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Right now, 2,807 people have signed the AC: Unity female character petition

Thursday, 12th June 2014 09:32 GMT By Dave Cook

Assassin’s Creed: Unity’s lack of female characters has triggered much debate among the gaming community, and players are now signing a petition to express their discontent over the matter.

assassins_creed_unity_e3_2014_2

At the time of writing the ‘Discontent at lack of representation in AC: Unity protagonists’ petition sits at 2,807 names, and was founded by UK resident Jessica Smith.

Smith writes, “This petition has been created to express the disappointment of Ubisoft fans at the lack of representation of people of colour and females in the four-protagonist line-up of the upcoming Assassin’s Creed: Unity.

“We believe that the Assassin’s Creed series, a franchise with infinite scope, does not reflect the needs of its demographic well enough: the lack of a female character has been referred to as “unfortunate, but…a reality of game development”, and the possibility of an ethnic minority protagonist seems to have not even been breached.

“Representation is important, and in a game which boasts 5000 NPCs, this is not good enough.”

It follows Ubisoft’s rather limp explanation as to why no female protagonists appeared in its Assassin’s Creed: Unity E3 2014 co-op footage, and indeed the game at large.

After signing the ballot, Tamara St.Jean from Calgary wrote, “The success of Aveline as both a woman and a PoC should be enough proof of your fans’ desire to see a more varied spectrum of protagonists. The fact that Ubisoft would prefer pumping out a game sooner than take the extra time they claim it would take to develop a female lead only speaks to me as sloppy and lazy.

“Claiming work would have been doubled as the primary excuse for the exclusion of at least ONE female lead is basically telling fans “we don’t feel like putting in the effort to see you happy, we don’t want to put forth the effort to represent women or minorities because it’s easier to make white male after white male after white male”.

“This speaks apathy to the desires of fans. This speaks laziness. It’s time to clean up before fans lose faith.”

Britain’s Bern Steel adds, “I love the Assassin’s creed series, but this has just felt like a slap to the face to me. Women were a core part of the French revolution and it saddens me to see you waste opportunities to explore more of the world and be more historically accurate.”

Where do your thoughts lie on the matter? Let’s hear it below.

Via Eurogamer.

Latest

231 Comments

  1. Joe Musashi

    Fuck yeah! Internet petitions!

    JM

    #1 4 months ago
  2. Dave Cook

    I’m behind this, and I don’t care if that makes me a fucking social justice warrior or whatever puerile label internet people have for those willing to express an opinion.

    #2 4 months ago
  3. Joe Musashi

    The principle is fine.
    The one-sided nature of the debate is poor.
    The execution is atrocious.

    JM

    #3 4 months ago
  4. Legendaryboss

    Part seven. Less than 3000? Out of the millions that buy it yearly? Oh dear.

    #4 4 months ago
  5. stagename

    So those people will be happy by forcing the devs to just slap a female character into the game? I don’t understand.

    #5 4 months ago
  6. aseddon130

    This whole ‘women in games’ argument is just plain silly and frankly quite boring, next up … Petition to turn Lara Croft into a man!

    #6 4 months ago
  7. Dave Cook

    @stagename Are you male? If so, then you can never fully understand.

    #7 4 months ago
  8. tezzer1985

    This is dumb, Ubisoft have made an SP game, with an COOP option.

    Just like all main AC games, they have gone with a main male lead, so if your always the main character, why would it switch to a female character for no reason, makes no sense.

    Unfortunately the mulitplayer is not in this years game, which lets you pick female characters. Again I don’t see why they should change the main character they have decided to star in the game.

    Being a gamer is so embarassing at times, people find the dumbest shit, to turn into something big, we have some very imature gamers, and even worst still, we have some awful game Journalists in this industry

    #8 4 months ago
  9. Joe Musashi

    Every individual that signs the petition should, for the sake of transparency, declare whether they bought AC: Liberation.

    JM

    #9 4 months ago
  10. Tvz

    I’ve been working in games for years and I confirm what Ubi said, there are several months of development needed to integrate a new main character, and between the coding, the modelling, the motion capture, the animation, the voice recording and all the tests (not even talking about the consequences on objects such as clothes or different UIs) it would take a huge amount of ressources a lot of time to do and I don’t believe that the AC team has the time nor the budget for that kind of luxury

    #10 4 months ago
  11. Legendaryboss

    @Dave Cook What a load of non-sense.

    #11 4 months ago
  12. Dave Cook

    @Tvz DLC.

    #12 4 months ago
  13. Joe Musashi

    @12 The DLC suggestion has already been dismissed by vocal campaigners.

    JM

    #13 4 months ago
  14. YoungZer0

    @Dave Cook

    Same goes for you, I guess. Don’t make this a gender issue, because it isn’t. As I mentioned earlier, the majority of female players I know don’t care about that sort of thing. This is about entitlement and nothing else.

    #14 4 months ago
  15. FerretPersona

    @Joe Musashi – I just signed the petition – yes I have bought AC Liberation. Twice infact, once on Vita and then the HD version on PS3.

    I’m male. I enjoy playing games as male and female characters and while I do hate the fact that there are so few games with female leads these days, to me this isn’t about the protagonist of Unity. If they want to have yet another male protagonist, then that’s fine. But Ubi have already admitted that they planned to have female characters available in co-op until “recently” and since they ARE allowing you to customise your co-op version of the male protagonist beyond recognition there really isn’t any excuse for not putting in the extra effort required to make non-white, non-male co-op avatars available.

    It’s sad that the option to play as a female character is seen as a “nice to have if we can” rather than a “need to have because after all, there’s just as many women in the world as there are men”. It’s not about shoe-horning. And it’s not about every game ever made needing a female playable character. It’s about a game that has featured diversity in it’s multiplayer before, not including diversity this time around because they basically can’t be arsed.

    #15 4 months ago
  16. Dave Cook

    @YoungZer0 I’ll have to politely disagree on the entitlement thing. There was no reason not to add female avatars into multiplayer from the start. None. I understand it’ll be hard for them to add them pre-launch due to the mo-cap assets and such, but I see this as an oversight. I don’t think Ubisoft are being outwardly sexist, not at all, just a bit foolish.

    If you disagree then that’s sincerely fine.

    #16 4 months ago
  17. silkvg247

    So this new style of multiplayer in Watchdogs, “Unity” & FC4..

    The rationale is that you’re the main character right? I’m good with that. I’ve never complained about solo games having a male lead, most games are like that anyway.

    Where it falls down is arguing that you see the other players as “random” NPCs.. however the so called “random” NPCs can only ever be male, correct? If I’m incorrect then I will humbly apologise, as there is no issue at all. If I’m correct then this is the flaw in the argument.

    Randomize the other players you see as any gender/race, taking from the huge palette of NPCs, and we have a winner. Heck even allow the player to pick a skin he’ll appear with in other player’s games. Don’t even see why that is a technical challenge honestly.

    I’m guessing the female NPCs don’t have the full set of character attack animations but so bloody what.. that isn’t a significant amount of work, it’s certainly not double. This senior developer is sick of the masses being fed pure horse shit as excuses.

    I also wish I knew why the guys that have no rationale to argue against this keep harping on. You don’t care? Fine, you agree it doesn’t affect you so let’s get it changed then. You do care and you wouldn’t buy the game if it included females? LOL, good luck in future life, kid. You do care but only in so much as you want to shoot other people down rather than give any argument why this would make your life worse in any way? Maybe you need a lesson in human empathy.

    #17 4 months ago
  18. YoungZer0

    @Joe Musashi

    Hey, at least we know who to thank when a bug-ridden AC comes out with a female coop character.

    #18 4 months ago
  19. humanfish

    My thoughts? Bollocks to all Internet petitions.

    #19 4 months ago
  20. silkvg247

    @Joe well, we already pay for and are taxed on “luxury” products which allow us to stop our blood flowing all over the floor per month, so why not charge us for the “luxury” of being allowed to exist in games. Why the hell not.

    I think we should also pay for breathing, it’s not fair that we exist on the same planet and we consume vital resources that men should have sole access to.

    #20 4 months ago
  21. The_Red

    Regardless of ones opinion about this petition, I think it’s just hilarious (and a bit sad) that a game called “UNITY” excludes half of the human population because they think “females” are an additional “feature”.

    Imagine if they though the same about males: Yeah, we have this beautiful and huge city but sadly, you can’t see the player model. We had “male characters” as a feature but due to budgeting limitation and time pressures , we had to cut it.

    #21 4 months ago
  22. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247

    Are you a game dev? Because you keep saying that you don’t see what’s so difficult about it. The ones that I know are game devs say the complete opposite.

    #22 4 months ago
  23. Legendaryboss

    I see no Skullgirls petition via a quick google check. I don’t see male staff here voicing out their disgust on that. To sum it up an all female star studded cast, which launched to no outrage by the male community. Do we need more examples of double standards?

    #23 4 months ago
  24. Dave Cook

    @Legendaryboss No, because men have had it pretty good in games for decades now. That’s why we don’t get pissy when there’s a female fronted game. That, and game marketing firms decree that all game women need to be hot, so why would teen guys complain?

    Silly riposte.

    #24 4 months ago
  25. Joe Musashi

    @15 Excellent. So that’s at least 1 out of 2807 then.

    @SilkVG247, your knee-jerk histrionics and laughable straw-clutching are irrelevant to the issue. They further the charicature of gender and do you and any argument you may have more harm than good.

    ..

    One party demands empathy, at the other party’s considerable expense whilst refusing to offer any empathy themselves. One party cries out against being dismissed and disregarded, whilst dismissing and disregarding the concerns of the other party.

    This is a spectacularly bad way to make a point about equality and inclusion.

    JM

    #25 4 months ago
  26. Dave Cook

    Have we also all forgotten that this petition isn’t to add female protagonist into Unity? It’s simply to express disappointment at the fact.

    #26 4 months ago
  27. FerretPersona

    @25 – I’m sorry… what considerable expense? What damage does it do to you?

    #27 4 months ago
  28. Legendaryboss

    Call it whatever you want @Dave Cook, its double standards either way. Justification is pointless because its the exact same situation, only one side didn’t outrage and launch a petition.

    #28 4 months ago
  29. Dave Cook

    @Legendaryboss Strongly disagree. It’s not double standards as that implies some level of equality on the matter. This is a far from equal issue.

    #29 4 months ago
  30. Joe Musashi

    @27 It doesn’t do any damage to me. I’m not either of the parties I referred to.

    JM

    #30 4 months ago
  31. aseddon130

    To take it back to real history, were women even part of the usual working culture back in the 1800s??? This isn’t me shi*t stirring this is me literally not in the know. From what i can gather it has been a “mans world” up until more recent history. I’m not saying its right or wrong to not have females in games like this, but historically speaking it is possible

    #31 4 months ago
  32. Joe Musashi

    For what it’s worth (and this may sound like a suck-up, but I’m not too fussed what random folk on the internet think of me), I applaud Dave Cook’s participation in these comments and his tolerant, non-dismissive or ridiculing tone.

    It’s a viper’s nest of a topic with a lot of misdirection and overreaction. Whether I share his view or not, I have to admire the way its presented.

    All this during E3 week too. Brave or fool-hardy? Hard to say.

    JM

    #32 4 months ago
  33. Legendaryboss

    @Dave Cook
    Oh dear. Continue on. This whole debate reeks of *something something*.

    #33 4 months ago
  34. Gheritt White

    I just feel sorry for the dev team. Years of hard work, only to be suddenly blind-sided by a poor comment from one member of staff leading to outrage over something that was never promised and largely irrelevant to the game’s core mechanics,

    #34 4 months ago
  35. Alian

    well, I think I’m done with reading VG24/7, time to move on to other news sources…

    Trying to ruin the artistic integrity of a bunch of people like this is just childish, selfish, and even offensive. Why do people feel it’s okay to force months of work onto developers just so they can have an option that they forget about 5 minutes into the game? And if you really want to force months of extra work on the devs, why not rather to create more actual content to play through, to increase the value of your purchase? It’s crazy!

    Just.. shame on you!

    #35 4 months ago
  36. Dave Cook

    @aseddon130 French Revolution was something of a turning point in that regard from what I gather. History isn’t my strong suit.

    #36 4 months ago
  37. Joe Musashi

    @34 And given the size of the dev teams on AC projects, it’s likely a percentage of the team are women.

    EMOTIONAL PARADOX.

    JM

    #37 4 months ago
  38. Dave Cook

    @Alian What? By reporting on something that has literally happened.

    OK then.

    #38 4 months ago
  39. YoungZer0

    @Dave Cook

    I think what he means is that you’re going overboard with the entire topic. I think there are at least 4-6 articles on Ubisoft and female characters right now. Why the overkill?

    #39 4 months ago
  40. Joe Musashi

    Here’s how Ubisoft are going to address this. The new pre-game disclaimer will read:

    “INSPIRED BY HISTORICAL EVENTS AND CHARACTERS. THIS WORK OF FICTION WAS DESIGNED, DEVELOPED AND PRODUCED BY A MULTICULTURAL, MULTI-GENDER TEAM OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS FAITHS, BELIEFS AND GENDERS”

    JM

    #40 4 months ago
  41. Dave Cook

    @YoungZer0 It happens, we report it. Simple. The issue is circulating and new things are being said.

    #41 4 months ago
  42. Erthazus

    @Joe Musashi They always have this at the start of their game. Nothing changes really.

    I remember Assassin’s Creed 1. No one gived a fuck about female characters but for some reason in 2013 and 2014 everyone is freaking out when historically Assassin’s Creed games had plenty of female heroes and characters.

    “Won’t Somebody Please Think of the Children”

    #42 4 months ago
  43. Joe Musashi

    @42 No, #40 is an extended version of their standard disclaimer.

