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1. silkvg247
   Member

   Hi All,

   Most of you probably know me from my random musings on various threads.

   Regarding any stories about sexism, I've usually been somewhere in the middle pointing out it does exist, but not being all pro feminine about it either.

   After the last view weeks I would like to change my stance. I now believe sexism not only exists, but is rampant and frankly disgusting.

   This came about because of my steam greenlight submission:

   http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92982170

   I have had constant drama in the comments, as you'll see if you page back. best to start from the beginning if you can be bothered.

   In a nutshell I'm not allowed to be female, I have to default to being a 12 year old boy, because that's how I "sound" in the video.

   I would say that (worryingly) the majority of males posting have made this assumption, and commented accordingly.

   You might think it's no big deal to be accused of being a 12 year old boy, but I find it offensive, both because it demeans my experience, and more importantly, because it suggests my gender is so far out of place in this industry that these people don't even consider that the voice in the video is female. I find the latter point to be quite horrifying.

   After having a number of people assuming I was a young male, I decided to point out that I was in fact a female programmer. Oh boy, big mistake! I then had people accusing me of using the fact I was female to try and score points.

   So I took out any reference of gender and instead put age, thinking I'm sure people will now realise a high pitched voice can't be a young boy if I'm 34. No. Now I'm getting people accusing me about *lying about my age*, once again because the notion there might be a female making games just doesn't enter their heads! This way of thinking is an absolute disgrace.

   So lets sum up, here's what I can't do:

   * Make a video using my own voice as it leads to me being a 12 year old boy.
   * Specify I'm female as it means I am somehow trying to attract attention due to gender.

   So I have to hide who I am to have a place in the games industry, or at least, I have to do that if I am to avoid any hassle.

   If I sounded like a 34 year old male in the video, then none of those "haha you're a kid" type comments would have appeared. Nobody would have questioned my age at all. Instead they would have questioned such a young game from an adult, which is fine, because it's quite simple to educate those people (i.e. who do they think makes games for kids.. kids?)

   Thing is I don't take offense that the game has had generally negative critique, especially the graphics which I can always improve. What I care about is that a lot of the comments are being made due to incorrect assumption on who I am, and it's completely taking away where I want the focus to be i.e. the game itself.

   Also, for a comedy bonus look at the latest posts, about some dude who reckoned the graphics looked like they had genitalia, but when properly challenged with a high res shot, then pretended he'd never mentioned it.

   Posted 7 months ago #

2. ManuOtaku
   Member

   Sorry to hear that, there are a few good comments that are really constructive, but they are very few, sad seeing you were treated this way, I hope people will support it, and that it will do well, i can only wish you success.

   Posted 7 months ago #

3. silkvg247
   Member

   Just to stop people having to dig them out, here's a selection. Some aren't offensive but make the male assumption:

   "Sorry, but not on Steam, this is kinda lame and nowhere near the level needed. But you're obviously young and you've got motivation so keep making games. I'm sure you'll get there eventually. On a lighter note, the game looks as polished as it could be for something of this level."

   "My eyes are bleeding. But anyway upvoted because the kid sounds like he is potentially able to do some good software. (If you add a secret hack&slay-gore-mode i would buy it. ;D"

   "The kid cracks me up. For reasons I can not explain, I will vote it up."

   "Ohhhh youre a woman thats why this game looks like it's made for the mentally handicapped"

   "No offense, but the description for your game isn't the best place for going "Eff you guys, I'm not a kid! Also LOOK AT ME I AM A GIRL!!""

   "guys hes problably trying to make a game for younger kids.ids dont focus on graphics or storyline the simpily play the game and if the like it they like it"

   "I'm 34"...

   "You are not 34."

   Posted 7 months ago #

4. OlderGamer
   Moderator

   Par for the course sadly.

   But it seems to me that this is as much as a general public if not more then a game idustry focused issue. However the portion of the general public that are dedicated enough to follow something like Steams Greenlight or a site like this are not always the most mature cross sections of our society.

   Maybe if you can't beat it, use it...post a profile pic, video, I don't know what is avalible or how it works(with Greenlight), but just a thought.

   Posted 7 months ago #

5. desadoc
   Member

   That's the big public...

   They are like a big theater full of uneducated people. They'll swear, and vocalize any immature thought and criticism... And they like to point fingers too, you just placed yourself there as an easy target. Yes, a lot of sexism and biased "opinion" everywhere :/

   But the game looks good, and as a XNA programmer myself, I can say it is pretty impressive as one-person project made from scratch, including art. I'm trying to make my first game too, and I know how hard it is (and as sometimes it gets even worse due to distractions or lack of motivation).

   But a different platform is something to really think about. XBLIG maybe?

   Posted 7 months ago #

6. silkvg247
   Member

   I'm thinking of either scrapping it or trying for windows 8 - trouble is I have to waste what I learnt with XNA and instead learn html5/canvas/javascript. I don't think it'd be a wasted exercise, as it seems things are going that way in general.

