Not sure if anyone has spotted, read or posted about this but ArsTechnica have an interesting write up on the hardware that has gone into the PS4. If anyone is interested -> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/inside-the-playstation-4-a-balanced-approach-to-building-a-game-console/
PS4 Hardware write up(21 posts)
GPU and processor are freakin weak for a next gen console even by today's standards and i'm not talking about comparing AMD stuff to Nvidia GPU or IBM/Intel processors which are superior in every way in every generation since the introduction of Nehalem and Westmere 45 NM microarchitecture's.
+ they used Dual X86 Decode which makes PS4 a PC. Prepare for some Piracy Sony, because this shit is going to be wide-open much more then PS3.
In comparison, Xbox 360 was more of a PC and when it was released it was hacked in one week.
"The choice to go with an AMD CPU makes sense for a few reasons—the company's chips don't have the best x86 performance, but they're generally considered to be "good enough" for most tasks, and it's also likely that Sony could extract a better price out of the small and troubled AMD relative to the still-dominant Intel."
Sony does not have money at all. It's their first console with underwhelming processor and ok GPU.
Ok, so in response to the points you make;
Piracy: a hypervisor will sort that out and both MS and Sony will have learnt some lessons from past experience on this front. Nothing lasts forever, but I imagine they'll buy themselves more time this generation.
Superiority: AMD have got very good at making chips despite the negative press they always receive and this Jaguar is a far cheaper option than its nearest Intel counterpart and secondly is a unified architecture so any performance increase gained by an Intel die would be lost in having to send things out to an ATI or nVidia gpu. And also you'd lose the benefits of the 8gb gddr5.
Cost: That quote is out of context so take into account the rest "This isn't automatically a bad thing—Bobcat is already much faster than Intel's analogous Atom processors and Jaguar will definitely widen that gap, and the Bobcat and Jaguar parts that make it into netbooks and tablets more likely to be dual-core chips rather than the octo-core configuration in the PS4."
Edit- With this as well, don't forget power consumption is a huge problem. I have a Zambezi Bulldozer system with a 7850 and my power draw must be 400-500 watts which is 3-4 times what this system will achieve. Not to mention the heat and sound mine has. All points to a low power GPCPU being the only option.
Piracy: "a hypervisor will sort that out and both MS and Sony will have learnt some lessons from past experience on this front. Nothing lasts forever, but I imagine they'll buy themselves more time this generation."
That we will see. X86 architecture is not an issue for a small team of dedicated hackers.
Even PS3 was broken by the end of the day by one person that was dedicated to it.
"AMD have got very good at making chips despite the negative press "
their processors are weak. always were weak since the introduction of Intel's Nehalem and Westmere 45 NM microarchitecture's. There is nothing to argue, in fact even their coolers in the box are low quality.
They are cheap and almost no one buys them for gaming for example.
"Bobcat is already much faster than Intel's analogous Atom processors"
True, but we are already at the age of Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge microarchitecture's which are superior in every way there is.
But you wouldn't want a sandy/ivybridge CPU in a console, purely based on power consumption, interface requirements and the need for an entirely seperate GPU. Not to mention its inability to use the GDDR5. You are looking for a PC in a box, and you can build those with an Intel all day long, but they are expensive. What they've done here is right. A powerful Radeon and a decent octocore AMD processor is perfect. Intel is not a good fit here and you should know that.
Steam HWS says that 26.88% are on AMD, so Intel have the majority, but that is a far cry from your baseless 'They are cheap and almost no one buys them for gaming' comment. I play every game on my AMD/ATI based pc without a care in the world.
Lastly, why can't some of you people ever see the positives in things. This IS a good system whichever way you cut it. It will be enormously powerful in relation to its cost and is a good thing for PC gamers like us because it'll ensure good performance for ports.
About piracy, you are wrong erth. Marijuana smoking Geohot did not do everything himself. It was only after failoverflow released the Proof of Concept.
