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1. silkvg247
   Member

   I finally worked it out. My peeve with most modern console games.

   A brief history first - I'm a PC and console gamer. I've owned consoles from the Atari 2600, to the Master system, snes, yadda ya you get the idea. I fell out of love with consoles when they went to analogue controls. More on that in a bit.

   I got into PC gaming later, starting with a P4 as my first gaming system. The first thing I did, interestingly, was go into a PC world and find a mouse that would fit my wee girly hands. You probably know where this is going now.

   My skill rating on games is as follows:

   PC - expert
   Retro consoles - expert
   Current gen consoles - novice/medium

   In every driving game I oversteer constantly. In every shooter I overaim. Turning sensitivity down just means constrant frustrations over not being able to move my reticule fast enough. I've been gaming years and I just cannot get used to modern analogue sticks.

   Then the other day it dawned on me, at last. I don't know if it was the dull ache in most of my fingers, or the fact I was playing "Infamous" on EASY (ffs!) and literally screaming in frustration at not being able to aim for shit in the missions that kind of require it. At dying all the time. For those not in the know, to aim in Infamous ont he ps3 one must hold L1, aim with the left analogue stick, and fire with R1 or some other button for a special power.

   Where was I.. ah yes the lightbulb above my head. I looked at the controller. I looked at my hand. It just clicked. This controller doesn't fit my hand. My hand is killing me. On the left side I have to hold L1 pretty much constantly, using my little finger to balance the control and my thumb to aim. On the right side, a similar setup but perhaps less analog use, though I do tweak the cam all the time as well (right stick).

   Imagine if your hand was about 30/40% smaller. I figured out that it's the thumb sticks themselves that are the problem. They are too high up, the stick too elevated. It means that my entire hand is stretched out way more than is comfortable and it really, really affects accuracy - also causes pain.

   The Xbox controller is even worse, it feels like it was designed for someone with twice my hand's span. If you take a ruler and measure from little finger to thumb tips - what do you get? I get 17.5cm - and the peripherals are designed around a much bigger average.

   Well, one one hand (no pun intended) I'm kind of relieved to find out why I can't get on with console games anymore. But on the other hand it makes me very sad. It's not like any hardware manufacturer would ever care or try to fix this because we're too much of a niche and multiple versions of controls wouldn't get off the whiteboard. Shame, cos I'd be happy to pay a premium since I accept I'm in the minority.

   Man, I miss my megadrive controller. It was perfect for my hand, I never got tired when using it.

   I'm not saying it's impossible for us girls to play, but certainly for any chicks with hands my size, they're playing with a handicap even if they don't realise it (i.e. if current gen consoles are all they've ever known). Interestingly I have the exact same issue with guitar hero guitars but it's worse - I literally can't span the buttons at all making the game unplayable. Good job I'm a drums person eh!

   Well there we go. I'll still play console games but I think at one point I'll just give up the ghost. I'm so sore from playing Infamous but I want to complete it so heh.. I'll battle on.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. OrbitMonkey
   Member

   Pfft, girls, never fucking happy ;-)

   Though on a serious note, their is a controller called the splitfish frag fx (or sumfin) that might be better for playing your PS3.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. DSB
   Member

   Dude, you have really small hands.

   I can definitely relate to controllers being uncomfortable though. If I spend two hours playing Xbox my fingers are aching as well. And I'm way more comfortable with a mouse, so getting precision with a stick is a real challenge.

   You should do what all other girls do, and just get a Wii.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. silkvg247
   Member

   I have a wii, it's shit. ;)

   Was looking at this but it seems expensive for a 3rd party.. and I don't trust 3rd party stuff generally.

   http://www.amazon.co.uk/PowerA-Mini-Elite-Wireless-Controller/dp/B005761BGO/ref=sr_1_6?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1332866233&sr=1-6

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Ireland Michael
   Moderator

   You must have ridiculously small hands.

   Funnily enough, my biggest problem with the Mega Drive controllers was the fact they were so small. And my hands are pretty average sized for a guy - my wife's aren't much smaller.

   Honestly, I hate most retro controller. I disliked most of them even back when they were new. They were just so ergonomically poor in design. The Dreamcast controller and the ways the handles shaped to your hand was like a divine revelation for me. Never looked back since.

