VG247 Forum » The VG247 forum

1. Patrick Garratt
   Key Master

   I'm getting a lot of complaints about trolling. There are a number of courses of action I can take.

   1 - Do nothing. Anarchy can exist in reality. Why do you need to be told what to do?
   2 - Have "proper" moderation. You're a bunch of children that need to be told how to behave.
   3 - Ban some people. There are some ringleading trolls that have gone too far. Shoot them, and we arrive at stage 1.
   4 - Ban some people and appoint moderators. There are some ringleading trolls that have gone too far, but more will always come back, so we have to go to stage 2.

   If we're going to ban anyone, it should be a community decision. If there's a big enough voice, you should have the right to expel people.

   Who?

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. someguy2
   Member

   Although I may be associated as a 'troll' and part of one of the parties that causes the conflict. I think you should assess the people who aren't involved with either party and are what you would deem neutral. From what I've seen someone like Blerk would make a good job as a super moderator.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Christopher Jack
   Member

   3, Just ban those that troll like SOMI, itsucks among others. Work out some system like if 3 people in a single article asked for one guy to be banned, just get rig of the troll. We don't need much moderating in my opinion. Just the spammers & trolls.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. OrbitMonkey
   Member

   It seems to me their are 1 or 2 people who through no fault of your own have ruined the online experience for everyone else. I think you should...

   A) Take full responsibility and post a page long apology.

   B) Release a video of you bowing in apology for 7 mins.

   C) Buy everyone a copy of a game of their choice.

   Now excuse me as I contact my politician, a Canadian lady will be suing you soon.

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. Robo_1
   Member

   This is going to end well then. :)

   Look, a lot of good people have either left here completely or post a lot less, and it's no surprise why. If you want to chat about games or the articles posted, you want to be able to do so without the constant fear of every comment or thread turning into a dozen page fanboy war.

   I always liked VG247's free for all policy, but sadly this seems unsustainable if you don't want to drive away posters who are sick of all the trolling. However, the free for all policy has been the rule of the place thus far,
   so maybe it's best to just draw a line in the sand going forward, and say up to now there were no rules, from now on there are, and those who don't follow them will be dealt with accordingly.

   The rules could be something along the lines of:

   1. Be respectful of other peoples opinion.

   2. No personal insults.

   3. No derailing of threads purely for the purpose of console war BS.

   4. Don't post spoilers for the purpose of ruining other peoples fun.

   5. No sustained trolling of either formats or posters.

   Each time you break one of these rules you're warned, three warnings equal a ban.

   As I say, I think it's best to give everyone a clean slate and move forward with something similar to the rules proposed above, and so everyone knows where they stand, and can be banned accordingly.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. Patrick Garratt
   Key Master

   Robo - That sounds sensible.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. G1GAHURTZ
   Member

   test.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. Robo_1
   Member

   @Pat

   Cheers. As I say, I've always been a fan of the open and enthusiastic atmosphere which runs through this place, and in many respects it's sad that it's come to this, but yeah, better a few rules to weed out the trouble makers, than allow them to run the community into the ground.

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. Nozz
   Member

   Agree with the 3 warning system. Pointing names here and there (unless obvious spammers still exist) will get VG24/7 nowhere over a long term basis.

   Enforce the warning system from now so users who leave comments on this site/forum can either rethink their trend of commenting or carry on, receive their warnings and eventually get banned.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. Hunam
    Member

    I entirely agree with Robo. Although I do misbehave, it's only due to frustration with the place at times. In some respects, some people need a thicker skin, but we do have people who troll the crap out of every thread they are in.

    I would like to add a caveat though, that loki be exempt because he never ruins a thread and I think he honestly can not control his hatred of the PC.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. OrbitMonkey
    Member

    On a serious note Pat, all i'd suggest is to keep it simple. 3-4 basic rules along the lines suggested by Robo would be enough for most.

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. G1GAHURTZ
    Member

    TBH Pat, I kind of enjoy the free for all anarchy on here sometimes. In the real world, people have to learn how to deal with other people. All their good and all their bad.

