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Osama Bin Laden

(27 posts)

Started 1 year ago by DSB
Latest reply from DSB

DSB
Member

Att DaMan:

I think it's ridiculous that they aren't releasing the photos, but it's established that they exist by politicians on both sides of the aisle. The simple answer is that Osama Bin Laden was struck just above the eye and the exit wound caused his skull to fail, meaning that he only had half a head left, with more than a considerable ammount of brainmatter showing.

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but like anyone else on the internet I've seen my share of severely battered corpses, and it's not like he would be easily recognizable to anyone who didn't realize that heads deform quite drastically when they're subjected to that kind of trauma.

Clearly US politicians have made the call that releasing pictures of corpses in that state is not very clever. I think they're wrong, and I think people deserve to see, even if it's gory. If you look at the killing of Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, they quite obviously held off showing the picture of him dead until they had evaluated whether it was responsible to do so or not. Judging from the pictures, he had died from the shockwave of the bomb, rather than shrapnel, which meant that his face was completely intact.

Al Qaeda have no stake in losing Osama Bin Laden. None. He's the face of the organisation to the world, and he's famous for having cheated the entire US military out of catching him on several occasions. He was Robin Hood to the fanatical islamists of the world, and they had no interest in seeing him die. He was consistently drumming up support for his organisation through audio messages, so it's safe to say that Al Qaeda had no interest in having him cease his operations.

By all accounts right now they're struggling to introduce a new leader, which certainly wouldn't be the case if he had been dead a long time. Surely, they would've planned ahead.

Al Qaeda has never needed reasons to justify new attacks, that's your very own assumption. They didn't justify their attacks in Kenya and Tanzania, they didn't justify their attacks on New York. They didn't pretend like Osama was dead to justify their biggest wholesale slaughter of innocents (which was also their biggest slaughter of innocent muslims) on 9-11, in spite of the US having tried to kill him on several occasions, so why on earth would they feel the need to do so now? It doesn't add up to what we know. If you believe that you're fighting a Holy War, and God wants you to kill yourself in his honor, why on earth would you ever need a reason beyond that, let alone one tied to a mere mortal?

The leap of faith that anyone is required to take in order to believe what you're suggesting is more than slight. It's huge. It defies history and the known capabilities of intelligence, government and military, as well as Al Qaeda itself.

Certainly though, since the CIA has shown themselves incapable of hiding every major political conspiracy that they've been a part of to date, it's definitely assured that this would come to light if it was in fact faked. Personally, given the evidence that has already been offered, I think it would've been revealed within a week if they had tried.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

I don't know about them not wanting to reveal the gory photos, but I'm stating that no kind of evidence whatsoever being released is odd. It strikes me as way more odd that nothing from anyone at any point in the chain of events, be it team seals or outside people gets leaked.

@
'Al Qaeda have no stake in losing Osama Bin Laden.'

'Al Qaeda doesn't need to justify new attacks, that's your very own assumption. '

'If you believe that you're fighting a Holy War, and God wants you to kill yourself in his honor, why on earth would you ever need a reason beyond that, let alone one tied to a mere mortal?'
-------------------

That's not what I'm saying. If he died quite some time ago, and it became known to americans, then why would Al Qaeda try and defy that. And surely agreeing to that he was assassinated is of purpose to them, you don't agree with such a way of stimulating, really? Would it be better if everyone just thought the old man died by himself (it also answers your last sentence).

Also, that's totally true but you 're a tad bit overdoing it with the last one though, that 's not necessary. The topic is about terrorists.

You must really have a different attitude. It takes zero faith to point out oddly absent leaks and quick burial at sea. as well as the practically perfect timing.

I don't think so, you bring up historical evidence from various points in time at various regimes. Under various circumstances.

Also, no it's not easy to replace a person like that. Planned in advance or not, they might have quite trouble with that.

Posted 1 year ago #
Erthazus
Member

My 5 cents on this.

I agree with DaMan about everything he said. Sorry DSB. It's the same thing like with Dominique Strauss-Kahn that was arrested in New York City and charged with the sexual assault of a housekeeper who entered his Sofitel hotel suite. Bullshit at the highest level.

