http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642 Just another bbPress community en-US Sun, 26 May 2013 00:23:46 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.vg247.com/forum/search.php http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38249 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:29 +0000 DSB 38249@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>No worries bill, I can be pretty prickly myself. I think we're both bothering with this because we care about the subject matter.</p> <p>I think Mikes point is spot on though. You can't rely on things to just come around the corner, you have to be there, and you have to run it.</p> <p>The question for Bobby Kotick is so obvious it hurts "How do you feel about running the most hated corporation in gaming?". </p> <p>The fact that Brian Crecente dutifully sat on his hands and listened to anecdotes about Steve Wynn (which arguably did absolutely nothing to make us understand Kotick or what he's doing) really just makes my stomache turn.</p> <p>I don't know how publishers feel about leaks or how much they actually hurt, but they're definitely not worth passing up an opportunity like that. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38248 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:05:31 +0000 Mike 38248@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I wonder if any site has actually contacted Stanton for further comment. Before he shat himself and lied about it all being lies. </p> <p>Usually when someone in his position levels that kind of criticism, journalists knock his (metaphorical) door down in order to delve deeper and ask further questions. They don't sit on their hands waiting for the story to develop by itself or simply just die. Which is what has happened here. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38247 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:01:20 +0000 dirigiblebill 38247@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>"I want them to trust their own opinions, I want them to show me what they really think, and I want them to give as good as they get."</p> <p>A sound thought in general, I guess :)</p> <p>"If you think people respect you for being easy, I think you're making a mistake. They may find you useful, they may find you harmless, and that might trigger some kind of access, but only because they know they can do that to you."</p> <p>I'd rather be the one they didn't see coming. Take your Crecente piece, for instance. Agreed that it's rather cuddly, but Crecente's also the guy who blew Modern Warfare 3's brains all over the internet. There's a time and a place... <a href="http://kotaku.com/5801226/the-modern-warfare-3-files-exclusive-first-details-on-the-biggest-game-of-2011" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/5801226/the-modern-warfare-3-files-exclusive-first-details-on-the-biggest-game-of-2011</a></p> <p>Interesting to discuss this stuff with you, and apologies for the chippiness earlier. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38246 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:43:32 +0000 DSB 38246@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>It totally worked. We shall overcome!</p> <p>First of all, I wasn't trying to say "There is no good games journalism". There is. The Escapist used to run some amazing articles until they crawled so far up their own asses that all they were capable of publishing was fecal matter.</p> <p><a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_146/4839-Footprints" rel="nofollow">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_146/4839-Footprints</a> </p> <p>That would be my second most favourite piece to the ESPN one.</p> <p>Second of all, like I said I'm totally fine with the vast majority of a 24 hour news cycle being mostly irrelevant. That's the game, anywhere. My problem is that very few people are trying to sweeten that porridge with a bit of what I suppose you could call the sharp pencil.</p> <p>I could say a few things about playing it safe in argueing against the use of poor scantily clad women, or against death threats, which are really only popular with neo nazis and Al Qaeda. But a lot of the others are good, and I think this one deserves a worthy mention:</p> <p><a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-06-a-horse-named-gizmondo-the-inside-story-of-the-worlds-greatest-failed-console" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-06-a-horse-named-gizmondo-the-inside-story-of-the-worlds-greatest-failed-console</a></p> <p>I don't want journalists to go crazy and throw a pie in Gibeaus face, but I do want them to start asking the questions that really matter. I want them to trust their own opinions, I want them to show me what they really think, and I want them to give as good as they get.</p> <p>Maybe Gibeau would get pissed off if you actually tried to challenge his ideas, or god forbid, try to explore how much he truly knows about the games that his own company is producing, but just maybe you'd be setting an example for journalists everywhere, by not only showing up for the appointment, but also making the most of the time you have with the guy. </p> <p>If you think people respect you for being easy, I think you're making a mistake. They may find you useful, they may find you harmless, and that might trigger some kind of access, but only because they know they can do that to you.