Sony's Next-Gen backwards compatibility fix?

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Sony's Next-Gen backwards compatibility fix?

(26 posts)

Started 8 months ago by OrbitMonkey
Latest reply from DrDamn

OrbitMonkey
Member

In amother thread, Gadzooks brought up a interesting idea. Namely that Sony will use Gaiki to stream PS3 games to their next gen console, as the architecture of the Orbis(?) will not support the mighty cell processors, but more than likely be some mundane pc in a box...

Tbh, I think that's really plausible. Your account would have a record of the games you've played and I imagine the service itself would be covered by some kind of sub fee. Plus wouldn't this be cheaper than trying to make the Orbis(?) fully backwards compatible?

What do you guys and gals think?

Posted 8 months ago #
Ireland Michael
Moderator

I would rather just be allowed to use the discs I bought, thanks.

Posted 8 months ago #
DSB
Member

I doubt it.

There's just not enough money in it for anyone to bother. I think that was heavily underlined with this gen.

Going into it everybody was like "Backwards compatability!" but then that just turned into a massive disappointment.

It's a shame though. I wish there was some way that you could download the best of the older games. Surely there has to be some kind of asian sweatshop that can port those games for 20 bucks an hour?

Posted 8 months ago #
monkeygourmet
Member

I think he's bang on, although it's not exactly fresh news. Digital Foundary did a feature on this.

I think he's right regarding the Cell being an absolute bitch to emulate, look at the problems with the emotion engine...

It'd be a very easy way for Sony to offer some kind of BC without crazy hard emulation. But, as I stated the problem would be MS could potentially kill them with upscaling as I listed in a previous post (sorry about copy and paste):

"That would make sense, especially the GaiKai streaming for PS3 games…

Still, this could really fuck Sony up, if the 720 could play 95% of its old back catalogue in 1080p and at 60fps, and Sony could only muster shitty streaming at 720p for the PS4, it’d be a clear disadvantage.

The only thing stopping MS would be if they wanted to cash in on HD remasters on 720 although I don’t think they would be that stupid.

If they could show GTA 5 running upscaled to 1080p on 720 at E3 next year, people would be throwing money at them.

That would mean you could have a few launch titles to show off and a huge back catalogue.

I expect MS will coincide the launch of 720 with a new COD, MW4 or whatever with huge exclusive features. Elite on smart glass etc…

That could make sense heading for a Nov 2013 launch, it would also fuck Sony and Nintendo up in a BIG way."

Posted 8 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

Or they could just chuck in a cell processor as a secondary stream processor (what it's actually really good at). Sorted.

No one bothers with proper up rezzing - which is what you are implying with your post above MG, upscaling isn't a big issue, but properly rendering the older game in a higher resolution - not gonna happen.

Posted 8 months ago #
Talkar
Member

Not going to happen. Most people don't have a good enough connection for highquality, low latency streaming and gaming.
Maybe in some years, but not right now.

Posted 8 months ago #
monkeygourmet
Member

@DrDamn

Sorry, not quite 100% with upscaling knowledge! ;)

Couldnt MS offer a small patch with games like Forza Horizen, Halo 4 and GTA 5 to up the res to 1080p with the new Xbox?

And how about upscaling on existing games? Surely it would be on par with the Dolphin Emulator running Wii games at 1080p? Couldn't you force this res?

Also, if the 720 offered the same upscaling as the 360 games did to Xbox (smoothing etc...), how good could a game like Gears 3 look on the new console?

Also, chucking in a Cell would surely just lead to them removing it like the Emotion Engine in the Ps3?

Posted 8 months ago #
monkeygourmet
Member

@Talkar

So, what's the solution?

Do you think the PS4 will run PS3 games out of the box? How is that possible without it including the Cell chip, as DrDamn stated or through streaming...?

How do you think they'll get around this problem? MS architecture for Xbox 360 and 720 is likely very similar so it won't have the same problems.

Posted 8 months ago #
Ireland Michael
Moderator

Chips get miniaturized. The parts required to fix into a top of the range console 7 years ago would fit into the size of one or two cell phones now. I don't believe for a second this can't be done with the Cell, and if Sony is claiming otherwise than it is nothing more than hyperbole.

Posted 8 months ago #
monkeygourmet
Member

@Ireland

I get that, it just seems an incredibly clumsy solution to the potential problem. Also, that would mean it should run EVERY single PS3 game, something they wouldn't want in regards to selling downloads and HD remasters.

They would have to disable certain games, hackers would show them working on YouTube and Sony would have egg on their face AGAIN. Mind you, that's par for the course...

Posted 8 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

@MG
It's possible with a limited number of games, but there is a world of difference between the dolphin emulator and a commercially supported emulator included as a console feature. The dolphin one could use hacky work arounds, have the general users test for them, chuck out updates as and when issues are found. There is also the issue of cannibalising new game sales, if they make too good a job of it.

Posted 8 months ago #
monkeygourmet
Member

@DDamn

"There is also the issue of Cannibalising new game sales..."

This is the biggest issue that stands againts 1080p 360 games for me.

Gears Judgement in 1080p would prob look as good as a lot of 720 launch games for example...

MS wouldn't want to hinder 720 I guess. But having patches or exclusive 'high res' texture packs for games like Skyrim, Halo 4, GTA 5 etc... All available for 1600 ms points would surely not only be profitable, but really kick Sony's ass on launch?

Posted 8 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

@MG
Mentioned in another thread but I can see the launches being very service based. Consoles heavily subsidised by a sizeable monthly sub. That gets you the console for <£100 and a service akin to the best of Live and games ala PS+ included. That could include "enhanced" versions of older 360 games.

