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Far Cry 3 writer says we won’t see gay protagonist in AAA game for a while over sales fears

Friday, 28th February 2014 11:20 GMT By Dave Cook

Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon writer Lucien Soulban is openly gay, and has been asked for his opinion on gay protagonists in triple-a games during a new interview posted by Ubisoft. He feels it won’t happen for a while due to fears that it will bear a negative impact on sales.

Over on the Ubisoft blog, Soulban was asked when we could expect to see a gay hero in a triple-a game. He replied, “Oh boy. I think the real question is, When are going to get a gay/lesbian AAA hero(ine) who isn’t a one-off joke? You look at Javier Bardem in Skyfall, his character’s sexuality was total shtick to satisfy one scene. Otherwise, he was a narcissist with mommy issues, and a pedophile to boot.

“His ‘seduction’ of Bond was nothing more than vanity because Bond was his reflection, the new ‘him.’ Yay. So it bothers me when I hear people using his performance as a benchmark for diversity in entertainment, and I have heard it being bandied about.

“So when are we going to see that gay protagonist in a AAA game? Not for a while, I suspect, because of fears that it’ll impact sales. So either we’ll see a bait-and-switch like the original Metroid with Samus Aran where we’ll find out damn near after the fact (PS: And Dumbledore was gay), or it’ll come out of left field with Rockstar, Valve, Naughty Dog or Telltale, perhaps. But when it happens, I hope it’s a serious take on it and not played up for jokes.”

Soulban noted that we are seeing more gay characters in games these days and that it’s a quiet progression flagged by relationship choices in Mass Effect, Fable and Skyrim. “Videogames have stopped ‘announcing’ gay characters,” he added. “They’re introducing them without much fanfare in an effort to say, Yeah, it’s there and pretty normal. Call it: We’re here, we’re queer, and we’re busy working.

What’s your take on gaming’s approach to gay characters? Let us know below.

Via Polygon.

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208 Comments

  1. KAP

    Can you say “Mass Effect Series”?

    #1 5 months ago
  2. Fin

    @KAP

    Did you read the article?

    “Soulban noted that we are seeing more gay characters in games these days and that it’s a quiet progression flagged by relationship choices in Mass Effect, Fable and Skyrim.”

    #2 5 months ago
  3. Rikki

    Mass Effect? Dragon Age? Both my male character’s in those games were gay.

    #3 5 months ago
  4. Mike W

    @Rikki

    Yea but that was your choice, not the developers.

    #4 5 months ago
  5. fihar

    A blank slate of a character for you to shape on your own is different from a character that is written to be gay from the ground up though.

    Anyway, wasn’t Gay Tony gay? Or was Gay his actual first name?
    Might not the best example, but still an example.

    #5 5 months ago
  6. Mike W

    Here’s another question, does a gay man or woman gives a fuck if the protagonist is gay or not?

    #6 5 months ago
  7. Fin

    Jesus, did none of you read the article?

    It’s talking about protagonists that are explicitly gay.

    @Mike W

    Just about difference and inclusivity, not appealing to gay people (though it’d help, of course)

    #7 5 months ago
  8. Gekidami

    Left Behind?

    #8 5 months ago
  9. Erthazus

    Ellie is not gay/lesbian.
    When I was at school girls always kissed each other like that. and Ellie just showed that she cares about Riley. It was not seem sexual or lustful and in fact it showed that Ellie is a charming person.

    #9 5 months ago
  10. Gekidami

    ^ Yeah, no.

    Spoiler:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU0qz-dJna8&t=2m16s

    The context and reactions. Not just two school girls screwing around.

    #10 5 months ago
  11. silkvg247

    @9 Why must some people bury their heads in the sand and think of every possibly excuse apart from accepting the obvious? Are gay people really so horrendous? In that clip they are clearly more than friends. From the kiss itself to the reaction and lead up. Forgetting about gay, bi, straight.. the scene itself is showing love.

    #11 5 months ago
  12. Erthazus

    @Gekidami Are you an idiot? I was talking exactly about that moment. I played this DLC.
    To her, it was the best way of showing Riley how much she cares about her.

    @silkvg247, Nope. You are just crazy to see that if some girl kisses another one then she is automatically gay or anything. She wasn’t born in a society like ours. She was born into an apocalypse. Ellie knows little to none about being socially acceptable, probably due to people being too busy surviving than teaching Ellie what wouldn’t matter anymore anyway. This moment showed that Ellie cares about Riley and she does not want her to go away because she will be alone again. Easy as F.

    #12 5 months ago
  13. Dave Cook

    @Erthazus Gekidami’s totally right. It’s more than a simple kiss. I think it’s meant to be a sign of the whole ‘growing up is confusing, terrifying’ thing. She just loses it in the moment and does something silly and spontaneous.

    Wonderful scene at any rate.

    #13 5 months ago
  14. Mike W

    @Dave Cook

    I can’t believe I’m saying this :(

    But I agree with Erthazus, it was just a simple kiss to express how she felt about Riley at that particular moment.

    I think a lot of people are jumping the gun to say Ellie and Riley are gay because they see two girls kissing and I strongly believe that is not the case here.

    #14 5 months ago
  15. Sylrissa

    It’s not the kiss itself, but rather what happens before and after the kiss that convinces me that Ellie is gay. It’s more subtle and I can see why some wouldn’t see it.

    #15 5 months ago
  16. TheWulf

    I’d love to see more gay people in video games, to be honest. If not as the player character (which I’d understand), then as characters which are integral to the game’s plot whom the player has to interact with. And not just characters that become gay because you show interest in them, either.

    @11

    Oh, you have no idea, dear.

    Yes. Gay people are absolutely awful to the point where it seems that some gamers are so homophobic (and even xenophobic and insular in general) that they’d rather pretend we didn’t exist. The whole gaming culture reminds me so much of Japan in so many ways. If you want evidence, I have that.

    Arcade Gannon in New Vegas is overtly a bi-romantic gay man. He says so, frequently, to the player. Yet if you were to check the Fallout wiki for any information on this, it’s oddly not present. I tried to add in this information both before and after the Fallout wiki split. And I was disgusted and repulsed by how they tried to bury what I had to say on the matter. They’d ask for citations, I’d give them citations. They’d ask for more citations, and I’d give them more citations.

    At one point I even gave them Arcade Gannon’s dialogue files and told them where to look. Apparently gay people are horrible, ugly mutants to be ignored in favour of the straight Master Race, which is an oddly omnipresent attitude amongst many gamers I’ve spoken with. I’m not saying that all of them are like this, of course, but you’ll see that attitude everywhere. And that’s why they’re afraid of this hurting sales, because most of the gamers I’ve encountered have had anywhere between a negative to a violent opinion of gay people.

    Of course, were this a better medium with better values, then they’d have a ‘profits be damned’ attitude. I know that many film makers have had that attitude when it comes to adding gay characters to their roster. Likewise with entire television series surrounding or involving gay people. But gaming seems to be insurmountable when it comes to the widespread introduction of gay characters. And, again, I think that’s due to the insular nature of gamers.

    Gamers today kind of remind me of the popular view of Japan. There’s just so, so much xenophobia and stupidity around that you just don’t want to deal with it. Often, you’ll just want to distance yourself from it to say that, hey, no, I’m actually not like that. I often make the distinction to new people I talk to that I’m not a ‘gamer,’ I’m just someone who likes to play interesting games.

    There’s so much stigma attached to ‘gamer,’ now, and there’s no one to blame for this other than gamers themselves.

    #16 5 months ago
  17. Gekidami

    Cant say i’m surprised Erthazus doesnt get it, the only human emotion he understands is rage and the only reaction is butthurt.

    But anyway:
    “She wasn’t born in a society like ours. She was born into an apocalypse. Ellie knows little to none about being socially acceptable”
    Same-sex kissing = not sociably acceptable.

    @Mike W
    I’m hardly a ‘touchy-feely’ guy, but seriously, the intent in that scene is pretty cut’n'dry. Its kind of weird there are people that cant see it.

    From the context of the kiss, to Ellie’s reactions just before it happens, to both of their reactions after. Remember that this is a scene in a game made by people, if they wanted to express “You’re my bestest best friend forever!” they would have done it another way, most likely with a just a hug. In fiction, when you get a heartfelt demand, with an awkward silence then a long stare followed by a mouth kiss… I mean its pretty black & white what the devs were trying to express.

    #17 5 months ago
  18. Michael Ireland

    Even if Ellie was gay (she isn’t, people are just reading into things too much), that was a detail presented in DLC, not the main game. Nor was it explicitly stated.

    “Build your own character” avatars are not the same thing either, as they are what you make them. Romance is BioWare games has always been terrible though. It’s always highly cliched and overly simplistic.

    They also highlight a huge bias when it comes to gay characters. Other than Dragon Age, there’s always been a leaning towards gay female characters, and a bias against male one. For obvious reasons – most men find the latter hot and the former awkward.

    Mass Effect 3 tried a gay male character, but he not only got a tiny amount of screen time and development, but his story was insulting.

    We won’t see a proper gay character in a lead role any time soon. As much as we’d like to champion freedom in this day and age, people are sadly still largely ignorant and judgemental.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same, as they say.

    #18 5 months ago
  19. TheWulf

    I will still assert that Arcade Gannon is still the best gay character I’ve come across in anything, ever. He was subtly handled as just a normal gay person, he wasn’t over the top, nor was his approach to things insulting. Honestly, he was hands-down the most intelligent person in the game. The only other character that came close in regards to sheer intellect was Raul, and he was amazingly open-minded, too.

    Arcade is often overlooked though, which is a shame, because I’d love to see more characters like him in games. He was a character that didn’t turn gay because the player was interested in him, it was integral to his personality and past. It was as much a part of him as anything else, and it was well written. I can’t think of a gay character in video games who’s been handled better.

    This is one of the reasons I have so, so much respect for Obsidian. They did that. Way back in 2010. Four years ago. And the fans of Fallout (typically insular muscleheads, apparently) are still trying their best to stick their heads in the sand and forget that it ever happened. But it did!

    If I’d trust anyone to write a believable gay character in the future, it would be Obsidian. And if you haven’t ever discovered this about Arcade, you simply haven’t talked to him enough. I also liked how he put on sarcastic, even purposefully ironic pseudo-intellectual airs as a defence mechanism to defend him from the kinds of xenophobic people he regularly had to cope with, and even help as a doctor. I think it was his way of dealing with how the people he wanted to save might hate him if they knew the truth about him.

    He had a real depth that I haven’t seen since, honestly.

    #19 5 months ago
  20. Sylrissa

    “that was a detail presented in DLC, not the main game. Nor was it explicitly stated.”

    So now it has to be explicitly stated that a character is gay? or they are straight?, I thought people hated it being ‘shoved down their throats’ like that, Ellie being gay had nothing to do with the main story, hence it made no sense to mention in the context of the journey Joel and Ellie were on in the main game.

    A person isn’t defined by their sexuality, and can be gay/lesbian/bi/trans without bluntly spelling it out for you.

    #20 5 months ago
  21. Michael Ireland

    @Sylrissa No, of course not.

    But the point the writer was making is that we’re not going to see a gay character headlining a game any time soon. There’s absolutely nothing to even remotely insinuate that Ellie might be in the main game, to the point where there’s absolutely no reason to even remotely assume that she would be.

    I think it would be great to have a character like that, but if they are then it *should* be apparent in the story, whether through their interactions with people of the same or opposite gender or the relationships they build up with them. People are defined by their sexuality, and it’s going to have at least a small and subtle effect on the way they interact with others, especially in a good story, where those interactions are key to developing empathy for them.

    But most men will see a gay relationship between two men and straight up find it gross.

    #21 5 months ago
  22. BrokenSpline

    @Michael Ireland

    So ignore the DLC because its not in the main game? I am not sure why people are people are putting their heads in the sand. Are we ignoring BIll as well in Last of US?

    #22 5 months ago
  23. Erthazus

    @Gekidami I get it because I saw these girls doing it in front of me and not just for fun but for a reason to thank each other.

    But you are just a stupid nerd that never saw a girl so… It’s a normal thing for you to say that she is Gay… because she kissed a GURL.

    Fact is, it was not seem sexual or lustful. She kissed her to THANK her for being together at this moment.

    #23 5 months ago
  24. Beta

    Related to The Last of Us DLC.

    http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2014/02/24/the-last-of-us-left-behind-plot-point-explained-by-druckmann-ellies-job-explained/

    ‘One of the biggest moments of Left Behind is when Ellie kisses Riley, which obviously raised questions about Ellie’s sexuality. Giving at least their side of it, Druckmann explained:

    Actually our intention in writing (and the actors’ performances) is that they’re gay… but I understand that people have different interpretations to the material.

    When a commenter brought up that people think it may have been a platonic kiss between friends, Druckmann replied, “It wasn’t my intention in writing that scene for it to be platonic… but at the same time I can’t tell people their interpretation is wrong, even if I disagree with it.”