And console piracy is not a very big issue now. More than 80% of ps3s are connected with net, and from what it seems, ps4 will have more internet requiring features, making hacking not a very attractive prospect for general users.
And about hardware, it really matters less than pricing. A 400$ console pricing is much, much more important than throwing a 1000$ pc compoents in it.
"Marijuana smoking Geohot did not do everything himself."
You don't know the scene. He did it all by himself. You can read his blog. He didn't used a failoverflow concept at all.
There are even files that you could use for it.
There was a Jailbreak that was done by few guys and etc.
Anyway, the truth is, Ps3 was hacked in 2 weeks being at the same time with a custom hardware. FACT.
X86 = the easiest way to hack.
Can't wait for it to be cracked in 1-2 weeks after the release by dedicated team.
"And console piracy is not a very big issue now."
O'rly? Do you want me to show Gears Of War: Judgment on Piratebay and how much people downloaded it?
how about PS3 games?
Just say one word and i will show you a pirate scene right now.
"A 400$ console pricing is much, much more important than throwing a 1000$ pc compoents in it."
obviously a price is more important. But at the same time Apple makes a next gen hardware on every device and make a decent price for it and everyone buys it.
Sony didn't spend a shit and will sell everyone a cheap PC.
But its not just the hardware. Its the software. The network infrastructure. The exclusive content deals. The hardware is also subsidised for the 1st couple of years until manufacturing costs come down. You're losing sight of an awful lot Erth.
Oh, and did Mac's suddenly become PCs when they starting building on an x86-64 platform? Sure they can run Windows but that doesn't make them a PC.
Also Apple products have something that appeals to peoples magpie tendencies and Sony just can't do that. Nor can MS so charging £1000 for a console will kill them. Literally. As in take the company under. Like the PS3 very nearly did because they made them pricey.
You said in another post that the architecture is similar to your own pc. But then you call this cheap shit. Where are you going with this?
Look at the steam based micro pc that just got detailed the other week. £1000 to play steam games. Its not the steam box I grant you, but still, if you want to spend silly money to avoid Sony and MS products, that option is there. But to call this hardware 'shit' is just being disingenuous.
You say about GoW being pirated. I just went on Torrentz and looked at a couple of trackers and there is maybe 2000 downloads. Thats out of 76million xbox owners. Your point is invalid.
If MS was really concerned about piracy, they would have much done than just telling "Eh, we will ban you".
Console piracy is really a non-important part now.
About ps4 piracy, we will see, wont we?
I really think that software based hack (easier for general consumers than mod-chips, depend upon software (the OS). I wont be surprised if 720 gets hacked before ps4 (win 8 based os), but it probably wont matter.
Point is, this will be way better than any similarly priced gaming pc, and that matters.
Pricing is everything. They do a 400 (or less than 720)and most people wont care about specs.
From Ars Technica,
"What does all this mean? Well, the PS4's SoC should be capable of some really impressive visuals at 1080p, even on 3D TVs, with more impressive results than the Radeon HD 7850 itself, since game developers working with consoles can always optimize their engines and games to squeeze more performance out of console hardware (a nice side effect of having a single, stable platform to target)."
"Oh, and did Mac's suddenly become PCs when they starting building on an x86-64 platform? Sure they can run Windows but that doesn't make them a PC."
when I say it is a PC, it's a sarcasm. That's called generalization. x86 first of all is architecture.
@Dragon, "If MS was really concerned about piracy, they would have much done than just telling "Eh, we will ban you".
Console piracy is really a non-important part now."
What they can do with the piracy? What someone can do with a piracy except for ban? Tell me please. No one can stop piracy or do something with it.
Sony already tried to sue people. Nothing worked in the end. That's not enough? LOL
Oww, maybe Sony or MS should hire some soldiers and start a war with China or some US states or Russia to kill pirates? LOL LOL LOL
Console piracy is really big on all three platforms. It's not bigger then the PC scene, but it's not small. Fact.
Indeed, it's just 7850 is a fucking crappy videocard. All The Southern Islands GPU's are inferior to almost all GPU from a previous generation at Nvidia.
