That's not what I said.
What I believe is irrelevant, but the point (fact) is that you can be put in prison for saying so.
Not so much freedom of speech in the West, after all...
Oh gawd, why?! Iran officially block WoW (battle.net entirely)
(226 posts)-
Posted 9 months ago #
-
I don't know anyone trying to lead the world into righteousness. Every country and organisation serves it's own needs.
The difference is really the extent of those needs, the rights afforded by the ideologies behind them, and most importantly their cumulative results.
There's no such thing as a perfect system or a perfect society, any more as there is such a thing as a perfect human being.
While we're on the topic of rape, there might not be as many reported cases of rape in a place like Saudi Arabia, but I reckon that has something to do with the fact that a woman would have to assemble four witnesses, to actually make her case in front of a (purely male) court.
In our part of the world, women are allowed to become judges. And we prosecute our rapists, instead of their victims.
As for freedom of the press, I believe it's illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany and France, but it's perfectly legal here. Considering that Germany is the country in Europe with the most neo-nazis, it's safe to say that it hasn't done them any favors.
If a paper did it here, it would have a lot to prove if it did make such a statement. Or rather, disprove.
Trying to use exceptions isn't very effective. They are exceptions, at least. We're talking about a society where oppression of women and the press is the rule.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Edit:
You know what?
No.
Said I wasn't gonna get involved. Going to stick with that.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Probably for the better.
I didn't really want to get involved either, but the idea that freedom is entirely relative, and that there's no difference between the rights and conditions afforded by different societies, was just too lame to be allowed to stand.
Good luck though, Gwyn! I really hope it gets better over there.
Posted 9 months ago # -
So, when we're talking cumulative results here, are we talking the number of dead civilians, or the number of those put into poverty through having the entire infrastructure of their country bombed into dust?
And as for reported rape cases, then you're just speculating in order to justify your own understanding there, DSB. How in the world could you possibly say that without it being a complete guess?
Like you said, lets look at the facts.
Real facts.
For example. the "fact" that you gave there about needing 5 witnesses for rape (you meant 4, but you were still mistaken) simply isn't true.
You're getting confused with 4 witnesses being needed in order to prove consenting adultery, which is a completely different thing.
Please, just do a little research before making such claims in the future. A woman who is raped doesn't need 4 (or 5) witnesses at all.
"In our part of the world..."
Woah! Hold the condescending tone there, fella...
I'm 100% British. My father was serving in the Army when I was born, and I was raised knowing nothing but British culture. I know exactly how things are in my own country, thanks.
It's such a contradiction that a society where women are literally treated as sexual objects, and mere play-things have decided to try and put themselves forward as being the champions of womens rights.
What's even more ironic is that when a woman tells them that they want to practice their religion in a certain way, they tell them that they're being forced by a man! Or that they don't actually know what they want.
It's like what Manu pointed out before. You've got to conform to the norms, or you're a 'freak'.
On the point of Holocaust denial, it's actually a "crime" in 17 countries. And if you weren't in one of those countries, you could just as easily get prosecuted for antisemitism in most others.
This isn't the exception at all. This is a perfect example of how hypocritical people are when it comes to the things closest to them.
It's a fact that Jews have a strong influence in many Western societies today, and they've worked to make it an offence to make claims about them just as the King of any autocracy wouldn't have you make claims about him.
So saying that it's ok for one, but not for the other is disgraceful hypocrisy of the highest order.
It's easy to throw stones and make claims (some not even true) about other people, but you've actually got to be in a better position first, before you can talk.
(btw, one of my fave programs ever is Judge Judy. A female, Jewish judge! lol!)
Posted 9 months ago # -
DSB I think i didnt explain myself correctly but here i will try to make myself clear, even if we dont agree:
"That makes no sense Manu.
I'm allowed to challenge my leader.
I'm allowed to curse at my leader.
I'm allowed to express dissatisfaction with my leader.
I'm allowed to become the leader, by election.None of that would lead to any repercussions from that leader.