    Seems pretty open and shut to me.

    #24 5 months ago
  25. Sylrissa

    Thank you very much for that link Beta. I knew I felt that from watching that scene play out, it’s nice to have it confirmed from them officially.

    #25 5 months ago
  26. Beta

    @Sylrissa You’re welcome :) I never sensed any ambiguity in that scene myself. Surprised that some people view it differently.

    #26 5 months ago
  27. Sylrissa

    @Erthazus Fact is, you’re wrong, and it was exactly what several people have been saying in this thread. Read the interview with the writers that Beta linked just above.

    #27 5 months ago
  28. Gekidami

    Yeah, so there you go, straight from the creator. Its insane people just couldnt pick it up from the scene alone though.

    Oh hey Erthazus. Hows your day going? Take some time to wipe that eye of your face, will you. Though at this point you should have a daily reserved time slot, what with it happening so often.

    #28 5 months ago
  29. Gekidami

    @Gekidami
    Meant egg there, egg on his face. He knows though, force of habit.

    #29 5 months ago
  30. BrokenSpline

    That scene just confirmed it but it was throughout the entire DLC that Ellie was interested in Riley in a romantic way. People just putting their blinders on.

    #30 5 months ago
  31. Goofiestchief

    @Beta

    @Gekidami

    @Slyrissa

    @BrokenSpline

    You guys really want a 14 year old to be gay huh? Even going so far as to twist the words of the creators to fit your needs.

    @Beta
    Explain to me how a guy saying a story is up to interpretation is “Open and shut” ?

    @Gekidami and Slyrissa
    Neil has also stated that at the end of TLOU, Ellie now “hates” Joel. I’m sorry but I think there’s a lot of gamers out there that think he’s full of crap on that one. So why do you consider his word law now? Cause you think it agrees with you?

    You want some quotes?

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    Saying its up to interpretation is not confirming.

    I recall the “material” telling me that Ellie put in the effort to steal a male porn magazine .

    “Come on I want to see what all the fuss is about”

    “Light on the reading but it’s got some interesting photos”.

    Not to mention referring to Riley as her “best friend”.

    Are these “cut and dry” Gekidami?

    “an emotional scene from The Last of Us: Left Behind, main character Ellie kisses her female friend Riley. Does this mean she is gay or bisexual? “Who cares?” game director Bruce Straley says”

    On Reddit’s AMA, Bruce confirmed that if Riley were a guy, nothing would have changed…Riley just so happened to be a girl in the American Dream comics.

    And last but not least. Ellie herself.

    http://m.ign.com/videos/2014/02/24/reinventing-the-last-of-us-ellie-reinventing-thief-up-at-noon

    Ashley Johnson herself came out and said that Ellie’s love for Riley came more from desperation and the fact that Riley was all she had rather than a literal gay/straight/bi attraction to her. Basically saying that Ellie would’ve kissed her no matter her gender.

    @Broken Spline

    What you call “love signals” are things that I see straight people do everyday. You need to get out more. Forgetting the Dlc ever happened and what the other guy was describing are two different things. It’s pretty obvious that Left behind Ellie and TLOU Ellie are very different.

    @Gekidami

    It’s far from cut and dry. It’s pretty obvious that Ellie is terrified of being alone. Riley is all she has in a post apocalyptic world. If you were all I had and you had to leave, Id embrace you and kiss you too no matter your gender.

    #31 5 months ago
  32. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami There’s also a few cut and dry moments of her acting straight in the main game. You probably think too much of the left behind moments cause its a small package and think of it as obvious.

    For example, someone that picked the “best friend” part in the phone booth may look at them as best friends.

    #32 5 months ago
  33. Goofiestchief

    Lastly in an article on ign written by Keza and actually congratulated by Neil on Twitter.

    “Is Ellie gay? Maybe. Maybe she’s bisexual, maybe she’s straight but loves Riley and just went with the moment. When you’re a teenager you don’t know these things about yourself. ”

    And lastly lastly, I Borrowed this quote from a guy on gamefaqs

    “I’m pretty confident I can explain this for you guys. There is no way to know if Ellie is a lesbian unless we see her as an adult where she’s actually old enough to act on her sexual urges and define herself either way. So there will never be a straight answer (pun intended).

    BUT I do want to talk about what prompted people to think this and why it’s completely off base. Simply kissing another girl at her age does not automatically make her a lesbian. The tom boy thing is not a sign either as not every tomboy is a lesbian. In fact most aren’t.

    I hate to play psychologist but I’m going to do it anyway. It is actually very common for young girls to experiment with their girl friends or develop crushes on them. It usually just means they are really good friends. Girls mature and go through puberty much faster than guys do and their hormones start to kick in. Since they aren’t developed enough or old enough to start doing anything sexual with boys, they experiment with their best friends to find out what kissing or touching feels like. Ever hear about little girls playing “House”?? What do you think this is? One pretends to be the husband and the other is the wife. It usually is just devolves into a way for girls to experiment with each other.

    They are confused about how their body works and might “inspect” a friend or ask them about things just to make sure they are the same way. They are confused about these sexual feelings and not sure whether it’s a friendship thing or a loving emotion or what relationships even mean, and so they might express it in the wrong situations. It DOES NOT mean they are a lesbian. If it did then 90% of girls would be lesbians.

    Now combine that with the fact that Ellie grew up after the apocalypse where the concept of society and relationships is very scarce, and you’ll have a severely confused kid. Or perhaps a kid who has developed extremely good values that are proprietary to her environment where “gay” or insults like “homo” don’t exist, just as sexual orientations don’t exist. The stigma or declaration isn’t there and so it simply ceases to be.

    The answer is simple. There is no answer.”

    ^This probably explains why Neil said he wrote her the way he did.

    #33 5 months ago
  34. BrokenSpline

    @Goofiestchief

    “What you call “love signals” are things that I see straight people do everyday. You need to get out more. Forgetting the Dlc ever happened and what the other guy was describing are two different things. It’s pretty obvious that Left behind Ellie and TLOU Ellie are very different.”

    I have never kissed my best friend on the mouth. I know I must be weird. ANd saying that the Ellie in the DLC and the one in the main game are two separate character only shows that you are grasping. Nothing more or less and I would believe the freaking creative director over someone on the internet. He was in charge of the entire story through out. If you want to stick you head in the ground and ignore everything even the creative director the one in charge of the art, animation and story that is your choice although moronic.

    #34 5 months ago
  35. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    Can you actually swallow your pride and become more open minded?

    Even Naughty dog said that Ellie was meant to be more playful and vulnerable. She had never even killed a person yet. Everyone and their grandma knows that Ellie changes dramatically over the main game. For you to say otherwise says more about how little you know about the game than anything else.

    HELLO ANYBODY IN THERE?!!!

    “Some guy on the internet?”?

    Ashley Johnson who voice acted Ellie is some guy? The closest thing to a real life Ellie? Who the writers including the creative director adapted the script too?

    How bout the game director bruce? Some guy?

    Neil is the creative director smart one.

    And about about that creative director that you praise so much? He’s one of the people I quoted saying its up to interpretation. Go read some of the stuff he said about the main game and tell me he’s the all seeing eye and how much you agree with him now.

    #35 5 months ago
  36. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    Sorry I didn’t realize you had a time machine and could go back to see every minute of your childhood.

    Did I say every kid experimented? No. In fact it’s probably not as common now in this politically correct babied world.

    And kissing isn’t the only thing kids do to experiment.

    #36 5 months ago
  37. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief Not to mention having a machine that could go to a fictional post apocalyptic world and see how those kids experiment.

    #37 5 months ago
  38. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline The entire Naughty dog staff is quoting things that disagree with you so don’t call me moronic if you’re the guy who wants a peck on the lips to mean 100% gay.

    #38 5 months ago
  39. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    Thinking a man( creative director)is gonna know more about a girl than that girls own actor who is also a girl? Good logic.

    #39 5 months ago
  40. BrokenSpline

    @Goofiestchief

    Neil writes Ashley’s checks so her opinion at the end of the day is irrelevant. Neil say it himself. ANd it may be a phase and that is fine and really irrelevant because the game is done.

    #40 5 months ago
  41. BrokenSpline

    @Goofiestchief
    “you’re the guy who wants a peck on the lips to mean 100% gay.”

    Where did I say that? Never. I never said she was 100% gay or that one instance defined her as such. You are putting words in my mouth so it fits your needs to create an argument. Moving on.

    #41 5 months ago
  42. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline Wow.

    How did you even get an account on here cause you either can’t read or are refusing to listen to reason.

    First of all. No. Neil does not cash Ashley’s checks. Neil is just a writer.

    The co presidents Evan Wells and Christophe Balestra do. They also cash Neil’s checks.

    Second of all. Neil himself said that it was up to interpretation. I still don’t understand why your apparently not bright enough to see this. He also said that Ellie hates Joel at the end of the game. You don’t believe this but you believe him about the gay stuff?

    Third of all. Bruce Straley has equal control over the project just as much as Neil yet you focus on Neil( despite him disagreeing with you).?

    “Where did I say that? Never.”

    Put 2 and 2 together smart one. I’ve already told you that everything that was done in left behind is done by straight girls too.

    #42 5 months ago
  43. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline “Because the game is done”.

    For a guy that calls himself a fan, he sure seems to just want it to go away.

    And the game being done means nothing. It’s still always gonna be up to interpretation whether bias brats want it to or not.

    Nobody at naughty dog has confirmed anything so your argument is just evasive ramble.

    #43 5 months ago
  44. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline And the game being done also means the “straight signals” remain.

    Plus if everyone at naughty dog wanted to be gay, the best friend option in the phone booth wouldn’t be there.

    #44 5 months ago
  45. BrokenSpline

    “He also said that Ellie hates Joel at the end of the game. You don’t believe this but you believe him about the gay stuff?”

    Where did I deny this. I agree with him. So there.

    ” Neil is just a writer.”

    Uh no. He is the creative director and co-writer. Creative Director is in charge of all aspects related to the game. I am not sure where you are getting this just a writer bs.

    “For a guy that calls himself a fan, he sure seems to just want it to go away.”

    What? Again where did I say this? The game is done and for all we know they may not revisit Joel or Ellie if they do bring another game. I feel that since they have created this lore rich world there is no absolute need to revisit Joel and Ellie.

    “Nobody at naughty dog has confirmed anything so your argument is just evasive ramble.”

    http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2014/02/24/the-last-of-us-left-behind-plot-point-explained-by-druckmann-ellies-job-explained/

    “Actually our intention in writing (and the actors’ performances) is that they’re gay… but I understand that people have different interpretations to the material.” ~ Neil

    I am done arguing with you especially with your ad hominems to try to undervalue my opinion.

    #45 5 months ago
  46. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    “I agree with him”

    Yet you throw his name around like its the only thing that matters. You literally have no base for your argument other than thinking that Neil agrees with you. Which is funny cause he doesn’t.

    Co writer. As in not the only writer that matters yet your impressions imply him to be a God( like stupidly saying he cashes Ashley’s checks). You praise him like a god yet you only agree with him on this one topic.

    You throw up all his credentials when in reality the only thing you actually care about is his opinion on the gay thing. You’d look to him if he was the janitor.

    Go watch “grounded making the last of us” and tell me he’s in charge. He will be the first to tell you that Bruce did just as much with the design.

    Get your facts straight. Naughty dog has already confirmed that they’re considering returning to Joel and Ellie.

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    -Neil

    “an emotional scene from The Last of Us: Left Behind, main character Ellie kisses her female friend Riley. Does this mean she is gay or bisexual? “Who cares?” game director Bruce Straley says”

    Plus Bruce’s statement on the reddit AMA.

    “I think when you have a person that you care about who is all you have in this world, you’re thinking; I’m gonna kiss you”.

    -Ashley

    http://m.ign.com/videos/2014/02/24/reinventing-the-last-of-us-ellie-reinventing-thief-up-at-noon

    “Is Ellie gay? Maybe. Maybe she’s bisexual, maybe she’s straight but loves Riley and just went with the moment. When you’re a teenager you don’t know these things about yourself.”

    -Ign article recommended by Neil.

    Still wanna play the quote source game?

    Your only responses to my fledged out paragraphs is with about half a paragraph on every one comment you make about something vague and I’m the one who has issues?

    Go ahead and leave. With your ignorant tone, you probably don’t even know what an ad hominem is.

    You called Ellie gay and think that anyone who disagrees with you is moronic and I’m the one defending the obvious fact that it’s up to interpretation and I’m the one with problems?

    #46 5 months ago
  47. BrokenSpline

    @Goofiestchief

    Blah Blah Blah, You are right about everything. Feel good. DOes proveing yourself to a faceless internet poster make you feel warm and gooey and inside. Does it turn you on? Do you twist your nipples while you read your own posts?

