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1. No_PUDding
   Member

   I can't decide really if Rab should have named names. At once it's right, because lots of (not just games) journalists need to be reminded that they have to keep that critical distance.

   But at the same time singling out two very low profile journalists just seems a little overzealous. And as I said before, offensive.

   I am sure Lauren and Dave will be very mindful of their integrity from this day forward, so for that they can be grateful. I just hope he hasn't damaged their careers in the process.

   Posted 6 months ago #

2. absolutezero
   Member

   I think Dave came out of this looking like a level headed, passionate games writer that made a mistake. Hell if I could tell John Walker to shut the fuck up, I would. Lauren Wainwright on the other hand has come out of this looking like an utter cunt.

   To be honest im 100% certain the only reason Rab pulled out Dave is because he replied to Walker's bullshit polemic bollocks and nothing more.

   We know Dave, we all talk with him in the comments section and he loves discussion and feeback, if anything happens to that relationship because of this, then and only then will I be a bit pissed. Otherwise its just games journalism rolling around in its own shit even more.

   That and fuck Twitter nothing ever positive has emerged from it.

   Posted 6 months ago #

3. El_MUERkO
   Member

   If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage. I don't think Dave's will be. Wainwright works for The Sun, so she'll probably get a promotion.

   As for Rab. He quit because EG edited his article, he wasn't sacked. EG should have backed their man. But done is done.

   All of the 'journalists' who tweeted for a playstation will likely face some internet stick now and in the future. Hopefully they'll think of it as a life lesson and move on.

   Posted 6 months ago #

4. No_PUDding
   Member

   I don't know. Was it Rab's responsibility to make an example out of those specific incidents? Why should he?

   I can't decide if it's as clear cut as 'If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage.'

   There are plenty worse journalistic practices going than that, aren't there? That he didn't get the opportunity to call out.

   Either way I think this furor is really healthy and positive. It does pave the way forward, making people aware of it from both sides. Audience and journalist alike.

   Posted 6 months ago #

5. OrbitMonkey
   Member

   ROFL, oh no a writer i like won a PS3 after tweeting a hashtag! I can't trust his reveiws no more!

   How can I make unbiased purchases of videogames if my fave writer wins a gift off a corporation!

   Oh thank you nonbitter martyr journo, totally not looking to cause a rumpus for bringing it to my short lived heavily biased attention!

   Who do you write for btw? No ads of corporations or devs is their? I hate conflicts of interest...

   Posted 6 months ago #

6. Mike
   Key Master

   oh dear.

   Posted 6 months ago #

7. Mike
   Key Master

   The point you're all missing is, is that the mistake was made in the first place. Yeah, Dave Cook's human, yeah, we could have all made it, yeah, THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT.

   The whole system is skewed. All of it. EG should be big enough now to get its revenue from Cologne, Clothes and magazines? What's it afraid of? Not being invited to a 5-star resort in California with a few of its exclusives pals to be wined and dined before being shown a super-mega exclusive? Yeah, probably. That's the whole problem.

   99% of these people aren't journalists. They're guns for hire, at a very, very low price. And you know what happens if you pay peanuts...

   Posted 6 months ago #

8. tenthousandgothsonacid
   Member

   .
   Oddly, they've now edited the original article and now it names no names at all. Including Mr Cook's.

   Posted 6 months ago #

9. BraveArse
   Member

   I'll speak no more of it after this, I promise. But I have to say this retweet of Florence's from yesterday is what made me more angry than anything else. It's either hugely naive, given his article, or massively hypocritical.

   https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pCa4xiKEmmU/UIqKAMD_3sI/AAAAAAAAAgk/OA7rHEd6QzM/s576/Screenshot_2012-10-25-13-04-22-1.png

   Hopefully you'll be able to follow the link.

   Posted 6 months ago #

10. SplatteredHouse
    Member

    It sounds as if that article's been sanitized out of purpose.

    "I can't decide if it's as clear cut as 'If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage.'"

    In Wainwright's case, that's 100% accurate, though. She's only caused herself increasingly more damage (unlike Dave) since the incident that she began.

    I HOPE we will have some reflection on the over-arching point of Rab's article. Though understandable for why, it is a pity that discussion probably won't take place in these particular halls. Though, I wish I knew how to view the cat-got-tongue reaction of most every other major site (apart from Penny Arcade) of which has been heard not one peep of ANY part of this, even the serial article. How isolated Is this news?

    Posted 6 months ago #

11. tenthousandgothsonacid
    Member

    .
    @BraveArse I don't see the problem, he's completely obsessed by Dark Souls. It's not as if he gained from retweeting that.

    His twitter account's gone now too :(

    Posted 6 months ago #

12. DSB
    Member

    Mike said it.

    It's always nasty when you call someone out by name, and I don't think it's neccesary for the article, but I do think games journalism could do with a lot more media criticism. Media criticism in games journalism strikes me as something that only happens on Twitter and Skype, away from most of the prying eyes, and without risking too much in the way of meaningful debate.

    Chums will be chums. The guy makes a pretty good argument, names or no.

    Posted 6 months ago #

13. BraveArse
    Member

    @tenthousand the problem for me, is that he was pointing out the naivety of someone who he said he was sure just liked a game, and that part of the problem was how that /looked/ to the wider world. The trouble with that was that he also couched it in the terms of him "stalking the worst games journos".

    I realise he's a fan ofq DS, I am too, I imported the Asian Demon's Souls on launch. But he can't surely have seen himself as beyond criticism once he erected such a huge glass house can he? I honestly don't believe he was being paid to do it. But the fact that he did do it after writing that article is either naive, or arrogant. Both of those make it hypocrisy in my eyes.