    JM

    #43 4 months ago
  44. yeoung

    @Dave Cook

    Hello Dave, personally i have nothing against making desires known, feedback allows developers to create content that van be enjoyed more broadly. Having said that, absence of such content is not an issue that needs to be adressed, it is a desire that can be expressed, nothing more, nothing less.

    Calling it an issue does have a smell of entitlement about it, calling it as it is, a desire by a certain sub-demographic, is more realistic and fair

    #44 4 months ago
  45. YoungZer0

    @yeoung

    Well said.

    #45 4 months ago
  46. drewjewel

    I blame Ubi for badly excusing their choice with the workload thing. But to me is really simple: the customer has the right to ignore and don’t buy a game just like a dev MUST have the right to do whatever he wants with its work.

    If you’re upset because you think they’re lazy, just don’t buy the fucking game already! That’s a lot of power in your hands. But don’t say it’s all about how you need to be represented in the games you play. I can relate to the adventures of Lara Croft just like millions of other guys.

    #46 4 months ago
  47. CyberMarco

    I think people is over-overreacting on this topic.

    I don’t believe that they aren’t including a female playable character because they are sexist, anti-feminist or thing that women in games are an “optional feature”.

    They decided to create the game as they see fit, be it for laziness, be it for focusing on their prime demographic which probably consists of 90%+ of male audience. It’s business after all.

    I don’t see petitions and women bitching about not seeing a shampoo commercial during the half-time of the world football cup, or if there is no woman driving that Mercedes/drinking that beer etc. Get over it, it’s business as usual. If you want to blame someone, blame capitalism since its goal is pure profits without giving a shit about morals and ethics.

    Oh and by the way, there is so much hypocrisy from these pro-feminist women against male audience that they don’t realize that they are to be blamed too for the things they are “fighting for”.

    As much as I would like there to be equality between man and woman there isn’t. Maybe in the next century, who knows…

    #47 4 months ago
  48. heyvc

    If they do This and its a rushed and crappy just so it is in the game… People will they say they do not repect women cuz it is a crappy thing they made…

    #48 4 months ago
  49. silkvg247

    @JM Disregarding your own disregard for any argument I present anyway (on account of being female); Where is the expense? More women will buy, this will cover the costs. Female character models are already in the game, the costs aren’t as high as you’re led to believe. Or do you really believe everything you hear in the press? Double the work my ass.

    @Young yes I am a game developer.

    I find it appalling that this has now turned into a female gamer vs. game developer debate (on account we’re apparently asking them to spend extra time and money just for us), or so the comments would have us think. I am a game developer. I find it sickening that we’re having this argument in the first place. I can guarantee you almost every developer working at Ubi would have *wanted* to put females into their games. Because it’s fucking stupid not to. They’ll be led by clueless execs and they’ll have to do as they’re told. That’s corporations for you.

    As soon as the same corporations pull their heads out of their arses and realise not only do we exist and step out of the kitchen occasionally, but also that we’re a market that can be tapped into (no pun intended).. then they’ll be at the forefront of the trend where games generally include females (like they did in the 80s, ho hum). They’ll still be blacklisted by me though.. and it’s not just because of the exclusion either. It’s because of the fucking excuses. It’s an insult to my senses that anyone would swallow such drivel.

    It’s finally happened though hasn’t it? After being asked time and again for a counter argument to females being in the game, we have it. The expense, the extra work for the “poor corporations”. Once again I ask, nay plead, for you to try use your noggin a wee bit and stretch beyond your current existence. At least try to think what it would be like if we reversed the current male vs female demographics, and try to see how asinine your own arguments are if they were being made against you as a minority.

    #49 4 months ago
  50. Gheritt White

    @silkvg247 This is a legit argument, but costs (time, resources) and the game’s set release date are factors ones that aren’t made by the team. So blame the publisher, not the devs.

    #50 4 months ago
  51. Kane Seere

    Dave, your second post says it all. Since you are male you have to include yourself… I wasn’t going to buy Unity, but now I’m going to buy the collectors edition of it just in spite because these arguments are so stupid it’s beyond me, also the jackhammer outside is driving me nuts.

    #51 4 months ago
  52. Demigod

    Perhaps Im misunderstanding this but this is not about a female lead for the game per say. It is only what another coop player will see you as. You yourself will always see your self as the Sp game character Arno. Its not about a forced choice you are playing the campaign in coop with other assassins, who all see themselves as the lead Arno. Only you see them as a different character. You could argue that one should be female or black but as they are in fact playing Arno that would make little sense.

    #52 4 months ago
  53. bradk825

    The “women weren’t working” angle doesn’t work because we know females were important in the assassin’s order anyway.

    On the topic of the petition, I am confused at the “people of colour” aspect. I am not strong on French history, but were there many “people of colour” in France during the revolution? I know some assassin’s did a lot of travelling but I would say it’s hard to be inconspicuous and hide in plain sight if you’re the one guy from Africa hiding in a sea of white francaphones. I guess I don’t see where that aspect of the petition comes from.

    #53 4 months ago
  54. Mr Sparkle

    Sigh. Really? Gotta love people.

    #54 4 months ago
  55. eTitan

    Dave Cook, please stop.

    Anyone who uses this ” Are you male? If so, then you can never fully understand.” in a discussion about sexism and equallity immediately eliminates themselves from the discussion. It’s a phrase that has been used by SJW’s for a while now and the only reason people use it is because it shuts up some people who don’t know how to reply.

    What you are doing is implying that because we are of the male gender it is impossible for us to have an objective opinion about a BASIC social issue. Which in itself is being extremely sexist. It’s also fucking ridiculous and stupid.

    #55 4 months ago
  56. Seventizz

    How is this an oversight in 2014? Even Titanfall gives you the female option – and she’s black!

    #56 4 months ago
  57. stretch215

    “White” males are a global minority themselves lol, but I guess i see what they’re trying to get at. I am not a “white” male and I think this petition is fucking stupid. We’re talking about a damn video game, not government representation, jobs, or anything that actually matters.

    #57 4 months ago
  58. karma

    I keep saying it, but most games at this point should be implementing full character generation systems, ala Mass Effect or Fallout. Gamers want to play who they want to play as.

    #58 4 months ago
  59. Joe Musashi

    @49 Thank you for giving such a wonderfully clear demonstration of the latter half of my statement in #25. And given that I am not the one making demands of one party or the other, unlike yourself, any dismissals I might make on the topic won’t show up as double standards.

    To add to those errors, claiming to speak for the entire development team, claiming the costs will be recouped – with zero evidence to back this claim up and continual exploitation and exaggeration of your own gender undermine any credible aspects of your argument.

    Furthermore, as a game developer you are uniquely positioned to do something about this situation that others aren’t. Others can merely vote with their wallets. You, on the other hand, could put your words into action. You can be pro-active. You can be constructive.

    Clearly, as you argue the effort on Ubisoft’s part is negligable then it would seem you could resolve this so called issue yourself by producing all the assets, code, animation, rigging, scripting, AI, voice-work and all other ‘minimal effort’ resources needed to put a female character into Assassin’s Creed Unity.

    No doubt doing this will earn you the respect of others who share your plight, be appreciated by Ubisoft, and raise your profile as a very capable and resourceful can-do developer.

    I sincerely hope you seize the unique opportunity you have, rather than squander it.

    JM

    #59 4 months ago
  60. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247

    „I find it appalling that this has now turned into a female gamer vs. game developer debate“

    What makes you say that? As I mentioned twice already, most female players I know don’t care about playing as a female character, especially for something like that, when you don’t even see the avatar yourself.

    „I find it sickening that we’re having this argument in the first place.“

    I find it sickening that Devs have to apologize for something they never promised in the first place. Would love to see your reaction when someone complains about your games not featuring dogs. (If I remember correctly you made that puzzle game with cats?)

    „ I can guarantee you almost every developer working at Ubi would have *wanted* to put females into their games.“

    How so? Did you ask almost every developer working at Ubi about that? If they wanted to, it would’ve been there.

    „Because it’s fucking stupid not to.“

    Or maybe it does not matter for something so irrelevant. Seriously, this entire debate gotten so out of hand, it’s ridiculous. Do you really want to see other players run around as female characters that much? How shallow is this?

    „It’s because of the fucking excuses. It’s an insult to my senses that anyone would swallow such drivel.“

    No, you’re just angry because you choose to be.

    If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading gaming news, it’s that you should never tell journalists the truth. The honest answer would probably be that it wasn’t important enough for them, but that would probably piss you off as well, if not more so. No matter what they do, they lose.

    „At least try to think what it would be like if we reversed the current male vs female demographics, and try to see how asinine your own arguments are if they were being made against you as a minority.“

    Did. Multiple times too. Figured it’s not enough to grant the fit you guys are having right now. Just don’t care as much about it as you do. Also, you’re the one who complained that it’s now a female gamer vs game developer thing. If it wasn’t, you just made it with comments like that.

    It’s not though, not at all. Plenty of women out there that don’t care about such irrelevant things and still play those games.

    I’d simply not buy it.

    Ask yourself; how much sense would it make if you’d play as Aveline and others saw your avatar as a bulky man. Yeah, that would be kind of stupid.

    #60 4 months ago
  61. miles97

    they made a game with female as lead and how many of u frankly like it . just let them do the game. if you dont like it sure make your own game with female lead.

    #61 4 months ago
  62. deathm00n

    I’m all for equality, women must have the same rights as men. But this “we need to alter the original vision of the devs to satisfy our meaningless needs” is stupid on so many levels. I’m fat, should I create a petition to create an fat assassin too?

    #62 4 months ago
  63. Dave Cook

    @eTitan Completely not what I was saying, and I don’t appreciate being called a SJW for discussing a genuine concern among gaming. Almost 3,000 people have put their name to the ballot. Are they SJW’s as well?

    Ridiculous, childish term used to make a fool out of people with real concerns.

    #63 4 months ago
  64. budoshi

    Well how to say in English to make it proper.. i ll try my best. The thing is with man, for a long time they (own) everything in the society for themselves and women were second class, on jobs, on status, on salary, on movie, on video games (now).
    Now, women want more equalities , they wants to be equals, let me try something else because it doesnt seems to go well lol

    Lets pretend its the opposite for the fun of it, female dominate the video games industry, now ,female characters are everywhere ok ? but every now and then a male character makes an appearance, but on extremely rare occasion. Now years passes man start to find a liking in video games and start playing them and get into them.
    About 1 years or 2 later ,they start to find out that its always female characters lead and story are bases around them .. now why is that? would you like to be able to play as a male from time to time? wouldn’t you be mad if a big AAA title interest you very much but nah sorry female lead again too hard to make both so next time yeah?.

    I m just trying to put yourselves into the females skin and think, now im a guy and i can understand that man aren’t a Superior sex race thingy like some likes to pretend, we dont need to dominate in politic and in everything else FIRST and then maybe a female on the side..

    I heard many time guys says i dont feel comfortable playing a s a female lead, this game sucks why do i have to by a female? , recently i saw it in state of decay dlc lifeline, That you’r character start as a female and the rest of the crew are male mind you …. the guy were all wounded or sick in hes game , as he said, therefore he was enable to select any of them for awhile and since the guy had only female left to play .. start bitching about it in the forum as the game is bad because he dont feel comfortable playing as a female for very long, see where im going?. and now i wouldn”t be surprised that the same guy would be the first to post in forum like this about as woman shouldn’t not complain about not having a female character in a game.. go figure…

    now why would it be to be any different for woman? maybe just maybe they dont like playing a s a guy? for many years woman’s didn’t have any interests in video games , they came late in this so having only dicks around was fine. but now things as change, they are not only playing but also making games .
    we man should start seeing the world less about us and start sharing. i said my peace .
    take it easy!.

    #64 4 months ago
  65. eTitan

    @karma That would immediately limit the potential for any character-driven story.

    #65 4 months ago
  66. silkvg247

    @budoshi Thank you for taking the time to imagine if things were the other way around. If only the rest would follow. Also, just to add, some women have been playing games for as long as, or longer, than the average aged male posting on these comments. 33 years of gaming for myself (since I was 3).

    Up until I was about 25, feminism gaming debates didn’t exist. Because we were pretty much treat as equals. An oddity maybe, but still respected if we were good at the game. Female avatars were were included in almost every RPG and multiplayer game back then.

    Then the gaming industry exploded, and seemingly the explosion made certain people forget that there are two genders on the planet. All quite confusing really.

    #66 4 months ago
  67. silkvg247

    @JM You’re not making any demands because you have no demands to make. Unless you class “demanding that we step down” as a demand? Is that the case?

    @Young – Actually it was cats and dogs. I’m making my first game that has humans in it now, and it never even crossed my mind to make them male or female only. It would seem like a fucking stupid choice. I would imagine other developers feel the same (because we’re a passionate and fair bunch, in general) but you’re right; I can’t prove it.

    #67 4 months ago
  68. deathm00n

    @budoshi Sorry, but even in the situation that genders were reversed I would not feel insulted having to play with a female character in most games. And would not think every game ever need to have males.

    #68 4 months ago
  69. TheWulf

    It’s interesting to read things like this to remind oneself of just how grotesque, abominable, and generally monstrous the extroverted side of humanity can do. It serves to constantly reaffirm my views. And much praise to Dave for standing by his convictions. I’m tired of people flip-flopping spinelessly on issues like this. Good to know he’s not one of them.

    Also, don’t worry about the labels, Dave. I find that ‘social justice warrior’ is a drearily uncreative dysphemism for ‘social equality activist.’ Back in the ’80s, I tended to receive much more… colourful and imaginative insults for standing by my gay peeps. I think that that just serves to prove that they’re getting thicker! The louder they get, the thicker they get! Soon enough, their vocabulary will be entirely monosyllabic.