    WHen I read your posts this is all I see.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UJ9Ggs3Dkk

    #47 5 months ago
  48. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    Way to take the old “evasive” argument on this. We’ve gone from actually talking about something to just personal insults.

    This is a comment board on an article. Comment boards are for opinions and debates. This is not some YouTube board for you to say OMG TROLOLLOL YOLO!!!

    What do the kids call it? Butthurt? That seems accurate now.

    If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    #48 5 months ago
  49. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline I’m sorry if someone disagreeing with you is so gut wrenchingly painful and cringe worthy for you.

    #49 5 months ago
  50. Beta

    @GoofiestChief Wow. The sheer amount of comments you’ve made on this :’)

    You seem VERY determined to prove that Ellie is not gay. That brings up more questions about you than the fictional character..

    Don’t bother replying, I’ve no desire to be bored by a “snappy” retort :) Though I’m sure you will anyway. Good night.

    #50 5 months ago
  51. Goofiestchief

    @Beta Well I’m obviously behind in this comment section so I naturally need multiple since there’s more than one person.

    And actually you’d be wrong about the straight thing.
    I couldn’t care less if Ellie is gay. It’s just from my experiences in the main game, I can’t find the idea of her being gay obvious. Especially at 14.

    #51 5 months ago
  52. Beta

    @Goofiestchief Told you you’d reply… If you couldn’t care less then why are you still debating others opinions?

    Seems a little hypocritical.

    #52 5 months ago
  53. Goofiestchief

    @Beta

    You put in the effort to find links to devs about TLOU so I’d say we’re even. And my point has more to do with defending free speech and the right to interpret art rather than obsessing over a fictional character.

    To say you think Ellie is gay is one thing. To say its so obvious and any other interpretation is either blind or moronic is another.

    #53 5 months ago
  54. Goofiestchief

    @Beta Because I’m not debating a gay/straight war.

    I’m debating whether or not Ellie being gay is a fact or an interpretation of art.

    Not whether or not she’s gay or straight.

    #54 5 months ago
  55. BrokenSpline

    @Goofiestchief

    The funny thing is you are the one getting butthurt. I am over here just waiting for my shift to end. THat’s it. If you think I am boo-hooing over your comments you would be sorely mistaken.

    #55 5 months ago
  56. Beta

    @Goofiestchief Not links. Link. I think you’ll find I linked one interview to add the creators opinion from a site which I already had open when I found this page :)

    Hardly the same effort. I commented once. Not 16 times..

    #56 5 months ago
  57. Goofiestchief

    @BrokenSpline

    *sigh*

    I thought you said you were done with me.

    #57 5 months ago
  58. Goofiestchief

    @Beta Fair enough. Although I don’t know if you’re on a computer cause Im on an iPod which is a lot faster to type on than my a computer for me.

    #58 5 months ago
  59. Goofiestchief

    @Beta Fair enough. You and I have different reasonings for arguing.

    #59 5 months ago
  60. Goofiestchief

    @Beta Most of my comments are small tidbits I forgot about. Having OCD naturally makes want to plug all holes.

    #60 5 months ago
  61. Michael Ireland

    Fair dues to the writer if he intended the character as such. If that was his intention, that’s great, and I will take his word for it.

    Unfortunately, this is a scenario tucked away in DLC that not everyone will play, and so it limits it’s exposure. I would like to see a game actually tackle a story where the main character is gay and their relationships with other people actually factor into the story directly, but yeah… ain’t gonna happen any time soon.

    #61 5 months ago
  62. Goofiestchief

    @Michael Ireland He basically said he originally cowrote it that way but that the interpretations took on a life of their own. Some people at ND disagree but it’s his interpretation.

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself”

    #62 5 months ago
  63. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief

    Basically saying the script had a differing feel compared to the actual game.

    #63 5 months ago
  64. Michael Ireland

    @Goofiestchief It was his intention to make the character gay. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the only interpretation that matters.

    I think Ellie’s emotional maturity is way out of sync with her physical age, but that’s another topic altogether.

    #64 5 months ago
  65. Goofiestchief

    @Michael Ireland

    Well it was also his intention to make Ellie hate and despise Joel at the end of the game.

    Making her love someone who happens to be a girl and making her actually gay are two different things. Bruce for example who was the other writer for the game felt it was up to interpretation. As did Ellie’s own voice actress.

    It’s fine he intended to make her gay originally but I don’t think it came out that way.

    I imagine there’s been past intentions for making a main character gay that got scrapped in other games and Ellie’s another one.

    Personally I find the idea of giving someone who isn’t even a teenager yet a sexual orientation( especially in a post apocalyptic world)weird which is why I left her to interpretation( though if I had to choose, I’d say she’s straight).

    #65 5 months ago
  66. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief I liked Ashley’s interpretation best which was it had a lot more to do with Riley being the only person she had, and that Ellie would kiss her no matter her gender anyway.

    #66 5 months ago
  67. Goofiestchief

    @Michael Ireland

    “That’s the only interpretation that matters”.

    I think Neil would disagree. He wasn’t the only one writing. And he said himself that the what the material says can differ from what he feels.

    #67 5 months ago
  68. Michael Ireland

    @Goofiestchief And that’s your choice to interpret it that way. I choose to interpret it as he intended it.

    #68 5 months ago
  69. Goofiestchief

    @Michael Ireland

    But what is he interpreting? He’s not the only writer. Bruce Straley has a differing idea. Him thinking that doesn’t mean it’s actually in the game.

    Is she permanently gay in the scientific sense?

    Was she just “gay” for left behind and “grew out of it” in the main game?

    Is she bi?

    Was she even gay at all?

    In this kind of topic in which 100% of all ideas are up to individual interpretation, I would personally take Ashley Johnson’s opinion as the closest thing to an “objective truth”.

    #69 5 months ago
  70. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief What was your actual experience from the game itself I think is what Neil meant cause he’d probably be the first one to tell you that his opinion doesn’t “mean more” than others and his credentials mean nothing in this situation.

    #70 5 months ago
  71. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief Did he actually intend it the way you think he did?

    #71 5 months ago
  72. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief You said it yourself that sexual orientation didn’t make sene for her cause of her age.

    #72 5 months ago
  73. Gekidami

    @Goofiestchief
    Its not up to interpretation because its the writer who sets the standards for the character, not the fans. The writer says Ellie is gay, then sorry but no matter what you and some other fans say, thats now the standard for her. If the writer does any more content with that character, he’s going to continue writing her as a gay character.

    Everything you’ve posted is just stuff about vague interpretation, but nothing about anyone from ND saying “Ellie? Gay? No, i dont agree with that”. In till you have that quote, you’ve got nothing.

    The official word from ND is that he wrote the character as gay. No interpretation, thats how he wrote it, he blatantly said it. If he wanted it to be open to interpretation we wouldnt have came out and said that. And dont give me this ‘not the only writer’ crap, like i said, either you have a quote from another writer saying Ellie isnt gay, or you have nothing.

    And Ashley Johnson, despite playing Ellie, doesnt decide how the character evolves, she just reads the lines. The writers do. Her interpretation of the game is about as valid and any random persons on the internet.

    #73 5 months ago
  74. ddtd

    Wow. A lot of comments on Ellie here.

    Here’s my take on this.

    In art–especially good art–most things can be up for interpretation, especially when the artist/writer is intentional holding back to make the viewer/reader work to understand the piece.

    With that said, in order for a writer to create a believable character that’s not just some “thing” that’s solely there to service the plot, the writer needs to know who these characters are.

    So, yes, if the writer–the person who created Ellie–says she’s gay, then she is gay. That’s a fact, especially since he decided to spell it out. However, since the writer chose to withhold that, or to purposefully not make it 100% clear, then he is still leaving it up to interpretation though he is in the know. Why? Because once the author/artist puts a work out there, he loses some ownership of its meaning to the viewing/reading public. They’re going to consume it, process it, and do with it what they will.

    Why do that? Maybe he wanted people to work to the truth. There’s a certain satisfaction in figuring out an author’s intentions, or gaming some insight into the psychology of a character, or a deeper meaning to a story on your own, without handholding or exposition. Or maybe the purpose was to create a debate.

    #74 5 months ago
  75. Sylrissa

    @Goofiestchief “Was she just “gay” for left behind and “grew out of it” in the main game?”

    I’m going to be as polite as I can considering the awful suggestion you just made.

    Don’t EVER AGAIN even hint at or suggest that someone can “grow out” of being gay/lesbian/bi/trans etc, maybe you just don’t know any better, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt in not knowing how incredibly insulting and degrading that is.

    I get enough of that crap from my religious relatives, and I’m a 30 year old married woman, you can’t imagine what it’s like for a teenager to be told that.

    #75 5 months ago
  76. Gekidami

    Assuming that we should see Ellie is gay in the main game is just ridiculous, in fact its easy to show just how much using Joel:

    Before the outbreak Joel is living alone with his daughter, theres no wife in sight, no girlfriend ever mentioned, his daughters mother doesnt seem to exist, there are on pictures of her. Even the photo Joel is given by his brother only has Joel and his daughter on it.

    20 years later and Joel is living on his own, he hangs out with a women, but its clearly just a platonic relationship/business relationship, this is clear because when Tess is offed, Joel isnt happy but he clearly isnt heart broken either. He’s lost a friend, not a loved one. Joel also never talks about Ellies mother and refuses to.

    At no point can we really assume Joel is straight, seriously theres no real reason to think so. For all we know his daughter could have been from a surrogate mother, or adopted. Of course the thing is, theres no reason for us to think he’s gay either. At no point does he make any suggestion as to being so.

    Why? Because just like with Ellie, Joel’s sexuality isnt important to the mùain games plot, so theres no mention of it either way. In Left Behind however, its important because of Ellies relationship with Riley. So it gets a spot.

    #76 5 months ago
  77. Goofiestchief

    @Sylrissa Don’t get your panties in a bunch.

    #77 5 months ago
  78. Sylrissa

    And with that oh so mature response, I’m through with you.

    You’re obviously set in your way and refuse to listen to reason, I had hoped you were just misinformed and would listen and learn what you did wrong, but it seems I was mistaken to have such hope for you.

    #78 5 months ago
  79. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami You really need to go back to writing class. Most general ideas of all art are ones the artist did NOT intend.

    If Neil said he intended Ellie to be an elephant, would you defend him then? Neil also intended for Ellie to hate Joel which is certainly something a lot of people would call him out on as full of crap.

    First of all, Neil is a cowriter. One of many. Not THE writer. Bruce Straley has a similar job. Why does his word of “it’s up to interpretation and she could be bi, gay, or whatever mean nothing? This is another example of you just wanting Ellie to be gay. You will take Neil’s opinion of her being gay as fact but not his opinion of it being up to interpretation and all points are fair.

    She’s gay- ITS AN UNDISPUTED CONFIRMED FACT

    It’s up to interpretation- Oh no that can’t be true cause it disagrees with my outlook.

    Second of all, all he ever says is that he originally intended for her to be gay. Doesn’t mean others had the same intentions and it actually came out that way in the finished product.

    Third. The fact that you still think I’m looking for someone to say Ellie is straight shows how little attention you’re paying. All I need is people to say its up to interpretation(which Neil, Bruce, and Ashley have already provided), then statements of gay/bi/ or straight are all valid. Bruce himself came out on reddit AMA and said Ellie would kiss Riley no matter her gender, not because of her gender.,

    Fourth. It’s funny how you think the relationships between two preteens is somehow equal to that of middle aged adults.

    Your Joel argument has no merit because it’s well known in multiple conversations between Tess and Joel that they were clearly attracted to and that they are adults. It is also well know that at that point, Joel never showed emotion because he was too removed from the world.

    There is zero hint that Joel is gay. There are however multiple hints that Ellie is straight.
    I also think its funny how you seem to know everything in Joel’s home despite it being impossible to scour the whole home.
    Straight hints.

    Male porn stealing

    Dialogue showing of Interest in magazine

    Relationship with Sam

    Calling Riley a ” best friend”. Not a special friend or girlfriend.

    Except the only people saying that Ellie is 100% gay is you guys. So obviously what Ellie is in the next game can vary. According to Bruce, she could be bi even. Ashley implies its platonic. Neil does not have final word.

    The script is adapted with Ashley in mind and her opinion on the script is strongly encouraged. She is the voice, motion, etc of Ellie. Not to mention that freestyle is also encouraged and there are statements in which the actors admit that a lot of the game was freestyled.

    I’m sorry but if you’re not actually gonna listen to me then I’m wasting my time. You need to actually understand the nature of writing.

    #79 5 months ago
  80. Goofiestchief

    @Sylrissa No not really. The only thing that you contributed to this argument was a nitpick of my comment with which you twisted to make something that agreed with your interpretation( something similar to the actual argument). A point such as that doesn’t deserve a respectful response.