'Indeed, it's just 7850 is a fucking crappy videocard. All The Southern Islands GPU's are inferior to almost all GPU from a previous generation at Nvidia.'
This is wrong, I have 1 and I have no problems with its performance. I am on a budget and for the money I spent, I couldn't have done better. Southern Island GPUs are not inferior to Nvidia products. This isn't intel/amd where theres a huge performance gap, they all leap frog eachother with every iteration and the only really big advantage nvidia has is physx.
'Console piracy is really big on all three platforms. It's not bigger then the PC scene, but it's not small. Fact.'
Calling it fact doesn't make it so. But in essence, if anyone calls it a really big problem, they are being fed a line by the powers that be. Its no more a really big problem than used sales. Which oddly hasn't killed the industry.
Oh, it helped, big time. Ps3 piracy is virtually nothing. Its not possible by an average joe, unless he watches 15 youtube videos (correct ones) and uses solder and such things properly. Unlike pc obviously, where its rampant. Fact.
Another fact, ps4 will be more powerful than any pc config sub 500-600$ at launch. Fact. Consoles always provide cheaper hardware than pc counterparts.
NO similarly priced pc is as powerful as ps3/360 (around 200$). Another fact.
@Dragon246, "Oh, it helped, big time. Ps3 piracy is virtually nothing. Its not possible by an average joe,"
oh yeah Dragon. For your info, PS3 hack is the easiest one. You only need to buy a dongle (for 3$) and connect it to your PS3. That's it. It's hacked. Then,
you just download a software from a pirate site and play.
While on the Xbox 360 you need to have a custom firmware from hackers for example which is a trouble for some people.
"Another fact, ps4 will be more powerful than any pc config sub 500-600$ at launch."
While this is true, Ps4 at this time won't have decent games that will show it's capabilities and it won't have a lot of games in general. Fact.
So, by the end of a day if someone is going to build PC after 1 year for 500$ or 600$ it's going to be much better.
@Samoan Spider, "This is wrong, I have 1 and I have no problems with its performance. I am on a budget and for the money I spent, I couldn't have done better. Southern Island GPUs are not inferior to Nvidia products. "
First of all, AMD/Radeon products are not interesting for gamers. they don't have decent 3D support or PhysX or general support for games. You can look at Nvidia's stie for example how much games have exclusive support from Nvidia.
Second, http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7870-review-benchmark,3148-6.html End of story.
In most cases it's inferior to any Nvidia product. I'm not saying that it is a bad card, i'm saying that it is inferior to Nvidia products in almost every way.
Have a look at the hardware list. Apart from the 2 outliers at the top, your point is wrong but don't let facts get in the way of a good rhetoric. Better 3d support and Physx is agreeable. But 3d is largely as irrelevant to PCs as 4k is to consoles for a while yet. Physx is excellent in games that support it but it is something that isn't a dealbreaker based on software support with ATI.
But you're arguing with the wrong person. We're both PC players and supporters but I have a proven balanced viewpoint on almost anything, which can't be said for you. So I suggest we leave it there.
The proof is in the pudding as they say and as we've discussed before I built my PC for the same value as this PS4 including bluray support and oddly Im probably on a pretty even footing spec wise. 1080p60 is achievable on anything (with adjustments on some extreme games).
I have been involved in the ATI/Nvidia debate for a very long time now. I remember the rise and fall of 3dfx (and I still fondly remember my voodoo 2 sli) so please don't think me a fool on this topic.
The PS4 is a well rounded bit of hardware so lets just see what happens!
A dongle which provides a piss poor range of games to play. Right...
That dongle sucks and is completely useless now. You NEED lower version ps3 software, since dongles CANNOT DOWNGRADE it.
JTAG is much more prevalent.
"So, by the end of a day if someone is going to build PC after 1 year for 500$ or 600$ it's going to be much better."
