retail is at present declining in popularity as a means of acquiring games. I don't see the time of discs turning into a niche offering happening rapidly, however.

Posted 2 months ago #
DSB
Member

But surely, Ludgates example of the Canadian bandwidth thralls still apply. Or do people not have PCs in Canada?

I think pricing on games etc. is a different discussion. It's true that the PC market has some crazy competition, and that's good for all of us, but I don't see how that applies to bandwidth concerns.

I agree though, digital is the future.

Posted 2 months ago #
Clupula
Member

Comparing this to the arrogant "getting a second job" comment is putting down Sony. This is a totally different situation than that comment was. That was just an example, "Well, if we make it, people are going to buy it, no matter how expensive it is, so fuck them." This is, "We're trying to make something convenient for people that will also net us a profit."

Two totally different situations.

Posted 2 months ago #
mathare92
Member

I live in Canada. Regular internet is pretty fast (peaks at about 1.2 Mb/s on Steam), and never had an issue with caps in Ontario or BC. Nor have I heard from any friend who has. I always thought Canada was pretty solid in its net infrastructure. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Posted 2 months ago #
Digital Bamboo
Member

The problem here is the big Canadian media companies, of which 2-3 have a stranglehold on the market. However, I don't think this will pose a problem for future PS4 owners, as it is possible to get faster connections & unlimited downloads from smaller ISP, you just have to pay more for it, (around $60).

Of course, most of those smaller ISP have to buy bandwidth from the big bastards, but not all. Actually, the big ISP offer fast/unlimited internet too, but you have to pay a shitload for it.

Anyone who intends to buy a PS4 (and understands what they're getting into) will likely have an internet connection that can support it. It's just the MAJORITY use these capped shithead companies, because they probably already get cable and phone service from them so they figure "why not" get internet with them too, as part of a package "deal".

Those who know better, shop around, and do some research, can find the service that suits their needs for a better price; so I don't think Sony has anything to worry about. If anything, I hope the needs of next-gen systems chip away at the big Canadian ISPs business, as more and more people seek out better internet options, perhaps forcing them to adapt their service, policies & prices, in order to retain customers (but I won't hold my breath).

Posted 2 months ago #
Digital Bamboo
Member

@mathare92 You must be lucky, because those speeds are unbelievebly fast for "regular" internet in Canada. How much do you pay a month, and with what ISP in Ontario?

I've run into trouble with caps in the past, been charged for going over the limit,had my internet disconnected for going over a cap, and even been threatened that they 'might have one of their techs look into what it was I was downloading if I went over again'

And, Canada is most certainly not 'pretty solid in its net infrastructure' It's a fucking mess! Slow, outdated, and controlled by a handful of megacorporations with way too much power. Korean internet speed/reliability & service makes Canada's look like a bad joke by comparison.

Posted 2 months ago #
mathare92
Member

I have a Shaw package in BC. It's part of the rent; haven't asked the landlord exactly what package it is, but I'm sure it's one of the lower end ones. I think the cheapest Shaw package offers 10 Mbps which would align with the download speeds I get. Again, I'm not quite sure. Haven't received a complaint from him about over exceeding the cap yet.

It seems like you're more experienced with the ISP's here, but I think you're over-exaggerating the crapiness of the internet. I've lived in countries where the internet is truly fucking terrible - unless you want to pay an arm and a leg. Korea sounds like the model other developed places should aspire to, but it's an exception for now, not the rule.

P.S. Any examples of these smaller ISP's? I'm part of the majority that haven't looked further than the big three or four.

Posted 2 months ago #
Digital Bamboo
Member

I'm not sure about Shaw in BC, but according to their website the lowest/$50 package allows for 125GB a month, which is 5-8X more than the lowest caps enforced by the big ISP's in Ontario.

I'm not saying Canada has the worst internet in the world, but for a developed country, it's pretty bad (at the entry level, especially in Ontario). Though, yes, it's a bit unfair to compare to Korea, where I'm currently paying $15/mo, have seen DL speeds up to 25Mb/s and there are no caps. I mean literally caps don't exist, EVERY package is unlimited. (Then again, there's no internet censorship in Canada.)