</p> <p>Example - Brian Crecente sat down with Bobby Kotick and this happened:</p> <p><a href="http://kotaku.com/5559201/a-delightful-chat-with-the-most-hated-man-in-video-games" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/5559201/a-delightful-chat-with-the-most-hated-man-in-video-games</a></p> <p>Why bother to meet with the guy if you're gonna give him a free pass? Crecente basically got himself taken out for lunch and a handjob. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38243 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:55:03 +0000 dirigiblebill 38243@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>“I hope we aren't descending into flame here dirigiblebill, but that sort of snarky defence is precisely what happens whenever someone dares to approach the state of games journalism.”</p> <p>An interesting characterisation of my response, which was intended to puncture what, if you'll forgive me, strongly resembles disproportionate outsider polemic. I'm sure we're both equally guilty of reading into each other's tone. Fair play, then. Let's start over -</p> <p>“Ars Technica, Wired and even Gawker are responsible for a lot of great journalism, but neither of those sites are explicitly games journalism.”</p> <p>OK, if you'd rather narrow the focus to the specialist press, I'll raise you this piece about death threats and Robert Bowling - <a href="http://kotaku.com/5904367/another-day-another-death-threat-from-gamers-to-the-people-who-make-video-games" rel="nofollow">http://kotaku.com/5904367/another-day-another-death-threat-from-gamers-to-the-people-who-make-video-games</a> - this one on Team Bondi from IGN - <a href="http://uk.ign.com/articles/2011/06/24/why-did-la-noire-take-seven-years-to-make" rel="nofollow">http://uk.ign.com/articles/2011/06/24/why-did-la-noire-take-seven-years-to-make</a> – one of VG247's own editorials on sexism - <a href="http://www.vg247.com/2012/04/12/enough-we-must-all-try-to-kick-sexism-out-of-gaming/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vg247.com/2012/04/12/enough-we-must-all-try-to-kick-sexism-out-of-gaming/</a> - Stanton's Free Radical blowout - <a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-04-free-radical-vs-the-monsters" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-04-free-radical-vs-the-monsters</a> - and RPS's history of the FPS (not the generic wiki-paste it sounds like) – <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/19/a-peoples-history-of-the-fps-part-1-the-wad/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/19/a-peoples-history-of-the-fps-part-1-the-wad/</a>. All fabulous examples of either investigative reporting or independent criticism, by my lights at least.</p> <p>“You're not doing yourselves any favors by simply crossing your arms and going "NO we're not!" whenever you get challenged. I think having the debate would be a much better way of dealing with it.”</p> <p>If I'm crossing my arms and yelling “NO!”, that's because in this particular instance there's not much more I can do. OT, it's been alleged that we at OXM (among other publications) are open to bribes. To the best of my knowledge, we aren't. In the absence of any evidence to discuss – and it's surely incumbent on the accuser to offer evidence - I'm at a loss as to where we go from here.</p> <p>As regards your other, rather wide-ranging and intangible comments regarding “the vast majority” - 60 per cent, all IGN staffers, anybody who isn't Stewart Campbell? - I'm not sure how to respond, other than to point out that interrupting Frank Gibeau on tape isn't the only way to “call the bullshit”, and isn't particularly sensible if you're after anything more revealing from the interview than "go to hell". There are other and more subtle ways of reversing the flow, so to speak - how you steer the discussion without appearing to, which particular parts of the resulting transcript you choose to emphasise, or what sort of groundwork you do to accompany the quote.</p> <p>To be honest, what you appear to be asking for isn't so much responsible journalism across the board as the eye-catching humiliation of particular individuals or companies. Am I wrong? And do I sound like any less of a pompous arse? :) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38242 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:27:33 +0000 DSB 38242@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I hope we aren't descending into flame here dirigiblebill, but that sort of snarky defence is precisely what happens whenever someone dares to approach the state of games journalism.</p> <p>Ars Technica, Wired and even Gawker are responsible for a lot of great journalism, but neither of those sites are explicitly games journalism.</p> <p>I'm sad to say it, but this is the best games article I can remember reading:</p> <p><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=100805/madden" rel="nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=100805/madden</a></p> <p>And it's on ESPN!</p> <p>If I had to single out guys who are actually doing it right, my first choice would probably be Ben Kuchera, who does stuff like this:</p> <p><a href="http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/lying-to-get-press-the-seemingly-bought-or-faked-twitter-followers-of-nba-b" rel="nofollow">http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/lying-to-get-press-the-seemingly-bought-or-faked-twitter-followers-of-nba-b</a></p> <p>Quite apropos, Ben Kuchera got the same sort of response from Pat Garratt on Twitter, when he posted an update pointing out that Dave Cook could be suspected of misquoting someone in a way that added juice to a non-story.