I don't feel like I've ever been isolated by society for my opinions. They've always been strong, and I've supported plenty of unpopular causes in my time. I've been challenged, but generally people are capable of argueing without having to ruin eachothers lives for it"
Iam not saying a leader or an specific individual(insert any name), i meant the whole system, if someones try to elaborate reasons for the abolishment of a system, like capitalism, comunisim, royalty,etc., it will be isolated and some consecuences will becoming to that person, for example in royal countries like Spain and England, you can say down the rotalty, or we want to stop being a monarchy country, true, but there will be consecuences and all levels for the person and/or group of persons that voice this in public, and also on other systems like capitalism , democracy, or comunisim, they are more likely be able to put some labels on the person in order to disminish the merit of the reasoning, without seeing the value on the reasons, therfore tags like crazy people, a troublemaker, or a conspirator torwards the establishment etc, are being place upon those persons or person, and that is some sort of isolation when you look at it, even the media that support those systems, will be all over agaisnt that person because they have particular interest in those systems, so the consecuences are very different according with the system, ones will be more sever than others, but there will be consecuences nontheless.
Therefore the freedom is only allowed to the point you dont mess with the system established in one country, you can mess with x person, but not with the system, and to a certain point and degree, otherwise they will shut you up and/or stop that person, in many different ways and that applies to any system, thats why i said freedom is a mirage on any system know to man, and this wihtout adding the way the society has been designed to keep us under control, but thats another topic, so that was what i did try to say i hope you understand my view of things even if you dont agree, thats fine.
Then you said
"I choose to disregard everything, in order to make a point that makes no sense, and claim it to be just as valid"Sure, if you disregard actual fact, and merit, then everything becomes equally valid. But then it's ultimately also devoid of any sense of intelligence”
I never said that i disregard everything to claim my points are valid, you were quoting me?
Posted 9 months ago # -
http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia
The Saudi guardianship system continues to treat women as minors. Under this discriminatory system, girls and women of all ages are forbidden from traveling, studying, or working without permission from their male guardians. In 2009 the Ministry of Commerce, though not other ministries, stopped requiring women to conduct ministerial business through a male representative.
On June 17 around 40 women with international drivers’ licenses participated in a “women2drive” campaign. No law bars women from driving, but senior government clerics have ruled against the practice. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world to prohibit women from driving.
And there`s a little bit about:
Migrant Worker Rights:
Some 1.5 million migrant domestic workers remain excluded from the 2005 Labor Law. As in years past, Asian embassies reported thousands of complaints from domestic workers forced to work 15 to 20 hours a day, seven days a week, and denied their salaries. Domestic workers, most of whom are women, frequently endure forced confinement, food deprivation, and severe psychological, physical, and sexual abuse
Freedom of Expression, Belief, and Assembly:
Saudi Arabia does not tolerate public worship by adherents of religions other than Islam and systematically discriminates against its religious minorities, in particular Shia and Ismailis (a distinct branch of Shiism). Official discrimination against Shia encompasses religious practices, education, and the justice system. Government officials exclude Shia from certain public jobs and policy questions and publicly disparage their faith.
On March 5 the Interior Ministry categorically prohibited public protests “because they contradict the principles of the Islamic Shari'a and the values and customs of Saudi society." The royally appointed Council of Senior Religious Scholars, whose interpretation of religious law is binding, seconded the ban, and intelligence forces in March arrested Muhammad al-Wad'ani, and Khalid al-Juhani for advocating protests for political change.
Saudi Arabia does not allow political or human rights associations. In February intelligence forces arrested six persons who planned to found the kingdom’s first political party.
Etc...
Posted 9 months ago # -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaween
The mutaween (Arabic: المطوعين، مطوعجية muṭawwiʿīn, muṭawwiʿiyyah)[1] are the government-authorized or government-recognized religious police (or clerical police) of Saudi Arabia. They are also religious-policing organizations in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and the former Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan with at least some government recognition or deference which enforce varied interpretations of Sharia law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
Sharia (Arabic: شريعة šarīʿah, IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa], "legislation"; sp. shariah, sharīʿah;[1] also قانون إسلامي qānūn ʾIslāmī) is the moral code and religious law of Islam. Sharia deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, and fasting. Though interpretations of sharia vary between cultures, in its strictest definition it is considered the infallible law of God—as opposed to the human interpretation of the laws (fiqh).