   Now the original Xbox controller... there's an oversized one for you. I randomly stumble across mine from time to time and I'm still amazed at how ridiculously huge it is.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   I think OG would find this thread amusing.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. silkvg247
   Member

   @Ireland - I gave you my measurements! I don't know how 17.5cm span holds up compared to others but yes they are small. :)

   The dreamcast was the first controller I had real difficulty using. :/

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   There are millions of 'small handed', FPS playing kids who don't seem to have the problem.

   Maybe you're just not as dexterous as you think.

   In any case, it's one thing having bad aim, and another struggling with a game on easy.

   For a clear example, there are probably at least tens of thousands of young kids (including girls) who quickscope in CoD.

   This involves moving/strafing with the left analogue stick, turning/aiming with the right analogue stick, zooming by pressing the left trigger, 'holding your breath'(for a steadier shot) by also clicking the left analogue stick and shooting using the right trigger. All within the space of a fraction of a second.

   And they do this for hours on end.

   In any case, oversteering and overaiming is nothing to do with stretching and everything to do with timing.

   It's about getting precise movements locked into muscle memory and then letting your brain select the right movement at the right time.

   Or in other words... Practice.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Gekidami
   Member

   Maybe you should take up knitting instead?

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Aimless
    Member

    It would be interesting to see how you're holding the controller. Whilst I'm not volunteering, I'm pretty sure you could shave a good couple of centimetres off all my digits and I'd still be able to operate a DualShock without issue. Bar the pain and blood, anyway.

    Stick manipulation is a skill, something that improves over time; my first attempt at getting to grips with dual analogue FPS control had me spending most of the match alternating between looking at the floor and ceiling. Regardless, your hands shouldn't be hurting — nor should you really have much cause to be stretching your digits — which is what suggests to me you aren't holding the controller in an optimal fashion.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. silkvg247
    Member

    @ G1gahurtz - I've been gaming for over 20 years and don't think practise is the issue. ;)

    I have no problem with any game of any skill level on PC.

    In the days of the megadrive I completed so called "hard" games on "hard" mode without losing a life. Hellfire springs to mind. If it'd used analogue sticks I doubt I could have completed it on easy. The reason Infamous becomes a challenge even on easy is because the game has fully manual aiming and requires a great degree of precision on any difficulty level.

    I do suffer from RSI but not sure that is relevant or related. I just wish I had a comfortable grip, something I do not. Also from the screen below you may notice I have short thumbs, I think this is also a factor given you need your thumbs to reach the analogue sticks, mine only half reach. To use a thumbstick accurately you need it to be under the "pad" of your thumb. Mine doesn't reach that far so I'm using my thumb tip.

    So whilst we could turn this into an argument about how I lack skill or dexterity, I'd rather we didn't, for if either of those truly were the issue then I'd be equally unskilled on any platform and with any controller.

    @Aimless I'm holding it as shown in pic. And yes those are my PJ's. ;)

    http://i.imgur.com/ogZc2.jpg?1

    Can't see any other way to do it. It does feel like my hands are barely big enough; most of the time I can feel my tendons over-stretching especially on certain thumbstick/shoulder button combos. Ironically using the D-pad feels completely comfortable; shame no games use it.

    Also to compare, I hold it like this guy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lEWSyR467E&feature=player_embedded

    But if you look you can see his grip is far more comfortable. His trigger fingers completly cover the triggers where I'm just about reaching them with my tips. His thumb is large enough to reach all buttons easilly and his span is wide enough that he isn't stretched at all to get his thumbs above the sticks.

    He only has one finger on the shoulder buttons whereas I use both; I find it nigh on impossible to use the controller any other way.

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. LOLshock94
    Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9K18CGEeiI&feature=channel

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. silkvg247
    Member

    @LOLshock I disagree. Also that vid made my actual dogs growl.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Aimless
    Member

    There doesn't seem to be anything too non-standard with your grip — at least there aren't any elbows or knees involved — but I'll throw out a few tips based on my own experience.