    After that, it’ll degenerate into warbles and gurgles, and WoW fans will descend upon them with butter knives for their similarity to murlocks.

    I’m signing this.

    One thing that’s important to keep in mind as well is that intelligent people are also a minority, otherwise we wouldn’t have such a notable dearth of creators, actors, writers, artists, philosophers, scientists (of all fields), and so on, and such an over-abundance of thickies. Just the populist tastes dictate this all too clearly, in that they’re so terrified of losing a single per cent of the market focus that they’ll throw stones to keep their dominance.

    A single person signing this will have more worth than a billion thickies, because they’re capable of intelligence, insight, and introspection. The three most important i’s a person could have. What I find is that your average extroverted sociopath, a thickie to wit, isn’t capable of any of the three i’s. Not one of them. And that’s why they are what they are.

    I don’t put much stock in them. Each one of them is a nobody, given a voice by the Internet. A publisher wouldn’t put their verbal diarrhoea in a book, that’s for sure. Only here on the Internet can they have a voice. And a sad, pathetic, greedy, hateful voice it is, too.

    I’m just waiting for their own genes to realise that they’re a dead end, and not worth pursuing. If not for society, their own stupidity would have killed them within their earliest years — and these are usually the people who’re fighting against socialism as well. They’re picking a fight with the systems keeping them alive. The irony of that doesn’t escape me, either.

    Ah thickies. You’re as amusing as you are irritating.

    #69 4 months ago
  70. Joe Musashi

    @67 “@JM You’re not making any demands because you have no demands to make.

    I’m not making demands because, partly, I’m maintaining a sense of perspective, but mostly because I do not belong to either affected party.

    Unless you class “demanding that we step down” as a demand? Is that the case?

    Well let’s see “Demanding that we step down“. Yes. Yes, I think that could be classified as a demand. Hmm. Yep, it even has the word “Demanding” in it. I think that’s a pretty clear example of a demand.

    Hope that helps.

    JM

    #70 4 months ago
  71. budoshi

    @deathm00n maybe you , but you cant deny that isnt the case for many. i saw ways to many times guys saying they cant be playing as a female character. my roommate is one of them, i personally dont mind it and while sometime i uses a female character he often ask what the hell? are you gay lol…ya i know childish remark. i replied nah i prefer to watch a nice ass then a man s ass while moving around. Seriously i can understand hating to play as a female because you prefers to represent what you are but when the reason is because it touches in a weird way you male egos now that is starting to be weird in itself ,if that make any sense.

    #71 4 months ago
  72. BrokenSpline

    *golf clap*

    People taking 2 seconds to type their name or log in with FB to show their case. WHat are you going to do next demand that every game has a female option otherwise it shows they’re sexist?

    Doesn’t sound like entitlement at all.

    #72 4 months ago
  73. Joe Musashi

    @67. Oh! Silly me!

    “Unless you class “demanding that we step down” as a demand? Is that the case?”

    Sorry, you were trying to associate me with ‘demanding the we step down’ as though I’d issued such a demand?! I’m such a doofus sometimes. Must be an over-priviliged man thing. You probably wouldn’t understand.

    No. I didn’t say that. Nor did I demand it. Hell, I didn’t even imply it. And, honestly, I didn’t even think it.

    It’d be awfully nice if you didn’t exaggerate, assume and attempt to put words into people’s mouths in your rather cartoonish crusade. It really isn’t going to benefit you.

    (That’s not a demand. Heaven forbid.)

    JM

    #73 4 months ago
  74. deathm00n

    @budoshi And do you agree that the people who would find a problem not having more males would be the ones creating petitions? No matter what, there will be people overreacting to things. But the majority of people I know who play video games, have no problem whatsoever in playing with females. Friends of mine fight to play as Peach in Mario Kart! No matter the situation, there is always 3 kind of people, those who don’t care, those who care and those who care too much.

    I care about it, there should be more games with females, but I don’t want to force this on developers, after all it’s their work, their idea. It hurts the creative process to force things on people, they should make their work the way they imagined, if it includes females or not, it’s not our position to demand it.

    If that was the case, go make petitions to have two versions of every movie, one with a male protaganist and one with a female. If you don’t think this sound stupid, I’m sorry.

    #74 4 months ago
  75. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247

    So wait, you’re making a game with both genders playable? Does it include some 8000 animations?

    #75 4 months ago
  76. eTitan

    @silkvg247 “Female avatars were were included in almost every RPG and multiplayer game back then.”

    Only if it was a game with no particular story about a particular character, then they could definetly make both male and female characters. Oh wait, that’s how it is today as well! How silly of us.

    You make it sound like suddenly the game industry decided to be sexist and alienate female gamers. Which NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED. It’s an imaginary problem made up by people who have nothing better to do.

    Go do something about an actually problem instead, like people in other countries being stoned to death because some asshole decided to rape them. I’ve never seen anything even close to that happen in any modern society. Because it fucking doesn’t. Get your shit together and stop making stupid shit up. I’m happy that the majority of women friends I have feel insulted by the way you think they are opressed and treated sexist. At least there are some with a logical and rational thinking around.

    #76 4 months ago
  77. ddtd

    @Dave Cook What if the reasons are purely narrative, and Ubisoft just doesn’t want to discuss that yet?

    It appears to me that these other three assassins have very distinct looks. Furthermore, they’re featured on the box art.

    Consider that with the fact that you never get to really play as them, as your perspective is always going to be Arno’s, it’s very possible that the other three are actual characters in the main story (like they’re doing a musketeers thing), even when you’re not playing coop.

    #77 4 months ago
  78. FeaturePreacher

    Hey everybody, since we’re so interested in petitions theses days, here’s one petition Ubisoft to not let Ubisoft get derailed by the victim mongers out there.

    https://www.change.org/petitions/ubisoft-support-for-steadfast-development

    Please copy the link and promote it. This will be quite the challenge as most websites, including vg247 will most likely do everything it takes to discourage this petition.

    #78 4 months ago
  79. budoshi

    @deathm00n i agree, but we cant really compare a book a movie and a video games. because the only one you play you put yourself into it tis a video game. i just find it hypocrite to say dont make a petition and keep quiet but in other hand i dont want to be stuck with a female lead.

    if there s a female the male needs to be there what about them? woman ? . should they suffer simply because its man that first start to make games and therefore putting them in the game ?
    so its a male thing we should have a major saying in the matter? female keep on the side and hus hus

    Yes they should but the option in every game now that is roleplaying , because its all about equality. it takes more work, more times , but it makes everyone happy, Bioware did it ,mass effectas it starwars republic as it dragon age as it and many more, so why cant other developers do it? simple fear of the market, of the sales and laziness among other things, they even agreed on some point that having a female lead on a cover box,, sells less then having a guy in the cover i read this somewhere not too long ago, i think it was about the tomb raider remake cant remember tho.
    no matter how we turn this around no matter how we wants to look at it, female are in the game now , no pun intended, so we need to respect that. if they dont speak aloud about it nothing will change.. changes need action.

    #79 4 months ago
  80. Joe Musashi

    @78 In the interests of equality, I sincerely hope that petition gets the same level of exposure as the one that prompted this article.

    JM

    #80 4 months ago
  81. salarta

    I’m more than a little concerned that upon filling out the petition, change.org tries to get you to pay for more exposure. Still, signed.
    Ubisoft really can’t sweep this under the rug. If it was just one lone case, they could’ve phrased their response better and gotten away with it. But the fact they did this to two different games in development, that they explicitly call the idea of being a woman a “feature” rather than something they considered at the start, and all female representation out of their E3 conference this year involved women as victims all paints a very bad picture for the company.
    At this point, Ubisoft needs to either provide more female representation, or just accept that they’re about to lose a massive chunk of support and revenue because they value their biases a lot more. Whether or not they admit they don’t care is optional, but it’d certainly help them lose even more support and revenue.
    @Dave Cook I’ve learned those people are really just guys looking to keep things exactly the same. It’s sad to see so many of those people grasp at straws for any excuse they can think of to justify holding back positive change.
    “It’s not really about gender, even though it absolutely and obviously is about gender. It’s about creator rights!” Every single time society runs up against a moment that requires change for the better, you will always, ALWAYS find that the counter-argument is “it violates my/this other guy’s rights!” Ending slavery? It’s a violation of state rights! Restaurant bans guns in their restaurants? Violation of my Second Amendment rights! Law demands businesses not refuse to do business with gay people or black people solely because of their sexual orientation or the color of their skin? Violation of my religious rights!
    And now we have this bullshit. “You can’t demand the company represent women equally, it’s a violation of my creator rights!” Except in this case, there’s no law forcing the company to comply. All they company has on them is social pressure. And the people that stand in the way of progress still think that’s too much, that everything needs to stay exactly the same.
    @eTitan The implication that you can’t have an objective opinion on this issue is true because you CAN’T have an objective opinion. Nobody can. EVERY person is subjective here. Women know what it’s like to be discriminated against purely because they’re women. They have to grow up in that climate, and live in it, every day. You’re a guy. You do NOT have to live in it. The best you can do is imagine what it’s like, and imagining isn’t good enough. If it was, everyone could understand what it’s like to be a soldier with PTSD just by thinking really, really hard about it.
    It’s asinine to think you can truly, fully understand the whole situation and take all sides into consideration just by thinking really hard about it. And no, “logic” isn’t going to get you anywhere near understanding. You’re not only dealing with “logic,” you’re dealing with emotions and identity. If you go with only “logic” for everything, you can wind up in some really scary situations for society, like mercilessly torturing someone just because the gathered evidence suggests they may know something.

    #81 4 months ago
  82. silkvg247

    @JM ; Going back to a prior post.

    “One party demands empathy, at the other party’s considerable expense whilst refusing to offer any empathy themselves. One party cries out against being dismissed and disregarded, whilst dismissing and disregarding the concerns of the other party.”

    Who refused to offer empathy? Speaking purely for myself, I completely understand the extra costs and development time associated with an extra player character. But I also understand that it would be a positive change, which would increase female interest and their buy-in of the game franchise.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.. if cosmetics can sell well simply by advertising it to men and showing them “hey, this is for you!”, then games can do the same for women. Is “forcing” a publisher to do the right thing, which will ultimately work out well for them, really a bad thing? Who loses out in the long run? Good press, wider and growing market, all for an initial extra couple days work?

    Does anybody SERIOUSLY think that the overall cost of a player model, animations, and sound (which could be started from an existing NPC template) would be larger than the number of sales lost through blacklist on existing female gamers and lost potential sales of new female gamers? I daresay you don’t have a good business head if so, but then again, neither do most games publishers these days.

    Games should be celebrated for allowing the genders to have one form of “competitive sport” which is completely equal. If we continue this male-avatar only nonsense, it really does defeat the spirit of equality in games. I grew up with games that had complete equality for a good two generations, so of course I’ll be more passionate than most because I’ve seen what was a completely awesome thing just disintegrate. Why? Games got more expensive to make. Corporate greed. Lack of vision. Let’s chop out a gender instead of trying to drag more of that gender in.. when I read that last part back I wonder how on earth some of these places can still be in business.

    #82 4 months ago
  83. BrokenSpline

    The game is in a state where they are playing whack a bug with the build and will not be changed especially with a very small amount of people taking very small amount of effort to “fight” for their cause.

    They won’t be changing anything especially since it would require double the work for something the player will not actually see.

    The main character is a male. its done. Are people not wrapping their heads around this? You are the main character whether it is 1 player or 4 player so its like every assassin creed to date. The only difference is how you LOOK in other’s game something you won’t actually experience or control.

    #83 4 months ago
  84. budoshi

    @salarta very well said.

    #84 4 months ago
  85. kisame

    i see the point of this but the most popular stuff around the net is Porn
    so is hard to believe that this peoples that sing that petition believe in the role of woman’s in French revolution but instant they wont to see tits and that’s all
    so idk how to feel about this

    #85 4 months ago
  86. silkvg247

    @eTitan You what? How old are you? Serious question.

    Multiplayer games went from “generally” including female (Q2, Q3, UT etc.) to “generally” not including them (BF, COD, CS etc.)

    One of the key differences of course is that in the older days most games were modable, so even if they excluded females, wouldn’t be long til someone had modded them in (however my examples had them in from launch). The newer Battlecod games don’t have this functionality, and most of them don’t have females (yay Ghosts! shit game though) and it’s a shame really.

    Roll on the next UT game, and we can be done with this shit.

    #86 4 months ago
  87. OrbitMonkey

    I’ve yet to read a single reason to NOT include playable female avatars, that can’t be resolved with a little creative licence .

    But i guess thats the REAL issue here, a lack of creativity.

    #87 4 months ago
  88. budoshi

    I also would like to had how many assassin s creed there is? around 16 with all dlcs expension and all? and only 1 has a female lead..something funny right there and its the one that receive less love.. i mean did you play it? not very good, how many strong character lead we got ? lara croft? what other? oh yes samus from metroid? did you know that many got shocked when they find out samus was indeed a female? one cant denied guys .. male leads are everywhere. like i said earlier dicks all around was fine t ill now ,change is needed, fortunately many developer aren’t afraid of that change. we can see beyond two souls staring a female lead, portal also but on over all its a minority most developers are still too afraid to cross the line which is sad.

    #88 4 months ago
  89. deathm00n

    @budoshi “i agree, but we cant really compare a book a movie and a video games. because the only one you play you put yourself into it tis a video game.” Now you are talking about a different kind of game, in Assassin’s Creed you don’t put yourself in the game, you are not the main character, you don’t get to choose what he will look like or how he will act, just like in a movie. Now in Mass Effect or Skyrim you do get to choose how to look and act and there need to be females and almost every time there is these sandbox rpgs.