Look, Osama Bin Laden was just a Central Intelligence Agency project. Americans opened it and closed it at the right time. That project was closed at the perfect time for the Obama's future presidential election. It was just a typical CIA shitstorm.

Fact is that there is no evidence at all. It's a fact and a very strong argument.

If we are going back to the Russia just for example. Shamil Salmanovich Basayev was killed in Chechnya and he was a Russian number one terrorist since the First Chechen War in 1994-1995.

In 2006 he was killed in a targeted killing by the FSB and there were photos of his death with a lot of other interesting stuff. It's over now and no one from Caucasian people is apeshit after these photos (and their religion is strong as Arabian), + considering that Russia have a much higher risk to be attacked by terrorists then USA. It happens every year in Moscow because terrorists in Caucasian territories are still live there and Doku Umarov is still alive.

Back to Bin Laden... It's just no one believe this story anymore. Basically Obama's death is a huge rumor or just a great story for the next X-Files movie or Call Of Duty game.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

@DaMan - The stimulus of a dead leader is temporary. The shock subsides. There's no point in trading a temporary source of propaganda and attention, for a continuous source of it. Especially if that source continues to embaress the west, and serves to mock their inability to stop it. With Osama Bin Laden alive, he could continue to invigorate his base through his audio tapes, heard around the world, which is yet another thing you're leaving out of the equasion.

Audio recognition software is highly advanced and has a relatively small margin of error. Osama Bin Laden has released several tapes and videos, and certainly more than enough to ensure that every intelligence agency in the known world has his acoustic characteristics down. Even if the CIA would try to tell the world that it was Bin Laden, when it wasn't, any other intelligence agency, from pretty much any even slightly developed nation would be more than capable of calling their bluff.

The fact that he has continued to comment on current events long after his "death" would mean that Al Qaeda has either managed to tell the future, or raise a man from the grave. Either that, or this supposed conspiracy of the man on the tapes, not matching the man on the videos, isn't limited to the CIA, but every moderately equipped intelligence service from Argentina to Beijing. A worldwide conspiracy, across every ethnic, cultural and political affiliation.

The idea that Al Qaeda would simply use his death to hand the US their greatest victory against Al Qaeda to date, if they had any sort of say in the matter, is simply stupid. They have zero motivation to do so. If they know it's not true, that means they have his "real" corpse, and if that's the case, then why not show it to the entire world media and expose the US in their biggest conspiracy to date?

There's plenty of evidence from the raid. Pictures and identities of the corpses taken by the ISI have been released to the public, for anyones verification, and the fact that the man who's supposed to be Osama Bin Ladens courier was Kuwaiti born, means that Pakistani intelligence services will most definitely have known about him.

Also, while Osama Bin Ladens body was removed from the compound, his blood was almost certainly not. In all likelihood there will have been brain matter left as well, which means that Pakistani intelligence would quite easily have been able to determine whether the corpse in question was Osama Bin Laden or not.

The fact that the Pakistani intelligence services are famous for being in league with Islamic fundamentalists, and actively working against the US, perhaps even in violation of their orders, means that there's simply no way they wouldn't release their information if they had knowledge that it wasn't Osama Bin Laden.

It's also worth considering that even if you believe that the CIA could sit on a bombshell like that, which historically they certainly can't, the ISI would be far less likely to do so, beyond lacking any sort of motivation.

It also wouldn't make sense to use a military unit if you were instigating a global conspiracy, since most of the US intelligence services have their own tactical operators, CIAs SOG and SAD operators being the most famous along with the FBIs HRT. They're likely subjected to a far higher degree of security screening, training and intelligence doctrine, whereas "mere" special forces are essentially just soldiers that have been trained to an extremely high standard. They aren't intelligence, they're military, and I would consider that a liability in a global conspiracy. Especially when perfectly viable tactical assets are available from the intelligence community.

Ultimately you can choose to disregard all of that and believe what you want, but I feel like I've gone out of my way to distinguish the knowns from the unknowns. Nobody's saying that there's any kind of definitive proof, the politicians are withholding that, but the fact that it hasn't been disproven with all the numerous ways that something like that could happen, with the thousands of people who would have an excellent opportunity to call the bluff, including the Pakistanis, Al Qaeda, US officials, US intelligence agents, Republicans, Democrats, military personnel, former presidents, former intelligence officials, moderately funded intelligence services worldwide, and the remaining Bin Ladens (who eventually will include his youngest wife once she's released) very very strongly indicates that the released account is the correct one.

