Very interesting. Is this for real? I'm just a gamer, not a programmer. Thoughts?
Polygons vs Atoms - Future of gaming graphics?(17 posts)
Notch says its a scam and John Carmack said it wouldn't be available for several years and the production will be a huge challenge.
These "atoms" are just voxels.
Voxels are old technology.
Yeah they are being used now the issue is with Voxels you can't use them for animation at least not in the sense of Polygons. Carmack said the ID Tech 6 will use them but not in this manner just with stuff that doesn't have any animation like props or backgrounds.
Cool, thanks guys. Seemed a little too good to be true.
Hey everyone, I'm a long time lurker around here. The flak that these guys have been catching for the way they are hyping their product has gotten to me, and I felt compelled to respond.
Notch and Carmack are undoubtedly genius at what they do, but just because they don't know how to do it doesn't mean no one can. Of course, I'm not an expert by any measure. Until these guys come out with their SDK with advanced lighting and animation tools, I say cut them some slack.
While voxels are older tech, the processing and optimizations are obviously getting better. Who knows, the folks at Euclideon may have found a whole new way to do things. Something akin to the advent of back face culling or the mega textures in RAGE (I don't remember what they were calling that bit).
If taken at their word you have to admit that the tech looks amazing. A healthy skepticism isn't a bad thing, but calling it an out and out scam is a bit harsh. Especially when these people are playing it so close to the vest.
I, for one, am excited at the prospect, but if it turns into vaporware...well, no worries, we still have genius devs like Naughty Dog and Carmack and DICE, who will churn out incredible gaming experiences regardless of the graphic limitations. No need to slam Euclideon for trying to build interest and maybe a little hype. If I remember correctly, Erth was ranting about the wonder of voxels a while back as well, maybe he's a prophet? ;)
THats fine but Carmack is the one that has been using them in their game (Rage) and if he says they hard to work with they I would believe him over a company looking for investors scamming people int to thinking they are "atoms" when they are infact Voxels. Notch also has insight on the tech and if you read the article you would see why this would be practically impossible maybe in 10 years but it won't be next gen. These people are just trying to make a buck with their "new tech".
Carmack is always the one driving the industry with their tech, he is the one that initiallised bump maps, shadows, mega textures and will be using hybrid voxel with polygons with ID tech 6. If you watch the video notice they don't mention the tech or the process power needed or show you gameplay or any of the sort. All the items and the island are stills. THis is also the same exact video they had shown a year prior nothing new. 2+2 = 4.
There are plenty of videos on Voxels this company is not the first one.
I'm fully aware that Carmack is a programming pimp, no need to sing his praises. I just thought it might be worth it to acknowledge that others might be able to accomplish more, in this very narrow subset of rendering technology, than he can because of a different approach.
They did mention that they had 20 frames per second 'in software' in the video above, and that they were rapidly making headway and improvements. If that was, in fact, a real time display of a ridiculous amount of voxels running smoothly from any sort of computer it's still pretty impressive.
Isn't it possible that the new tech isn't the voxel, but the way they process the voxel? Sure, they call it an atom, but who cares? A rose by any other name, right?
To call on Euclideon's own comparison...How many people thought Google was really going to be able to serve up billions of hits on a web search in an instant's time?
I hope they get it working.
Lets look at this they claim that the software renders where the camer looks alright now people have crunched the numbers for the points because every byte is tied to another and it came to needing 690 Petabytes just for the island itself. than you would need 6 terbytes just for ram to render a scene at maximum of 20 FPS. Then you need the lighting and the video doesn't show but there is no animation that is also taxing the system. Even if they found a special way to compress data of this technology. Compression is a huge hog on the processor and with something of this size, it would destroy the system. They are the ones making the claim, they should offer proof. Any moron can create a youtube video and a dead site. They also don't offer the amount of processing, gpu and ram needed to pull off those 20 FPS it they could be running a render farm like Pixar has. They should have just held their tongue and waited yuntil their tech is done then prove everyone wrong and thats why this stinks like someone trying look for a payday.
They make the claim in an earlier video that they only need to process and render for each pixel on the screen, not the whole scene. I wonder what sort of dodgy math they use to pull that off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSvptZCJGyI something like 6 minutes in.
If they can make it work, with proper animation and lighting and physics...they deserve that payday. :D
They won't be able to there are multiple threads and people with Masters in COmputer science expalining how using Voxels and that amount within just what the player sees actually needs like I said 6 terabytes of ram just to render the shit on screen. The only other option is to tie it with the cloud system so the data centers can do the work and not the user computers.
@Mojo, this is true.
Nvidia have been creating ray-tracing tech since 2006, Expect games in a few years to impliment this.
Carmack and most of the industry has already said that we still have a long way to go before we can use raytracing. Maybe in 10 years but it definetly won't be next gen.
@Phoenixblight, Look man, you can't go around flaming things because of another person's assumption, guys like Carmack may be geniuses but that doesn't mean that they can predict every innovation. Unless you know exactly how this tech works, I would hold my criticisms if I were you.
I'm personally waiting for a real world example of their tech, something akin to Unreal's Samaritan tech demo would do.
Of course Raytracing capabilities will be used only next-next gen if consoles will still exist.
Raytraciing requires significant CPU power. While current gen PC's can do great job with the image, 3D image or Scorched3D, it's pretty bad in motion. Thats it for now.
Consoles always stopped innovation and revolution in physics, graphics and engine tools... but it was not a problem in 5th 6th generation of consoles until now.
I hope that someone, somehow will find a method to return great profit for PC standalone games (not just indies or MMO's), so it can be like in 5th-6th generations of consoles where PC hardware was used in full potential while consoles had games that PC had like 5-7 years ago in terms of capabilities.
What ID software made with RAGE on 360 or PS3 (with less memory, worse graphics card and slow blu ray) is absolutely incredible. 60 FPS with such graphics...
every game sucks ass with capabilities compared to RAGE Id TECH 5 techniques.
I hope that ID will release Ultra graphics pack for PC soon after the RAGe's release. They promised.
WHy should I hold my criticisms every single expert I have spoke to about this tech and other techs in general have agreed on the same thing. We don't have the tech to yet support raytracing or volex to the level of Polygons. Volex can be used for props and environments but they can do shit for animation not unless you like Minecraft type graphics in your game. ANd like Erth has said we are not yet to the level with raytracing to do it in real time we don't yet have the power to push it atleast to where its availiable to the public. ANd Yes I can believe Carmack he is always the one pushing the industry. Like Erth said with ID Tech 5 they found a way to make a single Mega texture and throw it on a large area where the industry just uses tiling method. SO yes I will believe Carmack over anyone else. Especially some people that throw out a youtube video and claiming they can do it differently to everyone else. Its not that hard to doctor up a video and throw it on there and claim that its easy to do. Like I said no one mention of the processing power of this tech in the video. for all we know they are running on a rendering farm like Pixar.
I can make all the speculation I want. This company with unlimited detail is the one that has to prove the entire industry even Nvidia and ATI that they have something different.
You must log in to post.