http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700 Just another bbPress community en-US Thu, 20 Jun 2013 03:27:26 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.vg247.com/forum/search.php http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=4#post-38711 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 22:15:50 +0000 DSB 38711@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I probably should've been clearer OrbitMonkey.</p> <p>When I said serious I didn't mean emotionally grave, fuck knows we aren't running out of that any time soon. I meant serious about the quality of the journalism.</p> <p>Stuart Campbell (as much as I dont like the guy on a personal level) really says it better than I can:</p> <p><a href="http://wosland.podgamer.com/how-911-killed-videogames-journalism/" rel="nofollow">http://wosland.podgamer.com/how-911-killed-videogames-journalism/</a></p> <p>We do have the games press we deserve. Apparently we're satisfied with a bunch of me-too reviewers who just love the fuck out of anything that smells like triple-A - whether due to corruption, bias or just a complete lack of ability to analyze the media they consume - who allow the whole circus to be controlled by overreaching PR paid for by the guys, who also for pay for the ads, that pay everybody's rent.</p> <p>I wouldn't be very critical of a guy who was paying my rent either.</p> <p>Unless people demand something of their journalism, and come around to the fact that they're being shortchanged by these hacks, games journalism will continue to be a monument to everything real journalism shouldn't be. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=4#post-38710 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:36:29 +0000 TheWulf 38710@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Everyone has their own standards of integrity.</p> <p>Rock, Paper, Shotgun is hardly a bastion of it, because they have their own biases, and they lambast based upon that. One example is Alec Meer and how he treats and talks about console users, it's... insidious and poisonous at best. He pulls no punches in regards to how much he -hates- consoles and console gamers. But if you ask me, that sort of baggage is best left at the door.</p> <p>And that's what I find most of the RPS crew has: Baggage. And it just harms professionalism in another way. I guess it's because they're in a comfortable position where everyone is going to support them regardless of this, and that their particular issues aren't as obvious and clear cut. They might not give a game a good score because of pressure, but there might be other factors involved.</p> <p>Like a PC getting an exceptionally good port of a bad game. Because of what Alec and Jim have built themselves up to be, I'll see them write apologetic 'reviews' (if they can be considered that). Reviews in which they'll glaze over all of the flaws and concentrate on how PC-like a game is. Or if a game is designed 'PC first' or 'PC only,' they'll glaze over the fact that it might actually be a bad game.</p> <p>And that's just not a very good way to function. It means that if something is PC exclusive or a good port, it's a good game because of that. It's not a good game because of game mechanics, or because of design, or because of setting, or story, or characters. You know, the things that matter. TotalBiscuit used to fall into this trap, too. But of late he's been getting better about this. I still poke him every time I see him slipping in that regard, though.</p> <p>But what you have to look at is this: We're all only human.</p> <p>Everyone fails in different ways.</p> <p>And to be honest? I find the writing here ta VG24/7 to be more enjoyable and to have more overall integrity than that of RPS (ALL HAIL THE PC MASTER-RACE, RA RA RA... et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum... because that never gets old).</p> <p>And donating the console, Dave? Good move. I can get behind that. I don't think you're a bad guy in any respect. I think you made a mistake. People make mistakes. What pisses me off is that RPS is in this position where they seem to be able to claim that they are perfect examples of life on earth and that they never make mistakes. This really fucking annoys me, because they do, and frequently. (As explained above.)</p> <p>So this looks like brown-nosing and throwing stones. Throwing stones in a glass house, no less.</p> <p>---Edit---</p> <p>Not to mention that Alec's articles over there are patronising, condescending, belittling of the reader's intelligence, and they generally tend to exude hatred. Perhaps self-loathing people enjoy that sort of thing, but I can't read that without feeling large amounts of utter disgust. Really, just read any article by Alec. It quickly got to the point where I could tell it was an article by him without even looking at who wrote it.</p> <p>Is the condescension through the roof? Let's look at who wrote this. Ah, it was Alec. Of course it was Alec. I've never seen a website writer so hateful outside of perhaps the Kotaku/Destructoid sites.</p> <p>I'm just glad that there aren't people like that on VG24/7. I value you guys for that. You make mistakes, and you own up to them. You're responsible. You treat us with respect. You're decent people. Why anyone would prefer having to put up with the likes of Alec Meer over a better site like this one is beyond me.