If you honestly believe that all of those players can work together in covering up an event that the vast majority of them have no interest in covering up, simply to please the American public in the face of an already popular military withdrawal, then I salute you.

I'm not even going to comment on Erthazus. The mujahedeen, Taliban and Al Qaeda are three completely different groups which operated independently from one another. The idea that the US somehow invented Islamic fundamentalism because.... Errr... Yeah. It's just too mindnumbingly stupid to waste time on. Tinfoil hats ahoy.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Compared to a bigger picture, temporary, yes. Although, a figure of such a magnitude among terrorists as him would make quite a long lasting effect.

He died a martyr. that's what Al Qaeda announced. And it only makes them hate US more now.

Really, recordings? You're saying that you can say for certain when it was recorded?? You 're basically saying that a person who's been hiding for years, the terrorist number one, who was underground for such a long time was alive *for certain*. Fair enough, you choose to think that way, I choose to think otherwise (given these events).

No they didn't raise anyone from the grave, releasing a video or two once in a while isn't that hard if they were prerecorded. Syncing video with the track isn't either. When was the last video of him? How much time did pass between the videos? Was every single one perfectly genuine? Seriously, there just far too many things left to claim something with such certainty as you seem to imply.

Seriously, do you work for any agency? No I assume. there were numerous contradictory reports during the years, nobody knew for certain where he is, and is he even alive. there was even a report or two where he was supposedly taken out at some points in time. And you 're telling me here, on a gaming website that you can claim for sure he's been alive. Reverse conspiracy, don't you think?..

No, not the raid, yeah I've read the helicopter one. I can also read those news sites . I'm talking some sort of leaked photo or something depicting some scene of his death. There's none. I'm not asking for a full video exactly like with Saddam Hussein, but something must've been dropped.

His corpse was buried a few years ago,

If he's dead, and I do think he is, both Al Qaeda and Pakistani are interested in agreeing to the successful american raid claims, for terrorists he died a martyr, Pakistani have even more reason to claim that US should withdraw from there.

Regarding Pakistani intelligence, don't you think they must be a tad bit worse equipped than their american counterparts? Much like their army don't have nearly as capable helicopters?

Terrorist are stimulated by the martyr, Americans gtfo, Obama's administration gets a boost. All three are happy. Otherwise neither gain anything from stating the guy died by himself.

I do think they fabricated it. Which is why they claim the body was dumped in the sea, really, what better way of destroying the biggest er, factual evidence.

Also, after the supposed raid took place, there were claims that it's been translated in real time to White house, later it turned out false. There were also very contradictory claims by other bin Ladens and US officials. Seriously, you're going way too far. First they said he was shot to death because he was holding a gun and refused to being taken alive. Then some little girl (one of his relatives) claimed he was shot before her eyes with no weapon. First they said he was hiding behind his wife, then it became known he wasn't. Give me a break. It doesn't point to everything being genuine nearly as well.

Anyway though, if you sincerely say this to convince me, well then I get what you're saying DSB. Thanks, I just disagree , at least for the time being. Like I said, i'm not excited, i'm just baffled by the things I mentioned. At most, I could agree that he just died not that long ago, but not from the raid. Because from my view everything points to that.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

So the Pakistanis want the US to withdraw, when they're already withdrawing, and Al Qaeda want people to hate the Americans, when their people already hate them? And Obama figures he'll spice up an already popular withdrawal with a global conspiracy, just to ensure his reelection - And the Republicans help him do it?

And to top it off, both the Pakistanis and Al Qaeda go out of their way to help them cover up the most public conspiracy ever thought up, and save the US the unprecedented embarrassment of revealing the truth to the world?

Well, I can't argue against that, because it simply doesn't make any sense.

The Bin Laden recordings contained specific mentions of current events, to ensure everyone that they weren't pre-recorded. They could in no way have been pre-recorded, unless he was capable of telling the future in stunning detail.

You don't need the worlds greatest intelligence agency to do a DNA test. Nor to verify an audio track. Which is all that would be needed to prove this supposed conspiracy beyond any reasonable doubt.