    What is being argued here is that a main character who already have a already defined personality, look and gender ( have a role in the story) should change.

    #89 4 months ago
  90. Joe Musashi

    @82 “Who refused to offer empathy? Speaking purely for myself, I completely understand the extra costs and development time associated with an extra player character.”

    Earlier:

    “I can guarantee you almost every developer working at Ubi would have *wanted* to put females into their games. Because it’s fucking stupid not to. They’ll be led by clueless execs and they’ll have to do as they’re told. That’s corporations for you.”

    And

    “They’ll still be blacklisted by me though.. and it’s not just because of the exclusion either. It’s because of the fucking excuses. It’s an insult to my senses that anyone would swallow such drivel.”

    Oh yes. You’re full of empathy.

    “But I also understand that it would be a positive change, which would increase female interest and their buy-in of the game franchise. “

    That’s your subjective appreciation of the situation. Ubisoft’s may be different. But you’ve already declared them wrong if they don’t see things your way. And have provided zero evidence to support your claims concerning remuneration on investment.

    ” Is “forcing” a publisher to do the right thing, which will ultimately work out well for them, really a bad thing? Who loses out in the long run?”

    “Forcing” anything on the creative process compromises it.

    “Good press, wider and growing market, all for an initial extra couple days work”

    Ubisoft have stated that it is not ‘an initial extra couple days work’. You are disregarding their concerns in favour of your own desires. Declaring your desires are “the right thing” regardless.

    Furthermore, Ubisoft and Assassin’s Creed in particular have a done a pretty good job concerning representation and inclusivity. Protagonists have been:

    Middle Eastern (Altaiir)
    Italian (Ezio)
    African American female (Adewale/Aveline)
    Half British, Half Native (Connor)
    Welsh (Kenway)

    Furthermore, from what I’ve seen of Far Cry 4, the protagonist and antagonist are not classic middle-white-male archetypes.

    There has been no ‘good press’ on any of these efforts. Indeed, Ubisoft have already had to fend of accusations of racism concerning the reveal picture of FarCry 4.

    There is no evidence of ‘Good press’ for such efforts. And any that is has already been shown to be far far eclipsed by the eager reporting of scandal and perceived offense. Because that’s the sort of press that sells.

    Given how totally overlooked their past efforts have been, I could well understand Ubi saying “Fuck it” and going full space-marine protagonist for every game the do in the future.

    “Does anybody SERIOUSLY think that the overall cost of a player model, animations, and sound (which could be started from an existing NPC template) would be larger than the number of sales lost through blacklist on existing female gamers and lost potential sales of new female gamers? I daresay you don’t have a good business head if so, but then again, neither do most games publishers these days.

    This is a loaded and rhetorical question.

    Ubisoft SERIOUSLY know the answer to this. But, with no evidence of your own other than your desire to have things your way, you have repeatedly asserted they are wrong. You are now hoping, still with complete lack of evidence, through rhetoric and repetition, to sway others to believe you.

    There is a very real cost to the project. Yours is not the voice of authority on the matter. No matter how much your rhetoric hopes to suggest otherwise.

    You are a games developer. You can make a difference. You appear to be choosing not to do that. The fact you completely overlook your unique position even though it has been pointed out to you (you have not even acknowledged it on those terms) is notable.

    If, as you insist, the effort is negligable. If you are a game developer. If it matters to you. Act.

    JM

    #90 4 months ago
  91. bradk825

    Good thing nobody has strong feelings about this issue. It could have devolved into some kind of terrible argument.

    Now, let’s talk about Donald Sterling.

    #91 4 months ago
  92. yeoung

    @silkvg247:

    This was directed at Joe Musashi, but I’m afraid I feel strongly compelled to nip this in the butt. You said; ” Is “forcing” a publisher to do the right thing, which will ultimately work out well for them, really a bad thing?”

    Yes. Yes it is. Sidestepping the whole kindergarten morality clause attached to what seems to be the crux of your argument, forcing anyone to do anything for your personal benefit seems somehow less than altruistic. Call me a cynic, (it’s how I self-identify anyway) but it seems to me you don’t understand what it feels like to have your work denigrated or otherwise disparaged on the count of a small sub-section of what you feel could be potential consumers who’m you think you represent.

    Not only do you assume far too much, you willfully and with ego centrism of forethought decided you were vindicated to high-road a video game corporation into adapting THEIR work to suit your personal tastes. The mangled guise of socio-moral codes and the marginalization in your comments speaks volumes about your lack of objective and rational judgement. You don’t have to be captain introspective to see the liberties you take concerning this topic. It’s honestly not a good look.

    #92 4 months ago
  93. salarta

    I’m starting to wonder. Has anyone thought of making a Twitter hashtag for this? It’d certainly help spread the word. I’d do it, but I’m not the right person to make such a thing.

    @budoshi Thanks, I’m not as active as I used to be, but I can’t avoid getting involved when I see things that need to be called out.

    @kisame People can like porn and depictions of women in porn, yet still respect women as people and want to see them treated better outside of porn. A lot of people mistakenly think people can’t think that way. It’s an understandable mistake, but it’s still a mistake. It’s a bit like saying “since a hammer fixed this problem, every problem can be fixed with a hammer.”

    @deathm00n What’s being argued here is that a character with an already defined personality, look and gender should have other characters with their own looks, genders and ideally personalities if possible as options. Nobody has at any point said Arno should be replaced with a different character.

    #93 4 months ago
  94. silkvg247

    If forcing positive action is a bad thing, slavery should still exist, and women shouldn’t be allowed to vote. You utter, utter morons. :/

    #94 4 months ago
  95. budoshi

    @deathm00n i agree i didnt see it that way ,that a pre define character couldn’t change sexes because it explain a story were woman were not really noticeable for their roles in life with some minor exception jean arc and so on , simply because they couldnt have a real say in the matter male dominance and all .

    So a game based around that time line makes sense not to have a female lead..anyway so i can understand why they cant make out a story simply because they need a female lead it would nt make sense,so i agree on preview assassins creed game it cant really implies..

    But someone said earlier that woman did do some amazing things in the french revolution ? now im not an expert at the time line so i cant say. if they did why not put one in the game then? it doesn t really matter for me but as we can see some female audience would had like to play as a female in that game.

    #95 4 months ago
  96. bobnice

    They should just let us play as a transsexual, then everyone will be happy!

    #96 4 months ago
  97. Michael Ireland

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news-main/pc-2/assassins-creed-iii-animator-calls-ubisoft-on-bullshit/

    A professionally paid animator, stating what this sort of work would require.

    /thread

    The sexism complaint this game is receiving is completely valid. Even if you remain as Arno at all times, there is no excuse not to allow the other avatars on screen to be displayed as female – they’re intended to be other assassins after all, not four Arnos.

    The approach to this leaves a lot to be desired though. Internet petitions change nothing. They’re lazy “no-action” actions, A.K.A. slactivism.

    You want to mak yourself heard by Ubisoft? Cancel your pre-orders. Don’t buy the game. Inform people (OFF the internet) of the issue. You can pretty much guarantee Ubisoft will suddenly be able to complete this stuff in time if their bottom dollar starts being affected.

    There’s one other approach to take though, and this is my personal favourite: stop caring about the media. It is not real life. These are not real people. It only affects you if you let it.

    If people put half as much effort into combating real sexism as they did the virtual kind, something might actual change. Nobody became a sexist pig because of an avatar in a video game.

    —-

    If you guys don’t like the way VG247 is going with these horrible headlines and blatant tabloid stories, leave. It certainly worked for me.

    Hope you’re all well. Stay safe.

    #97 4 months ago
  98. Joe Musashi

    @93 “I’m starting to wonder. Has anyone thought of making a Twitter hashtag for this? It’d certainly help spread the word. I’d do it, but I’m not the right person to make such a thing.”

    True slacktivism inaction.

    @94 “If forcing positive action is a bad thing, slavery should still exist, and women shouldn’t be allowed to vote. You utter, utter morons. :/”

    Classy.

    JM

    #98 4 months ago
  99. silkvg247

    @yeong Being female is a personal taste? What moon are you on, can I join you?

    #99 4 months ago
  100. Dave Cook

    @FeaturePreacher We’ll do nothing to discourage it. Don’t be ridiculous. Sign away.

    #100 4 months ago
  101. Dr Freedom

    @silkvg247 wow. Now you tie your slavery and women’s suffrage into your arguments. Wow, we must be arguing about someting fery, very important…….quickly reading the article…….Wait, this is about not getting your way in a video game? Are you fucking kidding me? At least you arent talking about your menstrual cycle to prove your point. I forgot you did that too. Maybe in the next game, that could be a mini game.
    I dont know why they didnt put a woman into the game, but they didnt. Get over it. The honest answer is probably because they dont give a shit. They will sell tons of games even with your amazing boycott. Next game the main character will be a biracial, bisexual female with physical disabilities and having her period. Enjoy that.

    #101 4 months ago
  102. yeoung

    @silkvg247:

    Wow. I now see the error of my ways.

    I jest, of course. I’m impressed by your uncanny ability and determination to pile up informal fallacies for the sake of your argument, which by now has taken on so many shapes i’m surprised Godwin’s Law is not yet in effect. Seeing as proper intellectual discourse went out the window the moment your perceived remaining rationality did, I shall abstain from further retorts, even if I’m getting a hearty laugh out of it.

    Good luck on your quest for equality in a world that does not exist, populated by fictional characters, where the rules are made up and haystacks refute gravity.

    #102 4 months ago
  103. salarta

    @Joe Musashi More like, it worked for getting resources devoted to the girls that were abducted in Nigeria, at a time when the Nigerian government was trying to sweep it under the rug. The issue hasn’t been resolved, but what’s been done is better than nothing being done at all.

    #103 4 months ago
  104. Kane Seere

    @Michael Ireland Maybe you should read the comments there as well, were other developers stated that what was said is utter bullshit, but I guess people just read the part that affirms their believes.

    #104 4 months ago
  105. Joe Musashi

    @103 Wait, what?

    Ubisoft have enlisted the Nigerian government to abduct schoolgirls to make male-only Assassin’s Creed games and are trying to hide the fact?

    I don’t know where you get your information from, but I must say, I find that one hard to believe.

    JM

    #105 4 months ago
  106. Kane Seere

    @Joe Musashi Just a little digression, Joe there’s no need for you to sign your posts, your name is at the top.

    #106 4 months ago
  107. budoshi

    @Joe Musashi 103 Wait, what?

    Ubisoft have enlisted the Nigerian government to abduct schoolgirls to make male-only Assassin’s Creed games and are trying to hide the fact?

    I don’t know where you get your information from, but I must say, I find that one hard to believe.

    i must admit i giggle a little. but come one man.

    #107 4 months ago
  108. yeoung

    @Joe Musashi:

    I don’t know man, Nigeria can’t be trusted. Their prince still owes me money.

    #108 4 months ago
  109. salarta

    @Joe Musashi Now you’re just so desperate that you’ll try to spin it any way you can.

    You were ridiculing the value of forming a hashtag on Twitter for this issue. I responded with an obvious example for how hashtags can effect positive change. Confronted by this, and aware that I pointed out something valid, you resorted to bullshitting that I was comparing one less serious problem to a much more serious one.

    I thought you were better than that. Sadly, I was mistaken.

    #109 4 months ago
  110. Dragon

    Ok, if I am correct, co-op is fun and all but the story treats all characters as same.
    If that assumption is correct, then putting a different character (like female) would require devs to flesh out story specific to that character (like Mass Effect) costing probably a good amount of money, or do a half hearted work which would, again, be criticised.
    Obviously, I can understand people wanting female lead, but Ubi probably thought it wasn’t worth the spend.

    #110 4 months ago
  111. Joe Musashi

    @107 & 109 I’m Twitter-phobic so didn’t fully appreciate the reference.

    @106 Noted.

    JM

    #111 4 months ago
  112. Gheritt White

    @silkvg247 Does anybody SERIOUSLY think that the overall cost of a player model, animations, and sound (which could be started from an existing NPC template) would be larger than the number of sales lost through blacklist on existing female gamers and lost potential sales of new female gamers? I daresay you don’t have a good business head if so, but then again, neither do most games publishers these days.
    Yes, *if* it causes them to slip out of the lucrative Xmas release window. Ubisoft couldn’t afford this to slip into 2015, for example. And while generating the individual assets may each not take altogether that long, pulling them together, placing them into the game and – above all – testing and polishing them is no small amount of work, at least in terms of man hours. That’s not even taking resubmissions into account.

    I think if they could do it, then they would. I believe them when they say that their content pipelines aren’t set up to absorb this additional work.

    However, the point about why it’s *additional* work is a good one. It does seem awfully short-sighted (and a little out of character) for Ubisoft to have not provided a female co-op Assassin option.

    But them’s the breaks and there’s no point asking them to delay their release purely for a cosmetic enhancement (because that’s what this amounts to, really – the new model, skin, V/O and anims wouldn’t fundamentally alter the game’s mechanics).

    #112 4 months ago
  113. Alian

    @yeoung

    I just came back, cause I always get a good laugh out of reading raging feminist’s crazy comments about fictional worlds, instead of moving their butts out of the chair and actually making a change in the real world…

    But your comment.
    It’s just.
    Gold.
    You actually deserve a medal.

    However don’t waste your time on feminists raging about petty things like this, they will just twist and distort your, or even their own sentences to their liking, and will just ignore rational, true comments.

    I bid you all farewell.

    #113 4 months ago
  114. Alian

    @Alian EDIT: I meant to say, your #102 comment specifically, yeoung, but you can easily extend my liking to all your comments.