</p> <p>---Edit---</p> <p>One other thing I will add is that if any of you have iOS devices, go check out TouchArcade. They're great guys, over there. They do some brilliant impressions videos, and they just have a fantastic sense of humour, and fun. I just prefer site writers like that rather than the ones who have 'tude, yo.' Because I can't imagine why anyone would want that.</p> <p>More like VG24/7 and TouchArcade, please. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38708 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:03:43 +0000 OrbitMonkey 38708@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>^ I disagree. I think some readers take the subject far too seriously tbh. Theirs passion for your hobby, then theirs delusion that your hobby is on par with real world politics.</p> <p>I'm pretty sure EA are not actually a military junta, hoping to overthrow the Dictator for life Kotick, by buying good BF3 reviews off sleazy journo's.</p> <p>I see videogames journalism on par with sports journalism. An like sports journalism their is going to obviously be impartiality... Because this is a hobby, a pastime. You know who's gonna talk your talk dependent on what games you like etc. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38707 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 18:39:26 +0000 DSB 38707@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Well, like the original article, singling people out just makes it look like a personal beef. The real point of the article is that it's a widespread perception that games journalists aren't to be trusted, and that it's at least in part because they don't care about building their integrity.</p> <p>The problem isn't Dave Cook or VG247 or anyone else, it's more of a Stuart Campbell'esque dystopia in which neither writers nor readers take themselves seriously, so the journalism reflects it. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38706 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:39:23 +0000 Talkar 38706@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@DSB<br /> I think you're on the wrong site if you think journalists should back up what they've written. I've been banned from a couple of journalists articles here because i was questioning what they were writing about. That isn't really standing up for, or backing what you've written :P </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38705 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:51:20 +0000 DSB 38705@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>What I don't get is why he's curling up into a ball now. Why quit when you don't have to?</p> <p>That seems more like panic than anything else, and that's also not what a journalist should do. If you publish something, you make sure you can back it, and then you let the piece speak for itself.</p> <p>Withholding information in a story that's obviously relevant, ditto. What was Tom Bramwell exposed to? Why hint at it, when you could just tell the truth? Isn't that what journalists are supposed to do?</p> <p>I don't know a lot about UK legislation, but I'm guessing you guys still have freedom of the press, and as such, a story reporting the facts is not subject to litigation.</p> <p>His message should've been "I back the story, facts check out. Unleash the kraken."</p> <p>It's weak that Kuchera and Campbell are doing a better job sticking up for him than Bramwell, no matter his motivation. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38700 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:15:02 +0000 No_PUDding 38700@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@Mike, I don't think anyone is missing the point. If you want to talk about the issues Rab's column were referencing and tie it in with the ensuing legal mess. Then it's another fine example of the system being fucked. Wahey. </p> <p>Whether you'd like to discredit it or not, and in the presence of one of the involved parties, there were some of us who wanted to talk about the human and moral aspects of the situation. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38699 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:09:12 +0000 tenthousandgothsonacid 38699@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>.<br /> I think the most shocking revelation to come out of all of this is that Dave Cook is Scottish. I'm not sure I can ever trust him ever again ;) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38697 Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:20:56 +0000 mathare92 38697@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Damn libel threats. </p> <p>Now we won't have any more Lost Humanities, Rab's out of a job, and the actual point he was trying to make in his article is lost in all this hubbub of name censoring. For shame. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38689 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 22:29:10 +0000 Gheritt White 38689@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>A heartfelt hat? Is that more like a trilby or a beanie?</p> <p>EDIT: DAMMIT! You beat me to it! You're good Dave, I'll give you that, but I'll get you next time... just you wait. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38688 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 22:27:40 +0000 Dave Cook 38688@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Just an update guys: me and Rab have kissed and made up.</p> <p>(We didn't kiss)</p> <p>We've known each other for a few years. We had a heartfelt chat on the matter. There is no animosity or bad feeling between us, and never was at any point in all of this.