    The danger is that the site turns into a place where someone turns up on a moderators bad day and gets banned for almost nothing.

    I know if this was any other site, I would have been banned numerous times over the years that I've been coming here, and I think that realisation has eventually made me calm down on my own.

    On the one hand, I think that some of us need to learn how to just ignore other people. People get upset at reading things that they're not exactly being forced to read. It's perfectly fine to visit the site and read the stories without having to read every single comment. People will run out of steam eventually, so there's no real harm in riding that initial storm.

    On the other hand, there should be a system for letting people know when they've gone too far. I agree with a warning system, but it's down to interpretation as to which rules have been broken.

    There are, however, some people who will look for any hint of a rule break in order to try and get people unnecessarly banned, so that needs to be taken into consideration here.

    Some people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too sensitive about the things that they like, and aren't able to deal with the slightest criticism.

    Also, I remember that horrible incident where one guy who got banned started coming back and attacking Steph in a pretty horrifying way, so I wonder if the site is even secure enough to keep even the most offensive posters away if they're commited enough. Lets also not forget other notorious individuals who are back here regularly now having been banned in the past. So basically, once people are banned, then what? They'll probably just come back anyway.

    Basically, I think that things aren't too bad the way that they are. If I'm not mistaken, there's already a zero tollerence policy on the really bad things like racism, etc.

    I wouldn't like the site to become a sterile back patting convention where we all agree 100% of the time.

    I think as a community, people can work together to tame or ignore the worst offenders into sorting themselves out without having to resort to nazi style bannig sprees.

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. Patrick Garratt
    Key Master

    How about this, then.

    1. Be respectful of other people's opinions. (Not sure about this one. It's a proper grey area.)

    2. No personal insults.

    3. No derailing of threads purely for platform trolling.

    4. No spoilers at all, unless they're in specifically marked forum threads.

    5. No sustained trolling of either formats or posters.

    Every time you break a rule, you get warned. After three warnings you get a timed ban (a month?). After three timed bans, you're perma-banned.

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. Patrick Garratt
    Key Master

    G1G - Yeah, I'm aware of it. And I like it too. I do want people to enjoy the site without being called an "Xbot" every 12 seconds, though. I think you're right. Just a warning system to tell people when to rein it in a bit should do it.

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. Bloodyghost
    Member

    Lets have a proper moderation around not only here but in the comment sections too.

    There is one big problem with that, corrupt moderation. I have seen this in forums assciated with GameTrailers and others.

    Let the people who got banned by a mod either comment on the situation to you to see if the mod got the wrong idea or have a report on the ban that goes directly to you.

    I am not going to name off people. You should know that there is a BIG list of trolls around here including the groups and there own leaders if you get what I mean.

    Moderation should be given to a select number of older and mature members here or have a write in application to you from any body to become a mod.

    @Pat those are very basic rules but I cant see a loop hole around them. So go with it.

    OH and lastly mods should be given a amount of time they can chose to ban someone.

    1st time, a day. 2nd time, 3 days. If it persists long enough, perm ban them.

    Posted 2 years ago #

16. Bloodyghost
    Member

    OR robo's idea.

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. Patrick Garratt
    Key Master

    BG - I think keeping the rules basic is best. The main problems I can see stem from platform trolling and personal insults. And yeah, I'll keep a toe in it personally.

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. Bloodyghost
    Member

    Pat - That is fine. I think keeping your own thing as "Key Master" assigning these rules is fine.

    Plus when you get mods, you always get a community of people who are against them.

    Cheers

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. BraveArse
    Member

    Good to see you're going to take some kind of action Pat. I think it's gone way too far recently, particularly with repeated and sustained attacks on particular members, I stopped being a daily poster a long time ago but in a way it emphasises the problem. If I come back once every few days, recently there's been a step change in the vitriolic atmosphere around here.

