VG247 Forum » Topic: Windows 8

VG247 Forum » Topic: Windows 8 http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187 Just another bbPress community en-US Thu, 23 May 2013 04:43:33 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.vg247.com/forum/search.php Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35987 Mon, 13 Aug 2012 06:18:22 +0000 Phoenixblight 35987@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "Anyway, there are a few valid concerns surrounding Windows 8, though they're not the ones that Gabe Newell and company have really raised. An immediate worry is UEFI - the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface. Microsoft, if they decide to be particularly nefarious, could use their leverage to force hardware manufacturers to turn the PC into a closed platform, meaning that you can't install Linux on such a computer." That is not happening though Most of the big contenders of Linux will have UEFI that they paid for. TheWulf on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35984 Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:05:17 +0000 TheWulf 35984@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ DSB being a cowardly jerk and attacking people where the weasel believes they'll never see? Imagine that. I point out he's making himself look a bit foolish in the comments sections of a few articles... and he gets so astoundingly neurotic about it that he ends up transforming himself into the boy who cried TheWulf. It's nice to know that I make you so insecure that you feel the need to do this, DSB. Good job. You're a credit to us all. Anyway, there are a few valid concerns surrounding Windows 8, though they're not the ones that Gabe Newell and company have really raised. An immediate worry is UEFI - the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface. Microsoft, if they decide to be particularly nefarious, could use their leverage to force hardware manufacturers to turn the PC into a closed platform, meaning that you can't install Linux on such a computer. Now, consider: If they lock out Linux and then they add restrictions against installing applications like Steam later on, it could turn bad. It could. Will it likely? Probably not. It's likely a lot of fear-mongering and FUD. But there are a few things about all this that do make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. One of the reasons I enjoy the PC as a platform is because it's open - I can mod, I can tinker, and I feel like a PC is truly mine in ways that a console or an iOS device isn't. Now, that's not to say that iOS devices or consoles are bad, they aren't. I own a console and an iOS device, but it saddens me that I can never mod games, I can never get under the hood. If there's something that's bothering me, I can't fix it. If Microsoft were amazingly myopic to the big picture, they might believe that locking the PC down and making it the home equivalent to the surface might actually be the way to make the most profits. But they've mostly been more sensible than that, and do they really want to incur the wrath of International courts, again? The US and the EU have both torn chunks out of them. I don't think they want that noise. And imagine what sort of court case could be raised against them if they were caught in the act of leveraging hardware manufacturers into turning the PC into a closed platform. Now, I'm smart enough to know this, so I'm going to believe that they definitely are, and that it'll be really foolish to actually do any of what the FUD suggests might happen. I'm going to keep an eye open, but the sky isn't falling. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35911 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:56:53 +0000 Phoenixblight 35911@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Linux is good if you are using the basics like word processing, internet browsing but if you need a windows dependent software like I had mentioned earlier than people flock to Windows. I have rarely seen Linux used the only time I would see it is if the sys or network adminstrator was using it on their laptop but the actual development? Nope not all. I use it occasionally if I am forced to use an Apple PC. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35910 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:28:43 +0000 DSB 35910@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ From what I hear, Linux adoption is at an all time high. <a href="http://www.datamation.com/osrc/article.php/3898206/LinuxCon-Analysts-Linux-Is-Winning.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.datamation.com/osrc/article.php/3898206/LinuxCon-Analysts-Linux-Is-Winning.htm</a> Why waste money on an expensive corporate license if you can pay much less and achieve the same efficiency? It's not hard to make the common end user pay extra for something because of style or trends, but for a corporation, it's all about the bottom line. Which isn't to say anything for Linux as an actual competitor to Windows, or Valves chances of success, but it would be foolish to use government and corporate interests as an example. They love Linux. The money they save is always needed elsewhere. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35907 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:30:07 +0000 Phoenixblight 35907@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Linux is a non-threat with no support from hardware manufacturers and software developer. Linux is nothing other than a gimped version of OS and Steam putting their client will do nothing for Linux not with out a lot of support. Its why linux users dual boot into WIndows especially the developers who use WIndows specific software like AUtodesk, scaleform, bink, adobe products. Linux has a looooong way to go to catch up. If AUtodesk or Adobe said WIndows were bad mojo those would be the people I would listen to not a guy that runs a storefront or a person that runs a browser least used than IE. Which they have said nothing of the sort and neither has anyone else. Valve is not the only thing needed to make Linux successful. Not to mention that Governments widely use WIndows. You would need one really bad apple for MS to drop off the face of the map and Linux come on top. People would be more than likely go to apple before linux. " both of which would only apply to a future iteration of windows, and only if it was a closed platform." Again slippery slope argument. MS is not going to ignore doing things knowing that it could damage their potential revenue if they do something like bring the PC back into the 90s. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35906 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:57:21 +0000 DSB 35906@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ *Stupid doublepost* DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35905 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:56:47 +0000 DSB 35905@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ I think it's pretty obvious that that's exactly what they mean, but they aren't going to make any moves until Microsoft pulls the trigger. Newell said Valve were hedging their bets by exploring Ubuntu, and he mentioned margins being destroyed, both of which would only apply to a future iteration of windows, and only if it was a closed platform. None of that has any bearing on an optional storefront, which is little more than harmless competition. Microsoft are a lot worse at selling their stuff than EA, so I don't see why anyone would fear them. The app store on the PC is only aimed at Metro apps anyway, so I don't see why that was ever considered a point of contention. Time will tell. If those fears prove to be right, you'll get some very specific speeches on why it's bad from a wide range of top executives, most of whom will be scrambling for an alternative to Windows. If they prove to be wrong, none of those guys will be rocking the boat, but we'll still have an accessible, open platform full of all the software we could ever want. And no matter which one it is, Valve are still going to spend millions trying to bring gaming to Linux. It's a win/win. Pun intended. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187&page=2#post-35904 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:51:53 +0000 Phoenixblight 35904@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Well that is the only thing that I have found to be the "fears" of by developers and misinformed people especially with the "closed market" comments. WIndows 8 is as closed as WIndows 7. So if Gabe and other people want to go in depth why WIndows 8 is bad other than the slippery slope argument they are welcome to but other than Metro horrible design I have found nothing for "Windows 8 to be a catastrophe". That comment is as bad as a compiler "There is an error between the first line and the last line." DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35903 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:31:14 +0000 DSB 35903@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ It's been widely available that the App Store in the PC version would be fully optional since at least December. <a href="http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/12/win-8-app-store-revealed-more-money-for-devs-beta-in-late-february/" rel="nofollow">http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/12/win-8-app-store-revealed-more-money-for-devs-beta-in-late-february/</a> That was never the issue. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35902 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:19:43 +0000 Phoenixblight 35902@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "It's a neccesary part of their job to know. If you think they're freaking out over a public preview that's available to everybody, I think that's shockingly naive. Do they wait for The Journal to tell them what's up or down on Wallstreet too? Come on now..." Did I say that? I said the exact same version as the developers. WIndows did have another version of WIndows 8 explicitly for the developers that is where I got the info that WIndows 8 app store will not be forced on the developers. Herp Derp. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35901 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:10:02 +0000 DSB 35901@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Now we're just running in circles. I'm pretty sure the head of a major games, investment or technology company knows a bit more about what's going on at Microsoft, than what they get from a shareware preview. It's a neccesary part of their job to know. If you think they're freaking out over a public preview that's available to everybody, I think that's shockingly naive. Do they wait for The Journal to tell them what's up or down on Wallstreet too? Come on now... For the fifth or sixth or seventh time, I haven't formed any sort of conclusion as to what Microsoft are doing. You're the only one in this debate who seems to think he knows exactly what's going on. All I know is that the industries who depend on Windows as a platform, are concerned with what they know about Microsofts strategy. Given Microsofts history, I think it sounds perfectly plausible that they'd make the move from running two closed platforms, to a full three. I don't mind repeating that eight, nine, or ten times if it really takes that long to sink in. Although I guess you can just keep yapping about paranoia, and disregard any actual indication that would support plausibility. In which case I'll just start calling you TheWulf. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35900 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:51:41 +0000 Phoenixblight 35900@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "I know you're awfully fixated on Valve PB, but that simply makes no sense at all. And why the hell would Mozilla or indie developers care about that? More competition between distributors would be great for them. A closed platform wouldn't." There is no closed platform we have gone over this. Gabe saw the exact same WIndows 8 that every developer has. THey didn't see some super secret evil version. "They have no reason to start burning any bridges at the moment, but obviously they think it's worth directing peoples attention to what Microsoft are doing at this stage." Thats why they haven't gone in detail why Windows 8 is bad other than cryptic messages to fuel people' paranoia like yours. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35899 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:26:35 +0000 DSB 35899@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ I think the idea that Valve would see an optional Microsoft client as a threat is just utterly laughable. Origin is a much bigger threat to Valves business, because it actually has a major publisher of PC games backing it. Microsoft aren't a major publisher, and they don't have a PC gaming brand, beyond a DRM client that allows games to commit commercial suicide, and which every gamer hates. I know you're awfully fixated on Valve PB, but that simply makes no sense at all. And why the hell would Mozilla or indie developers care about that? More competition between distributors would be great for them. A closed platform wouldn't. @Michael Right, and that's also why you're seeing guys like Smedley, Pardo and Newell holding back, instead of really getting into it. There's no panic, and no draconian measures being taken. Stardock will keep making desktop software, Valve will keep selling Microsoft Studios or GFWL games, and they'll keep the powder dry for when or if this does happen. They have no reason to start burning any bridges at the moment, but obviously they think it's worth directing peoples attention to what Microsoft are doing at this stage. Ireland Michael on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35898 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:00:38 +0000 Ireland Michael 35898@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @DSB, the problem is that it's a drill and not an actual emergency. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35897 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:53:42 +0000 Phoenixblight 35897@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Valve feel threatened because Windows will be offering an a store that comes with every Windows 8 device that devs can put their games into at no cost pay a small fee to advertise their games and reap their rewards which MS doesn't take a cut out of. That is why Gabe is scared every user can just go to the windows app store and get a game or an app and not need to go through steam which takes a cut from every sell. That is why Gabe is putting the client on Linux to hedge his bets this app also threatens google who also have a similar store. See why I don't listen to the competitors because windows 8 store competes with them so naturally they are going to be against it. I would be doing the same thing in any other discussion. If a well known third party comes in with no investment in the competition says Windows is the worst thing to happen since HIV. I would be more inclined to listen to them. Valve,Blizzard,Stardock all have a digital store front which will compete with windows. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35895 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:42:59 +0000 DSB 35895@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ I'm not the one with a foregone conclusion, I just think it's worth paying attention when several industries sound the alarm. Time will tell. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35894 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:55:07 +0000 Phoenixblight 35894@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ I am done arguing with you its pointless and stupid especially since you don't have any evidence other than analysts and competitors conjecture. You can put your bets into whatever doomsday belief you have but there is no evidence of what you say other than people that are paid to make stuff up and what MS competitors have to say who are naturally bias. My point of this article was to prove that WIndows 8 is not doing what people believed where the app store will be forced on developers and that they will have to pay a percentage for it. My job is done. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35893 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:16:03 +0000 DSB 35893@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ No one is talking about Windows 8 being the platform that introduced it, they were purely talking about it as a prototype for a closed platform. "Windows 8 is a transitional product -- Microsoft's awkward teenage stage of growing into a post-PC world," says Sarah Rotman Epps, an analyst at Forrester Research. "ARM (ARMH) and Metro are the future of the Windows platform, but they're not ready to completely get rid of the desktop just yet." Would you mind showing me who is actually talking about Windows 8 as being the introduction of that system? I haven't seen it anywhere. Have you provided any links to those Unity, Take Two and Epic statements? I also don't see them anywhere, and I also don't quite see how one tech company, one small publisher, and one developer (whose biggest franchise is a 360 exclusive) equals anywhere near the weight of companies like Google, Valve and Sony. There's quite a big difference between a merger that would create a virtual monopoly, and a company simply defining a business model for its very own product, wouldn't you say? Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35892 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:12:52 +0000 Phoenixblight 35892@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "that a united tech and games industry are apparently quite concerned that it's going to happen." not as United as you may think EPic, Take Two and Unity engine are for Windows 8. You say I am putting words in others mouth but here you are doing the exact same thing. "There's no proof we know of, but there's obviously enough talk to make analysts suggest that that's the entire basis of Microsofts strategy going forward, and certainly enough to make everyone from Google and Mozilla to Blizzard and SOE call it a disaster." Because they had believed that MS was doing the same closed platform as their phone and tablet devices but they aren't. I haven't seen Google exactly pushing their OS beyond the chromebook if WIndows 8 is such a disaster than it would be time to putting more effort in taking MS down, no? As far as the anti-trust laws go its the same reason why ATT couldn't buy out Tmobile since Tmobile and ATT holds majority of the phone market, the US government blocked ATT from buying Tmobile. Apple has no where near as much control as WIndows so Windows doing something like RT on the PC market would be doing something similar where it gave windows all the control over the majority of the PC market which is in violation of the anti-trust law. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35891 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:58:49 +0000 DSB 35891@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Fair enough PB, show me those anti-trust laws, and I'll take that argument seriously :) I'm not argueing anything, except the fact that I find it very conspicuous that most businesses who are currently using Windows as a major avenue for business, are finding it worth their while to voice their concerns. You have no idea what Gabe Newell was specifically referring to when he called Windows 8 a catastrophe, and neither do I, so drawing a conclusion seems awfully arrogant. Obviously, according to research analysts, Windows 8 signifies a new strategy on the part of Microsoft, so why wouldn't he be referring to what it signifies for the industry as a whole? There's no proof we know of, but there's obviously a lot of indications, and certainly an agreement among the people watching, that that's the entire basis of Microsofts strategy going forward. Enough to make everyone from Google and Mozilla to Blizzard and SOE call it a disaster. Did they just get out of bed in the morning and decide to call Microsoft out for no reason? I find that somewhat unlikely. You can keep putting words in everybody's mouthes all you care to, but I really don't understand where your faith in Microsoft is coming from. They're already running two closed platforms, they're running one of the worst games DRM services on the market, and they're obviously investing in it, so why wouldn't they make it three for three? Until you come up with an answer to that, that makes any kind of sense - The notion that Apple can get away with, but Microsoft can't really isn't impressive, and has nothing to do with how laws actually work - I reserve the right to note that a united tech and games industry are apparently quite concerned, by the direction taken by Microsoft. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35890 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:01:34 +0000 Phoenixblight 35890@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @Dsb If MS would go the RT route there would be a huge issue with it because it would be violating anti-trust laws. Stop using Apple as a an example because they are only a drop in the pond for the PC market. You want to go with this slippery slope argument go ahead but for now WIndows 8 is not going that direction. BTW Gabe specifically said WIndows 8 is a catastrophe not what it could lead to is one. You are grabbing at straws and just won't let it go. There is no proof of MS enforcing a completely closed market on the PC users so wheres the fire? The fact that Windows is making their smart phone and tablets completely closed like their competitors some how those two things mean the same thing? That is one weak ass argument. DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35889 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:51:10 +0000 DSB 35889@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @Michael Surely you realize the difference between a platform with a jailbreak