   And yeah XNA isn't easy, have to do so many things from scratch. That's why some of the comments about it being a flash game irk me.

   Posted 7 months ago #

7. zinc
   Member

   Silk... You do sound like a teenage boy... From Northern England... The silver lining here is that you don't sound 34?

   It's a simple assumption to make from video audio alone & no prior knowledge of who you are. Though this doesn't excuse the general ass-hatery you faced in a fair few of the comments :-/

   Good look with your game, sincerely.

   Posted 7 months ago #

8. Talkar
   Member

   You are very very very feministic in a lot of your posts on this site, and find sexism in places it doesn't even exist :P Atleast that is how i see it, but either way some of the comments you've received are absolutely outragous!

   Regarding getting your game up on the Windows 8 Store. You don't have to learn HTML5 or javascript to submit a game to the Windows 8 store. Windows 8 Store apps use either HTML5 & Javascript or WPF & C#.
   It is possible to incorporate XNA into a Windows 8 Store app according to this MSDN blog post:
   http://blogs.msdn.com/b/bobfamiliar/archive/2012/08/07/windows-8-xna-and-monogame-part-3-code-migration-and-windows-8-feature-support.aspx

   I've submitted a couple of things, so if you need some help with the submission process feel free to message me :P

   I haven't read it through, as i'm currently on a train but i hope it helps :)

   Posted 7 months ago #

9. DSB
   Member

   What if someone with an arabic accent made a Greenlight submission and got slammed for sounding arab?

   Would that make all gamers racists?

   That being said, it's not hard to sympathize with the post. That really has to suck. The internet is one big schoolyard sometimes, people gang up around the stupidest things, like bored little children.

   Sadly that also means blending into the crowd would get you less of that sort of attention.

   My only advice would be to respond to them in an ultra-clean fashion. Simply state that you're female, if you feel like that information is needed. If you feed that sort of flame train in any meaningful way, it might hurt your project. And quite often, the best way to deal with assholes is to let everyone else see them for what they are.

   Posted 7 months ago #

10. silkvg247
    Member

    @DSB at least he'd be getting mocked for being something he actually is, not accused of and mocked for being something he isn't. I'm not saying it's right either, though.

    I think blending will be the way forward, but I really dislike the whole scenario. If I were an average male I could pretty much do all this without the same hassle. It's unfair.

    Iv'e tried to be clean and to the point, and I've tried to be the bigger (wo)man and not bite back. I think I've managed it to a degree so far, been using this forum to rant instead.

    Posted 7 months ago #

11. DSB
    Member

    It's not fair, and you have every right to be pissed.

    Just take a few things into consideration though. You do have a young sounding voice, and YouTube is full of kids doing videos on games. In some cases, it could be an honest mistake.

    It's far from unusual to run into videos on stuff like Minecraft narrated by someone who is obviously a little boy.

    Well... See now I'm kinda hoping that I haven't mistaken a bunch of women myself :p

    Fair use for ranting though, I would be pissed too.

    Posted 7 months ago #

12. zinc
    Member

    On a side note, I wonder how many disappointed paedophiles are out there? Finding out their carefully groomed 12 year old boy, is actually a willing 30+ woman :-/

    Posted 7 months ago #

13. silkvg247
    Member

    Willing?! ;p

    Posted 7 months ago #

14. Da Man
    Member

    That proves how mature and rational PC fanboys are, obv.

    It's absolutely evident all of them are married women. Steam community is really different to Xbl or Psn.

    Posted 7 months ago #

15. Gekidami
    Member

    Its Steam, nuff said.

    ;)

    Posted 7 months ago #

16. treborr
    Member

    Way to go Zinc haha!

    Posted 7 months ago #

17. zinc
    Member

    ^ I'm glad you agree Silk faced a fair amount of unnecessary forum post ass-hatery :-)

    You see Silk, it's not all bad ;-)

    Posted 7 months ago #

18. Dragon246
    Member

    Thats just how stupid internet works with no accountability. Most people cant accept anything out of the perceived norm, especially on the net where everyone is anonymous. You probably shouldnt take these people seriously. They are just like stupid 12 year old on 360 blabbering shit over the mic.

    Reminds me of the flak Jade Raymond received for being beautiful lady AND GASP...a game designer, 2 things thst must not co-exist.

    Posted 7 months ago #

19. DSB
    Member

    I don't think Raymond took shit for being pretty, I think she took shit because Ubisoft took advantage of that.

    Who uses production staff to promote a game? It makes no fucking sense, until you count the fact that she's a pretty woman and Patrice Désilets is not.

    On the other end, Corrinne Yu is an attractive woman, a rocket scientist, and largely obscure.