    It really doesn't need much. Just knowing you're on the case will probably do. For me, the problem with the ' in real life we have to learn to deal with this' argument is that in RL we don't generally actually have to deal with the kind of sustained venom that the forums and comments sections both here and on EG have become known for. If you did, you'd be in court either to sue for harassment or for gbh. There are a ton of good people who post here, I'd like to see them post more, but it's just impossible to swim through all the troll shit right now. Smelly stuff it is too.

    I'd add, too, that like it or not, legal spiegle or not, what gets said here, in comments or in the forum, reflects on VG247 as a whole, that includes it's leadership as well as its readership. I certainly wouldnt want to be associated with some of the stuff ive read here recently. It was a laudable experiment. But I'm pretty sick of the wild west these days. Bring on some ( reasonable ) rules!

    Edit: stupid iPad spellchecker

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. OlderGamer
    Moderator

    Both Robo and G1GA make some very solid points, imo.

    I would advocate a fresh restart and a clean slate for everyone on the site. I don't think banning anyone now, for something they did in the past would be the best idea.

    Just have your guidlines. Maybe list em in a thread on the forums, and sticky it. That way they are there for everyone to read. Sort of a terms of service set of rules. Break those rules and you lose your privliges in terms of participating on the site.

    The next issue is who is your "policeman"? I think it should be you, Pat. But realisticly I doubt you wanna be a babysitter, and I doubt you have time to watch the site or scour the threads/posts all of the time. So really I think the toughest hurrdle is going to be who you appoint as a mod.

    Unless your going to do it yourself, I would suggest appointing mods three of them at a time. And picking new mods every so often at set intervile. Like an appointed ofice(like every three months). Perhaps hold a site wide email in and take tose email votes into consideration. Maybe a bit too complex, but I think by having temperary mods it might keep the mods honest in the long run. Maybe not.

    But I do think Mods are needed, otherwise your likly going to get emails saying "Ban this guy because". You might even get a link or two, but in truth your only going to be getting part of the story in most cases. It could be tough to figure out who it the real problem w/o doing a lot of back reading on your own. So having a mod or three that is already part of the active everyday comunity would allow for them to be fully aware of situations as they arise.

    I really think the threat of banning is prolly going to be enough to keep most folks in line. Some posters go over the top because they know nothing will happen to them. Its like a bully in a school yard, w/o a teacher/principle they act however they feel like it. But when they know their is someone watching them, they play nice.

    Ultimatly, Pat, its whatever you wanna do. Go ahead and try something. Even if you want to change it or tweak it later. Something is better then nothing.

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. OlderGamer
    Moderator

    Good post BraveArse.

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. Gadzooks!
    Member

    It's a shame it came to the ruination of the forums for this to happen, but postive action is positive action and it's most welcome.

    The 5 steps listed all seem to be in the right direction, it will be nice to have a community that does justice to the good people that run this site.

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. Kerplunk
    Member

    The issue, Pat, is not "to ban or not to ban", it is about consistency and double standards.

    Those I've seen calling for bans or for 'proper' moderation (surprisingly many in this thread, actually) have frequently exhibited behaviour themselves that they would seek others to be banned for. Off topic-comments designed to disrupt or to target individuals, to incite or to derail, to endorse poor behaviour or to exhibit it themselves.

    I don't have any issue with any one individual. But the instant someone starts to suggest this free land needs laws, then they immediately bring attention to their own behaviour. I've yet to see anyone live within the laws they want brought in but those that preach about rules and banning do so in a manner that suggests they would consider themselves to be above such laws - regardless of how humble they try to appear. The actions always speak louder than the words do.

    Whatever action is taken, consistency is key. Because the instant the behaviour of one person is reprimanded and the same behaviour of another is not you will be perceived to have displayed double-standards and/or favouritism. You'll find that a hundred times harder to manage than anything you're dealing with now.

    ---

    Personally, I'm in favour of anarchy. It's fun.

    The straight talkers, whether they be commenters, fanboys or trolls, are easy to spot and just as easy to listen to or ignore.

