You may have heard of that new vat grown beef.
Would you eat it?
You may have heard of that new vat grown beef.
Would you eat it?
I think with so much choice available for veggies now, what wold be the point?
My family are vegetarian and when I was growing up, choice of meat substitutes was pretty poor, not to mention expensive.
Now, every supermarket contains a large range of veggie options and such. But yeah, you could argue technically nothing has been killed. It's still a strange concept though.
Personally monkey I think it'll become a poor man's meat, with *real* meat reserved for the wealthy.
Still, better than soylant green :)
i think this is interesting but i havent really looked into it yet. on the other hand, i am personally a veggie for 20 years or so now. i never eat meat substitutes nor do i miss meat. in the first 1 or 2 years i ate that stuff but now i don´t need it nor do i crave it. i love to cook. i love to eat too. great thing about being vegetarian: you can eat like a maniac but you just don´t become fat.
Read about it recently in newspaper. I think its a great option for people who don't like animals being killed.
However, proper testing should be done before releasing such products into markets. Hush hush job can lead to serious complications.
I 100% agree with Zinc on that one. Even it does not becomes like that right away, it will eventually be and I assume in short amount of time.
Why? I wonder but where money is, greed will flock.
Yeah, I would eat it. I also eat regular meat too though, so I don't think I count =P. But really, vegetarians are usually divided into two camps, people who don't eat due to health and due to the humaneness of it. Wouldn't be surprise if people freak out over lab-grown meat though.
Also, if you grew a human meat steak, would that be classed as canabalism?! O_o
Well... you're not harming anybody, so technically it should be allowed... I think...
"Soylent green is people!!!"
The idea that you should not eat meat because it involves animals being killed is mental to me. I've been involved in farming, shooting and fishing since I was born, to me it makes total sense to kill and eat things. I guess many here would be keen hunting or shooting advocates too.
The way I see it is that humans have a duty to the animals they have domesticated and kept throughout time. It is a kind of symbiotic relationship between animals and humans. Humans provide food, water, shelter and protection from predators, and in return we take their eggs/milk/meat. As a result, the animals humans have domesticated have basically a guaranteed existence in future and forevermore.
By contrast animals in the wild have to contend with thirst, starvation, pain, disease, predation and still can be eaten or have their eggs stolen.
Ask yourself, which existence would you rather have?
If you outlawed the consumption of any kind of animal products tonight, all domesticated animals would basically cease to exist, there would be no need for them.
Humans have a duty to keep animals humanely, kindly and respect them. My grandfather always said farming was gods own work. Of course his generation would have known rationing and genuine hunger.
I'm no longer a vegetarian, though I was once for about 8 months.
My reasons were ethical (mainly had a problem with the conditions and methods of slaughter in factory farms), while some others do it for health or religious reasons.
However, there is a fourth reason that some people don't eat meat--and vat-grown meat wouldn't be any exception--and that's that it is simply unsustainable to supply an increasingly larger human population with meat, both in terms of energy expenditure and required space. While vat-grown meat would certainly reduce the amount of space required to produce meat, (no one would have to burn down acres of rainforest to raise cattle, for example) I can't imagine growing artifical meat in a lab-like setting is in any way energy efficient, in fact, it likely reqires a tremendous amount of energy, effort, and skilled personnel to produce even a small amount. So, for those kinds of vegetarians, I don't think it's really a suitable option, or will be for many decades to come.
There's a few things with your post, although it was good to have someone experienced in farming culture.
"By contrast animals in the wild have to contend with thirst, starvation, pain, disease, predation and still can be eaten or have their eggs stolen.
Ask yourself, which existence would you rather have?"
Basically your asking people if they would rather be 'free' and take risks, or safe but enslaved (which ironically describes society at the moment in some ways)... I think a lot of people would choose the former.
"Humans have a duty to keep animals humanely, kindly and respect them. My grandfather always said farming was gods own work. Of course his generation would have known rationing and genuine hunger."
I don't agree with the god statement, you'll see why if you dare enter the other thread! :) Farming is 'of the ages', and one of the most single important parts of human history IMO.
Mass produce and farming is a where the problem comes in IMO. The quest for better, faster growing and cheaper produce has encouraged Farmers and companies to come up with some awful ways of increasing productivity.