And by then ps4 will be cheaper. And KZ already looks "next-gen". Every console player knows that. No sub 600$ pc is capable of that.
^ Every level headed person knows that, not just console players. It takes an especially blinkered or blind fool to disagree.
@Dragon246, "A dongle which provides a piss poor range of games to play. Right..."
Every game that is released today can be playable with a dongle. Stop saying bullshit. There are a lot of things that won't stop hackers playing with a system. There are a lot of dongles too which have pre-installed software that avoids a lot of stuff.
"And KZ already looks "next-gen". Every console player knows that."
Only Sony fanboys know it because Killzone: shadow Fall looks worse then a lot of multiplatform titles on the PC. No one is impressed except for Sony fanboys.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/87/3c8ae1fae7de0d69a483ffb.png Oh look, Killzone:Shadow Fall with low resolution textures from 2005, crappy shadows and PS3-level foliage. *slow clap*
"But 3d is largely as irrelevant to PCs as 4k is to consoles for a while yet. "
I never said something about 4K first of all.
"Physx is excellent in games that support it but it is something that isn't a dealbreaker based on software support with ATI."
There is none support form AMD cards. But do you want a list of supported Nvidia cards in general that has exclusive support?
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-games.html - AMD will never feature the support of the games like Nvidia's exclusivity. Fact.
this link has nothing to do with games
Yeap. Have you seen other pages? I actually liked that benchmark. They just forgot to include GTX 690 in it that destroys every videocard on the market.
Poor show for AMD. Read the conclusion about it's noisy model.
AMD does not have anything interesting for gamer except for a price. Every other technology like PhysX, Nvidia 3D Vision are only on Nvidia videocards. I will never buy their top videocards until they will have something interesting in production in which they don't.
^"Every game that is released today can be playable with a dongle."
Just no. Check on google.
And I am bored with insulting. You really want to continue?
"Only Sony fanboys know it because Killzone: shadow Fall looks worse then a lot of multiplatform titles on the PC. "
If Sony fanboys are most of the jounos that attended the meet then yeah. And its better than any sub 600 pc, the most important thing. Fact.
But the 690 is a brand new card, and ATI haven't brought their's to the table yet. Its a tick tick scenario and ATI will be next. Its happened for years. I have enjoyed Physx support on Batman:AC and Borderlands 2 to name 2. It works fine but you must've missed that in your rush to prove me wrong.
Futuremark has nothing to do with games, you're right, but as a guide to what something is capable of, its a neutral ground created from thousands and thousands of benchmarks carried out the world over. So its a decent guide.
I know you didn't mention it, but 4k was merely a comparison point as in, its irrelevant but people keep talking about it. 3D is not a nice function on a PC or console and isn't ready for mass consumption yet. Too blurry and very quickly causing headaches. I wouldn't see that as a win, but I suppose at least they're trying. HD3D isn't up there yet so I'll concede that.
Your preference is your own, but please don't assume that because you don't 'like' something, it isn't capable. And noisy has always been the bane of any nvidia user. Thats why I switched to ATI. And when I buy the next card in a couple of years time, I'll do my research and buy whatever suits my needs no matter who the manufacturer is.
But again, your view is skewed as always and you just wont accept that there's nothing wrong with the specs vs potential price of this PS4 which is the only reason I started this thread.
@erth - I'd have to disagree with you on AMD/ATI being inferior in every way. I have been a big fan of Nvidia's cards since I switched to them from 3DFX but my new PC has a 7870 and its a pretty decent card. It does have one thing better than the equivalent Nvidia card, heat and energy consumption. The Ati's would be better for consoles simply because less heat.
Also, don't forget that the 360 had a r500/r600 hybrid GPU that had unified memory before Nvidia did. Don't get me wrong, if I would go out and buy a new card, it would be a Nvidia card most likely, but the Ati cards arent bad at all. The Physx is nice, but using batman Arkham Asylum, my I7 3820 does the job just as well as when using my GTX fermi card. The raw speed of the fermi card is better but its a much hotter card and uses more energy.
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