VG247 Forum » Topic: New IP vs Refinement.

VG247 Forum » Topic: New IP vs Refinement. http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836 Just another bbPress community en-US Mon, 20 May 2013 13:07:10 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.vg247.com/forum/search.php Edo on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39282 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:51:52 +0000 Edo 39282@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ My bad,I thought this was G1GAHURTZ and Call of Duty vs The World thread... GwynbleiddiuM on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39281 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:34:55 +0000 GwynbleiddiuM 39281@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Exactly what Orbit said, It's the cycle that is responsible for this fatigue, that's why we have so many activities on the indie scene through personal funding and kickstarters. Devs are breaking free because they want IPs that they own, so they can experiment with them, inject new ideas and try to be innovative again. They don't have to follow up a publisher target list, and in my opinion indie scene in the long run will help a lot to contain this wild spread cancer throughout the industry. I'm not denying anything you said because that is true, yet that is also my problem. The industry is leaning backwards, taking assured steps toward what is called safe business to be able to satisfy newer generation of gamers that the greatest games they will ever play would be Skyrim, Blops 2, Halo 4. I'm not saying those games are not great but there were greater ones. This is a sort of problem I have with my brothers, One of them is 3 years younger than me, the other is 10 years. My 3 yrs younger brother have played almost everything I have played on consoles until Xbox 360, and never played anything I played on PC. The other one isn't really bothered with playing on either platform, he plays on my ps3, he played on my brothers xbox 360 before going RROD on him, and plays mostly on his PC. He is more open minded to games that I recommend him to play than the other one. I recommended both of them to play Dragon Age: Origins, the younger one played and enjoy it, and my, erm, middle brother stopped few minutes into the game. There's a point to that I'm trying to get to so please bear with me a moment longer. That is his general approach to RPG and RTS games, unless they can be played with a Xbox 360 controller, he wont touch them, with the exception of one Football Manager which can be done mostly with a mouse. What I'm trying to say is when you get used to play games with similar mechanics and gameplay, it will be very hard to appreciate anything else. And not only that people easily stop playing or never touch games that are inferior to what they play right now. Even if you put original CoD in front of a new generation gamer that loves the franchise today, it's likely that they wont go back to it after the first hour. It is less likely for someone who loves and spend so much time with Skyrim to play Morrowind, Oblivion even, and have the same impression and fun. The industry is training the gamers to be like that, and they will decorate their games with violence or luscious models whenever it's necessary to cover up their short comings. And do you remember why Infinity Ward fell apart? There was this financial dispute they had going on yes, but, they had this other problem that they've been promised to be able to work on a new IP with new ideas that they've been tempering around with after CoD4. They wanted to do different things and Activision wanted to do more Call of Duty. I don't know why they went from one soul sucking publisher to another, but that was part of their dispute with activision. They wanted to do more than just Call of Duty, they wanted to do more than just Steak. OrbitMonkey on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39275 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 20:05:06 +0000 OrbitMonkey 39275@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ No-one is overlooking the role big franchises play, but human nature is human nature. Feed a man steak everyday & eventually even beans on toast will seem a tastier option. G1GAHURTZ on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39274 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 19:47:11 +0000 G1GAHURTZ 39274@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @Gwyn: Fatigue is a very important part of this topic, actually, so it was good that you raised it. People often go on about sequel fatigue, but what they forget is that new gamers are almost always coming into the scene. Whether they're just people who never really thought that they'd enjoy games before, or youngsters finally getting their hands on their first console, there are many people who are buying the 1 or 2 million new consoles that are sold every month who are playing these games for the first time, and not fatigued at all. Some people's first ever experience of an FPS will probably be Black Ops 2. So they will be having the advantage of playing a very refined version of a game whose dev will surely have learned lessons over a number of years that make it a better experience with less negatives. It's the same with