The rules of evidence in sharia courts also maintain a distinctive custom of prioritizing oral testimony.[118][119] A confession, an oath, or the oral testimony of a witness are the main evidence admissible in a hudud case, written evidence is only admissible when deemed reliable by the judge, i.e., notaries.[120] Testimony must be from at least two witnesses, and preferably free Muslim male witnesses, who are not related parties and who are of sound mind and reliable character; testimony to establish the crime of adultery, or zina must be from four direct witnesses.[121] Forensic evidence (i.e., fingerprints, ballistics, blood samples, DNA etc.) and other circumstantial evidence is likewise rejected in hudud cases in favor of eyewitnesses, a practice which can cause severe difficulties for women plaintiffs in rape cases.[122] Testimony from women is given only half the weight of men,[citation needed] and testimony from non-Muslims may be excluded altogether (if against a Muslim).[citation needed] Non-Muslim minorities, however, could and did use sharia courts, even amongst themselves.[123][not in citation given]
Posted 9 months ago # -
Oh yeah we hate women and we hate to teach them. That's why my medical college has what counts for 52% female students. That's why my mother is a medical doctor and 3 of my female cousins are doctors/medical students.
In my year at college, we the males count for 150, our female counterpart counts for 262.
This is how much we hate em.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Where does it say you hate women?
Are any of the information not factually right?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Ignore people who can do little more than copy/paste completely out of context stuff in order to back up their hatred, Ali.
Posted 9 months ago # -
"Please, just do a little research before making such claims in the future. A woman who is raped doesn't need 4 (or 5) witnesses at all."
So first you ask one to do a little research and when one does I need to be ignored?
What part is taken out of context?
Hatred!!! it`s by Wikipedia and human Rights Watch...
Are you playing the victim card now ?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Yup......
Oh I can give ya the # of the Indonesian maid that works for my grandma, you can ask her how she is treated or how much she earns. Abuse? sure there is some abuse, but I read a lot of that happening in the US and other countries. The country bans other religions ? do you even know how many Saudi Christians do we have ? any studies ? nothing...
Testimony from women is given only half the weight of men,[citation needed] and testimony from non-Muslims may be excluded altogether (if against a Muslim)
LoL, this is false... why would we exclude a non Muslim testimony if it was against a Muslim ? In this Sharia, respecting a non Muslim is a must. providing him with his rights is obligatory, harming him is wrong, stealing him is wrong and the punishment for all of that is equal to that of a Muslim.
"Please, just do a little research before making such claims in the future. A woman who is raped doesn't need 4 (or 5) witnesses at all."
I studied forensic last year and while I haven't really been into a case of Zina, Forensic medicine isn't ignored, what you read still applies if non of the forensic evidences can be applied.
@G1GAHURTZ dear friend, we have to clear thing out not starting a fight on the net. I understand your point but JB is just using what is available in his hand.
Posted 9 months ago # -
I remember reading a blog for a british teacher who wanted to come and teach in saudi arabia, but his wife was affraid she might not like it here.
they came anyway and after his contract ended he asked her whether she wants him to renew or not, she agreed to stay.
he said " I didnt know there's a place in the world where u can go to the beach and BBQ til 3 am without worrying about getting mugged" that gives you a view of how safe it is here in saudi arabia
I don't even have a gun in my house and I dont lock my dorm room when I leave to class.
sure we are not perfect, but who is?
Posted 9 months ago # -
@JB:
What part??
What point were you making? You just posted some links and quotes that weren't relevant to the conversation. The only one speaking about the Mutaawa is you.
In fact, all you did was prove my point about 4 witnesses needed for adultery, and not 5, as the wiki article clearly backs me up.
And yes, hatred. Not from the articles, but from you. It's obvious.
@Ali:
Don't be fooled. JB isn't here for a discussion, he's here to attack and insult. Compare the tone of his comments to everyone else's.