    #114 4 months ago
  115. budoshi

    @Gheritt White the real question is.. why didn’t they thought about it from the beginning of the production of the game? why say these excuses now? makes you wonder.

    oh crap guy ..the game is almost done .. we didn’t think about putting a female in co p bah too bad no time now..excuse me while once again i roll my eyes

    #115 4 months ago
  116. salarta

    @Joe Musashi Okay then, sorry if the way I wrote my comment wasn’t clear enough for you.

    Here’s some explanation, and I’m writing this assuming you know nothing even if you know quite a bit. A group called Boko Haram in Nigeria abducted 200 girls from a school. In the beginning, the Nigerian government wasn’t willing to do anything meaningful about it, and tried to sweep it under the rug. But once the #bringbackourgirls hashtag got used and spread on Twitter, outside governments got involved, and the Nigerian government finally acknowledged the issue and their need for help resolving it.

    Obviously, the hashtag on Twitter wasn’t all it took, but it did spread the word enough to effect real change. For the sake of fairness, I feel I should also mention that there was a misguided #cancelcolbert hashtag, which thankfully didn’t result in anything. That hashtag was from people that didn’t grasp the concept of satire and leveled all their outrage at the wrong group (at Stephen Colbert, not the Washington Redskins) as a result.

    #116 4 months ago
  117. HansKazan

    female entitlement needs to stop, the sheer stupidity and egocentric comments about this “issue” is rediculous.

    you SJW are ruining any last respect normal people have had for you.
    slowly but surely you are turning more facist by the year.
    logic should come before emotion in any decision, especially a business one.

    you wish to play a game as yourself instead of going for the experience of being someone else.
    isn’t that the entire point of these kind of adventure games, that you ARE playing as someone else.

    ubisoft is making a game based on a script they see fit, if they don’t want to add any female leads that’s their decision to make.
    how does this impact the female gaming community? do you not like games unless you can play as a woman? isn’t that extremely sexist.
    are all of you that narrowminded that you can’t enjoy something unless you play a female character?

    gaming is about GAMES, not about your delusions of a rape culture and wanting an equal world.
    if you can’t enjoy a game just because you have to play a male character, you aren’t really a gamer at all.

    stop preaching respect, tolerance and equality when SJW stand for facism, intolerance and ignorance.
    and this “issue” is a prime example.

    #117 4 months ago
  118. silkvg247

    @yeong/Young it’s not my responsibility to make any of you see the error of your ways. If you can’t change, then that’s your issue, not mine. If you argue that forcing change is bad, even though forcing change is pretty much ALWAYS the only way to create change, then why don’t you just keep doing nothing? Or, better still, just keep shouting abuse at those people trying to create positive change (argue it’s negative, go on, would love to heard it). In the meantime I’ll keep fighting for equality and putting both genders in my games if it’s all the same to you.

    Same goes to you, JM

    Hey guess what, I forced my current work place to move to C# and business is better than ever, and our coders are happier than ever. Change shouldn’t be forced indeed.. who’s living in a fantasy world now eh. Every positive (and sometimes negative!) change that’s happened in the world to date has been through forced change. Because people are stubborn, and change is scary. If we don’t change, then we fester.

    I will tell you this much, if they genuinely can’t change their games, fine. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t change the attitude shown lately. Women as “features” indeed.

    The bigger issue is everyone assumes this is largely around Ubi. For me it’s a bigger problem with the industry as a whole, and I personally want to force (yup, force) the industry as a whole to stop being dicks and get female choices back into games.

    Don’t have that power yet. Working on it.

    #118 4 months ago
  119. Armitage Shanks

    Wasn’t there supposed to be a seperate Assassins Creed game coming to 360 and ps3 this year? any news on that at E3?

    #119 4 months ago
  120. Kane Seere

    @salarta I’m sorry, but are you really so stupid that you are comparing real life abductions to a lack of choice in gender in a video game?

    #120 4 months ago
  121. ddtd

    @Dragon This is my assumption too. If the coop Assassins were just serviceable no-name, no-personality characters, then I see no reason they couldn’t just slap a female model in there.

    However, if they’re fully fleshed out characters that are a part of the story; fully voiced, written into the main narrative, etc… then there’s a narrative reason why these characters are all male. Furthermore, changing one would require much more work; new voice acting and dialogue, new cutscenes, and of course, rewriting the story as you now have a completely different character.

    This is all speculation, of course, but I would not be surprised one bit if it winds up being true.

    #121 4 months ago
  122. silkvg247

    @Hans Hi Hans, I think you stepped into the wrong thread. We were talking about multiplayer female representation or lack of. Nobody, self included, has debated about story driven solo campaigns “having to be changed”. Apart from a couple of guys that seem to want to take away the very few games we have with female leads that is. “Larry” Croft, haha.

    Regardless, your post is pretty mindless tbh. Entitled females indeed. You mean like the one that pushed you out?

    #122 4 months ago
  123. Gheritt White

    @silkvg247 Hey, how come *I* don’t get a pithy and scathing response, huh?

    #123 4 months ago
  124. silkvg247

    @Gheritt – I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

    #124 4 months ago
  125. Joe Musashi

    Thank you for the explanation.

    Looks like #womenaretoohardtoanimate has been (mis)appropriated for this cause.

    Petitions. Hashtags. All we need now are some animated gifs.

    JM

    #125 4 months ago
  126. BrokenSpline

    @ddtd

    Seriously? They don’t have individualize story. They all are going through the same story, they are all Arno. The difference is they look different in someone else’s game butt in their own they are still Arno. You see the problem? People are just bitching there isn’t a female lead and just using this as their boilerplate for their “protest”. Even though the game will react and play the same way as the previous games the difference is you can now play with 4 other players. All going through the same exact story.

    #126 4 months ago
  127. Gheritt White

    @silkvg247 That’s better, I was starting to feel left out.

    #127 4 months ago
  128. yeoung

    @Alian:

    Thank you for the kind words, sir/madam.

    #128 4 months ago
  129. salarta

    @Kane Seere Are you stupid enough to think that’s what I was doing?

    @Joe Musashi Thanks for letting me know about that hashtag. It’s not a very good one, as far as I can tell, but it’s something. Though I don’t see how that hashtag can be “mis”appropriated. Did anyone even use it before now?

    #129 4 months ago
  130. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247

    „even though forcing change is pretty much ALWAYS the only way to create change“

    But who gets to decide what’s good and what’s bad, or in this case, what’s a waste of time and effort. You? I want your game to feature a black midget as the main protagonist. Go on, do it. I want that now. That’s positive forced change. Do it now, because I demand it.

    „then why don’t you just keep doing nothing?“

    Like you guys? I mean you’re not actually doing anything. Complaining about irrelevant stuff is not actually doing anything.

    „Or, better still, just keep shouting abuse at those people trying to create positive change“

    Again, how immature do you have to be to decide what is and isn’t positive? Why do you want to see others as female characters so much? Do you realize how immature and childish this makes you look like?

    „In the meantime I’ll keep fighting for equality and putting both genders in my games if it’s all the same to you.“

    Yeah, you do that. Lawl. You also didn’t answer my question, does the game feature male and female protagonists, or not?

    „Every positive (and sometimes negative!)“

    Yeah, only sometimes …

    You know, there are a lot of people out there who are against abortion, they think it’s murder and they also think that taking away your rights to abort (or whatever the word for it is) is actually a good thing. Why are you so against positive change, silk? Those people will be fighting the good fight though, no matter what you do.

    Just to clarify for ignorant people like you, I’m pro-choice. Just saying’. Two sides of the same coin.

    You obviously have no regard for artistic integrity and therefore deserve none for your game. SO WHERE IS MY BLACK-ASIAN MIDGET TRANSVESTITE YOU RACIST-SEXIST?!

    #130 4 months ago
  131. Kane Seere

    @salarta If you can’t see that is what you are doing then yes you are that stupid. The abductions are a real problem. Not having a female option in a video game is not a problem.

    #131 4 months ago
  132. salarta

    @Kane Seere I was addressing the value of Twitter hashtags, not claiming this issue is on the same level as that issue.

    I already explained this once, and while I find it very hard to believe you didn’t catch that, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt once here. After that, I’ll assume you know full well what I actually said and just want to pretend otherwise out of desperate hope that what you’re claiming sticks.

    #132 4 months ago
  133. Kane Seere

    If you really see this as a problem you need to check your privilege.

    #133 4 months ago
  134. salarta

    @Kane Seere http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jun/05/check-your-privilege-means

    #134 4 months ago
  135. silkvg247

    @YoungZer0 The game will be an open world game, with male and female playable characters, yes. If by some miracle I ever make money and can form a studio to create triple A titles, I can guarantee you I wouldn’t be excluding either gender from those, either.

    Why do I think diversifying games so that more women could get into gaming as a whole is a bad choice? Gee, I don’t know. Because it’s good for the industry? Because it hurts nobody?

    I genuinely wonder how many more chicks we’d have gaming if COD, BF, TF2 etc. had included them. It’s speculative of course, but I’m going to imagine it would have made things somewhat different than they are today.

    Look at it this way, why is it largely guys that play games, still? Or rather, “proper” games, let’s leave the casual game nonsense for a different topic. Do you think that by default you grew up with a desire to play games? Do you think that perhaps you were drawn in somehow? What was the pull?

    Games are fun, that’s the main pull, right? But there’s more to it now. Because games are nearly photo realistic, it suddenly matters who and what you can be in a game. Back in the 80′s I don’t think anyone much cared which 8×8 block of pixels they were controlling.

    Guys pull other guys into games. Guys get pulled into games because the game is marketed squarely at them. If the games only contained chicks, I sincerely doubt we’d have the volume of male gamers we have today. Do you doubt this? Would you have become a gamer if you grew up in a world where it was a girl thing?

    Girls – like me, are a minority because we ended up accidentally falling into gaming. I had brothers, so I was always going to become a gamer – because they did! If games were marketed at women, and included women, then more women would be in games. That’s why I staunchly believe that excluding us is self defeating, harmful for the industry and a negative attitude overall.

    I’m sorry that you can’t see that inclusion of both genders would be a positive change. I don’t know what else I can say to you at this point, except hope that one day you’ll see you were wrong.

    #135 4 months ago
  136. budoshi

    @silkvg247 I can guarantee you I wouldn’t be excluding either gender from those, either.

    Or maybe you should make a only female game :) just you know for revenge mouhaha . nah dont do it because you know it wont sell well Oppss!?? did i just say it?

    #136 4 months ago
  137. yeoung

    @silkvg247:

    Figured I’ll humor you one more time, but I’m going to draw a parallel to something more comprehensible, as you seem to be struggling with the key point I’ve reiterated a few times over across the various articles devoted to this particular situation.

    If a man is building a soapbox racer, and he aims to mass-produce and sell that soapbox racer. He has been blueprinting the thing for a couple months, and finally he’s got it the way he wants it. He builds it, a woman (because women can like soapbox racers too!) has heard through the grapevine that a local man is working on a soapbox racer. She decided to let him know what she feels would make the car better positioned to enter the market.

    “Throw on some flame stickers, because I like those and I know people who also like those”

    The man says he does not like flame stickers himself, and he wants to sell the soapbox racer he himself designed, politely declining her request for flame stickers.

    “You’re being narrow-minded, I know for sure people like me like flame stickers, you’re going to do this, I don’t care that you have to go out and buy flame stickers, you WILL add them to that soapbox so help me God..”

    The man, alarmed by the woman’s sense of entitlement, knowing how people talk, tries to find an excuse that will allow him to follow his own vision, but won’t send the woman away on a tirade vowing to take vengeance for this injustice. He knows she will speak ill of him across the neighborhood and people will be biased against him and his soapbox racers.

    “I don’t care for your flimsy excuses, if you do not put on flame stickers, I will get everyone in the neighborhood together to tell you to put on those damn stickers”

    And so she does, she shows up with several other people, some of them equally outraged, others perhaps meandering along with the idea of cool looking flame stickers, not knowing how the man has been working on his own personal vision.

    The man, distraught by seeing either his work compromised or his artistic integrity questioned is backed into a corner, left to turn in his sleep whether or not he should alter his designs to make room for flame stickers.

    Fin.

    Does that make it easier to understand the underlying point and your role in this story?

    #137 4 months ago
  138. budoshi

    @yeoung @yeoung so by your logic. lets all make games around our vision. what if games contained only female character? what if you dont like playing as one? and got weird feelings being a female protagonist in your game like many man does ? (btw im no saying you do just an example ) well it was my vision so i wanted it to by like that ? what if i make a car but for gay peoples pink and all? its my vision what you gonna do?

    well you have the power to skip it and wont buy it ? yes off course you got a lots of other choice out there why go for a pink car?
    so what your gonna do skip it skip the only female lead character game that i made because you know who care more game out there that have male as protagonist anyway. wait..who again suffer from this lack of choice. i let you decide.

    i dont think your vision theory applies all that well..i can make cloths for a man of course female cloth exist equallity everyone happy.., but what about games that 90% are all around us guys.. our universe.. why such a big fuss over woman that like to be apart of games industries.. gee i would like it so much that my girlfriend like playing video games with me but sadly she doesn’t.. she says its a guys things..kinda sad that mindset she got but i wonder why ? all they ask is it would be fun not to ignoring them and be able to play as a girl in a mans games from time to time , jeez whats hard to grasp here.

    #138 4 months ago
  139. PSOCecil

    This is the third or fourth article about this same topic. I expected better, VG24/7. Time to turn on the ad-blocker, and remove this site from my bookmarks.