the FIFAs, the Mario Karts, the Gran Turismo's, etc. Sure, some people will develop fatigue eventually, but the games industry grows with new gamers enjoying big franchises. And as for the issue of those who develop fatigue, well, for me, it's like the guy who goes to the all you can eat buffet, then complains that the food isn't that nice after he's stuffed his face to almost belly bursting point. @O'Connor: <blockquote>Iterative sequels allow good concepts to be improved upon and evolved over time, (hopefully) making an already polished piece of media better and better. You can look at the inane repetition of Assassin's Creed 1 and how this was improved upon in future games, or Mario's evolution from 2D to 3D as examples of this. </blockquote> Definitely. A well made point. @OG, DSB: Yeah, I said the games industry might be calling out for new IPs, but my point was that they are much less important than the leading franchises. The leading franchises are eventually developed not only by devs experienced in making a quality product, but also with the advice and suggestions of their fanbase. Take a look at the biggest MP games, and you'll see that they usually work very closely with fans and pro gamers of their game all through development, in order to get a deeper understanding of what their customers want. Usually, all new IPs really benefit from is focus testing from people who only get to play the game over one or two days. So, again, the point is not that new IPs bring nothing to the industry. The point is that new IPs don't do as much for the industry as the bigger franchises. The big franchise is the end target of where the new ideas want to get. So maybe, instead of saying that the industry needs more and more new IPs to grow, people shouldn't overlook the huge role that the big franchises actually play. OlderGamer on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39273 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:26:09 +0000 OlderGamer 39273@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "It's a vicious cycle. Obviously people are getting burnt out on games, the industry is running itself into the ditch, and as such it only becomes much less willing to take chances, even though that aversion to risk and the stagnation it brings, is what created the problem in the first place." The thing is DSB, so many folks just don't see that there is even a problem at all. I would imagine that the older the gamer, the more fatigue they might feel. After all if this is your first rodeo you prolly don't feel like you have seen everything and played everything all ready. DSB on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39271 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:01:54 +0000 DSB 39271@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Civilization, X-Com, Baldurs Gate, Deus Ex, Arkham Asylum, Darksiders, Far Cry, Dead Space, Borderlands etc. etc. I think it's wishful thinking to be able to make a rule that says sequels innovate, while new ideas go nowhere. I think it's more of a modern concept that publishers have started to half ass their new IPs, and rob them of any kind of singular identity that might make them stand out like some of the titles I put above. Games don't get the same chance to shock and move things forward, because they always need to tie in to something else, to (from the executives point of view) limit the risk. The idea is obviously that the swine must be fed, and changing the feed is a dangerous notion. I think there has been some measure of risk for any defining moment there ever has been in gaming. A sequel obviously doesn't mean that you can't innovate, but I think it does get used as an excuse to be creatively stagnant far too often these days. It's a vicious cycle. Obviously people are getting burnt out on games, the industry is running itself into the ditch, and as such it only becomes much less willing to take chances, even though that aversion to risk and the stagnation it brings, is what created the problem in the first place. OlderGamer on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39268 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:32:21 +0000 OlderGamer 39268@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ It isn't as black and white as all of that tho Ghz, at lest not imo. Some highlights would be: What if a sequels stagnets? It becomes past its peak, doesn't do much if anything to continue to evolve and grow. Examples poping into my mind are sports game. I would be thrilled with 20usd roster updates and small patches that fix glitches, etc instead of a full blown 60usd game with 50usd in DLC, every single year. While it is true, in most cases, that every new IP has a long term goal of becoming a mega selling franchase full of sequels, it also needs to be noted that every franchise started as a new IP. And, at least imo, the influx of new IPs to the industry keeps the store shelves, and our game libaries, fresh. Lack of new IP from a studio chases away talent. Once a studio becomes a slave to an IP in many cases the talent that developed that IP often leave. You can see this all around us. Torchlight was made by people that worked on Diablo and Diablo II. Bungie left Halo to do something different, I am sure they talked to MS about branching