From chemical agents, cross contamination all the way to animal cruelty on a huge scale.
There is nothing noble about raping the land.
I have respect for small, ideally organic operations. And, if you are keeping livestock, caring for your animals and respecting them is vital.
I eat meat but I buy organic where possible. I don't agree with mass production or animal cruelty, but I do believe that it's basically just part of the cycle of life to eat livestock (and plants) without abusing the system e.g. by using battery farms. Also organic tastes better.
If everyone bought organic it would eventually become a case of only the middle class and beyond being able to afford meat, or a rare treat for others.. or people raise and kill and eat their own. Personally I would totally own my own livestock if it was even remotely affordable to buy farmland here.. but England is so overpopulated that land costs too much.
I also don't believe in vegetarianism, we're born omnivores and no amount of argument will ever change that. As in I don't believe it's a good idea to eliminate meat protein from the diet and I get absolutely livid when I see parents force their kids down that route.
As for "grown" meat. Yeah, I think I'll pass on that one. Probably end up being a big cause of cancer or something.
As long as the child has a choice, it's not a problem.
The key is being able to cook and understanding nutrition.
I was Veggie when I lived at home as both my parents were. I ate meat when I went out but respected their views 'in house'. When I moved out I now can choose between meals as and when I fancy.
Sometimes I eat veggie for a few days, then meat, whatever I fancy really.
Including meat protein in a diet is not the be all and end all of a healthy diet.
My mum is a pretty great cook, and I never suffered from any kind of deficiancy growing up. Healthy and active life style and knowledge of nutriants and cooking is what helps give your body a good start in life.
Most veggie's don't protest it's our natural human diet, our teeth are a perfect example thats bullshit. So not believing it as a whole is a bit harsh.
Why do you get livid? As long as the kid has a choice when they are old enough to weigh up the facts, then it's pretty standard.
My brother and his girlfriend are veggie and have brought up their children that way, however, when my nephew started asking about meat, they offered him the choice.
Now he can take it or leave it. Most young kids I see view 'meat' as billy bear ham (one shopping trip to tesco's will show you that). I think that view is more worrying and dangerous to your health.
I agree that you've basically got my reasoning down when it comes to vegetarianism. (I am one) I have been all my life but it's not like I couldn't eat meat if I wanted too, I just have no desire too. My parents never forced it on me, in fact they often gave me the choice of if I wanted to stay one.
I don't care if people eat meat, but by the same token of you being angry that you perceive some people as 'pushing' it on other people. You pushing meat onto me is no different. I am a human being who has enough brain-power to look at the natural order and decide for myself what I want to do, just as you can.
But as for the topic...well I wouldn't be adverse to eating it but it's not like I'm desperate to try it. I don't like lots of things so I'm pretty used to avoiding foods xD But if the choice came up I'm sue I'd give it a go :)
I wonder if artificial meat would also reduce our environmental footprint if it were produced in bulk. Since you'd need less animal farmland.
Here you guys. I've been involved in agriculture my whole life, and I know a fair bit catering and food, too.
Some questions for you.
Firstly, what makes you think organic farming is automatically good for you or the environment?
And secondly, I don't think you can claim meat or animal product consumption is unethical because of the resources involved. Think about it; whole groups of humans lived solely on an animal based diet for generations. For starters those people in Siberia who live nearly exclusively on reindeer, also the nomadic people in the middle east/ Africa, also Eskimos.
Why is this? It is solely because animals can survive where no wheat, corn or rice plant ever could. I can rear beef on a wet cold Scottish hillside, using only grass. I can keep goats and sheep on desert scrubland where few plants would thrive.
Monoculture is arguably more environmentally damaging than any amount of animal keeping. Check out the Aral sea if you want to see what crop production can do to the environment.
Chemical and fertiliser (or rather hydrocarbon/oil) based agriculture is the only reason this planet will support 7 billion people. I could feed about 2 billion organically, if I ploughed up every patch of land going. The remainder would starve and wildlife would have to move over.
@nollie don't want to boil things up but there is a huge difference between farming/hunting and the overly exaggerated mass production of animals.