    Your emotion and sensitivity to the matter says more about your bias than anything else.,

    #80 5 months ago
  81. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd That is 100% not true. The entire point of art is interpretation. Once art is released to the public, it is no longer the artists responsibility. Most general interpretations of art that we know of are ones the artist did not intend.

    Can it imply something to make you move that way? Yeah. Except the TLOU implies multiple interpretations of any sexual orientation. Not just being gay. If anything, giving a character a sexual orientation at that age undermines the character as it removes depth. There is no secret pathway to learn what the writer intended in TLOU.

    And I still fail to see how Neil’s opinion is all seeing. He is one of many writers. Bruce is a writer too. Neil is also the one known to make far fetched speculations according to the documentary.

    Bruce Straley has more control over the project, but we look to Neil for guidance? Neil says gay and we applaud. Neil, Bruce and Ashley say interpretation and we turn our backs.

    #81 5 months ago
  82. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief If you think an artists personal ideas somehow speaks higher than his artwork then you are disrespecting Neil.

    For you to say his view should mean more than what the art says isn’t helping him. It’s disrespecting him. He even said in a quote that the material should speak for itself and what he says means nothing.

    #82 5 months ago
  83. Goofiestchief

    @Sylrissa I’m happy you had your own sexuality figured out by the time you were 12 but you do not get to go on and say that just because you never felt like you wanted to kiss a same sex that experimentation/process of discovering one’s own sexual orientation doesn’t exist.

    #83 5 months ago
  84. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami You seem to mistake love and sexual attraction as the same thing which is where your point is flawed.

    #84 5 months ago
  85. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    -Neil

    You assume a writers script is foolproof like a book. It’s not. A script is a tool in the same way that paper and pen are tools.

    It is clear based off this quote that Neil’s own personnel beliefs and the game itself do not intertwine. Him saying the material can disagree with him is basically him saying, that the material even disagrees with him.

    #85 5 months ago
  86. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    -Neil

    ^This is literally Neil himself telling you that everything you said about how the writer knows best or no one knows more than the writer is a big load of hogwash.,

    You assume a writers script is foolproof like a book. It’s not. A script is a tool in the same way that paper and pen are tools.

    It is clear based off this quote that Neil’s own personnel beliefs and the game itself do not intertwine. Him saying the material can disagree with him is basically him saying, that the material even disagrees with him.

    If you won’t even believe Bruce or Ashley, then you have to actually believe what the art says.

    #86 5 months ago
  87. Gekidami

    “If Neil said he intended Ellie to be an elephant, would you defend him then? “
    If Ellie looked like an elephant and sounded like one, yes. Of course your argument is that if she was indeed an elephant but people on the internet said she was a human, their interpretation would mean she is now a human.

    “Neil also intended for Ellie to hate Joel which is certainly something a lot of people would call him out on as full of crap.”
    Why? Neil is talking about how Ellie feels after the game is finished. You cant say he’s wrong because you cant see what happens next. And this is where writers setting the characters standards come in, because this is what Neil actually said:

    “Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”
    All of what he’s describing would happen after the credits roll. So if ND make a sequel and Neil writes it, who do you think will have the most influence over how Ellie acts next? The guys who actually write the story, or the internet masses? To end this point, i’ve seen loads of people agree with Neil and roll with the idea that Ellie knows Joel is lying. I dont see where you’re getting this “full of crap”thing.

    “First of all, Neil is a cowriter. One of many. Not THE writer. Bruce Straley has a similar job. Why does his word of “it’s up to interpretation and she could be bi, gay, or whatever mean nothing?”
    Because Bruce doesnt say she isnt gay, he says its possible. The guy who actually wrote the scene says he intended the message to clearly be “She is gay”. Again, unless you have someone from ND saying she isnt gay, you have nothing. That isnt what Bruce is saying, up to interpretation means nothing when one of the writers is setting people straight on the matter.

    “Second of all, all he ever says is that he originally intended for her to be gay. Doesn’t mean others had the same intentions and it actually came out that way in the finished product.”
    Again, citation needed, on the other hand we have a quote stating she is gay. Till then you got nothing.

    “Your Joel argument has no merit because it’s well known in multiple conversations between Tess and Joel that they were clearly attracted to and that they are adults.”
    Such as? What exactly were these conversations? Also what does being adults have to do with anything? Why do you keep bring up age? At what age to you think people start to feel love and attraction to others? When they’re old enough to drink? Drive? Pay taxes?

    “There is zero hint that Joel is gay.”
    Which is exactly what i said.

    “There are however multiple hints that Ellie is straight.”
    Nope. In the main game the subject simply never comes up.

    “Straight hints.
    Male porn stealing
    Dialogue showing of Interest in magazine”

    You are kidding?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimK5YPT9Bk

    “Relationship with Sam”
    “Relationship? Seriously? With these “hints” your obviously just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Ridiculous.

    “Calling Riley a ” best friend”. Not a special friend or girlfriend.”
    They never got far enough to be anything else before Riley died. “special friend”? Who would even say that? What planet do you live on?

    “I’m sorry but if you’re not actually gonna listen to me then I’m wasting my time. You need to actually understand the nature of writing.”
    You have nothing of interest to say, try giving a point that cant easily be debunked. I’m sorry but those “hints” you posted clearly show you just really really dont want Ellie to be gay no matter what.

    #87 5 months ago
  88. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    -Neil

    ^This is literally Neil saying that everything said about how the writer knows best or no one knows more than the writer is a big load of hogwash.

    #88 5 months ago
  89. Gekidami

    And stop fucking spamming the comments. Make one post where you address multiple issues.

    #89 5 months ago
  90. polygem

    the thing is, it doesn´t even matter if she is gay or not. we have to get rid of constantly categorizing everything and everyone all the time. she kissed a girl to show her that she loves her, cares for her, somehow, maybe that kiss made her feel something sexually too, it probably has to some degree since kissing someone else usually triggers a sexual emotion as well -but who cares. we´re all just human beings. the differences between men and women are not as big as the society, the church or anyone else tries to teach us. we love who we love. as long as we do not force our love onto another person and it´s all fully consensual there is not the slightest problem with that. of course not. it´s that fucking simple. the rest is social, pseudo-religious angst – we have to get rid of that.

    #90 5 months ago
  91. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami

    Your basis of her being gay is no different from the reasons I give for why she could be straight.

    Seeing as devs always look for the opinions of fans, I would imagine the internet masses to have some influence. They’re doing this for the entertainment of the fans in the first place anyway. If devs didn’t do that, we’d have something similar to the mass effect 3 endings in which people hide behind “artistic integrity”.

    Saying Ellie knows Joel is lying and saying she hates him are two different things.

    Except Neil also said that his own word means nothing.

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    This is another example of you using hyperbole. Nothing is set straight.

    Bruce and Ashley also said that its possible she could not be gay so there.

    Id also like to point out that the Neil quote where he said she was gay originated from a site called gay gamer.net. Oh yeah no bias there.

    I’ve already given you citations. You just refuse to look at the writing on the wall.

    Any moron who saw the body language between Tess and Joel or watched the cutscene before she dies can see it shows they had something. Plus the fact that Bill even makes fun of Joel for his relationship with Tess.

    Nope. In the main game the subject simply never comes up.
    You are kidding?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimK5YPT9Bk
    “Relationship with Sam”
    “Relationship? Seriously? With these “hints” your obviously just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Ridiculous.
    “Calling Riley a ” best friend”. Not a special friend or girlfriend.”
    They never got far enough to be anything else before Riley died. “special friend”? Who would even say that? What planet do you live on?”

    ^ And it’s ignorant comments like this that show that you can’t listen to reason and already have pre conceived notions.

    I don’t know whether you’re a troll or just uptight but putting in the effort to steal a male porno kind of gives off more than just a joke. But of course you want her to be gay so it makes sense.

    “Hey hold your horses I want to see what all the fuss is about.”

    “Light on the reading but it’s got something interesting photos”

    ^Ellies quotes in reaction to the mag. She even says the word “interesting”. Lol.

    “Don’t want her to be gay no matter what”

    Another example of your emotions and sensitivity getting in your way of reason. All I’ve told you is it’s up to interpretation. I could care less if she’s gay/bi/straight. You on the other hand seem to jump at anybody assuming she’s anything but gay.

    Not only do you evade most of what I’ve said, but your experiences of the game imply you either didn’t play much of it or played it a long time ago cause you can’t seem to recollect much of anything from the game itself.

    #91 5 months ago
  92. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami Coming from the guy whose responses are one sentence usually involving an insult or more that’s quite ironic.

    And a little angry are we?

    Its great you found you got your own sexuality figured out by the time you were 12 but you do not get to go on and say that just because you never felt like you wanted to kiss another dude that experimentation/process of discovering one’s own sexual orientation doesn’t exist.

    #92 5 months ago
  93. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief On Reddit’s AMA, Bruce confirmed that if Riley were a guy, nothing would have changed…Riley just so happened to be a girl in the American Dreams comic

    ^This is Bruce saying that it was a friendship based out love. Not a friendship based out of sexual attraction.

    #93 5 months ago
  94. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief This is literally him telling you that Ellie would have kissed anyone in that situation regardless of gender.

    #94 5 months ago
  95. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief Neil himself even talks in interviews about how the team was in conflict over Ellie’s sexual orientation so he obviously has those who disagree with him on the team.

    #95 5 months ago
  96. polygem

    @Goofiestchief
    don´t try arguing with geki. he´s not here for a discussion.

    #96 5 months ago
  97. Gekidami

    “And a little angry are we?”
    lol Coming from the guy whose left over 45 comments on the subject. Its hilarious you constantly accuse others of being emotional and mad, yet you yourself cant stop posting heartfelt, whinny posts.

    And now of course you’re going into tinfoil hat territory:
    “Id also like to point out that the Neil quote where he said she was gay originated from a site called gay gamer.net. Oh yeah no bias there.”
    lol Soon we’ll be hearing about ‘The Gay Agenda’.

    You really are ridiculous, Goofiestchief. You need to calm down and stop projecting your emotions onto others. All of your points have been debunked, you’re just resorting to insults and repeating the same crap over and over because you have nothing else. You’re not worth any ones time any more.

    #97 5 months ago
  98. polygem

    @Gekidami
    you are so full of yourself, please try not to explode.

    #98 5 months ago
  99. Gekidami

    @polygem
    lol says mister I’M LEAVING THE SITE FOREVER!
    *returns a month later*.

    You really need to lose this obsession you have with me, its not healthy.

    #99 5 months ago
  100. polygem

    @Gekidami
    you have an obsession with me dear geki. this is just karma my friend. reflect your own actions more and stop the whining.

    #100 5 months ago
  101. Gekidami

    @polygem
    Yet you only ever respond to me, i ignore your worthless attention whoring otherwise. I dont even know what the rest of your post means, though its most likely a load of bollocks, as always.

    #101 5 months ago
  102. polygem

    @Gekidami
    look geki, 2 out of 3 threads you are in, trying to “discuss” things ends up exactly like this. i think it shows just fine who it is we need to thank for that. you can´t discuss, you are to full of yourself, you are weak too, not only in your argumentation. whenever you are stuck the namecalling begins. if you are older than 18 i would recommend that you should reflect about that a little more. sharing your depressing emotional failures on the internet is not an adequate therapy.

    #102 5 months ago
  103. polygem

    did the victim just slay the troll?

    #103 5 months ago
  104. Gekidami

    @polygem
    Lets actually look at who started name calling, shall we?

    First we have the ever classy Erthazus, his response to my second post here was:
    “@Gekidami Are you an idiot? “
    So thats that, i didnt start, but yeah, you can sure as hell bet i’ll response.

    As for Goofiestchief, well quite honestly there isnt really any name calling, just point criticising.
    The most poersonal things didnt come from me but of course he started, overlooking that writing class part, he has brought up this idea that several people here are being emotional and “mad”.

    Actually Goofiestchief;
    “Coming from the guy whose responses are one sentence usually involving an insult or more that’s quite ironic.”
    i’d love to see you quote what actual insults i’ve directed at you. I also fail to see how the length of my posts has anything to do with anything.

    But anyway, Polygem, keep on truckin’ in your crusade against me. Though for the time being i wont be responding to you any more, i’ve given you enough attention for now.

    #104 5 months ago
  105. Legendaryboss

    Seriously, What the fuck happened here? I did not expect this. The majority of comments is from one user.

    #105 5 months ago
  106. Gekidami

    @polygem
    Ha ha, sorry, i know i said i wouldnt be giving you any more attention, but this is just too good:

    “Victim” LOL! I mean Jesus H Christ man. Look at this self proclaimed “victim” of horrible internet injustice. You really are pathetic, you seriously need help.

    But any way, thats were the attention you get for today ends. I feel kind of what i actually fuelled your attention whoring today.

    #106 5 months ago
  107. Gekidami

    @Gekidami
    “Thats kind of bad” and “Where”, damn lack of edit, Pat.