Smaller ISP's? Sure, there are tons: http://www.canadianisp.ca/cgi-bin/top30for30.cgi

I used Youmano last I lived there, (based in Quebec) though I can't recommend them: they add an extra fee onto your monthly payment based on 'how far you are from one of their towers', and the wireless router they provided died. Twice. Still better than the big 3 tho!

Posted 2 months ago #
mathare92
Member

$15/mo for 25Mb/s? And no caps? What sorcery is this? Okay, now I do feel ripped off.

Posted 2 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

It's not clear what the point of the original post is. I'd say it's more that Canadian ISPs are currently limiting what consumers can get out of a variety of online services. Gaming on PCs, consoles streaming video etc.

More to the point what do you expect these gaming companies to do about it? They are continuing to offer alternatives to people who don't have net connection which would support these features, retail on disc delivery for example. Should they limit services they offer people in other countries because of places like Canada? Or force developers to keep game downloads to smaller limits? Of course not. They should try and offer the best experience they can to everyone.

Posted 2 months ago #
SplatteredHouse
Member

"It's not clear what the point of the original post is"

The point is that I saw whilst reading elsewhere an opinion that surprised me. A different point of view than the one a lot of people were focusing on. Although there was hearsay to the effect, I had yet to see specific examples from which there was a potential for Sony's network plans to realistically be stymied, due to that.

@13 wrote: "It's true that the PC market has some crazy competition, and that's good for all of us, but I don't see how that applies to bandwidth concerns."

Your previous point was that despite the restrictions for internet usage in general, the business of selling games is not destroyed...But on PC you have many contributing factors that allow that, which you don't as often see brought in to play on consoles, such that the PC platform appeals to a broader range of people to consume digital content from, than do consoles. With a reduced pool of customers on consoles, limiting effects are bound to be all the more keenly felt by platform holders.

I wasn't trying to create an argument.
More the sort of thing that Digital Bamboo, Mathare and DSB have been posting: Discussing the situation, maybe weighing up if it is one that should concern Sony...(as it clearly did Netflix - referenced as another big company that the infrastructure did cause difficulty for)
Is the problem in Canada equivalent to other parts of the world? - that kind of thing.

Posted 2 months ago #
Digital Bamboo
Member

You're absolutey right DrDamn. This problem rests entirely with Canadian ISPs. I don't think anyone expects Sony to limit their services because of it, but it would be nice if they joined with their partners like Netflix and started making some noise to try to influence change, as their businesses could only benefit from it. However, I'm not sure the Canadian market is big enough--or those internet-based companies are influential enough--to justify going against the media giants.

Anyway, I really don't think it's as big a deal as this article made it out to be. If people buy a PS4, and they aren't willing to pay more for the internet connection to support it, they can always buy the physical disc.

@mathare92 Yeah, I actually don't know what the upper limit of my DL speed is, as whatever I'm DLing usually finishes long before it reaches 25Mb/s. Apparently, newer apartments in Seoul can get 100Mb/s.

Posted 2 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

@SplatteredHouse
The big difference between Sony and Netflix in this case is that Sony provide a perfectly viable alternative to digital only. They recognise this is a issue in some parts of the world and include another way to play the games. Again that shouldn't stop them or MS being forward looking and trying to use the network which is available in most developed countries.

As to who should address this issue in somewhere like Canada? The government should. This sort of situation would have wider reaching implications other than recreation. It must have quite an impact on small business too. If the government don't address it then try to vote one in who will.

Posted 2 months ago #
DSB
Member

@Splatteredhouse

I'm not sure that holds up though. Most sales still happen within the first three months - I don't believe that's any different on the PC - and that often means full price.

When someone like Green Man Gaming sells Bioshock Infinite for 35 euro, they're actually sacrificing their own profits in order to pull people over to their site. You best believe that Take Two isn't giving it away, so that's the distributor assuming the loss.

That's seriously fierce competition, but they obviously feel it's worth it for the activity it earns them everywhere else.

I would be surprised if Sony don't introduce a similar model. They will never be selling games at 0% margins, because they'll never have to, but I think they'll try to leverage their back catalogue (or less expensive catalogue) to provide value on all tiers, just like the PC services.

I think the fact that they're paying attention to indies is part of that, actually.

Posted 2 months ago #

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