out, the answer was likly, no...more Halo. So they found was to leave. Cliffy left Unreal and Gears when he left Epic. Lots of examples. People as devs want to expand and grow, being locked into one or two franchises for the rest of their carrers doesn't allow for that. I would strongly argee that sequels do NOT inovate more then new IP. I would concide that sequels refine a formula that drove sales of a the IP when it was new. But that doesn't always result in sucess. Example here would be Darksiders 2 is one of the titles that help break THQ. Minecraft vs CoD BLOPS2, Halo 4, Mario Bros WiiU, Mario Kart 7, Gears 3, and so on. Often smaller studios creating fresh new IPs almost always inovate far more then anything with an establish formula for sucsess. The fact is the smaller games devs can afford to take more risks then a sutdio working for and asnwering to share holders. If I work for me, I can do what I want, if I work for you, its your money and you are the boss. I would strongly argue that the indie scene is where the most inovative and freshest ips are found. And I am not just talking about XBLA, PSN, eShop, often times quality, fresh new IP can indeed be found there. But to really get to the heart of inovation sometimes you have to look at the Mobile and PC sides of "indie" devolpment. I think that fresh new inovation is why those markets have done so well in recent memory. they offer inexpensive experiences that gamers haven't played to death already. "Proof of concept: There is not a single genre defining game which isn't part of a long standing franchise." Again Minecraft. And in truth every single long standing franchise was once a new IP. Tetris sinlge handedly propeled Gameboy into a mega hit and handheld phenom. Spaceinvaders gave birth to the arcades. Pacman helped drive Atari2600 into more homes then any other game. Halo launched MS into the home console market. I mean you can look almost any where you want and see an example of what I am talking about. Without new ips our industry would shrivel up and die, sales would begin to level off and then drop, pubs would begin to fall out of the industry, gamers would start looking beyond consoles for experiences. Games becomes less captivating. I know I tend to be doom and gloom. But look around. It is the current lack of new and inovative IPs and instead the reliance of franshice brands that is having the most impact on traditional Trip A console markets right now. So in the end, I very much disagree with your pov Ghz. I would even go so far as to say without some serioursly impactful changes and shifts in biz the consoles will lose their dominance and importance in our little hobby. Franchises, while an important staple, can not be soley relied upon to sustain the industry. Because they can't do it. The top grossing franchise will continue to sell, while second and thrid teir IPs continue to fail. Evenetualy leaving a very small handfull of IPs, that I believe, people will tire of. What happens if CoD turns into Tony Hawk or Guitar Hero? The industry needs new IPs to sustain itself. Again, imo. Ireland Michael on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39267 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:03:19 +0000 Ireland Michael 39267@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ New IPs, ideas and innovations are essential for any form of medium to stay alive, and while much stuff is made for entertainment's sake, a degree of personal expression and artistic depth is important to foster new ideas and draw in new audiences. That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sequels. Iterative sequels allow good concepts to be improved upon and evolved over time, (hopefully) making an already polished piece of media better and better. You can look at the inane repetition of Assassin's Creed 1 and how this was improved upon in future games, or Mario's evolution from 2D to 3D as examples of this. A video game sequel is much like a band releasing a new album. It's often similar to what you expetienced from them before, it often has a few new ideas to keep it fresh, sometimes it innovates within itself, and sometimes they get it horribly wrong and it ends up just plane sucking. Sometimes you get a Muse, changing things up a bit with every new release to keep the formula fresh. Other times though... you get a Nickleback, which is the exact same experience every single time, no matter when you jump in. But hey, some people like Nickleback... for reasons I'll never understand, admittedly, but there's no accounting for taste. Right? Whether the sequels are good or not isn't always important, simply because we as a consumer have this little cool thing called "choice". They keep the company alive, and help foster new ideas over time. In both the movie and music industry, even the biggest companies have their own "indie" divisions. Sequels and successful ideas help to ensure that businesses have a comfortable flow of income, and a percentage of this extra income is often funnelled in the smaller divisions specifically to try out new ideas, because every once in a while a new idea becomes the new big thing. tl;dr version: Sequels are great. So are new IPs. And contrary to popular belief, gaming is not lacking in new franchises or ideas, especially if you dive