    #107 5 months ago
  108. Legendaryboss

    @polygem I’m not one that is guilty it is everyone else no matter how much rational evidence is flung in my direction, everyones argumentation is weak because it isn’t a love letter for *insert company name here. Seriously? The mirror look into it.

    #108 5 months ago
  109. polygem

    @Gekidami
    i am not on a crusade against you. not at all but i remeber you calling me attention whore (several times, like more than 10 times actually), victim, idiot and so much more. i am not a victim geki. i only react to the crap you throw at me. i really do not think that you are in a position to complain about that.

    “All of your points have been debunked, you’re just resorting to insults and repeating the same crap over and over because you have nothing else. You’re not worth any ones time any more.”

    stuff like this is a passive agressive insult too btw. especially the last sentence. the moment you will realise that you will become a better poster.

    #109 5 months ago
  110. polygem

    @geki. i refered to you calling me and dawulf perfect internet vicitims just 2 days ago. see?
    and now look how you take that and run with it…again.
    you are so weak geki it hurts. why so insecure?

    #110 5 months ago
  111. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    i have never said such a thing in my whole life

    #111 5 months ago
  112. Legendaryboss

    @polygem Sure if you say so.

    #112 5 months ago
  113. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    thanks, really wanted to get that out of the way.

    #113 5 months ago
  114. polygem

    btw. i think we´re spamming this article now. we already had this going on and on several times. i don´t think that we will get to a point that we can all agree on today, shaking hands, moving on. we probably never will. maybe someone should create a “fight club” thread on the forums where everyone can piss all over each other.

    #114 5 months ago
  115. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami If they made a site called straight gamer.net, you’d be up in arms. By polygems comments, I’m clearly not alone in the group of people who think you’re an emotional wreck.

    And I still don’t see an issue with me typing multiple comments. So my brains works faster than yours and therefore I’m “weird”?

    #115 5 months ago
  116. Goofiestchief

    @Gekidami “All your points have been debunked”

    Laughing cause you think my point is dumb is not debunking child. Especially since what you consider a “point” is more like you taking a small vague piece of my words and taking them out of context.

    #116 5 months ago
  117. Goofiestchief

    @polygem If that’s the case, then he’s been “stuck” aloooooooot.

    #117 5 months ago
  118. polygem

    @Goofiestchief
    :) he gets to that point quite fast indeed but leaving the thread now obvioulsy isn´t shying away from discussing the topic because he lacks arguments (or already used all his swearword vocabulary – or both) – no it´s because he´s not willing to give me any more attention because i am only begging for that of course. such a huge ego and still not even slightly capable of analyzing the simplest coherencies and contradicitons in his own behaviour. it´s ´paint your own world geki style´. today, tomorrow, always.

    #118 5 months ago
  119. Goofiestchief

    @polygem I was gonna say, his logic always did seem like it was made up of paper and he was the only person who didn’t know(ie taking Neil’s words out of context and trying to belittle any other quote except the gay one cause he felt it agreed with him).

    #119 5 months ago
  120. polygem

    @Goofiestchief
    like i said, i don´t think he wants to discuss most of the time, he´s much more interested in picking fights and unfortunately, that´s what a lot of posters are looking for on this site – but i think we should stop talking about him now since he´s obviously not around anymore.

    #120 5 months ago
  121. Joe Musashi

    So much bullshit mentality on display here. Laughable, pitiable, pathetic.

    Predictable.

    JM

    #121 5 months ago
  122. Djoenz

    Everything GoofiestChief just typed is delusional as hell. That is not debating Polygem.

    Get off Gekidami’s case lol.

    Shit I wanted to log in yesterday, but I got the infamous log in pop up box again… seriously vg247????

    #122 5 months ago
  123. Michael Ireland

    @polygem, Geki is a perfectly decent member of the community. Give it a rest.

    @Goodiestchief, You don’t interpret her as gay. We get it. That’s fine.

    I do. Guess what? That’s also fine.

    @Joe Musashi, Pretty much as predicable as your own posts.

    #123 5 months ago
  124. Goofiestchief

    @Djoenz You really need to learn to think before you speak. You may as well have been brainwashed by a cult.

    #124 5 months ago
  125. Djoenz

    @Goofiestchief
    Ah please get over yourself.

    I swear while playing the whole DLC I could feel the tension between Riley and Ellie.
    At first I was like they are just friends, but deep down I could feel this tension and I was like hmmm perhaps there is more.

    After the waterfight sequence I even thought wow is she going to kiss her? and then what do you know it happened. I was shocked at the time, but also not that surprised. It was something I couldnt explain. It was freaking beautiful. It was more than just a kiss.

    My buddy played it at my house as well and even he said they are gonna kiss arent they. I was like pff no and then yup.

    If you couldnt feel the tension after triggering most of the scenes and convo’s then sorry my friend you haven’t played it correctly.

    It is what it is. I mean BETA has even posted prove and still you are here trying to disprove everything for your own satisfaction. Nothing wrong with that, but you are trying a little too haed lmao!!

    #125 5 months ago
  126. Goofiestchief

    @Michael Ireland

    If Geki is a decent member then no wonder the community seems to be falling apart.

    No you don’t.

    “Even if Ellie was gay (she isn’t, people are just reading into things too much), that was a detail presented in DLC, not the main game. Nor was it explicitly stated.”

    Then someone says that one of the writers said he may at one point looked at her as such and you pull a 180? Come on man.

    #126 5 months ago
  127. Djoenz

    @Goofiestchief
    It doesn’t need to be explicitly said. That would be just bad writing otherwise.
    The DLC is part of Ellie’s history it’s an integral part of her history and an explanation of how it defined her.

    Riley taught Ellie to fight for every moment even if it’s just for 2 seconds. She could have killed herself too when Riley changed, but no Ellie knew that would not honor Riley.

    That’s why she fights for the people she cares about,for Joel.
    That’s why she has a little obsession with whistling.
    That’s why she likes those pun books.

    She shared those moments with Riley and in the main game with Joel.
    The DLC explains a lot of Ellie’s background and personality.

    The DLC was a smartmove of ND. Its the only story dlc and it’s integral imo.

    #127 5 months ago
  128. Joe Musashi

    @123 Lay off criticising people’s opinions. I see you pull out your ever-ready:

    “So having an opinion is now?”

    Whenever you want to pretend your own sniping is somehow untouchable. Your double-standards are tiresome. Especially in these types of discussions.

    JM

    #128 5 months ago
  129. Goofiestchief

    @Djoenz

    You really need to get out more.

    This “tension” and chemistry is something I see straight girls do all the time. I played the dlc. Nothing in there was any different. If we’re gonna go off a few hints and signals to prove something, I could give a few possible hints in the main game that she’s straight.

    I’m pretty confident I can explain this for you guys. There is no way to know if Ellie is a lesbian unless we see her as an adult where she’s actually old enough to act on her sexual urges and define herself either way. So there will never be a straight answer (pun intended).

    BUT I do want to talk about what prompted people to think this and why it’s completely off base. Simply kissing another girl at her age does not automatically make her a lesbian. The tom boy thing is not a sign either as not every tomboy is a lesbian. In fact most aren’t.

    I hate to play psychologist but I’m going to do it anyway. It is actually very common for young girls to experiment with their girl friends or develop crushes on them. It usually just means they are really good friends. Girls mature and go through puberty much faster than guys do and their hormones start to kick in. Since they aren’t developed enough or old enough to start doing anything sexual with boys, they experiment with their best friends to find out what kissing or touching feels like. Ever hear about little girls playing “House”?? What do you think this is? One pretends to be the husband and the other is the wife. It usually is just devolves into a way for girls to experiment with each other.

    They are confused about how their body works and might “inspect” a friend or ask them about things just to make sure they are the same way. They are confused about these sexual feelings and not sure whether it’s a friendship thing or a loving emotion or what relationships even mean, and so they might express it in the wrong situations. It DOES NOT mean they are a lesbian. If it did then 90% of girls would be lesbians.

    Now combine that with the fact that Ellie grew up after the apocalypse where the concept of society and relationships is very scarce, and you’ll have a severely confused kid. Or perhaps a kid who has developed extremely good values that are proprietary to her environment where “gay” or insults like “homo” don’t exist, just as sexual orientations don’t exist. The stigma or declaration isn’t there and so it simply ceases to be.

    The answer is simple. There is no answer.

    I’m sorry but if you were the only person I had, in a horrible world, I’d act in a way similar to Ellie too no matter your gender.

    BETA “proof” is one of the writers saying his own personnel interpretation.

    You want proof? Here’s a quote from that same writer.

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    ^ This is proof to what I’m saying. That the writers interpretations are capable of differing from the actual material.

    “an emotional scene from The Last of Us: Left Behind, main character Ellie kisses her female friend Riley. Does this mean she is gay or bisexual? “Who cares?” game director Bruce Straley says”

    On Reddit’s AMA, Bruce confirmed that if Riley were a guy, nothing would have changed…Riley just so happened to be a girl in the American Dream comics.

    Ashley Johnson( whose word in this world of individual interpretation is probably the closest thing to an objective truth) said on IGN that Ellie’s attraction to Riley came more from desperation and Riley being the only one she had as opposed to a literal sexual attraction to her.

    http://m.ign.com/videos/2014/02/24/reinventing-the-last-of-us-ellie-reinventing-thief-up-at-noon

    “Is Ellie gay? Maybe. Maybe she’s bisexual, maybe she’s straight but loves Riley and just went with the moment. When you’re a teenager you don’t know these things about yourself. ”

    From an ign article that Neil himself approved of on Twitter.

    #129 5 months ago
  130. Goofiestchief

    @Djoenz

    You might need to get out more.

    This “tension” and chemistry is something I see straight girls do all the time. I played the dlc. Nothing in there was any different. If we’re gonna go off a few hints and signals to prove something, I could give a few possible hints in the main game that she’s straight.

    I’m pretty confident I can explain this for you guys. There is no way to know if Ellie is a lesbian unless we see her as an adult where she’s actually old enough to act on her sexual urges and define herself either way. So there will never be a straight answer (pun intended).

    BUT I do want to talk about what prompted people to think this and why it’s completely off base. Simply kissing another girl at her age does not automatically make her a lesbian. The tom boy thing is not a sign either as not every tomboy is a lesbian. In fact most aren’t.

    I hate to play psychologist but I’m going to do it anyway. It is actually very common for young girls to experiment with their girl friends or develop crushes on them. It usually just means they are really good friends. Girls mature and go through puberty much faster than guys do and their hormones start to kick in. Since they aren’t developed enough or old enough to start doing anything sexual with boys, they experiment with their best friends to find out what kissing or touching feels like. Ever hear about little girls playing “House”?? What do you think this is? One pretends to be the husband and the other is the wife. It usually is just devolves into a way for girls to experiment with each other.

    They are confused about how their body works and might “inspect” a friend or ask them about things just to make sure they are the same way. They are confused about these sexual feelings and not sure whether it’s a friendship thing or a loving emotion or what relationships even mean, and so they might express it in the wrong situations. It DOES NOT mean they are a lesbian. If it did then 90% of girls would be lesbians.

    Now combine that with the fact that Ellie grew up after the apocalypse where the concept of society and relationships is very scarce, and you’ll have a severely confused kid. Or perhaps a kid who has developed extremely good values that are proprietary to her environment where “gay” or insults like “homo” don’t exist, just as sexual orientations don’t exist. The stigma or declaration isn’t there and so it simply ceases to be.

    The answer is simple. There is no answer.

    I’m sorry but if you were the only person I had, in a horrible world, I’d act in a way similar to Ellie too no matter your gender.

    BETA “proof” is one of the writers saying his own personnel interpretation.

    You want proof? Here’s a quote from that same writer.

    “We try to write stuff that’s subtle and that can be open for interpretation, even if I disagree with that interpretation. I always say if there’s nothing in the game that disproves it then it doesn’t matter what I say; the material should speak for itself.”

    ^ This is proof to what I’m saying. That the writers interpretations are capable of differing from the actual material.

    “an emotional scene from The Last of Us: Left Behind, main character Ellie kisses her female friend Riley. Does this mean she is gay or bisexual? “Who cares?” game director Bruce Straley says”

    On Reddit’s AMA, Bruce confirmed that if Riley were a guy, nothing would have changed…Riley just so happened to be a girl in the American Dream comics.

    Ashley Johnson( whose word in this world of individual interpretation is probably the closest thing to an objective truth) said on IGN that Ellie’s attraction to Riley came more from desperation and Riley being the only one she had as opposed to a literal sexual attraction to her.

    http://m.ign.com/videos/2014/02/24/reinventing-the-last-of-us-ellie-reinventing-thief-up-at-noon

    “Is Ellie gay? Maybe. Maybe she’s bisexual, maybe she’s straight but loves Riley and just went with the moment. When you’re a teenager you don’t know these things about yourself. ”

    From an ign article that Neil himself approved of on Twitter.