Posted 9 months ago # -
why on earth is the whole world concerned with the well-being of women in saudi arabia? xD
u find it wrong? i find it wrong that youre able to hire strippers and prostitutes
just because u outnumber us does not mean youre right
justin beiber has more fans than metallica, does that make him superior? NO! XD
EDIT:
and just because I believe in it does not mean you have to do so.
many foreign women don't wear hijab in saudi arabia
so why do u want to force ur believes on us? leave us the hell alone.
EDIT#2:
Ive seen many pics of saudi women forced to drop the hijab in france and belguim, talk about freedom
Posted 9 months ago # -
That's just nonsense Manu.
First of all, there is no "system". A free society is not a coherent unit acting as one, it's largely chaos ruled according to the vote of the majority, in accordance with a common constitution.
1. The government is elected by the people. Each citizen gets one vote.
2. You can form any party you wish, representing any ideology you wish, and run for election, as long as you intend to serve the constitution (which in enlightened countries usually means that you can't seek to violate the rights of others)
3. The press isn't owned by the government, and you're completely free to publish whatever you want, and establish your own newspaper and/or TV station. The press, like yourself, is allowed to say whatever it wants about whatever it wants, as long as it's not fabricated.
You're completely ignoring the fact that sometimes, people just don't like what you have to say. You're still perfectly free to preach whatever you want, and make your case anyway. But they're also perfectly entitled to tell you to go fuck yourself if they don't like it.
No one ever had a right to tell George Carlin to shut up, and he made a lot of money because he was allowed to express himself however he desired. He never would've been able to do that in the Soviet Union, or Saudi Arabia.
In a democracy, the majority has the power. In a dictatorship, it belongs to one man. In a democracy, a millions of minds help set the course. In a dictatorship, it's one mind (sometimes supported by an exclusive minority).
Suggesting that it's somehow the same thing is complete nonsense.
@G1GA
Right, I got rape and adultery mixed up. The charms of the Saudi justice system are still a matter of public record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case
I don't claim to have a unique understanding of the female mind, but I'm thinking that the threat of having someone whip you 200 times, and lock you in a cell for a year could potentially serve as a deterrent for any woman who might consider reporting a rape.
Posted 9 months ago # -
@Giga
Oh yes because ppl like me you left your country *sobber*
Fella, there are always compromises ppl can make. Both sides. When you say: "leave if you dont like" how stupid is that? My best friend is a Jew, the other one a Muslim and I am an atheist. And surprise, we live in the same country. But I know, for ppl like you its impossible.Posted 9 months ago # -
"What point were you making? You just posted some links and quotes that weren't relevant to the conversation. The only one speaking about the Mutaawa is you.
In fact, all you did was prove my point about 4 witnesses needed for adultery, and not 5, as the wiki article clearly backs me up."
Exactly, I like facts, you´re just firing one personal attack one after the other thus dodging the other facts.
We where talking about Saudia Arabia - yes? I gave you Human Rights Watch repport on Saudia Arabia, Mutaween are a part of Saudia Aribia are they not.
You made a point of how women are treated in The West according to you:
"It's such a contradiction that a society where women are literally treated as sexual objects, and mere play-things have decided to try and put themselves forward as being the champions of womens rights."
I
m posting how theyre treated in Saudia Arabia.You`re freely attacking The West, North America etc:
"It makes me laugh when I see the current news in the USA going on about the right to abort children concieved from rape, when the USA itself is the bastard child of a brutal rape of an entire nation.
Half of the European countries were just as brutal, and hypocritical today, for that matter. Having a war where tens of millions of people died trying to 'protect' the world from Hitler was sooooo civilised, right? And I say 'protect', because I'm not actually sure how much different the world would be today, had he won. I'm not sure that there's much of a difference in the way he was trying to control Europe and the way that the Europeans invaded North America."
You then accuse me of hate, which is I find quite ironic:
Don't be fooled. JB isn't here for a discussion, he's here to attack and insult. Compare the tone of his comments to everyone else's.
Posted 9 months ago # -
DSB : "I don't claim to have a unique understanding of the female mind, but I'm thinking that the threat of having someone whip you 200 times, and lock you in a cell for a year could potentially serve as a deterrent for any woman who might consider reporting a rape."