I don't have to be certain of whether they're genuine or not, you have the worlds collective intelligence agencies making sure they are. And if they're all lying, then you're talking about a global conspiracy, again, disregarding every ethnic, cultural and political affiliation.

I don't believe in any kind of conspiracy unless someone can provide verifiable proof. In this case, the only supposed proof of a conspiracy, is that the US hasn't released a photo of a guy with his head blown off, which serves to prove absolutely nothing.

I prefer to base any assumption or conjecture on what we actually know, not what I'd rather believe.

Personally I think the truth tends to be a lot more interesting than crazy theories based on peoples paranoias or boredoms. An airborne assault in hostile territory is not a simple discipline.

Even if it can't compete with a sinister US-terrorist alliance.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Pakistanis have an ultimate reason (they also don't have to cooperate any further, nothing), Al Qaeda makes the most out of the death of the guy, and Obama gets a boost. That's what i said.

Again though, if he 's dead it's better for them to state he died this way.

You haven't stated any facts though, you claim the blood wasn't removed, you claim all the videos released through the years were proved completely genuine. I don't think you could state that with being that accurate. The audio in recordings could be synced with the video, you claim each and every one of them released over the internet was 100 % verified. Can you say when the last one was released, and what exactly did he state there? Also, that's as far as it goes with any evidence, that part might be actually true, like I said he might've died not that long ago.

Collective agencies, really? So the moment team seal took him out every one of them from Argentina to Kremlin sent their people and verified everything, as well as the dna test was done by each and every one of them. Sorta like Metacritic. Americans claim they did it. Seriously, saying that it was verified by the dna test isn't exactly the best proof, but dumping the body in the sea isn't the way of getting rid of the body if you aren't trying to cover anything up. After the events took place the whole structure was secured, and noone except american and probably pakistani agencies was there for a while. Seriously, you just believe what you find the most appealing.

The three sources we actually have that state the same are Us, Pakistani and Al Qaeda. And the three make use of the events as much as they can.

You don't provide proof either. There's no paranoia or boredom in questioning the events that took place, when you claim you 've liquidated terrorist number one, saying you drowned his dead body and providing zero evidence is telling. That's it really, if it didn't look that fishy nobody would question it, there's nothing i made up, I 'm just pointing out things and raise a few rather obvious questions.

There's no conspiracies involved in questioning, conspiracy would be if I started talking theoretically who's really who or how Al Qaeda was formed, or claim that the guy is still alive living in New Zealand. The motives I mention are obvious, when you loose the person you have to make the most out of their death, that's what everyone does with 'prominent' figures.

After the raid took place, they first stated the helicopter was taken out by bin Laden's security, then it was stated there was practically none at all and it was a malfunction. Like I said the other bin Ladens' comments reportedly were different from the ones the officials 've made. You don't have any sources outside of the same ones everyone can use, what 's happened does look fishy, a lot. You just choose to view it from an angle you find the most appealing.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

The fact that the blood wasn't removed is confirmed by the ISI videotape from inside the compound.

You keep claiming that none of this is fact, but you offer absolutely no reason for why it wouldn't be. So how is none of what I've said fact? Because you propose to know what the Pakistani intelligence community and Al Qaeda are thinking? Are you members of either group? Have you done anything to study them beyond watching CNN or watching a documentary on National Geographic?

I've actually taken a good hard look at this, whereas you simply think that something is true and try to make everything else fit that foregone conclusion. If you had sat down and studied anything in terms of intelligence, warfare or terrorism, or actually seen the photos and videotape, all of what I'm telling you here would really be quite self-evident.

I never said that DNA could be verified by any intelligence service, I said his voice could quite easily be verified by any one of them. And by quite a few independent civilians, as well. The Pakistanis have DNA collected from his compound. Given the fact that his sons were killed in the raid, it wouldn't be hard to test them for daddy's DNA. If indeed Osama Bin Laden died beforehand, then Al Qaeda would have access to his corpse, and would easily be able to provide the world with DNA samples from that corpse, to blow the conspiracy wide open and make the US suffer their greatest and most public humiliation in history.