    #130 5 months ago
  131. Joe Musashi

    @128 Wonderful, the site swallowed up my syntax.

    “So having an opinion is [over-exaggeration-for-the-sake-of-victim-play] now?”

    You get the point. Unless you’re going to deliberately pretend you don’t.

    JM

    #131 5 months ago
  132. Djoenz

    @Goofiestchief
    Ah please. I should go out more? HA.
    I am out of this discussion.

    Have a nice day fella!

    #132 5 months ago
  133. ddtd

    @Goofiestchief Wow, are you just scanning the replies and picking the points you want to argue, because I literally wrote, “once the author/artist puts a work out there, he loses some ownership of its meaning to the viewing/reading public. They’re going to consume it, process it, and do with it what they will. ”

    So, since my post was “100% untrue,” then you don’t believe that art is up to interpretation? Because that’s what you’ve been arguing in your 100 posts on this article.

    :p

    #133 5 months ago
  134. Goofiestchief

    @Djoenz Sorry double post.

    You mistake love for sexual attraction.

    Every single thing you just praised ND and left behind for are things that can have nothing to do with sexual attraction. We all have that one best friend and it’s x100 with Ellie what with her having no friends or family in a world like that.

    Being subtle about homosexuality is one thing. But the fact that they also have subtle straight hints in the main game is a complication to that.

    One question. If ND was so intent on making her gay, why is “love” not the only option in the phone booth? Why is something like best friends there?

    #134 5 months ago
  135. Djoenz

    @ddtd
    True man. Im curious to know what you think man. Do you think it was just a kiss or more than just a kiss?

    Labeling is pretty lame tbh. Gay this Lesbian that. If it was explicitly said it would have been bad writing.

    #135 5 months ago
  136. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd And here we go again with people twisting words.

    It’s kind of shocking that you can’t even remember your own comment.

    You stated that the writer is meant to plant something that’s supposed to slowly ease people towards his viewpoint.

    You even said that if the writer said she’s gay, she’s gay.

    Explain to me how blatantly saying “no she’s gay” somehow encourages interpretation?

    This made up idea that if the writer thinks something, it’s true. Even when that same writer actually disagrees with that idea.

    So no. You did not say that. If you did then you somehow turned bipolar in the span of one comment.

    You went from saying the writer loses responsibility for what’s in the story, to saying “no what the writer says goes”. So don’t lie.

    #136 5 months ago
  137. Djoenz

    @Goofiestchief
    For one a phone booth like that is open to all types of relationships not only couples. Best friends use them as well.

    There is a difference in loving someone and being in love. I got the feeling Ellie was in love rather than just loving Riley for being her best friend.

    She could just hugged her, but she kissed her it was so romantic. :blushface:
    Im sure there were enough guys at her military school to fall in love with.

    #137 5 months ago
  138. polygem

    @Michael, DJ:
    no guys, just no. geki is chasing me for a while now. i don´t swallow his shit. you cannot expect that from me. i created a forum post. i am willing to close some old cases, in fact i offered that several times. i cannot do that alone. if i get attacked i bite back. it´s simple as that. i am not jesus christ.

    #138 5 months ago
  139. Goofiestchief

    @Djoenz Again you mistake love for sexual attraction. This is a post apocalyptic game. Not a picture booth simulator.

    Why have choices? ND has never embraced choice in storytelling before so why now ? Why not just have a cutscene where the girls pick it themselves and just skip that process? Why have options?

    And I saw it as best friends based on my experience with straight girls whose activities towards each other were no different than what happened in left behind.
    You act as if they made out. It was a peck on the lips. Something that I’ve also seen straight people do.

    Was it love story? Yeah. A romance story? Probably. But was it also a friendship growing up story? Yeah. Ellie was in an emotional breakdown. I think if Riley was a boy,girl, or a wookie, she’d still kiss her. Had more to do with that than a literal attraction to her being a girl.

    I’m sorry but if you were the only person I had, in a horrible world, I’d act in a way similar to Ellie too no matter your gender.

    I hate to play psychologist but I’m going to do it anyway. It is actually very common for young girls to experiment with their girl friends or develop crushes on them. It usually just means they are really good friends. Girls mature and go through puberty much faster than guys do and their hormones start to kick in. Since they aren’t developed enough or old enough to start doing anything sexual with boys, they experiment with their best friends to find out what kissing or touching feels like. Ever hear about little girls playing “House”?? What do you think this is? One pretends to be the husband and the other is the wife. It usually is just devolves into a way for girls to experiment with each other.
    They are confused about how their body works and might “inspect” a friend or ask them about things just to make sure they are the same way. They are confused about these sexual feelings and not sure whether it’s a friendship thing or a loving emotion or what relationships even mean, and so they might express it in the wrong situations. It DOES NOT mean they are a lesbian. If it did then 90% of girls would be lesbians.

    So just cause boys are available, that means she should get one? A straight girl doesn’t need to get a man just cause he’s there.

    #139 5 months ago
  140. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief Hell in some countries, what Ellie and Riley did would be considered a common gesture.

    #140 5 months ago
  141. Goofiestchief

    @Goofiestchief Not to mention the hints in the main game that say otherwise.

    #141 5 months ago
  142. Joe Musashi

    “i cannot do that alone.”

    Lies. You are the only one accountable for your own behaviour. You don’t need help from anyone. If you want to behave in a certain way, you will behave in a certain way. If you don’t want that then you won’t.

    But play-acting so that you can imply that others are accountable for the way you choose to conduct yourself, and to ransom others or refuse to adhere to simple good conduct – these are empty, hollow, ‘favours’.

    This is yet more attention seeking from someone with a lengthy track record of antagonising, zero self control and habitually breaking pledges.

    If you intend to change, you’ll change. You won’t make a big song and dance about it. You won’t try to rope others into your games so that you can finger-point and project responsibility onto them.

    The very fact you’ve ‘announced’ your intent (drawing attention to yourself) and are eager to reference it unnecessarily (more attention seeking) and put terms and conditions against it shows just how insincere the sentiment is.

    All whilst continually bad mouthing and concocting conspiracy theories of another member of the community who has been vouched for by others in this very discussion.

    You can’t even be civil a few hours after your ‘pledge’ (and you’ll insist that it’s someone else’s fault that you behave in such a way – denying accountability for your own actions as alway) shows just how worthless it is.

    Change or don’t. Actions speak louder than words.

    JM

    #142 5 months ago
  143. ddtd

    @Goofiestchief “And here we go again with people twisting words.

    It’s kind of shocking that you can’t even remember your own comment.”

    I remember exactly what I wrote.

    “You stated that the writer is meant to plant something that’s supposed to slowly ease people towards his viewpoint.”

    I wrote that writer MAY have intended that as the reason he left the scene ambiguous.

    “You even said that if the writer said she’s gay, she’s gay.”

    Read it again; I wrote that the writer clearly knows who they’re writing. If a writer has no understanding of who their writing–their history, their emotions, their desires, etc…–then how can they know how that character would react or feel? A writer who doesn’t know their characters is a bad writer, and their characters come across flat.

    “Explain to me how blatantly saying “no she’s gay” somehow encourages interpretation?”

    “This made up idea that if the writer thinks something, it’s true. Even when that same writer actually disagrees with that idea.”

    “So no. You did not say that. If you did then you somehow turned bipolar in the span of one comment.”

    I said the writer clearly stated he wrote a gay character. Therefore she’s gay. Then I wrote that it doesn’t matter what the writer intended because once they put their work out there, it’s up to the reader/viewer to interpret it as they will. I don’t understand how this is a hard concept to understand. You seem like an intelligent person. Figure it out.

    “You went from saying the writer loses responsibility for what’s in the story, to saying “no what the writer says goes”. So don’t lie.”"

    Nope, I went from saying that the writer clearly wrote Ellie from the understanding that she’s gay, to saying–at the end of my post–that it doesn’t matter what the author thinks. He can’t be in the room with us explaining his intentions while we play his game. That’s clearly the order that I had organized my thoughts in the post, so I don’t understand why you flipped it around, unless it was create evidence for you argument.

    #143 5 months ago
  144. ddtd

    @Goofiestchief For someone who’s hell bent on defending this position that the writer’s intention doesn’t matter, and that art is up for interpretation (which I agree with, despite your protests), you seem very determined to dismiss any interpretation of the scene other than your own.

    #144 5 months ago
  145. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd

    Sorry if that’s what you meant. Your original comment to me came off as saying that “oh you can believe whatever you want, but it’s still done this way”. Like me saying “oh you can believe blue is the best color, but orange is the real best color “.

    I disagree that the writer in this particular situation is the one who needs to know the emotions, desires etc. Maybe if it’s a book, but in a game, the translation from script to game can be dramatic. Scripts are not books.

    Another note. I have all the respect in the world for Neil, but he is not the only writer. I looked to him on the big picture of TLOU, but when it comes to small things like this, I look to other people. In this particular situation, on the topic of Ellie, in this world of individual interpretations, I personally would look at Ashley Johnson’s opinion as the closest thing to an “objective truth”.

    #145 5 months ago
  146. Djoenz

    Polygem’s sincerest apology. Sign the petition and lets all cuddle: http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic/cozy-corner/
    Vote for world peace. Much Luv.

    Dj.

    #146 5 months ago
  147. polygem

    @Joe Musashi
    first of all, it´s not a lie.
    saying that is just a lie joe musashi and a very nasty and telling start for a post that pretends to be a neutral and objective analysis of the situation. i can´t do it alone means that i am not willing to swallow it if someone chases me and calls me names.
    i am willing to apologise but i expect others to do the same. that simple. imo that´s not too much to ask for.
    sure, you are right. i could go on and ignore insults and be polite anyway. that´s true. i could do that – but i wont. that´s not making me a liar, hypocrite, attention seeker or whatever you want to call it.
    calling it that would just be – another -lie
    i do not insist that it´s someone elses fault that i act the way i do. fuck that Joe, i have never even slightly said that. i am responsible for every word i type and i said that multiple times no matter how hard you try to twist that.
    by the way Joe musashi – it would be a great start if you would stop hiding behind your internet persona and stand up for who you are before you try to teach others and call them liars. why are you so afraid of that? i really can´t understand that. seriously. introduce yourself. don´t be so shy. make a start. then, maybe, you can start playing the high court.

    #147 5 months ago
  148. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd I only dismiss any claim that she is obviously anything.

    If you think it’s this interpretation based on your experience with the game that’s fine. If you think your interpretation is fact or “confirmed”, then we have a problem.

    If I had it my way, I would say she doesn’t have a sexual orientation. Just friendship. I would look at her sexual oriention the same way I do a baby. Nonexistent and irrelevant. With Ellie being in an experimenting stage.

    If I had to give her an orientation, Id say straight but that’s me and that comes from the main game.

    #148 5 months ago
  149. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd I only dismiss any claim that she is obviously gay.

    If you think it’s this interpretation based on your experience with the game that’s fine. If you think your interpretation is fact or “confirmed”, then we have a problem.

    If I had it my way, I would say she doesn’t have a sexual orientation. Just friendship. I would look at her sexual oriention the same way I do a baby. Nonexistent and irrelevant. With Ellie being in an experimenting stage.

    If I had to give her an orientation, Id say straight but that’s me and that comes from the main game.

    #149 5 months ago
  150. ddtd

    @Goofiestchief “I disagree that the writer in this particular situation is the one who needs to know the emotions, desires etc. Maybe if it’s a book, but in a game, the translation from script to game can be dramatic. Scripts are not books. ”

    That’s sort of truetrue, but just because the author understood their characters that the director and the actors are able to make their interpretations.

    I think the best example of this is Hamlet. Shakespeare clearly knew whether or not Hamlet was insane or not, and whether Gertrude knew Claudius killed her husband or not, but these things have been interpreted many different ways by the directors and actors when its performed, and then by the audience when they view it. And in my opinion, all these different ways the story is portrayed are equally fascinating.

    It’s that layer of complexity that the writer puts into the characters that allows room for interpretation. That feeling of, “Wait, did he mean this, or did he mean that.” It’s portraying real emotion that adds that depth that allows for interpretation, and in order to write real emotion into a character, the writer needs to know where that emotion comes from.

    #150 5 months ago
  151. ddtd

    @Goofiestchief “I only dismiss any claim that she is obviously gay.”

    Okay, I understand. And I apologize if the tone of that post was snarky.

    #151 5 months ago
  152. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd Fair enough

    #152 5 months ago
  153. Joe Musashi

    “i can´t do it alone means that i am not willing to swallow it if someone chases me and calls me names.”

    Then you are lying when you say “I can’t do it alone”.

    What you are saying is “I won’t be civil unless I get gurantees that others will treat me in the way I want to be treated even though they don’t know how I’m going to behave”.

    That’s a ransom.

    And it’s coming from someone who has pledged to “forget it all” and make a “new start” many times before.