</p> <p>You're not doing yourselves any favors by simply crossing your arms and going "NO we're not!" whenever you get challenged. I think having the debate would be a much better way of dealing with it.</p> <p>We don't outright disagree on the distribution of content, but lot of what you call rote news and asset drops, could also simply be reduced to mindless microphone holding, or worse yet, product pushing. The vast majority of games journalists are more than happy to let people like Frank Gibeau or Allan Hirschberg talk into a dictaphone unoffended, but they don't seem to have much of an opinion on any of it, and I honestly don't recall the last time I saw a sharp follow-up question in a games related interview. </p> <p>There are so few people out there who actually take a critical approach. Any 24 hour news cycle is going to consist of mostly halfway interesting filler, that's completely fair game, but who is actually challenging the industry in any meaningful way? Who's calling the bullshit, instead of merely spreading it around? </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38241 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:08:28 +0000 Mike 38241@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>No problems, dude. I'm happy for the discussion. Anyway, making people I like grumpy on the internet has become my trademark. :) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38240 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:46:47 +0000 dirigiblebill 38240@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Some outraged sort opened an account on OXM to post a link to a forum post on the issue, yes, but it hasn't exactly stolen Halo 4's thunder for the moment.</p> <p>I'm conscious of a general drift towards being a pompous arse in this thread - apologies for that :) All this makes me a little grumpy, as I'm sure you've deduced. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38239 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:41:37 +0000 Mike 38239@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>But surely your allgience is to your readership, who seem to feel (judging by the various forums threads and whatnot) that is was a story worth reading. </p> <p>The reason almost any an all discussion has been quelled is most likely due to an industry wide silence in the issue. </p> <p>Anyway, I'm making a bigger deal out of this just to make a point. I know for sure the industry is full of good people. (Apart from OXM, of course ;) ) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38238 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:24:41 +0000 dirigiblebill 38238@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>“As to the quote bill, I'm basing it on what I see and read, or rather don't see and read. As in sharp criticism, investigative journalism, and stories that actually dare to challenge a publisher every now and then.”</p> <p>Good grief, what obnoxious ivory tower thinking. There’s plenty of fine investigative journalism and criticism in games reportage. Look at Eurogamer, Edge, Gamasutra – hell, even Gawker Media and IGN on occasion, despite their respective reputations. Gawker published a wonderful piece over the weekend about trolling on Reddit, for instance, and Kotaku is the site that broke Modern Warfare 3 wide open. IGN ran an interesting, divisive series on political correctness a few months back. Naturally, pieces of this kind are outnumbered by the rote news stories and asset drops, but that’s because they take time to produce and there has to be something to fill the gap. In that respect, print definitely has the advantage over online coverage.</p> <p>“You can only write so many sunshine stories, so many interviews run by PR handlers, and so many editorials that defend the industry before people smell a rat.”</p> <p>And I can only read so many blanket, unprovable, polarising insinuations before I begin to suspect that the people who write them aren’t especially interested in contributing to a discussion.</p> <p>“No industry is that squeaky clean, and the games industry much less so.”</p> <p>Agreed. But throwing a tantrum on Twitter is the wrong way to go about probing the depths, and I'm not about to reward such behaviour with coverage. Notwithstanding our differences, Rich is a brilliant writer and reporter - one of the best. If he's sincerely of the belief that "Future is bent", now's the time to put those skills into action.</p> <p>“I think most journalists in most other fields, would feel hard pressed to counter if one of their own accused them of widespread dishonesty.”</p> <p>Good for them.</p> <p>Mike - I’m sure many people would read a story titled "Drunk ex-games journo takes unsubstantiated sideswipes at Future” but that doesn’t make it a story worth reading. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38237 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:02:44 +0000 Mike 38237@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Me and DSB in our tinfoil hats! </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38236 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:01:03 +0000 Mike 38236@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Surely "Drunk ex-games journo takes unsubstantiated sideswipes at Future" is a headline?