    #139 4 months ago
  140. polygem

    I can’t understand that some male gamers call these debates an overreaction from so called feminists that want to ruin gaming and go crazy about ‘non issues’ while at the same time they themselves show an intolerant, egoistic, unempathic reaction to a topic that doesn’t affect or devalues their own gaming experience even slightly but could at the same time make very important changes for others. These guys are pretty much overreacting if you ask me. Big time…but thank you, it’s the debate about it that will spark a change. Your contribution will help to make this happen.

    #140 4 months ago
  141. salarta

    @polygem Shh, we don’t want them to catch on to any of the ways they’re sabotaging themselves. :)

    #141 4 months ago
  142. budoshi

    well ,anyway talking ouver the net about this is pointless and wont change nothing, only time will tell and only by speaking out loud maybe they will be heard, one thing is for sure if you don t say anything that displeases you in any situation nothing will change. so maybe with time things will change for the gaming industry and be a liitle bit more open minded if they continue their ( soit disons ) crusades.

    #142 4 months ago
  143. bradk825

    Despite the silly reason given, I am not sure Assassin’s Creed is the proper target for diversity rage.

    Looking at the co-op, it truly is 4 of the same basic character model. If they had talked about it slightly differently we might not even be having this discussion. But anyway, check out this list:

    AC1: Arab
    AC2: Italian
    AC3: Native American
    AC4: Welsh
    AC4 Freedom Cry: African
    AC Liberation: African American female

    Yes, our new French friends are white, but they are not white American dude-bros either. And it’s almost surprising it took this long for a Quebec company to base a game in France.

    If he had said “All the co-op guys are the same character model and maybe in the future that will be different” I don’t think we’d be over 100 posts right now.

    That said, “because money” isn’t a good enough reason to exclude various races or genders and when it works there is no reason gaming can’t have more female and non-white protagonists and villains.
    That then said, “because I said they should” isn’t a good enough reason for a game to find a place for a female or non-white character. Creators create, and if you want to create, create. It’s not fair to tell a creator what to create when you don’t create. There are free game engines out there if you want to make a game with a female protagonist.

    There are 2 or 3 or 4 sides to every story.

    I am responding only to the situation by the way and not any of these posts, most of which I haven’t read.

    #143 4 months ago
  144. exemp30

    Oh cool! Let’s all sign some digital petition that will never work! I’m all for women in my games but why waste time on these internet petitions? I’ve seen like ten of these things posted on gaming sites yet I never see another article saying “The petition worked!!”

    #144 4 months ago
  145. Gekidami

    @bradk825
    Shut up with your truth and logic Bradk. The angry white knight neck beards are crying.

    #145 4 months ago
  146. bradk825

    LOL, define neck beard though, I don’t know what that is. I’m getting old so I don’t know all the lingo anymore.

    #146 4 months ago
  147. Armitage Shanks

    @146 a “neckbeard” is generally also an “Obese militant atheist Brony fedorafag”

    #147 4 months ago
  148. Gekidami

    @bradk825
    Entitled nerds who think the world revolves around their views and who throw hissy fits when things dont go as they want, no matter how logical the explanation, no matter how valid the reasoning.

    #148 4 months ago
  149. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247:

    Oh for christs sake, stop with the self-pity. You’re a grown-ass woman, not some 14 year old girl with a princess complex! I have no time for people who do that kind of shit.

    Feels like a waste. You know, like putting in female characters in a game that you can’t even see as your own avatar just to please a loud minority that thinks it’s fine to push more work devs who are probably already crunching big time.

    You continue to miss the point and avoid the questions. What do you get out of the game by not even seeing your female avatar? Why is it so important to you how other people see you in the game?

    This has become some fucking witch hunt. I know you care deeply about female characters, but I’m asking, is UBISOFT really the proper target for that? Do you really think it’s a good idea to attack them for something they never promised in the first place? For something as minor as seeing other players as female characters? Because I think you and the rest of your social justice warriors do yourself a disservice.

    I just showed this topic to a female friend of mine who loves the AC series and she thinks you guys are fucking embarrassing. So don’t make this some sort of gender issue, because it’s about your fucking egos and your fucking entitlement.

    I hope one day you’ll understand that it’s not okay to spit on a developers artistic integrity just so you can be pleased with yourself.

    And where is my black asian midget transvestite? I will not stop until there’s equality for all.

    #149 4 months ago
  150. yeoung

    @budoshi:

    Videogames are primarily an exercise of artistic vision, if not an exercise of capitalistic vision. Videogames are not a public service. Furthermore, there is a huge difference between;

    Say guys, it would be like super swell if we could get a female character thrown in, I know I’d like to play as one, and so would many of my friends.

    What’s happening here though is the adult version of a toddler holding its breath and stomping its feet until it gets a happy meal. Much like Joe Musashi so succinctly put at the start of this thread;

    The principle is fine.
    The one-sided nature of the debate is poor.
    The execution is atrocious.

    It perfectly encapsulates this entire “debate”

    #150 4 months ago
  151. polygem

    You have to love the ‘i showed this to my wife / girlfriend, she thinks it’s not an issue at all’ argument. It reveals a pretty sexist mindset. This women does not represent a whole gender. It proves nothing.

    #151 4 months ago
  152. DarkElfa

    Right now there are too types of pro female amendments that are present in the gaming community. They want female alternate characters and they want non- sexy female characters or to be specific, more realistic female characters.

    Let them have it. I was NEVER against them having these things as they aren’t unreasonable. I just dislike the way people are going about it. I believe that games, like books and films are art and story. Those who create have a damn right to decide how to present and tell their story and I don’t think that the end consumers has any right to tell them how to create their art. The only thing the consumer has the right to do is not purchase the product.

    Social shaming people for not doing things your way is tantamount to bullying and its utter bullshit. You want to petition for more games starring females, do that but don’t try and shame story tellers into shoehorning your personal opinions into their art.

    #152 4 months ago
  153. ddtd

    @BrokenSpline I don’t think you understood what I had said.

    I had said that it’s possible that the characters we will see other players represented as are actual characters in the story and are a part of the narrative. We never get their perspective, because we’re playing Arno, but that doesn’t mean their can’t be side stories where the player, playing as Arno, interacts with the other three outside of coop play.

    #153 4 months ago
  154. polygem

    The principle is fine.
    The nature of the debate is unimportant. The existence of the debate itself is important.
    Atrocious is the fear of insecure men.

    #154 4 months ago
  155. Gekidami

    Unsurprisingly, Polygem is here to play the great martyr for another bullshit cause and harvest as much attention as possible in the process.

    #155 4 months ago
  156. salarta

    @polygem “I’m not racist, some of my best friends are black.”

    It’s not quite the same as that quote, but it’s still ignorance by using a woman’s credibility (notice those women aren’t the people actually posting here, showing that if they really exist, those women don’t care enough to speak in the debate) as leverage. Apparently, since I’m male, if I were to say that we should have no male protagonists in video games at all, my being male means it’s decided. All men automatically never want to see another male protagonist in a video game ever again.

    No no, men that think otherwise. I’m male, so I speak for all of you, and I’ve decided you all agree with me. So the “my wife/girlfriend said this so it must be true” argument goes.

    #156 4 months ago
  157. polygem

    Uh that was sexy geki. Manly.

    #157 4 months ago
  158. yeoung

    @polygem:

    You’re adressing me, then? Could you elaborate on how I am insecure?

    Could it be that you’ve concluded I am against having (playable) female characters in the game? If so I would kindly point you to my earlier posts in this thread, as well as in the, “Ubisoft reponds…” thread and the thread that preceded it, the “Ubisoft attempts to explain…” article.

    Perhaps you figure that because I see reason to object to unreasonable objections, I must have some hidden agenda or ulterior motive? Perhaps I seek to bring down the sisterhood? Perhaps my aim is to have all videogames consist of burly white and maybe-not-so-white-but-at-least-penis-owning gentlemen?

    Maybe it’s because you think that by me pointing out flaws in rhetoric and logic of those that vocalize their empathy towards a cause, this is paramount to me denouncing the cause itself?

    Don’t keep me guessing polygem, please, elaborate.

    #158 4 months ago
  159. Gekidami

    @salarta
    Funnily enough though the most vocal people about these dumb issues are always men.

    Heres a little fact for you brave men of white armour:
    http://www.rooshvforum.com/attachment.php?aid=18855

    #159 4 months ago
  160. yeoung

    @yeoung:

    Crap, by ‘unreasonable objections’ I meant unreasonably founded and phrased objections, curse these Freudian banana peels.

    #160 4 months ago
  161. polygem

    @salarta: yes, and it shows that it’s actually a waste of time to discuss this with some people. even the basic inner reflections about this topic haven’t happened…but then, like i said, i think that these crowded articles indeed help a lot.

    We must make sure that they are coming back. ;-)

    #161 4 months ago
  162. BrokenSpline

    @ddtd

    Ubisoft already said as much that each character doesn’t have their own story. They will just be npcs in the background.

    #162 4 months ago
  163. silverstorm

    sigh..

    #163 4 months ago
  164. polygem

    @Yeoung. It wasn’t aimed at you. I was just overreacting and generalising. Thought it was the sound of this debate.

    #164 4 months ago
  165. DarkElfa

    @Gekidami I laughed at that, though I’m sure many of the “defenders” here have their hearts in the right place.

    #165 4 months ago
  166. silkvg247

    @yeuong – I agree completely that your story reeks of selfishness and ridiculous self entitlement. But you need to stop, breathe, and realise that women are real living things, not car stickers.

    Your example would make more sense if you had, instead of introducing a woman who wants stickers, introduced a professional female racer who wanted to know if female avatars would be present in the game.

    How is it mere self entitlement to want the games industry to recognise both genders? Have we ever asked for it to be only women? If we had, I’d understand the outrage and negativity. But nay, we merely ask for the same as you have.

    #166 4 months ago
  167. budoshi

    @yeoung making your piece of arts the way you want it its fine and all ,i agree, and no one have the right to oppose your ideas it is your creation after all, i also agree , if they dont like dont buy .
    Yes, but that artistic vision that is video game are at the moment, pretty close to be close minded on the subject , fear to put some variety in the gender or ethnic ,because developers who are the artist are more often then not white male to only create games that revolves around that and what they are. The same audience is far bigger and less risky to simply dare to change.
    what some people are trying to say and change is that exact artistic work that doesn’t seem to want to change in the mind and in the eyes of those dear developers.

    And the female audience simply trying to change that, with apparently massive oppositions, video games are in facts pretty much a male s world that female want to been a part of, because more and more female gamers appears.
    still i dont know many in real life who play but i do know some in steam, many more girls are playing games then i used to see and know on steam when i made my account back in 2005 , and especially left for dead 2 for some reasons girls seems to like that game , there is a female character you can chose from and they are always choosing it when i play with them.

    Now if the execution is poor not for me to say. they want to use petition ok i guess its a way to do it. they want to say stop using abusing animals to make fur clothes and running around naked in the street up to them. maybe the execution sometimes aren’t the best but its better then remains silent and endure in my opinion.

    #167 4 months ago
  168. salarta

    @Gekidami Until you look at the hashtag presented by Joe Musashi and see how many women are tweeting with it.

    That’s okay though, stick to the whole “white knight” and “social justice warrior” thing, I’m “sure” empty labels will prevent progress just as the people desperately using them expect. It’s not like it’s just one of many ploys meant to disguise how the person doing the labeling has no legs to stand on, right? Everyone knows you only throw labels around when you can easily win an argument without ever having to use a label.

    (Psst, I’m going to do something stupid and clue you in for a second: when rational people see that, it shows how desperate you are to win an argument you already know you’re going to lose)

    @polygem I’m on a bit of a roller coaster when it comes to my reaction here. Right now, I’m in the phase where this is actually fun for me, because I know the people opposed to Ubisoft giving equal treatment to women are only digging holes for themselves.

    #168 4 months ago
  169. yeoung

    @polygem:

    Huhm.. well that’s no fun, if you’re going to high-road or mock people at least give notice who you’re addressing and/or mock-roading. I like discussing viewpoints and rhetoric, but it’s no fun if you’re just gonna bow out.

    Guess I’ll do something productive then. Eh..

    #169 4 months ago
  170. silkvg247

    @Young you are woefully misguided if you think anything I have to say even borders on self pity. I have a good life, a great career , good health, an awesome gf, and exciting future plans.

    I don’t feel sorry for myself that the industry is moving backwards in equality. I feel sorry for the industry! It frustrates me! I pity people who can’t realise obvious potential, or exciting opportunities to change things for the better. Yeah, I said it again, for the better. A positive change. I am 100% certain that if females were playable in a larger selection of games, it would be to the betterment of all involved. I am equally certain that it would have zero negative impact on the industry, or the existing self entitled male gamers.

    I don’t recall COD Ghosts doing badly due to female avatar inclusion. I don’t recall hearing screams of agony from the existing male COD player base upon having to deal with having female avatars in their game. It’s just too bad Ghosts was one of the weaker games in the series, but can’t be helped.

    Also, it’s a bit of a shit thing to say that you (not sure who it was!) don’t want a game to be “delayed” by a couple of days just so women can be in it. Are guys that self entitled? An entire gender has to be omitted so you can get a game a couple days earlier? What? And irony here: If women were planned from the start, there’d be no slip on a release date or budget. You’d be none the wiser. You wouldn’t complain if the game released with both genders. We wouldn’t be having this argument. Thus, we can say, no harm can come of including both genders. Excluding one though? Different story.

    #170 4 months ago
  171. salarta

    Hey, here’s a little fun reading for you guys, by A WOMANS on the subject!

    http://www.themarysue.com/ubisoft-female-characters-assassins-creed-unity/

    #171 4 months ago
  172. budoshi

    @salarta Hey, here’s a little fun reading for you guys, by A WOMANS on the subject!

    http://www.themarysue.com/ubisoft-female-characters-assassins-creed-unity/

    like i kept saying ubisoft dont care.. too risky. $ rules not equality. slowly we will get there.