    If you want to change your behaviour then the only one that is going to do that is you. That would be sincere and it would be sincerest of all if you acted first and talked last.

    You are offering the exact opposite.

    And your lengthy reputation for lies, spin, manipulation, denial, deflection and complete lack of consideration for others makes your ransom note an insult.

    “i am willing to apologise but i expect others to do the same”

    Then you are not even remotely sincere.

    JM

    #153 5 months ago
  154. Legendaryboss

    @polygem And this ladies and gentlemen is part of the many reasons why i (and presumably others) still can’t take you seriously.

    “i can´t do it alone means that i am not willing to swallow it if someone chases me and calls me names.” In this thread? First interaction with Geki: You: “you are so full of yourself, please try not to explode.” then he responds and then you. You responded to someone who wasn’t even speaking with you. You chased him first then he chased you, stage 1 deflection, stage 2 ignorance.

    You can’t change alone? Non-sense, this isn’t a group club, you don’t need others to change just like you don’t need others to eat with you in order to eat yourself.

    “i could go on and ignore insults and be polite anyway. that´s true. i could do that – but i wont.” You could, wasn’t this supposed to be a group change? You can’t imply that you need others to change and then note it is ability you can do solo but refuse to do so. So to repeat this is another example in a long list is why i can no longer take you seriously.

    Comment: And 150+ comments for another sexuality subject which in hindsight should have been predicted by me like other article, but i just didn’t see it getting far. Granted most of it is by one person, but still.

    #154 5 months ago
  155. Legendaryboss

    @Legendaryboss Beaten more or less, but still.

    #155 5 months ago
  156. polygem

    joe, i think you are indeed lying about my reputation now and you clearly have a very one dimensional view on it. i know for sure because i interact with other posters here on several platforms for a few years now. you are again, only picking a tiny piece of the puzzle and run for it. i don´t think that this is an adequate reaction to the situation and it´s certainly not a fair, unbiased and helpful view.
    again, sorry that i have to point that out but i think we both know who the fuck you are and i really think you should stand by that before you go on judging about other posters´reputation. that fact alone makes it hard for me to take your critique serious tbh – i wish i could, i honestly would – and here comes the ´i can´t do it alone´ part into play again. that´s how i see it – it might be wrong, who wants to judge that, but it certainly doesn´t make me a liar.
    i am willing to apologise but i have some requirements for that. yes, sure! that´s not making me insincere either.

    #156 5 months ago
  157. polygem

    @polygem
    @LB, no it´s all about posting history, not just this thread. you should know it. look at your post here.
    i am no angel. i know that. i think we ALL need to look at our posting behaviour here. that´s all i am saying. imo thats only fair…

    #157 5 months ago
  158. polygem

    @polygem
    sorry guys, i am having trouble with the page atm, site crashes, don´t know what it is. apologies for typos and such. it´s a chore right now :)

    #158 5 months ago
  159. Djoenz

    I am having issues with the site as well. BTW GoofiestChief I have replied to your ridiculous post in the forum. There you have it.

    #159 5 months ago
  160. Legendaryboss

    @polygem No we don’t. If anything we need a test, like you go away for a month and see if these types of interactions take place.

    Wait a second… That did happen, you did “leave forever” and these type of interactions almost never happened. Your the catalyst Poly.

    I’m fully aware of my posting behaviour, but the key difference is even if i was or wasn’t present these interactions would still happen, if Dragon was/wasn’t present ditto, if Monkey was/wasn’t (he has left) present, ditto, if JM was/wasn’t present, ditto but when your not present these interactions almost never happen, If Francis was/wasn’t present, ditto (yeah this is strange but that is how it is). The six people that sparked heated debates in Nintendo threads (according to some) however when you “left forever” these debates never happened or at least were somewhat calmer than usual. Now i can go back to a article when i made this exact same point and link threads but i really don’t have to.

    Your experiment won’t work unless you show commitment to it, not talk/false promise and maybe others will follow along.

    #160 5 months ago
  161. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    it did not go away. not at all. it only was shifting. i was reading. i know. between you, dragon, joe and me, OF COURSE it did go away though…that´s my whole point. it´s not making me the catalyst though.

    #161 5 months ago
  162. Joe Musashi

    I doesn’t matter what you think.

    Everybody, and I do mean, everybody can see how you act. In this thread alone you, once again, fling the insults and claim to be the victim, you ceaselessly judge others but protest when you get the merest taste of your own medicine.

    You’re either too ignorant and insular to be aware of how your actions show you up to anybody that witnesses them..

    or you know full well and continue a charade of ignorance posturing as innocence whilst going out of your way to disrupt and antagonise.

    Either way, you’re full of it.

    JM

    #162 5 months ago
  163. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    just take a look at your post 108. how many times will you point out that i am writing love letters for nintendo? even here, in this thread. i´ve heard that one a million times lb. you are a part of the problem and you are not fully aware of your posting behaviour if you cannot even admit that.

    #163 5 months ago
  164. Djoenz

    @polygem
    Well Polygem IMO:
    Legendaryboss always was pretty neutral IMO.
    Dragon is just passionate and YOU only fuel him when you reply to his nintendo digs like you take them personal. That says more about you than about him.
    Joe Musashi is a very intelligent person that likes to observe people a lot and analyse them. That does not make him arrogant. IMO he is spot on on most of his observations and analysis.

    Don’t always point fingers. Some self reflecting will do wonders. At one point you must acknowledge the fact that most of the things you get annoyed by are those you instigate yourself.

    Do with this information whatever you like. :P now cozy corner!

    #164 5 months ago
  165. polygem

    joe. i didn´t claim to be a victim – another lie?
    i refered to geki calling me and dawulf a perfect victim of the internet just 2 days ago. i posted that. you have chosen to ignore it.
    i was trying to reach you my hand. i think i have tried to be polite and i tried to bring that across. if you can´t accept that, or do not want to, i can´t help it.
    i am aware that everyone can see it joe. i am not ashamed of it. i really cannot see why i should.

    #165 5 months ago
  166. Legendaryboss

    @polygem It did not shift, it didn’t exist on the same level when you were here. I should know i was commenting when you “left forever” but actually didn’t because you were silently observing and nowhere did it shift to anyone else on the same level.

    Your saying your not catalyst but in actuality these type of conversations regarding “love letters, ignorance, deflection, attention seeking, leaving forever = lying” and other factors were not so commonly repeated when you “left forever”. I’m sorry but when all six members besides yourself are present and these interactions don’t take place on the same level (even in Nintendo threads), it has something to do with you.

    You don’t have to believe it, i don’t expect you to either.

    #166 5 months ago
  167. polygem

    @Djoenz
    well you certainly don´t know what i know about joe then and imo that plays a huge role in this scenario but ok, i can take that critique from you.
    like i said, i am not denying that i like to spit back but i certainly feel like i am the one admitting to be part of a problem but i certainly believe that others should be a bit more self aware and brave enough to admit that too…that really is all i am saking for. it´s not much.

    #167 5 months ago
  168. Djoenz

    @polygem
    I appreciate it how you responded man. I agree we should all admit when we are wrong.
    We should be more civil and should not do personal digs at eachother.

    I really like how you responded to my comment. Respect man. Between you and me there is nothing personal and I like to keep it that way.

    #168 5 months ago
  169. Legendaryboss

    @polygem You and Thewulf a perfect victim a few days ago? Okay that did indeed happened but what happened in this thread? You can’t fixate that you were being chased a few days ago and you do the exact same thing here, fighting fire with fire can get will get you so far.

    “just take a look at your post 108. how many times will you point out that i am writing love letters for nintendo? even here, in this thread. i´ve heard that one a million times lb.” How many times? Wherever the shoe fits.

    “you are a part of the problem and you are not fully aware of your posting behaviour if you cannot even admit that.”
    Me: “I’m fully aware of my posting behaviour…” I’m starting to think your not reading my posts. You first because you are feigning ignorance on a lot of factual claims. I am a problem? Again catalyst, leave for a month and see if i utter lover letter again. Its only a problem when the catalyst is here, when he isn’t, its not a problem. To be fair the catalyst includes you and your posts. I stated the love letters in this thread? Yes i know i posted that. Unlike you i won’t feign ignorance.

    #169 5 months ago
  170. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    example: this “left forever”… you used it now a few times – it makes you part of the problem. it´s a dig. you do it all the time. i am not complaining about that. you can use it if you want but ist´s your choice but it stays side blow nonetheless. love letters, we had ndf, the i forbid it crew. so many catchphrases i can´t even count. not only with me. you know that but realise it too. it triggers things. it has an intention. if you cannot see it, i don´t know what to say really. honestly guys. this goes in circles again. i wont accept that i am the “catalyst” of this. sorry but thats just way too easy – and yeah, plain wrong :) if we can agree on trying to get rid of all the old shit – i think it has a chance to change. if not. we´re just stuck. that´s how this goes in the end.
    i also don´t think that we need to analyze this situation much more. haven´t we been through this a million times?
    i apologize. sincerely. i will try to let it go. you don´t have to if you don´t want to. that´s all i can do for now.

    #170 5 months ago
  171. Djoenz

    @Dragon
    @JM
    @LB

    Let’s give it a rest man. Just sign the “petition” go to the forum cozy corner and just talk it out.
    No more bullshit of intentions or whatever. I now believe he is cincerely trying to make things work between certain members.

    Be the better person and just work it out. This site is for fun people. I have seen some other communities and let me tell you it’s far worse than on here seriously.

    Work it out please.

    #171 5 months ago
  172. Hcw87

    This is some funny shit, with some real gems in here.

    ”Joe Musashi is a very intelligent person that likes to observe people a lot and analyse them. That does not make him arrogant. IMO he is spot on on most of his observations and analysis.”

    I especially liked this one, props.

    #172 5 months ago
  173. polygem

    @Djoenz
    thanks dj. same here.

    #173 5 months ago
  174. Djoenz

    @Hcw87
    Whatever dude. I have analysed you a long time ago. I know exactly how you are. Well your internet persona that is. Everything JM said about you was spot on.

    Wether you agree or not I agree with him. I agree with what he said about you, because I have realised that ages ago as well.

    ;)

    #174 5 months ago
  175. Hcw87

    @174

    Oh god, now you’ve really hurt my feelings. Guess i’ll be stamped as a puny Xbox One fanboy forever then :( I’m going to lose sleep over that shit.

    Seriously though, it was some funny shit i read right there, and i had to read it twice to be sure you weren’t being sarcastic. Glad to know he has at least one fan i guess.

    #175 5 months ago
  176. Hcw87

    Also, posting comments throws out an internal 500 server error, this site needs some changed badly. Takes ages to post.

    It’s like they have noone who’s actually working on it since it got remade.

    #176 5 months ago
  177. Djoenz

    @Hcw87
    Yes in that regard he does have me as a fan.
    You are showing progress man. Finally acknowledgement! :D

    #177 5 months ago
  178. Gekidami

    @Legendaryboss
    “You and Thewulf a perfect victim a few days ago? Okay that did indeed happened”
    “You can’t fixate that you were being chased a few days ago and you do the exact same thing here, fighting fire with fire can get will get you so far.”

    I just want to point out that this in fact didnt actually happen:
    http://www.vg247.com/2014/02/22/the-legend-of-zelda-vr-clone-allows-you-to-see-the-world-through-links-eyes/
    So what do we see here exactly? Well first off Thewulf makes a dumb point, i point it out and why he’s wrong.
    He then decides he’ll just attack my character:
    “This always happens. You’ll have someone who says something interesting, then you’ll have a brown-noser who’ll be out to one-up them in order to make themselves seem better. It’s a basic, primal struggle for dominance that always amuses me. And it’s tremendously obvious because there was a snide insult rolled into the counter-statement, so that can’t really be denied.
    Essentially Gek? Your hormones are showing.”

    So i respond.
    Enter the man of the moment Polygem, as always his only goal is to attack and provoke me.

    So who was “chasing” who, exactly? Its just more proof that Polygem is looking for reactions only to then turn around and say he’s the victim, hence my “professional victim” line.

    #178 5 months ago
  179. Legendaryboss

    @polygem So while you can perfectly recall my posting behaviour (which i am indeed aware of) you won’t self-reflect on yourself. EVERYONE BUT ME IS GUILTY!

    Left forever is indeed a dig but i wasn’t the one who broke a promise and i wasn’t the one who started it.

    “love letters, we had ndf, the i forbid it crew. so many catchphrases i can´t even count. not only with me. you know that but realise it too. it triggers things. it has an intention. if you cannot see it, i don´t know what to say really.” Deflection, i have addressed this with you and only you plenty of times. But the difference is my posting behaviour doesn’t come under as much flack as yours and you only bring it up in retaliation when you have nothing to fall back on. Again i only used NDF on Francis alone, which is surprise, surprise new one reason why i can’t take you seriously.