    The stealth trolls are the nastiest ones to deal with. Pushing their agenda and being disruptive but doing so in a manner designed to look innocent. Compare their actions to their words, however, and you can see straight through their facade. And when you uncover their raw nerve their true colours quickly show themselves when they lash out and let their mask drop.

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. reask
    Member

    I mean why not disallow any thread concerning a member be it good or bad.
    A warning from any of the staff if someone's going overboard should be enough otherwise.
    We are all big boys and girls and should be able to handle most situations and if said threads are not allowed there will be no focus point.

    I mean where do you draw the line otherwise?
    Sometimes I might be in the mood for a wind up but does that mean I get banned by some trigger happy mod?
    Leave well enough alone for the moment with the thread suggestion put in place.

    Posted 2 years ago #

25. Patrick Garratt
    Key Master

    It is fun, yeah, but there's "straight-talking" and just being stupidly aggressive to the point where loads of people simply won't comment. The idea of having a modless community wasn't to allow people to relentlessly attack others. It was supposed to let people express themselves without restriction, not viscously insult each other.

    I don't care if someone thinks PCs are shit. It's funny. I have no idea why people get so amazingly het up about platform stuff. It's beyond me. And I don't want whatever we do here to give the impression that you can't say PC's are shit if you want to. Why would anyone care?

    There's obviously a line, though. Some of the platform trolling we've seen over the PSN thing has become far too personal, and I do think we need to check it.

    The bottom line it that there's no point in allowing people complete free-rein if it results in a lot of posters getting genuinely upset and me having a damaged website. It doesn't make sense. I think putting these guidelines in place is likely to produce something more along the lines of the original vision, to be honest.

    Posted 2 years ago #

26. Kerplunk
    Member

    I would add that if you go with any sort of moderation, then you need to have a system for reporting issues discretely. Doing so inside of a discussion itself will bring unwanted attention on the one making the report and may add fuel to any ill-feeling already on display in that discussion.

    Actually, something like that could be in place even without moderators. Hardcode an email link to something like "community@vg247.com" on each page that'll auto-include the address of the offending topic in it and you'd have the nuts and bolts of a reporting system. Then all you need to do is have someone monitor emails sent to that address.

    This sort of thing, if you go in that direction, really needs to be managed carefully if it's going to be done properly.

    Posted 2 years ago #

27. Ireland Michael
    Moderator

    3, and only 3.

    We don't need moderation. You just need to get rid of the most blatant disturbances. People's over-willingness to abuse their modding priveledges has already been proven numerous times.

    The most obvious candidates for banning are the blatant troll accounts like SOMI, or people who feel the need to aggressively attack people.

    The bans should be entirely at Pat and the rest of the staff's discretion. No community involvement. They're smart enough to know who the worst culprits are and get rid of them themselves.

    It worked with Shatner. It will work with these people too

    Turning this into a democracy is just a waste of time and energy. Just ban whoever you think should be banned and get it over with.

    Posted 2 years ago #

28. LOLshock94
    Member

    and also augustuscole he has for some reason been spamming stuff about getting free codes to a fake website

    Posted 2 years ago #

29. onlineatron
    Member

    It's such a tricky subject. On the one hand opinions are opinions, if you can't express yours on the internet, where can you? But on the other - diseased burdened, Scary Movie 2, crippled - hand: trolls are the worst.

    Too many times have I come to VG247, hit up a comment thread, only to leave 5 seconds later after seeing a barrage of awful, awful arguments.

    I'm far from perfect online, I have a habit to contribute nothing but petty, off-hand remarks in forums; but I'd like to think I at least try, some of the time, to contribute some intelligent discussion. However, more often than not, my comments are ignored in favour of rampent trolling.

    I think @Robo_1 has the right idea. Set out *clear*, *distinct* rules, and if people wish to abuse them, then that's hard cheddar, you're out!

    PS. You're plan of action descriptions had me in stitches, Pat :D

    Posted 2 years ago #

30. Patrick Garratt
    Key Master

    I'm not going to ban anyone. I'll edit up the rules and post them in the forum this weekend. After that, I will start getting rid of people if they're consistently idiotic.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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