    Posted 6 months ago #

14. LOLshock94
    Member

    Can someone please un ban me?

    Posted 6 months ago #

15. DSB
    Member

    http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/libel-alleged-legal-threats-and-conflicts-of-interest-the-twisted-story-of-

    This just stinks to high heaven.

    Let's see how many others dare to touch this with a ten foot pole. I'm guessing it won't be many.

    Posted 6 months ago #

16. ManuOtaku
    Member

    Iam here to say that Daves does a great Job Here, i like his style, articles and the way he talks to us the commenters, like he was one of us, is a very humble person, with a nice style for covering articles.

    Now having said that, i dont know about this story or news in the slightest, becuase i cannot access any of this news related at work, for those filters at work, and probably i wont do, becuase in my free time in my house i play and take care of my family, therefore chances are i will never be inform of this news, and that i will not comment on this issue, also i like to sated that i know whatever is this or however is related to Dave, i think it wouldnt change my image of him as a person and writer.

    Posted 6 months ago #

17. manamana
    Member

    I just want to say three things:

    LOLshock94 - best comment ever.

    Dave Cook is cool and does a really great job.

    Never listen to whiners.

    Posted 6 months ago #

18. Talkar
    Member

    Just read the OP (yeah i know, late to the party).
    And i have to say that the bunch over at Eurogamer are idiots.
    Dave, you write some pretty damn good articles. Hell, you even gave away the PS3!

    Posted 6 months ago #

19. tenthousandgothsonacid
    Member

    .
    RoFlo writes :

    http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/

    Posted 6 months ago #

20. SplatteredHouse
    Member

    Of Tom Bramwell, site editor for Eurogamer, he says: "His attempts to defend my position were, if anything, heroic."

    Jim Sterling also wrote a piece around attitudes, approaches and lessons, and reaction to this over on Gamefront: http://www.gamefront.com/critics-in-the-headlights/

    Posted 6 months ago #

21. manamana
    Member

    ^ very good piece, nail on the head, thanks for the link.

    Posted 6 months ago #

22. Dave Cook
    Member

    Just an update guys: me and Rab have kissed and made up.

    (We didn't kiss)

    We've known each other for a few years. We had a heartfelt chat on the matter. There is no animosity or bad feeling between us, and never was at any point in all of this.

    Normal business can now resume.

    For great justice!

    Posted 6 months ago #

23. Gheritt White
    Member

    A heartfelt hat? Is that more like a trilby or a beanie?

    EDIT: DAMMIT! You beat me to it! You're good Dave, I'll give you that, but I'll get you next time... just you wait.

    Posted 6 months ago #

24. mathare92
    Member

    Damn libel threats.

    Now we won't have any more Lost Humanities, Rab's out of a job, and the actual point he was trying to make in his article is lost in all this hubbub of name censoring. For shame.

    Posted 6 months ago #

25. tenthousandgothsonacid
    Member

    .
    I think the most shocking revelation to come out of all of this is that Dave Cook is Scottish. I'm not sure I can ever trust him ever again ;)

    Posted 6 months ago #

26. No_PUDding
    Member

    @Mike, I don't think anyone is missing the point. If you want to talk about the issues Rab's column were referencing and tie it in with the ensuing legal mess. Then it's another fine example of the system being fucked. Wahey.

    Whether you'd like to discredit it or not, and in the presence of one of the involved parties, there were some of us who wanted to talk about the human and moral aspects of the situation.

    Posted 6 months ago #

27. DSB
    Member

    What I don't get is why he's curling up into a ball now. Why quit when you don't have to?

    That seems more like panic than anything else, and that's also not what a journalist should do. If you publish something, you make sure you can back it, and then you let the piece speak for itself.

    Withholding information in a story that's obviously relevant, ditto. What was Tom Bramwell exposed to? Why hint at it, when you could just tell the truth? Isn't that what journalists are supposed to do?

    I don't know a lot about UK legislation, but I'm guessing you guys still have freedom of the press, and as such, a story reporting the facts is not subject to litigation.

    His message should've been "I back the story, facts check out. Unleash the kraken."

    It's weak that Kuchera and Campbell are doing a better job sticking up for him than Bramwell, no matter his motivation.

    Posted 6 months ago #

28. Talkar
    Member

    @DSB
    I think you're on the wrong site if you think journalists should back up what they've written. I've been banned from a couple of journalists articles here because i was questioning what they were writing about. That isn't really standing up for, or backing what you've written :P

    Posted 6 months ago #

29. DSB
    Member

    Well, like the original article, singling people out just makes it look like a personal beef. The real point of the article is that it's a widespread perception that games journalists aren't to be trusted, and that it's at least in part because they don't care about building their integrity.

    The problem isn't Dave Cook or VG247 or anyone else, it's more of a Stuart Campbell'esque dystopia in which neither writers nor readers take themselves seriously, so the journalism reflects it.

    Posted 6 months ago #

30. OrbitMonkey
    Member

    ^ I disagree. I think some readers take the subject far too seriously tbh. Theirs passion for your hobby, then theirs delusion that your hobby is on par with real world politics.

    I'm pretty sure EA are not actually a military junta, hoping to overthrow the Dictator for life Kotick, by buying good BF3 reviews off sleazy journo's.

    I see videogames journalism on par with sports journalism. An like sports journalism their is going to obviously be impartiality... Because this is a hobby, a pastime. You know who's gonna talk your talk dependent on what games you like etc.

    Posted 6 months ago #

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