Those are all factors that would go a long way to explain why the US wouldn't find it neccesary to release an actual picture. With the ammount of concrete and circumstancial evidence to his death, and the fact that several of their enemies would be in a unique position to expose them if they tried to hide anything, means that any halfway sound individual would have to err on the side of reason and take their word for it.

In terms of Bin Laden contemporary markers, here are just a few examples:

June 30, 2006: Praises Zarqawi for his increasingly effective attacks in Iraq
June 3, 2009: Mentions Barack Obama
October 1, 2010: Comments on flooding in Pakistan
May 19, 2011: Mentions revolutions across the middle-east, widely thought to benefit Islamic extremists

This is what I was saying to begin with. If you actually take the time to study events, conspiracy theories simply don't hold up. Generally speaking, people who want you to "believe" are fully dependent on you not wanting to learn.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Quote:

' Reuters) - Photographs acquired by Reuters and taken about an hour after the U.S. assault on Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad in Pakistan show three dead men lying in pools of blood, but no weapons.

The photos, taken by a Pakistani security official who entered the compound after the early morning raid on Monday, show two men dressed in traditional Pakistani garb and one in a t-shirt, with blood streaming from their ears, noses and mouths.

The official, who wished to remain anonymous, sold the pictures to Reuters.

None of the men looked like bin Laden. U.S. President Barack Obama decided not to release photos of his body because it could have incited violence and used as an al Qaeda propaganda tool. '

This one?

It's missing one little thing, the blood of *bin Laden*. This is how what you say isn't a fact. Because you're yet to reference any facts on the guy. You do nothing but assume based on shallow evidence. Whilst ignoring bloody ridiculous things.

Again, enough with the side arguments.

I'm not stating what I say is a fact. What you say isn't. You use the same sources, and have zero factual evidence when it comes to bin Laden himself. No amount of your speculating about so called historical evidence and attempts at logic changes that. You do not know. You read the same internet sources.

The DNA tests are what CIA claim they did. Keyword claim.

Greatest embarassment? To make everyone later find out their leader died on his own? Again, Al Qaeda would gain zero from everyone finding out he died by himself,

What is it with the May 19 2011 one? The raid supposedly took place on May 2, I guess you mean the date it was released. Once more, that's as far as any real evidence goes. He might 've died a few months before, I'll give you that.

Incidentally, there was a poll taken in urban areas of pakistan. More than 60 percent of respondents said they don't think bin laden was among persons killed in the supposed raid. Urban, not rural areas. they also do think he was a terrorist, as opposed to Robin Hood.

One: You don't dump the body of terrorist number one in the sea. You don't have to 'believe' in anything to point something as ridiculous as that. why not give the corpse to his relatives?

Two: You don't take out terrorist number one without a leak from someone at one point.

Any 'half sound individual' would question that. Sorry, this isn't just a guy taken out by a cop. this isn;t moon landing. This isn't Che. This isn't Kennedy. The body got rid of, and the evidence is zero. It's odd when you aren't skeptical about something alike. No amount of walls of text changes that. No amount of your historical research changes that

There's nothing actually proving the guy died in the raid. that's what I'm saying. Nothing. Aside from the claims. If you don't have actual facts to back up the claim then hush. You can keep on about raid, reasons, history, whatever. The factual evidence doesn't exist.

Posted 1 year ago #
someguy2
Member

It's times like these that I wish freedom of speech was never incepted. The bastard is dead let's just let him rot in the sea and move on.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

I've been stating the historical and known circumstances of why a cover-up could never happen, or at least have an infinitely small chance of ever succeeding. The idea that a photo not being released means that such a cover-up has succeeded, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is simply foolish.

The fact that you can't accept it because you have a mental link with the ISI and Al Qaeda ultimately means very little compared to actual verifiable circumstances, of which there are many if you look above. You haven't refuted a single thing I've said, beyond simply guessing at what the interests of the ISI or Al Qaeda might be, and you won't be able to until you actually study the facts and the players involved yourself.

The blood is clearly visible in the ISI video, which you're welcome to watch. The area around his bed is practically covered in blood, which any pathologist would tell you would be the case, if someone has suffered severe head trauma. It's been on most major news networks, and I'm sure it's featured on YouTube as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

That's what you think. Giving historical examples of unrelated events at various point in time isn't that helping either. Since the photos and the body itself are pretty much the most telling factors, pointing out a quick disposal of it is quite a natural reaction.