    Posted 7 months ago #

20. zinc
    Member

    I see your Corrine Yu & raise you Carol Vorderman.

    http://m.zimbio.com/Carol+Vorderman/pictures/pro

    Posted 7 months ago #

21. YoungZer0
    Member

    Sorry, silkvg247, but i have to disagree with you here.

    So people assume that you're a young boy, because you do sound very young and that's sexist ... because?

    It's a simple assumption. They don't know better. You do have to remember that they hear your voice for the first time. They don't see your face, they only hear your voice.

    If they do know that you're a 34 year old female and they still think that you sound like a young boy, that's still not sexist. You might think that it's insulting, but it's not sexist. It has nothing to do with your gender.

    Having that said, comments like these:

    "Ohhhh youre a woman thats why this game looks like it's made for the mentally handicapped"

    Are definitely sexist and you have every reason to get mad about those.

    Anyway, i'd rather talk about your game. Are you interested in some feedback?

    Posted 7 months ago #

22. Dragon246
    Member

    @DSB,
    Oh really, then CliffyB should take shit because epic used him to promote gears of war.
    Or Kojima for MGS
    Or Miyamoto for mario
    Or Cage for quantic dream
    And so on...
    A useless argument. Just because it was a "she", it rubbed "gamers" the wrong way.

    Posted 7 months ago #

23. YoungZer0
    Member

    @Dragon: The people you mentioned either worked as designer or director on their games. Guess who isn't a designer/director on videogames.

    Posted 7 months ago #

24. zinc
    Member

    ^ Booth Babes?

    Ah, but its ok for their looks to be used for promotional purposes right?

    Posted 7 months ago #

25. YoungZer0
    Member

    ... huh?

    Posted 7 months ago #

26. zinc
    Member

    Jade Redmond.. was given crap for being pretty & being used to promote a game...

    Yet Booth Babes are not attacked at all & are used in the same way. Just seems odd.

    Posted 7 months ago #

27. DSB
    Member

    @Dragon246

    Gears of War was produced by Rod Fergusson

    Heavy Rain was produced by Charles Caultier

    Metal Gear Solid was co-produced between Motoyuki Yoshioka and Hideo Kojima. Kojima was also credited as lead designer.

    Super Mario Brothers was produced by Hiroshi Yamauchi. Miyamoto "retired" to production later in his career.

    A useless argument? Not quite.

    @zinc Do booth babes get credits on videogames? News to me.

    Maybe it's really about merit and credibility.

    Posted 7 months ago #

28. Dragon246
    Member

    @DSB
    You dont get it. The people I mentioned did not much for the game, yet they still behaved like mascots, just like Jade.
    But people can give shit to her and not others, thats bullshit.
    @Young
    See DSB comment, some of them arent even actively involved in the game.

    Posted 7 months ago #

29. Digital Bamboo
    Member

    I have to agree with some of the other posters on here and say that this, for the most part, is not sexism. It's largely a case of mistaken (gender) identity.

    My sister works with cars. Practically every day she has some douchebag question whether she can really drive their manual car into the service bay. The assumption being, that because she's female, she can't drive stick. She has also been repeatedly passed up for raises and bonuses while all of her male co-workers have got theirs, despite having more experience and better knowledge than some of them of cars. That's sexism.

    I once mistook one of my students for a girl for a solid month, before I found out they were a boy. I wasn't being sexist. He looked like a girl, had a girlish hairstyle, & an asexual name. I had no idea he was a boy. I was just going on what I had. Just like the people on Greenlight--with only your voice to go on--made that assumption about you.

    As a man with a less-than-loud speaking voice I know how annoying it can be when people mock something you have little control over, (especially when my voice doesn't sound particularly quiet to me) but considering how many people have told me I'm quiet over the years, I guess I have to take their word for it and accept it as true.

    As for the blatantly offensive posts and denials that you are actually a 34-year-old woman--I think you can chalk that up to general internet idiocy. Best to ignore it. Or, if it persists, contact Valve directly with your concerns. They're all about innovation. Perhaps they can develop some sort of asshole-purging software. One can only hope.

    Posted 7 months ago #

30. GwynbleiddiuM
    Member

    @Silk, TBH I think that Steam isn't the best place for your game, at least that's what I think. although, I'd say don't give up, you're going to experience similar behaviors from people all across the internet. Scrapping something you put time to create is not a good move IMO, revising it, making it look better adding more features, that's the way to go.

    @Dragon, Hideo Kojima didn't do much for the game (MGS)? He wrote the damn story, he designed the damn game, he produced and co-produced them and he created all of them (canon).

    @Da Man "That proves how mature and rational PC fanboys are, obv." And you're the glorious representation of what console gaming community is all about, right? opinionated prats, with no manners whatsoever that automatically assumes the worst in people based on a few comments read? Assholes are all over the internet, being one of them should give you that much clarity at the very least.

    Posted 7 months ago #

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