    My first suggestion would be to just use your index fingers for both sets of shoulder buttons, allowing your middle digits to brace the controller from underneath. The vast majority of the time you won't have a need to, say, operate both L1 and L2 at the same time, and if the occasion does arise I find it's easy enough to switch in a middle finger for a moment.

    On a somewhat related note, for a firm grip I place pressure on the sides of the controller — you'd probably want to try it at around the height of the O button — using the base joint of my index fingers. It's hard to do this if you're dedicating a finger to each shoulder button as you have to rely on the tips of the prongs fitting snugly in your palm which would be harder for smaller hands. Applying pressure to the sides as above I can maintain a pretty firm grip even if I remove my ring and little fingers from the controller entirely, although naturally they help.

    This one's harder to explain, but I've noticed a lot of people push or drag the DualShock's analogues when you really want more of a rolling motion using your thumb pads. In other words your thumb isn't always in contact with the stick the same way, playing into the convex nature of the tips. This is a pretty subtle difference and one that's hard to put in writing, and for all I know you're already doing it.

    Ultimately your hands don't look that mismatched to me and I think adjusting your grip could help things be a lot more comfortable. As is I suspect dedicating four fingers to the shoulder buttons is the primary issue, because if your hands aren't large enough to naturally brace the prongs properly your grip will tend to be unduly tense to compensate, which could explain some of the pain you're experiencing after extended play. Even if none of my suggestions are useful, though, I'd at least recommend experimenting with different ways to hold the device and see what's most comfortable.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. G1GAHURTZ
    Member

    So whilst we could turn this into an argument about how I lack skill or dexterity, I'd rather we didn't, for if either of those truly were the issue then I'd be equally unskilled on any platform and with any controller.

    Not really. It may not me the case that you lack dexterity in general. I'm just hypothesising that there is a limit to how dexterous you are. For example, Megadrive games only require the use of a maximum of 3 buttons and a D-pad, whereas modern games often require the simultaneous use of buttons from a selection of up to eight, as well as two thumb-sticks (including their click down buttons) and a D-pad.

    In any case, how do you explain the millions of CoD/Halo kids, with hands smaller than yours, who don't seem to have a problem playing for hours on end?

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. silkvg247
    Member

    @ G1G I don't know, but I can tell you for sure the controls don't fit my hand. Point in case last night my whole arm was throbbing after a gaming session, it's sore today too (as well as my left pinky).

    Number of buttons can't be the cause - I play FPS and MMO's with far, far more buttons than any gamepad. I use RDFG for moment so that I can access more surrounding keys (QWETYASHZV) as well as the number keys 1-0 and a mouse with 7 buttons. I don't struggle to remember buttons or press the right ones at the right time - not mentally anyway, but when physically it causes pain, then yeah, I have a problem.

    I'd like you to measure your index finger and hand span - mine are 6.5cm and 17.5cm respectively. That's small, most "kids" would probably have bigger.

    @Aimless - I tried using three fingers for grip and one for shoulder and it hurts even more, hard to explain but the tension between my stretched index finger and curved middle finger is too tight. Even fully stretched my index fingers are still too short to get on top of the shoulder buttons, so I'm using my tips. And I know what you mean about thumb pads but it's physically impossible to roll them under my thumb pad, because my thumbs are not long enough to get the stick completely under them. I'm using tips for buttons and pads.

    After the quote literal pain I had last night I am thinking try a smaller controller even if it's an ikky third party one.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. Gama_888
    Member

    I heard a long time ago that the Japanese dualshocks are smaller, beacuse on average there hands are smaller too.
    Not 100% sure if this is true. google it?

    if so you could try ordering one of them see if it helps.

    Or trade your ps3 for a Vita, remember when i tried it out in Game and thinking the buttons and analogues were crazy small

    But in all honesty, if your struggling with Infamous on Easy setting, your doing something wrong :P

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. DSB
    Member

    That sounds pretty serious. Maybe you have hand cancer.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. silkvg247
    Member

    @Gama - If it had a mouse keyboard interface I'd complete on hardest without breaking a sweat. The game difficulty isn't my battle, the controls are. :p

    I did google japanese controllers a while ago but couldn't find any solid facts about it; other than they will work on UK consoles and come in nicer colours.