I gave you the motives, again it's apparent they (Al Qaeda) would exploit the fact of his death to the maximum possible extent. your common sense is selective. Pakistani have nothing to loose from agreeing to that, quite the opposite, they have absolutely zero obligations now.

I addressed everything concerning the points I raised, come to think of it you 've actually ignored what I said about contradictory claims from the officials and the relatives, as well as continuously went on with your assumptions based on what you find the most appealing.

I 'm not going to refute side arguments. besides you've stated nothing apart from own speculations. I disagree with your proposed emphasis on certain way of researching the events, history doesn't negate the ridiculous and what you call fishy way of disposing of the body. The blood of whom? if you really think that it's all well and believable then so be it.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. See, if you actually believe something as close to politics as the assassination and death of the most well known terrorist can be simply analyzed based on players and circumstances, then more power to you. You have to actually assume a lot though, as well as take for granted, Even if it's a validated view, it's still isn't exactly a clear view on the events. Something as simple as a leak would be far more beneficial. This isn't just a murder case you know, and without any actual evidence I'm not really into believing that.

Anyway. Probably some time from now we'll have more things to affect our view on this.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

There's plenty of evidence, including the bodies of blood relatives and known associates, and a living, wounded spouse, you're simply choosing not to see it.

There have also been plenty of releases regarding the killing, including videos seized at the compound, clearly showing Osama Bin Laden inside the building, and the now famous porn stash.

Who's blood it is in the compound would be easily determined by a simple DNA test. The ISI would in no way be able to withhold a revelation like that, even if they wanted to. Which they quite clearly do not.

Also the fact that some of the most highranking tactical officers of Al Qaeda and their affiliates are currently being taken out, would more than indicate that actionable intelligence is in US custody, in accordance with what has been reported.

You choose to disregard all of these things, including the simple realities of intelligence work and government procedures, which you haven't even investigated yourself, beyond simply taking an internet conspiracy theory full of nonsensical conjecture, seemingly at face value, based on an unreleased photograph.

It's easy enough to dismiss everything you hear when you essentially remain totally ignorant to what's being discussed. That way reality doesn't get in the way. For people who've actually studied this, it's really not as big of a mystery as you'd like it to appear.

I'm gonna refrain from commenting on the number of glaring inconsistencies I've pointed out so far, that you have completely failed to regard or account for, beyond apparently knowing Pakistans and Al Qaedas internal strategies and priorities, in wanting their leader dead, contributing to the greatest US victory in the war on terror, bringing cheer to the streets of New York, and getting Obama reelected.

I can't keep up with that kind of crazy made up nonsense, I just have a general idea of how far the limits of reality can actually stretch.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Err, i don't choose not to see it, I just choose to look for something closer to the root.

Seriously, Osama inside the building, taken when? You don't know. Porn stash must be the biggest indication of bin Laden, i get you.

You choose to ignore that there was a difference in the statements made by people supposedly involved. The helicopter was first claimed as being taken out by the security, only to later to see a statement it happened cause of a malfunction, and they destroyed it themselves. First there was the wife he's been hiding behind while holding a weapon, then the girl stating he had none and was shot in front of her. But no, keep on researching DSB, dumping the corpse in the sea really pales in comparison to the porn stash.

You did the DNA test? Nope, you 've read they did.

Simple realities, really. I forgot you 're the biggest insider around here. Your own assumptions, only thing you can do is to try and validate those, which you did. There's nothing preventing things from happening in a different way, Nothing. The guy is dead and it's for the best for all the other agencies you claim are so able to disclose the fakes. They might couldn't care less.

Funny really, are you a part of democratic party? Do you work at the White House. No, you read the internets. It's a win for all involved, and the election takes place in 2012, even assuming that they're actually clean two separate parties with zero happening in between, which is rather asinine you have to convince yourself in a lot.

Mysteries? No, bs. Seriously, think you can safely analyze something as dirtied by the politics, so be it. Ultimately, you have nothing but what the internet told you, so really booya. Until you have something better. I choose to be skeptical until something actually more substantial than a porn stash gets out.