    #172 4 months ago
  173. yeoung

    @silkvg247:

    Nope, I haven’t asked for anything. No wait, that’s not what’s happening here. I haven’t demanded or verbally tarred&feathered any developer that envisioned and released a game centered around only a female protagonist, I will be playing the game as it is designed, much like I played Bayonetta/Tomb Raider/Metroid/etc. Or when I feel that the character in question is not to my liking, I will abstain from playing that game.

    We are not on a level playing field here though, and I understand that, There is less to choose from for women who wish to play through female avatars. This is however not carte blanche to further your cause (which believe me, you are not in this manner, there’s a variety of more productive ways, some of which already brought to you attention) by means of scapegoating a developer/publisher into something. The bottom line is you have no right to demand anything. You can voice your desire, but if it falls on deaf ears that’s tough luck. Throwing a tantrum in response and resorting to namecalling is simply showing you feel entitled to have your way, but have no rational/reasonable/factual arguments to back it up

    I also did not compare women to car stickers. Please don’t tell me you misunderstood my little story to the point where I’m suspecting you’re being willfully dense in the hope that I disjoint my own arguments? I am not against female characters in gaming. Don’t make me have to say that again, please.

    My analogy needs no alterations, it recreates my central point and the various parties as well as the way the situation develops/escalates. Furthermore, wanting the games industry to diversify its protagonists/playable characters is all well and good, there is no wrong to be done there. I’d applaud every game to have options so that all who play them will have to rely less on their suspension of disbelief.

    (On a side note, VR will go a long way towards solving that issue, but I digress)

    The point I’ve been making for what seems like a painfully long time at this point, is the manner in which the situation is portrayed, the target chosen, (as others have pointed out the diversity in the AC franchise’s characters), and the manner in which you have chosen to victimize yourself in the hope of gaining emphatic support. It’s not strength you’re showing.

    Lastly, the manner in which you present your opinion, by using we is misleading and frankly a tad misguided. The saddest thing is, I’m totally on your side of the argument, and so is everybody else who isn’t a total jackass, you’re just trying really, really hard to drive home your sexism conspiracy and it’s overshadowing whatever point you could have hoped to make. A damn shame, that. Also, playing the misogyny card against me, isn’t doing you any favors.

    #173 4 months ago
  174. polygem

    @yeoung
    We’ll get the chance to discuss this again at some point. Check this article and the related ones, it shows my view on this but i am on a phone right now. It is too tempting for me to go into the lazy catchphrase mode because of that.

    #174 4 months ago
  175. TheKingInYellow

    @TheWulf

    “Also, don’t worry about the labels, Dave. I find that ‘social justice warrior’ is a drearily uncreative dysphemism for ‘social equality activist.’ Back in the ’80s, I tended to receive much more… colourful and imaginative insults for standing by my gay peeps.”

    So you’re a 50 year old person who trolls video game forums? That explains a lot then.

    #175 4 months ago
  176. yeoung

    One last thing, it’s gonna sound cheesy and cliche, but hell, I’m gonna go for it. Rather than demand or force a change, be the change you want to see in the world. Make your own game, Mod the PC version of AC:Unity, etc, etc.

    People wanted MP in Just Cause 2, but they didn’t go around calling Avalanche a bunch of anti-social assholes. They went ahead and made an MP component. Comparatively, a character mod must seem like a cinch.

    #176 4 months ago
  177. ddtd

    @BrokenSpline So their NPCs in the regards that they’re characters in the story, or just some random Assassins that pop up during coop missions, and aren’t voiced or a part if the plot?

    If it’s the later, then I think Ubisoft really missed out on an interesting immersive way to weave the coop together with the single player.

    #177 4 months ago
  178. ddtd

    @ddtd They’re, not their. I’m slow today.

    #178 4 months ago
  179. BrokenSpline

    @ddtd

    Its the latter. They are just copies of the main character with slight cosmetic tweaks.

    #179 4 months ago
  180. vicrysty

    Assassins Creed Unity looks impressive. I have read comments about the fact that why the main character is not a woman? Other heaven, as in the co-op one of the protagonists to be a woman. I played all the games in the series Assassins Creed, less Assassin’s Creed Liberation (female character) because I do not seemed plausible. The Ubisoft said they worked for three years at Unity, now ask them to change so many things to have a, female character is not OK. I think it’s better left as it is.

    #180 4 months ago
  181. Fragpuss

    I get the whole women issue… because women like to complain and moan and whine…. but considering the era unity is set in, the whole skin colour issue is complete crap if they want it accurate to the era and country it’s set in

    #181 4 months ago
  182. Game Hunter

    A point that nobody was aware of is that women don’t have beards.just look at the picture above and you get it.Beards are very important and those who have no beards are not true warriors. Vikings had them,Celts had them and also Britons had them.you’re not a warrior unless you have or can have a beard.

    Ultimate sarcasm above.

    #182 4 months ago
  183. Dragon

    @ddtd ,
    Yeah. Except to some nonsensical people, its clear that on that assumption, creating 2 lead characters (like maleshep and femshep) would have been a hassle within the timeframe and money constraints. Even if they are just copies of main characters, having a female model there would look odd since each player would be MC (I am assuming).

    Although I am not surprised many people here are unable to put forth their points without resorting to insult others. Just shows that they are not confident enough in their arguments.

    #183 4 months ago
  184. mahfara

    OK this is ridiculous. As a “non-white guy” I don’t need a gaming company to change their artistic directions to validate my presence in the society and make me feel “part of the gang”, I am sure any woman in her right mind wouldn’t care if the new AC game’s character has virtual boobs or not.

    #184 4 months ago
  185. Bashtee

    I’m not supporting this for the simple reason of double standards: if it was missing the option to choose a male character, nobody would care at all.

    #185 4 months ago
  186. Joe Musashi

    @129 The hashtag is inapprorpriate (my bad for using ‘misappropriated’) as the argument is not that that women are too difficult to animate.

    I think the discrete implication of incompetence is rather undone by the fact that the accusers aren’t even paying attention to what was said in the first place.

    @118 You know who else made demands, laid blame and declared forced change was a positive?

    HITLER

    (winks to #102).

    JM

    #186 4 months ago
  187. Panthro

    “Right now, the world doesn’t give a crap while 2,807 idiot’s cry over “equality” when in reality, they just dont like not being included in something.”

    How about fighting for equality in other areas which actually matter other than stupid, fictional, trivial, idiotic, meaningless videogame characters?

    A woman got stoned to death in the last few weeks for having relations with a man outside of what her family expected.

    There are far pressing matters in terms of equality you could be devoting your time to. Fucking hilarious.

    #187 4 months ago
  188. salarta

    @Joe Musashi Ah, then I agree the hashtag doesn’t fit. I already thought it wasn’t a very good one in general. it’s too long, and it focuses on only one aspect of what’s wrong with Ubisoft. It’s not solely that the company claims it would up too much time and too many resources to get it done, it’s also that the company talked about being a woman as a “feature” for the game.

    I can see the back of the box now.

    *Assassinate famous historical figures from the French Revolution
    *Play with up to four of your friends
    *Be a woman

    #188 4 months ago
  189. Levester

    @Dave Cook “@stagename Are you male? If so, then you can never fully understand.”
    are you fucking serious? holy shit this site has gone to hell. what a fucking stupid thing to say.
    how can someone this dumb be affiliated with any video game related websites???? Video games are art, ubisoft doesn’t have to add anything to their art that they dont want because they have the artistic freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. so can we stop bitching about this nonesense? forcing a gamedev to include a female character is like forcing an artist to paint something in a certain light/contrast/shade because the thats what the public wants to see. fuck all of you morons who dont understand this basic concept of game development.

    #189 4 months ago
  190. ddtd

    @BrokenSpline Ugh. Too bad. That’s less interesting.

    #190 4 months ago
  191. lubu

    i will sign it if they add nude female characters to it

    #191 4 months ago
  192. polygem

    Ah, i see people still believe politely asking for more equality in media is dictating personal preferences to the creators of this media. Well it’s not. It’s taking social responsibility and asking for the implementation of basic human rights.

    This is a multibillion stock market business by the way. Unfortunately. Don’t romanticise it as an artform. It’s a business first and foremost.

    Keep it coming. The more you complain about it and help to make this a huge internet drama, the earlier you will see more and more devs being more sensitive about it and including it.

    Again, asking for something, even loudly, passionately is the basis, the foundation of a democracy. Comparing this to hitler though is a propaganda method in a true goebbels style.

    I think you guys should think this through a little more before taking it to the internet. But hey it helps nonetheless so i wont complain.

    #192 4 months ago
  193. Joe Musashi

    If people see games as an art form, that is their right.

    It most certainly is a multi-billion dollar commercial enterprise.

    What it absolutely is not is something that is obligated adhere to any moral, ethic, social standards.

    And whilst the twisting, mis-quoting and rushing to be offended and inult, dismiss and ridicule anyone that doesn’t view things your way, I think it’s worth pointing out something else:

    Of all the E3 conferences, this or last year, which one was hosted by a 6 foot tall, black, woman?

    The fact that Ubisoft have one of the best records of demonstrating inclusiveness of any of the players in the industry, and that they demonstrate this over and over..

    ..is completely overlooked by those demanding inclusiveness is comprehensively damning in this increasingly cartoonish crusade.

    Being outraged is pretty common. Being rational, far less so.

    The more petty twisting, misinformation, misplaced #hashtags, outright dismissals, evidence-free claims, assumptions and, in particular, exploiting your own gender for your personal agenda, the more cartoonish this gig proves itself to be.

    As I said a way back:

    The principle is fine.
    The one-sided nature of the debate is poor.
    The execution is atrocious.

    JM

    #193 4 months ago
  194. polygem

    This is about some people asking for playable female characters in a game because, you know, for the most part, they are women. Makes kind of sense to me.

    That the internet fights this with tooth and nails…you can’t blame the ones asking for it.

    What these debates revealed though is that this indeed is all about sexism. It’s written all over the place on the internet, proven by many comments trying to fight this, using stereotype after stereotype to try proving their points. It’s deeply shocking but at the same time it helps because it reveals…Thesen changes are long overdue.

    #194 4 months ago
  195. Joe Musashi

    Your observations are misplaced, inaccurate and contradictory.

    Attaching yourself, like a mollusc, to what looks like a substantial principle and high-profile cause and then seeing you exploit it simply to do what you always do: say nothing, deride others, twist words and facts, manipulate and ridicule isn’t restoring the credibility you’ve already lost.

    The fact that this particular discussion has proved to be so farcical and exploitative shoots you down even further. And those that have done a lot of devaluing what was once a reasonable principle.

    Spouting copious amounts of self-serving and shit-stirring nonsense and then hiding behind the claim of “SEXISM!” when called out on it is ineffectual, superficial and incredibly damaging to the genuine issue.

    The simple fact is, if you and others genuinely cared, they wouldn’t be exploiting it in such a transparent cheap, sycophantic way.

    JM

    #195 4 months ago
  196. YoungZer0

    @polygem

    By that logic, neither do the other women.

    #196 4 months ago
  197. Joe Musashi

    @194 Oh, and watching you sow the seeds of a witchunt in your comments is a particularly unpleasant observation.

    JM

    #197 4 months ago
  198. YoungZer0

    @silkvg247

    „ you are woefully misguided if you think anything I have to say even borders on self pity. I have a good life, a great career , good health, an awesome gf, and exciting future plans.“

    Could’ve fooled me. Considering the many times where you cry about „the patriarchy“. The way you feel, does not reflect the way you act.

    „I don’t feel sorry for myself that the industry is moving backwards in equality.“

    You should however feel sorry for ignoring all the games that contradict your statement. I don’t know about which games from the 80’s and 90’s you’re talking about, but I’m guessing you fell victim to nostalgia. Most multiplayer games had less options, not more.

    „It frustrates me!“

    Then try to use that frustration on creating something positive, instead of forcing devs to do your bidding. Because that’s frustrating to them. No forced change is a positive one. Quite the opposite. Believe it or not, but I’m totally on board with having more female characters in games, but it’s the method you guys keep using that makes me side with the devs.

    We’re talking about Ubisoft here! The AC series had so many different ethnical characters, yet it seems all that, all their past efforts are being ignored, just because you guys want to see female assassins running next you. How is that not entitlement? How is that no biting the hand that feeds you?

    „I am 100% certain that if females were playable in a larger selection of games, it would be to the betterment of all involved.“

    I’d prefer to choose, but oh well.

    „existing self entitled male gamers.“

    Irony, I guess.

    „I don’t recall COD Ghosts doing badly due to female avatar inclusion.“

    And no one said it would. But that’s obviously something the Devs decided for themselves. Do you not understand the difference? No one forced them to do it.

    „I don’t recall hearing screams of agony from the existing male COD player base upon having to deal with having female avatars in their game.“

    Yet for some reason you called the same people self-entitled. Contradiction? D:

    „Also, it’s a bit of a shit thing to say that you (not sure who it was!) don’t want a game to be “delayed” by a couple of days just so women can be in it.“

    A couple of days. Sorry, but have you worked on the game? Do you know how much time it will cost to do that? If you don’t I recommend you don’t assume stuff. It does not help your cause.

    „Are guys that self entitled?“

    Here we go again, way to antagonize an entire gender.

    „If women were planned from the start, there’d be no slip on a release date or budget.“

    But they weren’t.