</p> <p>Normal business can now resume.</p> <p>For great justice! </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38686 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:04:35 +0000 manamana 38686@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>^ very good piece, nail on the head, thanks for the link. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38685 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:31:37 +0000 SplatteredHouse 38685@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Of Tom Bramwell, site editor for Eurogamer, he says: "His attempts to defend my position were, if anything, heroic."</p> <p>Jim Sterling also wrote a piece around attitudes, approaches and lessons, and reaction to this over on Gamefront: <a href="http://www.gamefront.com/critics-in-the-headlights/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gamefront.com/critics-in-the-headlights/</a> </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38684 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:23:53 +0000 tenthousandgothsonacid 38684@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>.<br /> RoFlo writes :</p> <p><a href="http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/" rel="nofollow">http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/</a> </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38683 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:15:57 +0000 Talkar 38683@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Just read the OP (yeah i know, late to the party).<br /> And i have to say that the bunch over at Eurogamer are idiots.<br /> Dave, you write some pretty damn good articles. Hell, you even gave away the PS3! </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38682 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:03:18 +0000 manamana 38682@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I just want to say three things:</p> <p>LOLshock94 - best comment ever.</p> <p>Dave Cook is cool and does a really great job.</p> <p>Never listen to whiners. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38681 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:49:05 +0000 ManuOtaku 38681@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Iam here to say that Daves does a great Job Here, i like his style, articles and the way he talks to us the commenters, like he was one of us, is a very humble person, with a nice style for covering articles.</p> <p>Now having said that, i dont know about this story or news in the slightest, becuase i cannot access any of this news related at work, for those filters at work, and probably i wont do, becuase in my free time in my house i play and take care of my family, therefore chances are i will never be inform of this news, and that i will not comment on this issue, also i like to sated that i know whatever is this or however is related to Dave, i think it wouldnt change my image of him as a person and writer. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38674 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:37:14 +0000 DSB 38674@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p><a href="http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/libel-alleged-legal-threats-and-conflicts-of-interest-the-twisted-story-of-" rel="nofollow">http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/libel-alleged-legal-threats-and-conflicts-of-interest-the-twisted-story-of-</a></p> <p>This just stinks to high heaven. </p> <p>Let's see how many others dare to touch this with a ten foot pole. I'm guessing it won't be many. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38673 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:26:51 +0000 LOLshock94 38673@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Can someone please un ban me? </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38672 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:24:33 +0000 BraveArse 38672@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@tenthousand the problem for me, is that he was pointing out the naivety of someone who he said he was sure just liked a game, and that part of the problem was how that /looked/ to the wider world. The trouble with that was that he also couched it in the terms of him "stalking the worst games journos".</p> <p>I realise he's a fan ofq DS, I am too, I imported the Asian Demon's Souls on launch. But he can't surely have seen himself as beyond criticism once he erected such a huge glass house can he? I honestly don't believe he was being paid to do it. But the fact that he did do it after writing that article is either naive, or arrogant. Both of those make it hypocrisy in my eyes. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38671 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:20:49 +0000 DSB 38671@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Mike said it.</p> <p>It's always nasty when you call someone out by name, and I don't think it's neccesary for the article, but I do think games journalism could do with a lot more media criticism. Media criticism in games journalism strikes me as something that only happens on Twitter and Skype, away from most of the prying eyes, and without risking too much in the way of meaningful debate.</p> <p>Chums will be chums. The guy makes a pretty good argument, names or no. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38670 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:13:17 +0000 tenthousandgothsonacid 38670@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>.<br /> @BraveArse I don't see the problem, he's completely obsessed by Dark Souls. It's not as if he gained from retweeting that.</p> <p>His twitter account's gone now too :( </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38669 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:05:51 +0000 SplatteredHouse 38669@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>It sounds as if that article's been sanitized out of purpose.</p> <p>"I can't decide if it's as clear cut as 'If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage.'"</p> <p>In Wainwright's case, that's 100% accurate, though. She's only caused herself increasingly more damage (unlike Dave) since the incident that she began.</p> <p>I HOPE we will have some reflection on the over-arching point of Rab's article. Though understandable for why, it is a pity that discussion probably won't take place in these particular halls. Though, I wish I knew how to view the cat-got-tongue reaction of most every other major site (apart from Penny Arcade) of which has been heard not one peep of ANY part of this, even the serial article. How isolated Is this news? </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38667 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:45:23 +0000 BraveArse 38667@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I'll speak no more of it after this, I promise. But I have to say this retweet of Florence's from yesterday is what made me more angry than anything else. It's either hugely naive, given his article, or massively hypocritical.</p> <p><a href="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pCa4xiKEmmU/UIqKAMD_3sI/AAAAAAAAAgk/OA7rHEd6QzM/s576/Screenshot_2012-10-25-13-04-22-1.png" rel="nofollow">https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pCa4xiKEmmU/UIqKAMD_3sI/AAAAAAAAAgk/OA7rHEd6QzM/s576/Screenshot_2012-10-25-13-04-22-1.png</a></p> <p>Hopefully you'll be able to follow the link. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38662 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:45:13 +0000 tenthousandgothsonacid 38662@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>.<br /> Oddly, they've now edited the original article and now it names no names at all. Including Mr Cook's. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38656 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 06:07:09 +0000 Mike 38656@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>The point you're all missing is, is that the mistake was made in the first place. Yeah, Dave Cook's human, yeah, we could have all made it, yeah, THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT.</p> <p>The whole system is skewed. All of it. EG should be big enough now to get its revenue from Cologne, Clothes and magazines? What's it afraid of? Not being invited to a 5-star resort in California with a few of its exclusives pals to be wined and dined before being shown a super-mega exclusive? Yeah, probably. That's the whole problem.</p> <p>99% of these people aren't journalists. They're guns for hire, at a very, very low price. And you know what happens if you pay peanuts... </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38655 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 05:56:53 +0000 Mike 38655@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>oh dear. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38649 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 01:23:08 +0000 OrbitMonkey 38649@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>ROFL, oh no a writer i like won a PS3 after tweeting a hashtag! I can't trust his reveiws no more!</p> <p>How can I make unbiased purchases of videogames if my fave writer wins a gift off a corporation! </p> <p>Oh thank you nonbitter martyr journo, totally not looking to cause a rumpus for bringing it to my short lived heavily biased attention!</p> <p>Who do you write for btw? No ads of corporations or devs is their? I hate conflicts of interest... </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38646 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:54:41 +0000 No_PUDding 38646@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I don't know. Was it Rab's responsibility to make an example out of those specific incidents? Why should he?</p> <p>I can't decide if it's as clear cut as 'If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage.'</p> <p>There are plenty worse journalistic practices going than that, aren't there? That he didn't get the opportunity to call out.</p> <p>Either way I think this furor is really healthy and positive. It does pave the way forward, making people aware of it from both sides. Audience and journalist alike. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6700&page=3#post-38645 Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:35:53 +0000 El_MUERkO 38645@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>If their careers are damaged then it's them who did the damage. I don't think Dave's will be. Wainwright works for The Sun, so she'll probably get a promotion.</p> <p>As for Rab. He quit because EG edited his article, he wasn't sacked. EG should have backed their man. But done is done.</p> <p>All of the 'journalists' who tweeted for a playstation will likely face some internet stick now and in the future. Hopefully they'll think of it as a life lesson and move on. </p>