</p> <p>Just imagine if it was a Times journo, or The Guardian, BBC etc. Whether true or not, whether sober or pissed, it would be printed by another newspaper. </p> <p>The industry wide silence is DEAFENING! ;)</p> <p>(we're through the looking glass people) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38235 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:57:55 +0000 DSB 38235@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Unsubstantiated tosh never makes it into the games press, everyone knows that.</p> <p>So when is the 720 coming out again? I forgot what the latest widely distributed speculation said.</p> <p>As to the quote bill, I'm basing it on what I see and read, or rather don't see and read. As in sharp criticism, investigative journalism, and stories that actually dare to challenge a publisher every now and then.</p> <p>You can only write so many sunshine stories, so many interviews run by PR handlers, and so many editorials that defend the industry before people smell a rat. </p> <p>No industry is that squeaky clean, and the games industry much less so.</p> <p>As for the story itself, you don't have to run one on every rumor you see on an internet forum, fortunately, but I think most journalists in most other fields, would feel hard pressed to counter if one of their own accused them of widespread dishonesty.</p> <p>And if that insider is indeed a drunken fuckwit, then that article would be so much easier to write. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38234 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:57:00 +0000 Mike 38234@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>So he got drunk and thought he'd come home, post libel lies on Twitter, then get told by a couple of other editors to pipe down, then all of a sudden he comes out and says what he said was a lie - and you're telling me that's not a story?</p> <p>Anyway, what he said would've got printed before he had a chance to retract any of it. His retraction is news in itself.</p> <p>THAT'S TWO NEWS STORIES! :) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38233 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:11:20 +0000 dirigiblebill 38233@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>If we're talking inebriated one-liners on a writer's social media channel - one-liners, I might add, that have now been branded "lies" by their own author - then a big fat "yes" to both questions. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38232 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:05:01 +0000 Mike 38232@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>So if Tom Bramwell came out and said something equally as condemning, it's simply not news because he has no hard evidence to back it up?</p> <p>What if Pat quit the industry and came out and said it? Baseless because he has no documentation?</p> <p>Come on. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38231 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:33:41 +0000 dirigiblebill 38231@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I wouldn't presume to guess why he Tweeted what he did, other than that he'd been drinking and hasn't been getting on marvellously with CVG lately. Might want to refer to his blog.</p> <p>"an ex-journalist leveling those kinds of claims against the industry is news. It just is."</p> <p>Funnily enough, I don't generally fall over myself to report that somebody's drunkenly accused me (via Twitter, no less) of deceiving the public for my own gain. I'm not sure what baseless outbursts of this kind add to the on-going conversation about journalistic standards, or why anybody would want to read them. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38230 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:11:06 +0000 Mike 38230@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Awesome. So why did Stanton lie?</p> <p>Also, just because a story is unsubstantiated, it doesn't mean the source of the story doesn't have some weight behind it, does it? It's not as though I've said it. It was a very experienced, respected games journalist.</p> <p>I can't believe you don't think it's newsworthy? In fact, I know it is, whether it's bullshit or not, an ex-journalist leveling those kinds of claims against the industry is news. It just is. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38227 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:05:26 +0000 dirigiblebill 38227@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I'm OXM's online editor, Mike, and we didn't run the story because it's unsubstantiated tosh. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38226 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 12:35:14 +0000 Mike 38226@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@bill - Who do you work for? Why not ask your boss why they didn't run the story? :) </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38219 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:26:48 +0000 Ireland Michael 38219@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@dirigiblebill Companies won't directly demand you put up a certain score, but they'll sure as hell start tightening the noose if you don't keep them high.</p> <p>This is where the whole "7 is a bad score" mentality came from. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642&page=2#post-38218 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:11:40 +0000 dirigiblebill 38218@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>"And games reporters in turn probably want to forget that they back that sort of nonsense on a daily basis, without ever raising a flag on any of it."