Regarding the inconsistences and Obama being reelected - again, if he's dead, that's the best they could come up with. You keep beating that drum too hard. Gets you ignored the whole point to begin with. There's no stretching reality in pointing out a common answer to a possible scenario.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

None of those inconsistencies prove anything. Fog of war is a constant in any military action, as is misinformation, and if you look at major engagements within the last 10 years, there's always been a great deal of uncertainty in preliminary reports. You can't hide the truth, but you can try to make it work for you. That is an essential part of basic military doctrine.

Whether the helicopter failed or was shot down, no one knows, and it does nothing to refute any part of the story. The helicopter was obviously there, it was obviously brought down, and it was obviously destroyed, in accordance with reports.

I haven't read anything about a DNA test, it's just obvious to anyone who has actually studied these things. It's simple, basic, elementary. Common knowledge, common sense.

As I've said from the beginning, you're free to refute any element of anything I say here. Simply show me where I'm talking out of my ass, and making things appear in a certain way simply to suit my own bullshit assessment of what has happened. I do assume quite a few things, but I do so based on actual knowledge, not uninformed guesswork.

This is the core of the entire argument as it started out. I saw a bunch of people talking some gross nosnense on subjects that they clearly hadn't even bothered to investigate for themselves, and I always think that's kind of sad.

I think it's a huge mistake to believe everything you're told rather than allowing yourself to make your own assessment, because quite often politicians will try to sneak things past you, and quite often journalists will make mistakes, and no one will notice because no one bothers to examine the background or critisize their sources for themselves.

Educate yourself, and you won't have to believe the sort of nonsense that you're presenting in this thread. Surely, given that this conspiracy is so obvious, you can only really be reinforced in your suspicions, and your ability to argue them, by looking into all of this more closely?

For the record though, I don't use the internets for any kind of in-depth study. No one's that stupid. If there's a news article there, I'll certainly read it, but I rely on in-depth study, which generally means more than a single page of internets, and rather 300-500 pages of actual insight. And generally I prefer to hear everyone out before I dare to establish anything as confirmed. I'd be more than happy to show you my bookcase of military and security related reading material if you prefer.

I'll even make a customized note to go with it, just so there's no room for a conspiracy ;)

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

I've replied to your statements before. Post number two. Number three.. Every time you claim your assumption based on whatever analysis is accurate, you talk out of the rear end.

Nothing, including the supposed bin laden being recorded at the compound alive negates the point that he might've been dead before May 2.

I never stated nor hinted at the raid not taking place, nor did I state the helicopter wasn't there. i'm just giving you examples of contradictory elements in the chain of events. Similarly, if one says he had a gun and the other says he didn't, surely one of them is false, Which one? Both? The raid might've been completely, partially or not staged at all.

i might've overdid it at certain moments, there's no nonsense in stating that the dead leader is being exploited or that Pakistani basically free themselves from any obligations whatsoever by agreeing.

In the end, it comes down to the same things I said from the start. You don't dump the bloody body in the sea. You don't have zero leaks. There's no nonsense in that. Period. You weren't there. you weren't anywhere out of the events mentioned here. You don't have to analyze here, you have to either be there or see something gets shown/leaked. One small leak at soem point in time from now and your whole analysis becomes of no value.

Only thing that would negate those two.is a fact. A validated opinion is that, a validated opinion.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

Fog of war is the simple explanation to your question. Look it up.

The leaks are there, along with an overwhelming body of evidence, the corpse is not, and the most verifiable evidence is being withheld. Tough shit, but if you're familiar with all the elements and procedures that would go into analyzing a chain of events like these, and their limitations, then there's still no reason to expect that a global cover up is in effect.

Even the actionable intelligence itself was leaked in advance of the raid, which most consider to be the reason for it happening when it did.

It's too unlikely for anyone with any insight to even consider, merely based on an unreleased photograph and the internets ridiculous ideas of what Pakistan, Obama and Al Qaeda would stand to gain.

For one it wouldn't be very clever to start a global cover up by saying that you have the body, but you threw it in the sea. Surely, you would fabricate an image to show the public if deception was your aim, rather than rousing their suspicions.

Curiosity and common sense is all you need.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Well, kind of. The official explanation to my quandry is that helicopter was down due to a vortex.

