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Senran Kagura: importing Japan’s sexualised sub-culture

Wednesday, 26th February 2014 12:20 GMT By Dave Cook

Senran Kagura Burst is the titillating Japanese brawler coming to Nintendo 3DS in Europe this week. Dave Cook discusses the culture of sexualisation in Japan with Kenichirō Takaki, and looks at key examples of exploitation with the industry.

Senran_kagura

I hadn’t heard of the Senran Kagura series before two-game compilation ‘Senran Kagura Burst’ was confirmed for release in the West. Coined by developer Tamsoft, the series has proven so popular in Japan that it’s spawned a novel, anime television series and a handful of games.

It stars the girls of Hanzō Academy; a band of trainee ninjas charged with battling rival clans. The more damage they take during fights, the more their clothes rip off. Special moves trigger cut-scenes complete with close-up shots of their exposed, jiggling bodies. The girls look ashamed as they become stripped, and their most-private parts are concealed beneath chibi faces. Some of these girls are supposed to be between 15-18 years-old.

Here’s a typical battle scene:

We have reported on this series in the past, but only recently have I really dug into what it involves. The game’s cover was also revealed recently, but for reasons you may feel are prudish; I chose not to post it on our site. It looks like this.

After seeing the art I felt that with all of the debate surrounding the treatment of women – not just within titles, but those working on games across the globe – that Senran Kagura is coming to our shores at a most unfortunate time. We’ve seen great discussion on the role of female protagonists from writers such as Tomb Raider scribe Rhianna Pratchett, along with the rising prominence of developers such as 343′s Kiki Wolfkill, the VR tinkering of former Valve employee Jeri Ellsworth and the continuing work of Jade Raymond, to name just a few.

Despite whatever concerns I may have, one glance at YouTube ‘Let’s Plays’ reveals genuine excitement for the game and its sexual aspects. Here’s a snapshot of a recent search query:

senran_kagura_youtube

It’s all too easy to look at this and say, ‘Well it’s a Japanese game; they have a different culture to ours,’ or to pass Senran Kagura off as a bit of laddish fun. Do we ignore such exploitation because it’s intended as a joke, or is this another case of Eastern studios importing a slice of ingrained sexism to our shores? For this critic, it’s counter-productive, and that’s not a comment I’m solely aiming at Senran Kagura either. It’s a wider issue.

You saw examples of rank sexualisation in Warface, with its busty, cleavage-toting avatars, and in the case of Deep Down, the complete lack of playable female characters. Capcom claims that women have been excluded for story reasons, but from where I’m sitting there needs to be a bloody good explanation as to why that’s the case. I’m going out on a limb to guess that there isn’t one. Brenna covered the issue in this heated blog last week.

Even Hideo Kojima confirmed that he ordered artist Yoji Shinkawa make Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain sniper Quiet more “erotic,” to encourage cosplay, and to help the PlayArts action figure to sell well. This furthers the idea that some content creators out there genuinely believe that the key to generating more interest in their products is to over-sexualise and exploit by exaggerating or exposing their female quotient. I don’t subscribe to this point of view. It’s horrid. The industry is better than this.

The counter-argument I hear often is that men are exploited in games too because they are muscular, out of proportion hulks that are at odds with those of a portly or waif-like disposition. That’s crocodile tears, an utterly bonehead riposte if ever I saw one. I challenge anyone to convince me that taking strong female leads and stripping them down to giggling, half naked objects of desire is the same as taking a weak man and making him a chiselled hero.

Senran_kagura_anime

I wanted to hear what Senran Kagura’s game producer Kenichiro Takaki had to say regarding the game’s depiction of woman and how the attitude towards females differs between Japanese and Western culture. I arranged to speak with him over email, via publisher MarvelousAQL. I explained that throughout 2013 western game development saw great advancement in the treatment of women characters, and asked if he could see the same happening in Japan any time soon.

“It’s important to note that a high amount of sexualisation is not the primary way of depicting female characters in Japan. What are considered positive traits stem from each region’s own cultural values, so direct comparisons between the two will probably remain difficult.”