    @DSB That's a bit mean! :p

    I've decided going to get the "PowerA Mini Pro Elite Wireless Controller"

    Can't hurt to try, right? Just wish I had some "offical" options. Grumble.

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. DSB
    Member

    It's mean because I'm kidding. It's not hand cancer, it's probably just basically fucked up hands :p

    It does sound pretty serious if your muscles are cramping up after a few hours. I mean the worst that happens to me is my finger joints get pretty stiff. Doing a bit of stretching gets them going again. That especially happens when I play something like Super Meat Boy and I'm really straining to get millisecond precision.

    Are you pretty excitable when you game?

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. silkvg247
    Member

    I'm only excitable when getting increasingly wound up at feeling handicapped. Other than that quite a calm gamer. The pain is only there because I'm having to stretch my fingers and thumbs beyond comfortable span.

    Stretch out your fingers as far as they'll go and then form a shape like you'd form on a giant version of a pad, and with fully tense/tight fingers pretend you are doing shoulder button presses etc.. then you'll get the idea of what gaming is like for me on a standard pad. It's not quite that bad, but I'm just trying to demonstrate how over stretching can cause discomfort and eventually pain (without anything being "wrong" as such).

    My new smaller pad is on the way. I'll report back. :)

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. DSB
    Member

    I just have trouble understanding that though.

    I have a 6 year old nephew, and while I'm sure he's bigger than you in every way (because you're obviously a smurf and all) he still has quite small hands.

    He has no problem playing Renegade Ops with me for an hour, and I don't think his hands are hurting from it :P

    And that's using a 360 controller. The dualshocks are smaller no? It just sounds like it might be a medical problem.

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. silkvg247
    Member

    I think the 360 one is easier to use tbh! Be intersting to see how he'd fare on a dual shock.

    The one I've ordered is not only smaller but also a 360 layout, so I have high hopes.

    As for a medical issue, firstly OI I'M NOT A SMURF. Secondly I have officially been diagnosed as an RSI sufferer but RSI is something I beat by finding comfy and small peripherals; I've not had it for years since getting my ideal mouse and keyboard.

    The control pads are oversized for small hands, and even if your son is already a gaming God I guarantee you he'd do even better if his hands properly fit. I guess what makes it different is the pain I get from it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. DSB
    Member

    Nephew :p

    RSI could well be the culprit though. As I understand it, part of the cause for it is poor support for your lower arm. A lot of people fail to support their arms at all when using gamepads, and that's a real easy way to weaken that whole structure over time.

    The more you have in terms of support for your wrist and something like armrests on your chair providing support for the rest of your arm, the less likely you are to get it.

    Then again, I'm not a smurf doctor, so I don't really know how it works for your people.

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. G1GAHURTZ
    Member

    Daisy smurf?

    Is that you?

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. silkvg247
    Member

    You're all such bullies :p

    .. I'm gonna be stuck with the smurf thing for the rest of my VG247 life now, aren't I :/

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. freedoms_stain
    Moderator

    To me a "Smurf" is a non-squaddie team mate in BF3, which you have actually been to me a couple of times Silk :-P

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. DSB
    Member

    I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't see any smurf why you'd be smurfed as a smurf for the rest of your VG247 smurf.

    We're really above that sort of thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. fearmonkey
    Member

    @silk - I have medium to small hands for a guy and never felt comfortable with the PS controllers with the dual stick. I found the 360 controller to be the best i have ever felt for my hands though, no cramping ever really. My hands do have a wide palm for their size so that may be the key difference in my case.
    I would bet that someone out there makes a variant of these controllers that would work better. I wish someone would make a Spaceorb type of controller for the currentl consoles, then it wouldnt matter with the sticks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P3_SYV2zEE

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. silkvg247
    Member

    @fearmonkey That orb thing looks weird! I was thinking more along the lines of mini trackballs instead of analogue sticks would be the way forwards, but they'd have to be removable due to dirt issues.

    I completed Infamous (as an evil Cole, muahaha) and despite frustrations it was a good game. I'm onto the second one now, which apparently supports move, so I'm charging that baby up and looking forwards to a fairer playing field.

    Also I can't beleive how much in-game graphics improve over time, comparing Infamous 1 to 2 is literally like a console generation leap.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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