New games could then range from fully included in your sub to sizeable chunks of big games with extra content or features as paid for DLC.

Posted 8 months ago #
Erthazus
Member

Why the next Sony's console can't support mighty Cell processor? It's not mighty anymore and it was not mighty back in the day. It was just a costly piece of tech, now it is not.

So far, IBM can and will support Sony with Cell processors no matter what. There is a contract between Sony and IBM obv.

Posted 8 months ago #
OlderGamer
Moderator

The only BC I am concerned with is the stuff I bought digitaly. I want my downloaded games and dlc that goes with them. I can live without most disc based games. I also don't want XB LIVE 360 to shut down near over nite like they did with XB one.

Posted 8 months ago #
Joe Musashi
Member

With the sales success of HD remakes I wouldn't expect Sony to rush around engineering backwards compatibility. One generates revenue, the other cannibalises it.

JM

Posted 8 months ago #
Gadzooks!
Member

Unless your streamed PS1/2 collections are part of a subscription add-on.

That's going to be sustainable revenue without development costs.

Posted 8 months ago #
stalepie
Member

"I would rather just be allowed to use the discs I bought, thanks."

There could be a feature where it recognizes you have a legitimate PS disc in the drive and then allows access to the streamed version for free. You'd have the illusion of playing your disc copy, and people would scoff, of course, but it'd be a way of satisfying customers who rightfully don't want to rebuy stuff.

Posted 8 months ago #
stalepie
Member

Emulator authors on forums say that it will take some time before even a PC can emulate a PS3.

Posted 8 months ago #
Phoenixblight
Member

@stalepie

There is no need to emulate a PS3 especially if you own one. Just hook it up and go and the PS4 will not be changing its architecture that it does what PS3 did for the PS2. There is no need for a specialized chip to play them. If they do exactly what they did with PS3 again they haven't learned anything from the PS3 launch.

Posted 8 months ago #
stalepie
Member

Well, it would just be cool to have an all-in-one device. Of course you can always hook up the original machines. If you're a video gamer like me it becomes a nuisance over time when you're dealing with multiple devices.

For instance, I recently ordered an Xbox 1 game off ebay for about 6 dollars -- Otogi -- I don't think it's supported by 360 -- but I don't have either Microsoft system despite owning various forms of Windows for many years, and having a computer that's surely powerful enough to play it in emulation, even an officially-sanctioned/developed Xbox emulator by Microsoft if they wanted to make one. (shrug) But the companies don't see the money in this, if there is money. Perhaps there's just a loss. It isn't worth the trouble to them, not like it is for movie companies to reprint old movies or book companies to reprint old books that weren't written in the last 3 years.

I know, I know, it's crazy, people are still reading Shakespeare, but they are. I know, it's insane. But us crazies exist. And we don't want to have a special "old school" version of the Kindle that's compatible with only 1700s titles...

Posted 8 months ago #
Phoenixblight
Member

I am just saying that Ps4 to PS3 won't be an issue. I am unsure of the Ps2 games on what they could do. I have an emulator that plays 90% of the games I own because playing a Ps2 on a HD LCD looks like crap at least with an emulator I can tweak that and I have done so. I am not sure if Sony is too keen on making an emulator for the PS2 games since Sony has invested into an sdk that makes it quite easy to make an HD remake for the Ps3 and it costs very little compared to developing a triple A game. Easy revenue.

Posted 8 months ago #
stalepie
Member

yes, that is true, but they won't take the time to convert most of the library, only certain bestsellers, usually ones with sequels, whereas uploading an ISO encased in DRM takes all of a few seconds with these old games, and pre 32-bit games (before Sony) tended to be less than a couple of megabytes in size. I mean, you can host the entire Sega Genesis and SNES libraries in less than the space of one blu-ray game like Dead Space 2.

I complain too much. I know I got it good and it's not like I have the time (or desire) to play all these games anyway. Just begins to bug me after a while that all those old games will be left in the past.

Posted 8 months ago #
Phoenixblight
Member

"yes, that is true, but they won't take the time to convert most of the library, only certain bestsellers, usually ones with sequels"

Its up to the publishers and developers to do the work SOny just gives them a tool that they can use to make the process easier and if the publisher wants to make a multiplatform for HD remake then they have to make their own version to upscale it.

Posted 8 months ago #
Christopher Jack
Member

Perhaps there won't be any emulation what so ever. Adding a cell processor just for PS3 emulation will add to the cost of every PS4 & Sony can't afford yet another $599 embarrassment. Remembering that one of the first things that they cut from the PS3 after the initial launch was the PS2's Emotion Engine followed by the PS2's Graphics Synthesizer removing any trace of the PS2 in the PS3 rendering PS2 emulation a very expensive venture with little return.

Also to note, if people think that MS is going to have an easier transition & be able to emulate with 0 troubles, think again. The Xbox 360 uses the same PowerPC architecture that is also used in the PS3. According to the rumors, both will be moving to the x86-64bit architecture that modern PCs use. Both Sony & Microsoft's transition will be very similar.

Posted 8 months ago #
DrDamn
Member

@ChristopherJack
I think the key differentiator between how easy and successfully emulation will be between MS and Sony is that MS are a better software company. By that I mean in terms of SDK, design, libraries. That could make a big difference.

RE: Inclusion of Cell in PS4. Difference here is that the Cell is a very good stream processor, so actually may have a good use in the PS4 aside from emulation. It will depend on costs of course, but I can see it being a more useful chip than the emotion engine would have been to a PS3.

Posted 8 months ago #

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