Takaki replied, “I think it’s important to note that a high amount of sexualisation is not the primary way of depicting female characters in Japan, either. That said, though what we feel contributes to a character’s ‘depth’ may differ between cultures, I think there are many positively portrayed female characters in Japanese entertainment, and new ones continue to be created every day. What are considered positive traits, however, stem from each region’s own cultural values, so direct comparisons between the two will probably remain difficult.”

I explained that from the outside looking in, it’s not hard to see why people believe that over-sexualisation is just the culture in Japan, and something that won’t be going away any time soon. Takaki countered, “If we look into the past we can see a lot of change throughout Japan’s history, with the influence of Western culture being a major recent contributor.

“And while I don’t know what the future holds, cultures that refuse to change with time simply disappear, so I’m sure Japan will continue to evolve. But I do hope the fun that the small community of fans of games like Senran Kagura enjoy doesn’t have to be sacrificed along the way.”

Senran_kagura_3

Takaki’s response felt counter to Goichi Suda’s view on Killer is Dead’s Gigolo scenes, which saw players wooing busty females and staring at their body to fill up their ‘guts’ meter. Once full, protagonist Mondo propositions his target before triggering a sex scene. The women giggle, act ashamed when they catch you ogling them and talk about submitting themselves to you entirely. I found it disgusting and I penned a blog to that effect here.

Suda responded to the issue by saying, “Any kind of artistic value, anything you create, there’s always some kind of criticism behind it. Which means we’re making an impression and an impact. So I think we’ll stay with what we’re thinking and just keep going with that way of thinking … And when I say that, sexuality is a touchy subject. We don’t want to make people offended, but we’re trying to create something that makes people laugh a bit because we’re [dealing with] that topic.”

I’d reply to that by asking how, exactly, presenting women as dullards that can be won over with flowers and perfume – before having the hero bed them repeatedly – deals with the issue of over-sexualisation. Short answer; it doesn’t. At all.

I suggested to Takaki that Western gamers might not respond the same way to that sub-set of Japanese culture, given the vast differences and views on gender between both territories. Takaki agreed, and added, “Sometimes when I travel abroad I do get the sense that Japan’s attitudes may seem unusual when viewed from other countries. However, such attitudes are not limited to portrayals of females – there is entertainment for women that focuses on male sexuality, too.

“But the goal of such entertainment isn’t to degrade the opposite sex; it’s simply about men and women enjoying each other’s sexuality. The reality may seem less equal than it is because the forms of entertainment made for women aren’t as well known. But I don’t want to generalize about all of Japan with my answer, and I don’t mean to claim that no objectionable content exists at all, either.”

Senran_Kagura_1

To Takaki’s credit he was both balanced, reasonable and open about what Senran Kagura entails throughout our exchange, even going so far as welcoming opinions post-launch so he could learn from them. He never once pretended that the game was anything else. “Negative reactions aren’t unique to games like Senran Kagura,” he stressed, “you’re bound to get them for anything you do.

“For creators like myself, the most frightening scenario would be to release a work and receive absolutely no reaction to it at all.”

“But we’re already receiving a lot of positive reactions, too, and I’m going to keep making my games for the people who want to play them. I won’t try to change the minds of those who don’t. And for creators like myself, the most frightening scenario would be to release a work and receive absolutely no reaction to it at all.”

On the game’s outfit-shredding damage mechanic, Takaki explained, “The characters lose clothing as they take damage. So it works as an interesting representation of something that’s otherwise just a numerical value, while playing with the suspense you get from revealing something a little bit at a time.

“That’s important because it speaks directly to instinct. Sexual desire is an innate part of human nature, and much like with common themes of violence, video games provide us with a safe environment to explore that part of ourselves. These may be things that we would never consider expressing in real life, but escapism is something that games excel at, right?”

In the end Takaki feels he is making a game for a minority that we all know still exists, rather than trying to push taboos or controversial subjects on to the widespread gaming audience. To that end, it could be argued that his games are specialist or ‘to-hand’ should you be inclined to seek them out. “Senran Kagura is essentially a niche title,” he stressed, “in an industry where the available products have been gradually consolidating around a smaller number of major AAA titles. My intentions for this game were never to create a huge worldwide hit.