    „Thus, we can say, no harm can come of including both genders.“

    Except now, they have to go the extra length, just because you want to see other players as female assassin’s. That’s the problem.

    #198 4 months ago
  199. polygem

    Looking at joes reaction, i must have been spot on.

    You really care too much about finding the most “beautiful” words for your argument (i always imagine you as a raging peacock).

    You should focus more on the argument instead. Your conclusions often reveal that this is much more a show than it is smart thinking.

    The drama is, no matter how carefully you try to hide it…it remains visible for everyone who takes the time and attention to look at it.

    @young: no, these females don’t represent a whole gender either. Noone said that.If other women have problems with this, they can certainly speak for themselves though. They do not need boyfriends or husbands to do it for them.

    #199 4 months ago
  200. YoungZer0

    @polygem

    Yeah, they can, but they are not part of this community. Dumb argument.

    #200 4 months ago
  201. ExLee

    I think the devs should respond to this pointless debate in two ways: Either by saying something like “There no female characters because this games is our work of art and we have all the creative freedom to do whatever the fuck we want, so shut up !” or by putting a very terribly looking and badly animated female character at the very last minute and call her “Are you happy now ?” just to spite everyone :D

    #201 4 months ago
  202. polygem

    @YoungZer0
    But the girlfriend you’ve been talking about isn’t either. The argument is indeed dumb. But you used it. That’s what i’ve been trying to say (more politely).

    #202 4 months ago
  203. YoungZer0

    @polygem

    So you’re saying only the opinion of women that are part of this community matter?

    I’d totally agree with that, if you folks wouldn’t always make this a gender issue.

    #203 4 months ago
  204. YoungZer0

    Some of the comments in the petition really show just how fucking stupid people are.

    “Because I’m black, I play games, and I exist.”

    What exactly does this have to do with it?

    #204 4 months ago
  205. Joe Musashi

    @199 “You should focus more on the argument instead. Your conclusions often reveal that this is much more a show than it is smart thinking.”

    You can only say this is you are:

    a) A practitioner of particularly vacuous false statements
    b) Don’t read what people right
    c) Can’t comprehend
    d) All of the above

    In your case, D is applicable.

    I, and others, have highlighted the inconsistencies and falsehoods brought forth by those whose arguments have amounted to “This is what I want, you’re not doing it, therefore you’re sexist”. Gherrit White has succinctly (and knowingly) demonstrated this in a nutshell elsewhere by declaring games that don’t feature jewish protagonist’s as anti-semetic. They’re not, of course, but the leap in logic to draw such a conclusion is precisely the same leap.

    Add to that the manipulative and aggressive claims made by some. Assumptions and dismissal. Complete lack of evidence – all have been pointed out in a calm, rational manner.

    I have also been the one to share the hashtag that has been used for this ’cause’. And demonstrate its inaccuracy. If you were to bother to look at it, you’ll see just how far off-point statements have become as a result of that inaccuracy.

    I have also brough highly pertinent details concerning inclusiveness demonstrated by Ubisoft which whilst being entirely relevant, also demonstrate just how quickly the past efforts of the accused ‘sexist’ company have been overlooked/ignored/dismissed. Something I notice you’re making a point of doing yourself.

    When it comes to misrepresenting, misinterpreting, lying and being wrong, you truly set a standard few can match.

    Your talent to drain the credibility from whatever topic you associate yourself with is remarkable. It’s a genuine shame that you’ve significantly devalued a worthy principle with your immature and farcical behaviour.

    JM

    #205 4 months ago
  206. Joe Musashi

    @205 You need to spell-check.

    JM

    #206 4 months ago
  207. polygem

    I didn’t read all that joe (your last post).

    But i did read enough to see that you now entered your most desperate rage mode again because your argumentation has some deep holes.

    Now you’re getting personal again. The same shit you have been banned for multiple times. Grow the fuck up.

    I am pretty happy with my posts in this thread
    They represent my true opinion about this topic.

    They stand for themselves, no matter how desperately you are trying to twist it.

    #207 4 months ago
  208. Joe Musashi

    I didn’t read all that joe

    And there we have it.

    JM

    #208 4 months ago
  209. Legendaryboss

    “Its over 4700! What 4700? Wait that can’t be right! Sorry its over 9000! Rah!” This went way further than intended and Poly you’re doing it again.

    #209 4 months ago
  210. unacomn

    I’m all for this, but I’d like to point out one major plothole everyone is glancing over.

    “four-protagonist line-up ”

    There are no 4 protagonists. When you enter someone’s game nothing changes about your character. Everyone else just sees a color swapped version of the one single character. Even the poster makes them look like clones.

    It’s about as basic as a co-op mode can get. It’s more akin to the San Andreas co-op that got hacked into the game, where everyone is CJ.

    The more important thing people miss, is that they axed the proper multiplayer mode. The one that always had female characters. They did that because with Unity they switched tech and they need to get it out on time.

    It’s not a matter of “pumping out a game sooner”. There is no sooner, there is no later, there is only the release schedule that the series has had for the past 5 years.

    Also ” it’s easier to make white male after white male after white male”, this really ticks me off, because it paints Ubisoft as some chauvinistic, misogynistic, xenophobic company. AC1 had a middle eastern main character. AC3 had a native american character. Liberation had an african american female character. AC4BF had a second campaign with an african american man.
    Most importantly, again, every multiplayer mode in every AC game since Brotherhood had a more diverse cast of characters than you will ever see in any game.

    Comments such as these are born in ignorance, and spread it like wildfire. Dave, I hold you to higher standards than the average player, do not spread ignorance. Present the case, analyze it, hold Ubisoft accountable for their mistakes, for their deeply flawed yearly release schedule that drove the series into the ground, but don’t make it out to be some crusade against a grave injustice.

    No one complained about AC1, no one complained about AC2 or 3, you didn’t complain about Far Cry 3, which actually had some seriously disturbing undertones, but when they announce that a game that started development in 2010 does the same thing as the previous ones, you jump at their throat. At the throat of the company that probably has done more for social equality in games, by not just cramming in token characters, than any other.
    If you treat them like this, but let Rockstar off the hook and a dozen other studios that make little to no effort, what message does that send?

    Think before you feel. A gut reaction isn’t what’s going to end underrepresentation, it’s just building a mob that knows half the story and thinks the other party is completely and utterly evil.

    #210 4 months ago
  211. OrbitMonkey

    @unacomn, Its far too late for rational thought mate. This is now Feminazi White Knights versus Threatened Manchilds.

    Good points though. Ubi got sloppy, ignored a demographic they’ve peviously catered for & now have to weather this storm in a teacup.

    #211 4 months ago
  212. yeoung

    @Polygem:

    “This is about some people asking for playable female characters in a game because, you know, for the most part, they are women. Makes kind of sense to me.

    It’s not though, this is not what is going on here. This has been demonstrated numerous times and I have no earthly idea how it is even possible that you keep claiming that this is the case. Are you doing the devil’s advocate thing? Are you purposefully misrepresenting/misappropriating counterarguments or in fact supplanting your own counterarguments instead of those presented in order to be able to high-road fictional participants in this discussion?

    I am completely confused as to who you’re debating. Perhaps if you could do the copy-paste and direct answer thing, it’d make more sense. As it stands, it just seems like you’re trying to high-road no one in particular and arguing against no one either. It is incredibly confusing trying to make sense of it.

    #212 4 months ago
  213. polygem

    @yeoung. This is exactly about that and that alone. All you have to do to see it is to look beyond the internet drama of both camps.

    #213 4 months ago
  214. monkeygourmet

    C…C…Combo Breaker…!!!

    http://www.laparent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/gaming.jpg

    #214 4 months ago
  215. polygem

    :-D

    #215 4 months ago
  216. Joe Musashi

    @212 I was tempted to answer for you, but thought I’d let the inevitable non-answer present itself before doing so.

    Bluff and bluster. That’s why it makes no sense.

    @214 No women are playing games or represented in games in that picture. Nintendo, Wii-U, Miyamoto confirmed as sexist. Combo unbroken.

    JM

    #216 4 months ago
  217. polygem

    @Joe Musashi
    Your post showed yet again that you keep doing the talking but refuse to do the thinking. Completely missed the point of this debate. Yet. Again. At this point this just makes me blush and crave pasta.

    #217 4 months ago
  218. Joe Musashi

    Given your proud admission the you don’t read, it’s perfectly understandable how you fail to see the many entirely valid, on-topic, logical, rational factors I have brought into this ‘argument’.

    Choosing not to read, but refuting what was written. Not the smartest of plays.

    Your substance-free, cowardly, evasive non-answer in #213 is a perfect example of your trademark empty bluff and bluster.

    JM

    #218 4 months ago
  219. monkeygourmet

    I thinks more worthy focus should be on wether or not Ubisoft has managed to fix the frankly archaic and boring / broken gameplay mechanics from the previous AC games.

    But of course, as long as I’m represented, I don’t mind playing a broken, re-hash mess of a game, riddled with exclusive pre-order content and money grabbing DLC.

    For the record, ‘representation’ is a complete non-issue in this case and I’m getting sick of seeing people have to make excuses or become ‘brow beaten’ until they make a linguistic slip up thatis jumped upon.

    The fact we have zero information based on the 4 protagonists backgrounds yet, just shows how reactionary people are being. Especially as they have given no credit to Ubisofts past surrounding representation.

    AC’s ethnic diversity

    Beyond Good and Evil

    Valiant Hearts

    Etc, etc…

    Once again, make one media slip up and your previous bodies of work are cast aside, and the condemnation begins…

    The actually ‘gameplay’ and quality of the titles mentioned are the real important focus, and Ubisoft should suffer some criticism for the sub par releases of late.

    #219 4 months ago
  220. polygem

    Now i finally get it. You are roleplaying.

    #220 4 months ago
  221. polygem

    @polygem @joe

    #221 4 months ago
  222. Joe Musashi

    Ah, here we go. Never address your own critique just act like your catalogue of childish errors simply doesn’t exist, deflect and deploy conspiracy theory instead.

    Shamelessly transparent.

    JM

    #222 4 months ago
  223. boeing100

    This is such a first world problem & people have way too much time on their hands. You’re upset because there is a lack of female characters in a VIDEO GAME??? I love video games as much any of you but seriously aren’t there more important things to care about at this point in this messy world? Climate change, people dying of hunger, people dying of diseases etc. Get a grip, stop whining and move on with your life, there are people out there with actual problems…

    #223 4 months ago
  224. RPRezo

    Idiots… There is ONE character in this game, not four. And he is male.

    When Ubisoft has an option to make a playable female character – it does. Just look at Assassin’ multiplayer.

    So stop being bitching for bitching’s sake. Not everything is WORLD-SHATTERING AN ISSUE OF EQUALITY.

    #224 4 months ago
  225. kittykirru

    As a female I see no issue in this. Most games have male leads with limited or no female main characters anyway, and all of a sudden its an issue. .
    Just enjoy the game, it’s not really ‘excluding’ females, if anything it’s more realistic?
    *shrug*

    #225 4 months ago
  226. salarta

    @kittykirru There are a few issues here with this case.

    One is that we’re talking about options for character you use in co-op, not changing the character story-wise from a man into a woman. It’s not realistic for a group of assassins to all be the same man with different costumes, especially with how involved women really were with the French Revolution.

    Two is that Ubisoft themselves said they had playable women on their “features list” originally, but dropped it as something to add because of the resources it would take. This suggests that even Ubisoft themselves see no real excuse for excluding playable women from the co-op mode in terms of narrative or game mechanics.

    Third and final, the fact they referred to being a playable woman as a “feature,” some extra to add if they happen to have enough time and resources to get around to it, is very troubling. It says they don’t consider women important enough to consider whether or not they should be playable from the start and then allot resources to do exactly that. It all reinforces the notion that being a man is the default, while being a woman is just a nice extra to be dropped if it’s too inconvenient. Imagine how much of an uproar it would cause if a company said “We had being black on our features list, but we decided not to do it because it would take too much work to make a believable black person.”

    #226 4 months ago
  227. stretch215

    I just signed a petition to petition the ac: unity character petition

    #227 4 months ago
  228. Panthro

    @salarta

    You missed out the fact that each player see’s themselves as the main character, so you don’t get to ‘choose’ who you be, there is no ‘choice’ here.

    Everyone playing sees Arno as there character in there game, grasped that?

    Also in every AC multiplayer there has been playable women, alongside a full game featuring a black female as the main protagonist.

    People need to stop picking and choosing when they are offended and go after some real causes, this is typical overreacting for no reason at all bullshit.

    #228 4 months ago
  229. stretch215

    You male feminists sure are good for a laugh!! Thanks for the entertainment! Seriously.

    #229 4 months ago
  230. polygem

    This petition does not hurt anyone. All it does is asking for a more complete game, for a better gaming experience for more players. It´s not taking anything away from anyone. All it does is asking for something that seems to be very important for others. In that regard i really can´t see what´s wrong with it.

    This inustry has been extremely slow (like very very) to adapt to some social changes in the society. You can see that on all fronts, in almost every game. It changes lately, that´s great but also overdue. Expect even some more passionate reactions because of that.

    The drama, well, the drama shows on both camps really. The internet has always been a multiplicator, a drama factory.

    People are not asking for the implementation of this because they are having too much spare time or only seek for attention. They are not dictating it on others at all (These arguments drift very dangerously into a discriminantion zone though btw). No, all they do is to ask for it because they care about these issues, it´s important to them and some feel discriminated by the lack of it. It´s a very polite and democratic procedure to do just that.

    #230 4 months ago
  231. person

    There are tons of other games that don’t have female characters but you’re only mad at this one? Plus a black character wouldn’t make sense for France unless he was an ex-slave but they already did that.

    #231 2 months ago

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