Funny, keep telling yourself that, might actually become true one day.

Sorry, DSb, with your attitude you have to have nothing but facts to back you up all the time. Which you don't have atm. There're side leaks, there's your educated view. But not facts involving the subject in question. Sorry,

Okay. So they don't gain anything from announcing their leader dying as a martyr if he's no more anyway, quite an insight you have there.

If you're familiar with all the elements you can state a validated view, it only gets you so far. Dumping the corpse in the sea isn't going anywhere though.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

It's not just facts, it's not individual pieces of evidence. It's a wealth of general knowledge on everything from methods and procedures to general intent, and capability.

There's a big difference between reading the analysis and accounts of former intelligence agents and former terrorists, and simply buying into internet paranoia based on peoples paranoid imagination.

A lot of intelligence work is based on comparing the known to the unknown - Essentially using common sense and intuition. The difference between believing the facts as they appear and believing in a crazy conspiracy that has no basis what so ever, is the difference between an educated guess from someone who's been there, and the imagination of a person who doesn't even care to learn the background.

I'd much rather listen to the qualified few who are actually in the game, than paranoid strangers on the internet, who don't even want to pick up a book.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Zero imagination is required to state that you don't dump terrorist number one corpse in the sea.

Zero imagination or paranoia required to state that leaks involving the main subject should happen.

Sorry. No matter how well you know the military, you can't negate those.

Anyway, though, at this point I suppose we should agree to disagree.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

Not really. That's the choice they made. Why would you give him a proper burial and make his grave into a shrine? You could either burn him, dissolve the body, or throw it into the sea. They chose option number three. Patrice Lumumba was dissolved in lye, no one disputes that account in spite of the missing evidence.

Obviously they will have secured whatever evidence they needed from the corpse before doing so.

Leaks have happened, you just seem to have a hard time understanding it. Parts of the actionable intelligence leading to his capture was even released without anyone realising it.

You're providing zero proof of conspiracy, or the suspected culprits ability to conduct a conspiracy. All you're doing is reading way too much into events that you don't even understand, because you don't care to learn.

Whereas their actions are essentially understandable within the accounts given, if not neccesarily agreeable. Lots of security experts have called it a poor choice not to release the evidence, but that's mostly because nutjobs like yourself are likely to doubt it because of that. None of them actually doubt the account of the raid.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Oh dear.

Shrine, srsly? Now you're making stuff up indeed. The terrorists would bury him where nobody knows, besides the point is that they clearly did that in a hassle, to prevent anything from being leaked. Neither of the two Hussein guys were treated to proper burials, they had absolutely nothing from preventing them from refraining for some time. They didn't have to show respect, they had no reason to be cautious of some er, shrine.

Leaks involving bin Laden didn't. sorry.

Those two are facts. And facts with obvious outcomes for anyone not brain dead or having a chip.

i know why you 're trying so hard, Dsb. And given your post performances, it's not because of the truth. But anyway.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

I hear ya man, it's a lot more likely to assume that a global conspiracy spanning thousands of people, with Pakistan, Al Qaeda and the USA working together towards the same goal, based on.... Absolutely no evidence, what so ever, than it is to assume that the US simply didn't want to show the maimed corpse of Osama Bin Laden, and elected to dispose of the body.

It's also extremely likely that you would know the truth on this matter, rather than the highly qualified experts of the world. They're in on it, right? They're too stupid to see the signs, man!

Take a valium, lay off the LSD, or a get a hobby. Really.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

Er, right.

Well, surely the dumping in the sea, coupled with zero leaks is more than better compared to a porn stash. Thousands, really? It takes the top ones to announce, with the rest of them following.

So assassinating bin Laden pales in comparison to an effect his body would induce on Al Qaeda. Allright. Or perhaps they really care about kids surfing the net.

Conspiracy has nothing to do with it, I'm not theoretizing, I'm not the one imagining shrines.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Stay in school kids.

Posted 1 year ago #
Da Man
Member

You should really excercise caution, perhaps I should bump some of the topics where you posted the erm, 'sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.' Luckily people were there to prevent you from going. Nah, I'm content with knowing your true colors. Not that I just found them out.

Posted 1 year ago #
DSB
Member

That is so fucking scary!

Posted 1 year ago #

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