I recommend anybody who loves to eat meat to visit a slaughtering business. And I don't mean the nice and small ones in the country side. I mean big business mass slaughtery, where every 12seconds (!) a pig is slaughtered and gutted. I was there taking pictures (On assignment) and couldn't eat meat for three weeks....
I love meat and that's why I eat less and buy organic from small farms or from the marketstand of my choice.
The only way this planet is going to feed 7billion people is not by having large-scale livestock farming. Because noone needs meat every day. And as you mentioned monoculture, I take that you haven't heard where the Soja grows to feed the cattle worldwide? Just google for the south-American problem for the problem in monoculture for Soja. Here is an older link http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SDILA.php
And a smaller problem (although considering the water shortages in some places, its not even minor) is that bovine meat uses roughly 15.000 litre water per kilogram meat. Thats not only considering the water it drinks of course but 'virtual water', the wateramount it takes to grow Soja, clean the stable and such ... Compared to Chicken with roughly 4.300 or Potatoes with 106 litre per kilogram it's a huge amount of water. Just saying, you can find the numbers and much more interesting informations here: http://www.waterfootprint.org/?page=files/Animal-products
I don't buy into that whole circle of life bullshit. Fuck you lion king!
It's not a circle, it's a pyramid & we're on top.
Doubt many circle of lifers here would be so blasé if actual apex predators were wandering the streets.
Certainly make the commute to work interesting.
Humans are just a miserable pile of secrets.
I have visited slaughter houses on a number of occasions. It was cold, even brutal and very quick, but certainly looked humane to me. I have killed animals with my own hand, I have no problem with animals being killed and prepared in a production line fashion. If one does not agree with this as a concept, then they need to cease eating meat immediately IMO.
The human race is very good at producing vast amounts of carbohydrates, not so hot at producing protein.
We can talk ethics all day long, but humans stopped being ethical long ago.
There are too many people to live truly sustainably any longer. In essence, we are all eating oil, a stored form of sunlight which fell on the earth millions of years ago. About 5 billion people are alive today because of the Haber process and inventions like the plough and modern varieties of crop plants.
I am an agronomist, for the uninitiated this means I look after crops, sell seed and chemicals to protect and nourish them. It is my duty to grow the finest crops whilst getting away with the least amount of inputs I can, and to make the farmer some money along the way. Every tonne or bushel I can gain helps the farmer, the human race and the environment. That is a strange statement to make, I know. The reason is the more product we can get from an area the less area we will need to farm. Farming is a very destructive form of land use. In agriculture we divert natural ecosystems and put them to work for human use. This is bad for the environment and so we must minimize the amount of land we use when doing it.
Organic farming is farming in a way where you accept much lower yields and quality per unit area. Thus to obtain the same amount of product you would need much more land. That is environmental suicide. You can have land for human use or you can let nature do what she will with it. You cannot have both. The moment you till the soil, or plough it, you start a process of diverting natural processes and denying that land to wild flora or fauna.
Don't kid yourself any kind of farming is better than another, they are all equally destructive. It is to be avoided.
Yeah, I heard all that before ... and in the end you are selling Monsanto seeds to make this world a better place ... because we *need* them to survive. Sorry but no. And since I'm no english native speaking person, it's difficult for me to argue with you but what you believe in makes me shiver. No thanks, tell your tales somebody else.
@monkey it's not really a choice when the kid is brought up with the same beliefs as the parents. Parents who don't feed their kids any meat whilst growing.. most important stage of human life.. sorry but they disgust me. Yes I'll rob my child of the nutrients mother nature intended. Because killing animals is wrong and I know better!!
Wouldn't surprise me if the average life expectancy of people starts to actually reverse/reduce because of such stupidity.
I mean really.. assuming you know better than mother nature.. ignorance at it's finest.