Well, there are many things that would differentiate between an act of adultery and rape. The presence or resistance marks on the raper, the presence of skin tissue under the nails of the victim, any injury on her body.. all of that is taken under consideration.
And yes, there are women who reported adultery themselves after regretting that and they underwent punishment.
Posted 9 months ago # -
@DSB:
Show me a society where there isn't a deterent to reporting a rape case...
In the West, some legal team will call the woman a slut, get inside her head and tell her that she was begging for it.
Besides, that logic doesn't really work here, since she was convicted of "being alone with a man who was not a relative". As I'm sure you're well aware, there is complete segregation between the (non-related) sexes in Saudi, so it's not like every rape victim is going to be in the same position as the woman in this single case.
Regardless, the fact of segregation means that there's a huge amount less of a chance for women to be sexually assaulted.
That's why you get that sexual assault every 2 minutes in the US figure. Men and women interact everywhere, so there's ample opportunity.
You might not want to believe it, but (and I'm certain that the statistics will back me up without needing to check) the laws here really do make Saudi one of the safest places to live.
For both sexes.
Posted 9 months ago # -
@KK:
It's not stupid. It's what humans do. They find like-minded people and live among them.
If you feel that you can't live the way that you want to live in your own country, then go to another one. He wouldn't be the first. There are loads of Iranians in London, for example.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Yeah, i think more nations should punish victims and practice segregation. Because then you'd at least hear less about crimes, and thats all that really matters.
Posted 9 months ago # -
And you basically never ever hear us bashing the way you live even if it is completely different than how we do. You never hear us bashing how much $ you spend drinking and how ugly you look when drunk. You don't hear us bashing you for gambling, or having relationships before marrying. You don't hear us laughing at how revealing your clothes can be or the nudity that can be allowed on the streets. We disagree with all of that. We hate all of that , but again it is your land, your country,your MONEY and you are free to live the way you want, just let others live the way they want whether under the Sharia law or whatever they want.
Posted 9 months ago # -
@JB:
English isn't your first language, is it? Where are you originally from, exactly?
Posted 9 months ago # -
@Geki:
Shouldn't you be reading some conspiracy theory about how Jesus didn't exist or something?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Guy that thinks dem evil Jews run the world is talking about conspiracy theories? Oh, the irony. Better watch out, levels of hypocrisy that high are most likely punishable by 1000 lashes where you live.
Posted 9 months ago # -
LOL!
Hit a sore note there, did I?
Oh dear.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Not trying to toss more hornets into the nest here or anything, but I am honestly curious: what repercussions are there for males who commit adultery? I figured it would be best to ask people who know because they live in an Islamic country, rather than acquire unreliable information on the matter.
And just to lighten the mood a bit (because it needs it), here's a true story on how ignorant some people can be:
Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum owns a Thoroughbred farm near me, and my mother and I bred several mares to some of his stallions.
We were both invited along with other clients to an appreciation night at the farm a few years back, and we were allowed to bring a guest. She invited her husband, I on the other hand and unfortunately, invited the idiot I was dating at the time who fancied himself a horseman.
So, we were all chatting and one of the Darley men - some executive type - was chatting along with us. Out of the BLUE, my boyfriend looks at him and says: "You all don't believe in God do you?"
I just looked at him aghast and if I could have crawled into the ground I would have. I was like "of course they do!" The man was very, very, very patient, and kind about it, and explained that - um yeah they do believe in God.
So, then, idiocy never dies you see - he says to the man: "Okay, so you just don't believe in Jesus then." Again, as if speaking to a child, the man said: "Yes, we do. He was a kind prophet, but he is not our prophet, nor do we believe him to be the son of God."
Not all of us in the US are idiots, but as you can tell by my story, they are the ones who are the loudest. Ergo, don't let them tarnish your view of us as a whole. 90% of the people I personally know are kind, tolerant, welcoming, and very "live and let live" types minus all the hippie nonsense. :)
Posted 9 months ago # -
I dont know why people think the government only stone women who commit adultery, where did that idea come from?
it goes like this
married = stoned to death
whether ure a male or a female
single people however have some flexible punishments, none that lead to death
Posted 9 months ago #
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