    ‘i wont accept that i am the “catalyst” of this. sorry but thats just way too easy – and yeah, plain wrong :)” How can something be easy if its wrong? Ignorance.

    “if we can agree on trying to get rid of all the old shit – i think it has a chance to change. if not. we´re just stuck. that´s how this goes in the end.” Oh but it did indeed change, when you went away for a month and so the current catchphrase love letters ceased to exist. further ignorance.

    “i also don´t think that we need to analyze this situation much more. haven´t we been through this a million times?” Oh when you went away there was a break from this, never had to utter love letters until you came back. The left forever claim keeps coming back at you because it makes more sense than what your spouting. If you cannot see it, further, further ignorance.

    #179 5 months ago
  180. Legendaryboss

    @Djoenz Nothing ideally has to be worked out, If Polygem
    A. Went away for a month again and these type of conservations never happened then it shows whose the problem (like his leaving forever did).
    B. He wants me to sign that petition? He needs to prove he is committed, he acts how he was going to act (before he turned on his words) and if it is a significant change then fine i’ll consider it. Theres no reason to take a leap of faith based on words, not action.
    C. Admit to it all and at the very least arguments won’t get long-winded.

    I am not going to change when it is proven I don’t need to.

    #180 5 months ago
  181. Legendaryboss

    @Gekidami Sure right, okay so that claim wasn’t completely factual. Oh what a fucking surprise.

    #181 5 months ago
  182. polygem

    @ geki. your post nr. 6 was a nasty attack full of insults against da wulf. if you behave like this do not complain about a reaction in the same tone.

    #182 5 months ago
  183. Joe Musashi

    “i was trying to reach you my hand”

    A ransom note is not an olive branch.

    JM

    #183 5 months ago
  184. polygem

    @lb – i said that i am part of the problem. i admited that fully. i am not the only one to blame though. that´s way too easy and it´s just not true as well.
    sorry. can´t cope responding to everyone properly in those two threads. i underestimated how much work that´ll be :)

    #184 5 months ago
  185. Gekidami

    @polygem
    Read what i just said here, numbnuts. I responded because he attacked me first.

    Just more evidence of Polygem’s selective reading; ignore what was said to me first removing all context from my response. Polygems dishonesty at its best.

    #185 5 months ago
  186. polygem

    @lb: after reading your last post fully now. i think you just don´t want to? you could just say that then. would be much easier.

    #186 5 months ago
  187. polygem

    @Gekidami no you clearly insulted first or why should he visit a doctor?

    #187 5 months ago
  188. Legendaryboss

    @polygem You are not part of the problem, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM (That month break proved it). Your the catalyst Poly, the evidence was shown to you.

    #188 5 months ago
  189. Legendaryboss

    @polygem
    Edit: “i think you just don´t want to?” If it was a problem like yours, i would change. But it is proven i don’t have to and that doesn’t equal i don’t want to.

    #189 5 months ago
  190. Gekidami

    @polygem
    I was making jest of the fact he was describing a reality clearly not in line with medical science. Hardly an insult, but then you’ve got such a bee in your bonnet about me, anything i say is going to be seen by you as evil internet “bullying”.

    Though more to the point, what the hell did it have to do with you anyway? How does that justify you popping in clearly with the sole intent to attack me? It doesnt, its just another example of you hounding me because you want reactions you can later pretend you’re the victim of.
    I mean fuck! Thats exactly what you’ve done with that very instance! You came into those comments attacking me for no valid reason, yet at several points in these comments you’ve stated that event as me chasing you, me being the bully and you being the victim.

    Thats just a lie. You’re a liar and not even a very good one. Grow some fucking morals man.

    #190 5 months ago
  191. polygem

    @Legendaryboss
    again, lb. i hope you can at least try to look at the situation with a bit of a distance. i am the problem in the quarrel between you me dragon joe. we know our roles in that scenario by now. if i would leave this discussions will come to an end, that´s for sure. the thing is – and that´s what i am trying to explain to you – that this is not at all the evidence that i am the problem. no. we all play our roles in that one.
    the month i left, nothing changed on here overall but the discussion between you dragon joe and me came to an end. that was to be expected. it proves that we are having issues. that´s what i am trying to fix here. we wont make any progress if we are looking for the one guy that is to blame. this guy doesn´t exist. it rarely does in a faulty human interaction .actually it almost never does. it´s always a smorgasbord of multiple factors and it is the same here. we will never agree on a solution – the only way is a fucking reset. you just can´t stand there and point fingers into one direction. i wont accept that and i expect you to think about that at least. i will copy that into the cozy corner. can´t we agree on using that one please. would be a bit easier. not forcing anyone to sign up there for a new waching machine.

    #191 5 months ago
  192. polygem

    @Gekidami
    come on now geki. i am not hounding you at all. i did what i did in that zelda post and then this one right here. apolgies – but you have to admit that you really gave me hard time as well for quite some time now and i think you shouldn´t be too shocked about reactions like that if you dish it out the way you do.

    #192 5 months ago
  193. Gekidami

    @polygem
    I’m not going to accept that without actual proof of me doing those things. You said in your forum post that at several points i entered the comments solely to insult you for no reason before dropping out. I want to see these comments. At this point we need evidence because you have a track-record for lying.

    Case in point:
    “i did what i did in that zelda post and then this one right here. apolgies”
    I actually want to know what you did, i want to see YOU type it. Type the description of what actually happened in that thread, and how you decided to use that event in this one. If that isnt clear enough for you, i want to see you type: “Yes i lied”. If you want things to get better, first start to admit your own wrong doings.

    #193 5 months ago
  194. polygem

    @Gekidami
    ok then, i am not going to look that up now. i do not bookmark these things. i thought that you would remember it by yourself and would just admit it but i was wrong about that obviously. i really do not feel the need to prove this to you. we both know what happend. it´s pointless.
    i did not lie. my post was a reaction to you dishing it out to me on several occasions. one more thing. i never lie.

    #194 5 months ago
  195. polygem

    @polygem
    going there now. closing it here.
    http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic/cozy-corner/#post-452824

    #195 5 months ago
  196. Gekidami

    @polygem
    “One more thing. i never lie.”
    Caught in the act, red-handed he still chooses dishonesty. I’m done here, you dont deserve my time.
    In my opinion you should be banned for derailing these comments, up in till you posted everything was actually about the subject. LB is right, you’re the one who causes this time and time again. You’re a cancer on this site, one who aims to derail every article he posts in to make it about yourself. Its attention whoring at this finest, you do this on purpose because you want it, you crave the attention.

    #196 5 months ago
  197. polygem

    @Gekidami
    no geki that last post of yours was pretty much the only one worth a ban.

    #197 5 months ago
  198. Joe Musashi

    “apolgies – but you have to admit”

    No. That’s not an apology. That’s not how apologies work. You are not sorry, you are only saying a word as leverage to insist the other person is in the wrong.

    In the same way that you say you want change but you will only consider changing when others change.

    And then you declare what is ban worthy.

    Your subtext is that everything is about you. About the conditions and rules you want to see enforced. The behaviours others should follow to meet your comforts. Or be told they should be banned. From a community that you have no say in how its run. You are clearly so full of yourself, so insular, so remorselessly inconsiderate that you can adopt this pretence at being a victim whilst issuing dictatorial statements.

    LB hit the nail on the head but you cannot allow yourself to see it. It’s not that the group has issues the group needs to address. The one element, as history, as text, as black-and-white proof shows, is always the same. Add that unstable element to community discussion and the odds for massive derailment, personal attacks, conspiracy theories and toxic thinking go through the roof. Always with the same single element present. Insisting that it’s a group thing is yet more denial and spin.

    Whether you’re genuinely as insular and ignorant as your protestations make out or whether you merely playing a childish act – at this point it doesn’t matter. Neither course of action is altering anything.

    You reap what you sow.

    JM

    #198 5 months ago
  199. polygem

    joe:
    http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic/cozy-corner/#post-452852

    #199 5 months ago
  200. polygem

    @Joe Musashi
    you reap what you saw indeed joe. i am often taking part in these discussions because i do not ignore it when people insult, directly or passive aggressive. i almost always react to that, so i am there – present in these scenarios, others are clever enough to avoid that or just don´t even care anymore. yes, sometimes i can act like the wiggler, maybe sometimes my reactions are inadequate but that does not make me the cause for it, no matter how you twist it.

    #200 5 months ago
  201. polygem

    @polygem
    edit button please

    #201 5 months ago
  202. Joe Musashi

    You are no paragon of virtue, you are a liar with selective comprehension and a fondness for manipulating events.

    You are not some noble fighter of truth, defending innocents from evil comments on the internet.

    It has been proven, with evidence, in this very discussion, that you pursue others and jump into a discussion to contribute nothing but personal attacks. You habitually do this to a group of people who have not shared your opinion in the past – unable to tolerate a view that conflicts with your own (consistently deluded) one and so seek to rubbish the person instead and to bad mouth them to others to encourage them to do the same.

    You are the very opposite of the character you claim to be and everyone is sick of you lies, manipulation, brand-loyalist fuelled comments and little-boy-lost act.

    You lack such little wit and discipline that you ALWAYS have to reply and you ALWAYS show yourself up every time you do.

    JM

    #202 5 months ago
  203. Gekidami

    Look at this great dispenser of justice against the evils of the internet. What a hero… Of course as this thread and that other one shows (the one he was caught lying about, the so-called “perfect victim” one), our intrepid defender of the down-trodden doesnt actually look to much into what he’s defending and who he’s attacking. Why would he? He’s already devised a hit list. You dont need a reason when you’ve already got that.

    I mean, in this thread i’ve already shown i didnt start to insult anyone, only responded, and my comments are no more passive-aggressive than Goofiestchief’s very first posts who started the conversation with me. But you dont need context when you’re on a crusade, eh.

    I really ask that the staff consider banning Polygem at this point, he’s amazingly disruptive and he’s just admitted that his intention on this site isnt to partake in any conversations about the topics posted, but to hound people based off his twisted sense of “justice”. He’s a crazy person on the internet ruining the discussion.

    Whats the point of this shiny new site, if the trolls are just going to be left to run rampant like before? I know you guys tried stuff that didnt work, but it was pretty clear before the new site went up that only manual moderation was effective.

    #203 5 months ago
  204. polygem

    @Joe Musashi/Gekidami
    look at my inital post. totally on topic. then i jumped on geki because he clearly attacked another poster in his trademark passive aggressive style. yep, i can´t stand stuff like that – my bad but if you cannot see what you did there gekidami then i really think you should give that more attention (lol). if you tell someone that what he writes is not worth anyones time and just crap than this is a. gerneralizing. b. deflection, c. twisting to your liking and d. an insult coming out of the backdoor instead of confronting someone straight . you did hit a nerve, i fully admit it.

    then you guys jumped on me about that. this is what happened the rest is just deflection indeed….but not so much on my part.

    found one of your drop in drop out sideblows too geki. it´s posted in that other thread but i think we are in business as usual status anyway now.

    #204 5 months ago
  205. polygem

    i totally agree that this site needs active mods. absolutely. saying this for quite some time now.
    see geki, we have something in common. that´s a start.

    #205 5 months ago
  206. Joe Musashi

    “my bad but if you cannot see what you did there gekidami then i really think you should give that more attention (lol)”

    Again, shamelessly play-acting as apologist for no reason other than to accuse someone else as being in the wrong.

    You have no idea how to interact with others on any meaningful level.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopath

    JM

    #206 5 months ago
  207. X14EVR

    who wans to play gay anyway if you want that go to a gay bar or something and leaves games alone we dont need that shit we are men
    i dont ant a soldier who keeps asking to suckj off the other soldiers if im in battle who wants that shit in a game

    #207 5 months ago
  208. Goofiestchief

    @ddtd This is my last post.

    Oh in a video game, I absolutely think the voice actors can have just as much responsibility as writers/directors( Neal was also the director in motion capture scenes).Neil’s comments sound more like him literally saying that the material can actually disagree with him in an objective way as opposed to just saying its up to interpretation. Like the script agrees with him but the game doesn’t.

    Another difference between this and Hamlet is I don’t think Neil has the omnipotent like control over the project like Shakespeare did.

    Nonetheless, even Neil’s quotes aren’t foolproof.

    He talks about the voice actors having the same idea as him but based off Ashley’s comments, that’s not true. He also talks about there being some conflict in the studio over this so he probably has people that disagree with him. Saying that Ellie loved Riley is different than saying she’s gay and I think that’s Neil’s mistake.
    Did he just write her like that for left behind? Was she going through phases in left behind then grew out of it? Like okay, you wrote her to be gay. Gay in what sense? Cause I saw it more as puppy love.

    It’s not so much that I just have a different interpretation than Neil’s. I also think Neil has no idea what his own interpretation is.

    If I actually met Ellie in real life, would she be a lesbian? Actually talk to her, without any outside source(including Neil). Based off my experience in the game, I highly doubt it.

    #208 5 months ago

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