@silk: a vegetarian diet wont hurt a kid. in fact it is a very healthy diet. that´s scientifically proven. it does no harm at all, that´s why i don´t think it is a problem. i think mg has it right. if the kid goes to a birthday party and they serve sausages there, that´s fine, if kiddo wants to eat a burger once in a while, fine, go for it, but try to explain what that actually is as soon as it makes sense. cook vegetarian at home but do not force your beliefs onto the kid. explain. never force.
i can tell you my story. when i found out about the meat mass production, how all that stuff works, as a very young teen, i was literally shocked and i was very angry about my parents for not telling me. then i needed a few more years to emancipate myself because i bought into those food lies "you need that, it´s good for you, without meat you wont stay healthy" etc.
well that was just a pile of crap and i know that now.
i lost trust in my parents and in society in general. seriously. it was a big damage they have done to our relationship. i wouldn´t want that to happen to my parent/child relationship.
imo meat is no food at all, at least not for humans to consume. but that´s me. feel free to disagree. i am fine with that. i wont fight about who´s right or wrong. i personally thought about this issue A LOT and for me there just is no way back. it would feel unnatural to me. i still have to think about what is going on in the slaughterhouses of this world every single day. cannot get this out of my head because it is insane brutality and absolutely unnecessary. it is very sad. ok, i have a soft spot for animals i must admit that. was always like that. not ashamed to admit that i am very sensitive regarding this. every time i see a road kill i die a little inside ;)
i will let my children decide for themselves but i believe in vegetarianism and i wont cook meat for my child. like you say, humans are omnivores, they do not need meat, even dogs are omnivores, (cats are carnivores though:)
@nollie. without ethics you have nothing. organic farming is the way to go. 2 of my friends have studied agriculture and work in the organic farming sector. one of them runs his own business (manufacturing oils). we talk about these things a lot.
you need water and grains to feed animals, you get much much less meat out of that food and water. if you´d use the space to plant stuff humans could consume directly you´d instantly solve a lot of the food ressource problems we are facing. to me vegetarianism is a key factor to solve a lot of these problems. it could be quite easy really.
you are painting a picture of an industry that doesn´t exist how you describe it. it´s not like there are some cute animals living on a beautiful farm, the nice farmer treating them as if they are his friends...the term humane killing is pretty much, well, crazy.
it´s cool to hear some of you guys are reflecting about that, trying to eat less meat or buy organic. that´s a great start. respect to all.
@nollie....if you live from selling crops i understand why you support the meat industry. it needs shitloads of that product to feed the animals. it makes sense to sell as much of the product as you can, sure. you sell more of it the more meat is produced. busineswise it makes sense.....but then, ethics come into play.
'Cats are carnivores'...
Tell that to my mums cat! It just ate all the leaves off her Bonsai tree when she was out! :)
But neither is a choice when a child is brought up on a meat based diet. The default doesn't have to be meat.
Like I said, I was a healthy child growing up, I was never told otherwise by Doctors / GP's.
Many cultures have a vegetarian diet and thrive and are healthy. It's not assuming you know better than Mother Nature, that's plain wrong.
Without natural procreation, gay people wouldn't be able to have kids. Are we 'going against mother nature' when assisting people to who wish to start families? Of course not... The love and care people offer a child is most important.
Unless you have a completely organic lifestyle, your argument Is flawed, farmers continually battle 'mother nature' to 'improve' there productivity and produce output.
I had a long conversation about this last night with friends, the funniest thing I think when your vegetarian, so many meat eaters try to force meat on you?! It's actually crazy. My younger life holds many memories of people trying to get me to eat ham or fish etc...
It's so weird, I was like:
'Whats in it for you? Leave me the fuck alone!' Hahaha! :)
People were obsessed with my vegetarianism and how 'difficult' it was. Now I'm not vegetarian, I would never treat someone who is in the same way. Just do what you do, learn to cook and understand nutrition.
@poly imo veggies are no good at all, for humans, because I decided I know better than my base nature.
Same shit your'e talking from a different angle.
ok, i disagree completely about that "base nature" thing. but alright. to each his own :)
Human's havn't known a "base nature" since the utilisation of fire.
We are the ONLY species that cooks thier food.
Oh & before any vegies try to stake a "mother nature's bounty" highground, your lifestyle depends on farming too.
Farming being another exclusive of the human animal.
p.s. Food for thought (LOL), if we all went veggie tmro, what would happen to the common pig?
As I said before, alot of vegetarians are just trying to live there lives.
When I was younger, I was constantly having to justify myself almost every 'meal time'.
As for your question; the same thing with any animal that we have either domesticated or encroached on its lifestyle.
Foxes are a great example... People complain about them, but, at the same time all they do is adapt to the changes WE make to their environment. That deserves kudos, rather than destruction IMO.
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