</p> <p>I'd be interested to know what you're basing that on, old fruit.</p> <p>Again, I've yet to encounter score-fixing at Future. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38211 Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:37:27 +0000 DSB 38211@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Definitely makes it tempting to slap on the tinfoil hat.</p> <p>I think the truth is that every field of journalism has problems handling criticism.</p> <p>But most of them will still indulge in it. This sort of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach is pretty unique.</p> <p>Again I think games journalism suffers from anxiety. They're obviously far too close to the multi-billion dollar businesses they're covering, and secondly I don't think games journalists sport the kinds of diplomas that you'd find in a lot of other kinds of journalism. They may be great writers, but I'm not sure they grasp that responsibility.</p> <p>Running a story like that would be good for the profession and ultimately the industry, but not for the people writing it. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38183 Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:34:42 +0000 Mike 38183@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>Seriously though, if a well-respected journo in any other media came out and said something like this, it would be published. I think it's extremely difficult for games journalism to be taken seriously when accusations of this nature from a well-respected journalist don't make the news.</p> <p>Unless, of course, Stanton is mentally ill and no-one wants that brought to attention or something. Very strange, imo. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38173 Mon, 15 Oct 2012 06:02:07 +0000 Telepathic.Geometry 38173@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@Mike: My guess is that in EG's case, it was probably mostly number 3. To prevent any shit from impacting forcefully with any fans, they probably just let the story die. They even had a (very interesting) podcast about reviews, and they never really brought up the issue of transparency or integrity on the journos side. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38171 Mon, 15 Oct 2012 00:31:54 +0000 AHA-Lambda 38171@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@ Mike - can I just say it defnintely didn't go unnoticed; Isaw Jim Sterling of Destructoid and Pat from this site both talk to him on twitter, but neither site mentioned this story. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38170 Mon, 15 Oct 2012 00:23:38 +0000 DSB 38170@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>I would go with the obvious answers.</p> <p>The story is ignored, like pretty much any media criticism in games journalism, because it strikes a nerve that no one wants struck.</p> <p>People want their Metacritic scores. They don't want to be told how ridiculously flawed the method behind them is. People want a predictable consensus of positive opinions of the games they buy, because it allows them to believe that they're smart and informed consumers, rather than just compulsive, gluttonous ones.</p> <p>And games reporters in turn probably want to forget that they back that sort of nonsense on a daily basis, without ever raising a flag on any of it.</p> <p>It's possible that he's lying, but I can't make sense of that. If he just wanted to flip people the bird, he could've done so anonymously, RAM Raider style. If your sole purpose is to take someone down, you would want to be smart about it, no?</p> <p>I think it's safe to assume that it hurts his career.</p> <p>That's a shame though. It shouldn't be impossible to build a career on telling the truth, especially in a form of journalism. </p> <p>I think the reason why people worshipped Old Man Murray is because, even though they were satirical, they were also utterly merciless, and they revelled in having an opinion, instead of constantly trying to apologize for it (like so many games journalists out there).</p> <p>I think it's healthy to find out early whether you want to be popular or whether you want to be trusted. Games journalism as a field seems to me like a place, where most of the people in it are constantly stuck in a grey area between the two. </p> <p>It's a real shame, confusion and apprehension doesn't make for very good journalism. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38164 Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:44:02 +0000 Mike 38164@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>What's weird is that no site that's worth anything actually ran the story. Is that because Stanton was lying (why would he?) or because he was absolutely right and no-one dared? Or 3) he's a good mate and if they did bring loads of attention to him it could ruin the man?</p> <p>Probably a bit of all 3. </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38137 Sat, 13 Oct 2012 08:05:17 +0000 Telepathic.Geometry 38137@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>@Zinc: I reckoned it was probably that site has a bad language fix-o-bot that replaces all "fuck"s with "strawberry float"s... </p> http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642#post-38123 Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:42:19 +0000 Stardog 38123@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ <p>"Any info to spill on Cod reviews/ad pressure?<br /> Actually, no. COD always earned the reviews, good series"</p> <p>He voided his entire opinion here. </p>