and one that is actually open. An open platform sustains commercial use, a jailbroken one only sustains the amateur hacking/modding community. I don't see Apple being forced out of their business model based on anti-trust laws. It's Microsofts platform, they can allow or disallow any use of it they care to, as long as it's done in "good faith". Where are the free market options on the PS3, tablets, phones, 360 or the Wii? Seems to me like highly controlled platforms aren't violating any laws. I don't think it matters to Microsoft that they might only have 25% left of their marketshare, if those 25% are actually making them money, where the 98% was not. Do the virtues of shared progress, enterprise and freedom matter more to Microsoft than the potential for profit? I don't think they see it that way. Christopher Jack on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35888 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:17:53 +0000 Christopher Jack 35888@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ Mac gamers just dual boot Windows. If Windows 8 manages to drive away enough market share, it may encourage developers to finally prioritize OpenGL over DirectX- then we will start seeing games launched simultaneously across all PC systems. For the Linux side of things, we'll still need to see much more support from both Nvidia & AMD before it ever becomes a viable choice for gaming. Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35886 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:11:45 +0000 Phoenixblight 35886@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "And if that was the case, I sort of find it hard to believe that Linux would suddenly jump to the forefront for gaming when the Mac OS hasn't." Yeah MS would have to do something extremely horrible for OEMs, gpu manufacturers, devs to suddenly jump ship to Linux which no one seems to be doing that with WIndows 8. viralshag on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35885 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:49:16 +0000 viralshag 35885@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @PB, Ok, so would you say Linux and Macs are on the same sort of level when it comes to gaming. I just find it funny that considering how popular Macs are these days, the platform still seems to be a second thought when it comes to game development. And if that was the case, I sort of find it hard to believe that Linux would suddenly jump to the forefront for gaming when the Mac OS hasn't. Again, I'm pretty clueless about the ins and outs of it, so this is all rather fascinating :P Phoenixblight on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35884 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:45:14 +0000 Phoenixblight 35884@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ "While I don't really have any idea of this sort of thing, would Linux being a viable gaming platform really mean that much?" At the moment no. You can get compatiability layers like WINE or run Windows on a virtual machine which can work for most pieces of software but for games Linux users usually just dual boot into Windows and play games because Windows is supported by Nvidia and AMD where the gpu manufacturers rarely make drivers for Linux. Then developers especially triple A ones rarely port a Linux version. Steam will be doing Linux client but it will only work with their games and devs that actually make a linux version so it will still be better just going back into windows. Ireland Michael on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35882 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:25:19 +0000 Ireland Michael 35882@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @DSB Because nobody would support it. Microsoft knows from countless experience that any attempt to close off Windows will never succeed, because the PC owners will never, ever support it. They'll just hack it open again. That and the fact that the Pc space is so damn huge and spread out that it would never actually be possible to contain it. Microsoft would probably be forced out of that kind of approach due to anti-monopolization laws anyway. viralshag on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35881 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:09:12 +0000 viralshag 35881@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ U mad bro? DSB on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35880 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:08:30 +0000 DSB 35880@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ I'm heading downstream without a paddle? :p It would be paranoid to be concerned about something for no reason what so ever. In this case, I'm concerned that industry leaders - across several different industries - are concerned, and that analysts are apparently backing those concerns as being fully credible. These aren't bored housewives, who need to make shit up for the thrill of it. Ultimately you can't prove a negative, and none of us have access to any of their sources, so there's really no closure here for any of us. But just for the sake of argument, why wouldn't Microsoft actually do it? Ireland Michael on "Windows 8" http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6187#post-35879 Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:42:51 +0000 Ireland Michael 35879@http://www.vg247.com/forum/ @DSB You're being paranoid. You're afraid of a slippery slope that doesn't even exist. You're clutching st straws. Any other overused phrase I can use? =P