into the indie pool. Enjoy the best of both worlds. GwynbleiddiuM on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39263 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 09:37:17 +0000 GwynbleiddiuM 39263@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Well you're not entirely wrong there, but that doesn't make you dead on right either. The only reason that we have sequels in the first place is because of the fact that someone put together a set of ideas and goals together in form of a new IP and that new IP did well enough on its own to go into sequels. Sequels are not always evolve to a perfect installment in the series, they implement formulas to drag in more attentions from gamers. CoD was a great title back when it was first came out, CoD2 was even better, graphically superior and gameplay was outstanding, CoD4 was a step forward to taking the franchise into new heights and it was successful as well. Then there was a pause in terms of taking the installment to higher grounds, they kept it as is, it feels like this big long pause that no one knows how or wants to experiment with it. The formula evolved into something that assured sales figures. I have problem right there, updated settings but nothing else. I don't dislike CoD for what it become, I just don't care for it anymore. People have the right to enjoy what they want but that doesn't mean new ideas shouldn't be explored at all. Dishonored in my opinion was a great new IP, although it didn't do anything that wasn't done in Thief many years ago, it was a great start for a new franchise. They are experimenting with it I'm sure or rather, I hope. Dragon Age: Origins was also a great new IP and I can assure you no game has engaged me the way DA:O did, but then there came the sequel it was so different in every aspect of the game that I barely managed to identify it as an installment in the Dragon Age universe. It was a horrifying experience going from Dragon Age: Origins to Dragon Age 2 for me personally. All in all, I don't disagree entirely with what you said, but new IPs matter, more than what you think. They make people excited and make them hope for something new, an experience different than what is the norm in the industry today. I also think there's no point in a new IP if you don't want to explore that IP to further grounds, they complete each other, there will be no sequel without a new IP, and there will be no new IPs if we stick to the current IPs that we have. Then comes the fatigue, exhaustion of the same things all over again, which by the way the industry is suffering from it, it's just not a wild spread cancer yet, but it is a threat that exists, I can say I suffer from that myself. New games (read sequels) are rarely satisfying me, I went back to my old games recently. I'm replaying DAO and NWN2 at the moment, after that I'll go back to Morrowind or Baldur's Gate, because in times like these it's refreshing to play those games. They suddenly look more fresh and sweet than anything else out there. OrbitMonkey on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39260 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 09:11:52 +0000 OrbitMonkey 39260@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ What is better? Chicken or the egg? Can't have one without the other. Edo on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39259 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:54:09 +0000 Edo 39259@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Pay no attention what people say about Call of Duty ,I think it's awesome...well most of it anyway...but I play it for campaign mostly so what do I know...yeah it sucks. G1GAHURTZ on "New IP vs Refinement." http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6836#post-39257 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 07:39:02 +0000 G1GAHURTZ 39257@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ The contenders: 1. The highly rated youngster: New gaming IPs that contain new ideas/stories/settings/control methods/etc. 2. The world class, title winning professional: Sequels or iterations within franchises that build on and refine experiences that come with new IPs. Point: What you NIPAs (New IP Army) don't realise, is that all a new IP is, is an appetite whetter. A flawed version, that gives an idea of what might be achievable if they had another 2-3 years. An idea sponge that helps to generate so many ways to improve itself. When it becomes a franchise, that's when you finally get what the original was really intended to be in the first place. The bottom line: It's sequels that innovate the most, and bring the freshest ideas. They are small innovations, but they are there. In many ways, new IPs are a step backwards. All you want is a sequel that corrects the mistakes of the original. The games industry might be calling out for new IPs, but it needs it's leading franchises even more so. New IPs take development funds away from big producers who already have well established franchises. Proof of concept: There is not a single genre defining game which isn't part of a long standing franchise. Platform, puzzle, action, sports, strategy, sim, etc. You name the genre, and the most critically acclaimed game is a sequel. Without these games, the industry would not grow. Discuss.