Senran_kagura_2

“I just wanted to make a game starring attractive girl characters, for the small but dedicated audience that enjoys that type of game here in Japan – so I was completely focused on making what I wanted, and what those fans would want, from such a game. At the time, Western perceptions were not something I was considering at all. Now, it’s easy to imagine that in the West there may be many people who feel the game is inappropriate. But that is true in Japan as well.

“When I first announced Senran Kagura, I wrote the following comment on my production blog: ‘There’s room for this type of game, too!’ My feeling is that just as there are many different opinions throughout the world, there ought to be many forms of entertainment as well.”

It’s clear that Senran Kagura has not been designed to directly inflame or court controversy, and if you feel you’d like to play those games for a laugh then that is entirely at your discretion. I cannot and will not try to stop you, because I respect the opinions of our readership and gamers everywhere. However, I for one simply can’t overlook the game’s flagrant depiction of females given the culture of positive change I see during my work every day.

I want women to be respected individuals in the games industry. I will never know how it feels to be discriminated against for being a woman. That’s simply impossible, so I won’t even begin to try or pretend and understand how it feels. To do that would be an insult to women, so it’s not something I’ll do here.

What I will say is that there are probably plenty of men and women out there who see no problem with what Senran Kagura is doing, and that – again – is their decision. But to outwardly deny that the game indirectly conflicts with the positive advancements we’ve seen through 2013 in the way women are depicted and written into games, as well as the healthy conversations taking place regarding women in the workplace, is to lose sight of everything we’ve achieved in this area so far.

I sincerely hope I’m not alone in this.

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170 Comments

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  1. Michael Ireland

    I would argue that boiling male characters down to steroidal meatheads is just as bad as female gender exploitation, but that’s not the subject of this particular topic.

    This part stuck out for me.

    “That’s important because it speaks directly to instinct. Sexual desire is an innate part of human nature, and much like with common themes of violence, video games provide us with a safe environment to explore that part of ourselves. These may be things that we would never consider expressing in real life, but escapism is something that games excel at, right?”

    In all fairness, he’s completely right about this and it’s a point I support 100%. Unfortunately, it also fully admits that a certain uncomfortable subset of Japanese culture is engrossed and fascinated by this sort of content, and that’s not a good thing.

    Censoring stuff obviously won’t get rid of the problem, and I’d rather they fall back on a tasteless video game than actually act on their urges, but that doesn’t mean it any more acceptable or right. It’s a complex cultural problem though, that isn’t going to go away any time soon.

    #1 2 months ago
  2. Legendaryboss

    Yep this won’t end well.

    #2 2 months ago
  3. Dave Cook

    @Legendaryboss Why not? I’ve been balanced down the middle.

    #3 2 months ago
  4. IrrationalGamer

    /serious This debate comes up all too often for my taste, and one thing that I’d really like to know for the feminists out there who argue against this kind of thing is…

    1) Are you against pornography as well? If you’re for pornography but against this, please explain (because I really, really don’t understand the difference). If you’re against pornography, good luck on that.

    2) How is something like this any different than women enjoying a rom-com movie (which may be an idealization of how men should act towards women)? Men like sex, and so this is apparently an outlet for some men (and for others, various types of porn etc.).

    3) What about women who read romance novels? If that’s what the women want, they have it. Why can’t the men have what they want? Are you arguing to ban all forms of sexuality from any medium?

    #4 2 months ago
  5. Dragon

    Brilliant interview. As I said earlier, I am thoroughly impressed with Takaki’s answers (although I am quite sure PR helped him ;) )
    However,
    “However, I for one simply can’t overlook the game’s flagrant depiction of females given the culture of positive change I see during my work every day.”
    ” But to outwardly deny that the game indirectly conflicts with the positive advancements we’ve seen through 2013 in the way women are depicted and written into games, as well as the healthy conversations taking place regarding women in the workplace, is to lose sight of everything we’ve achieved in this area so far.”
    Is something I don’t agree with.

    The game, as he said, is a niche. The worst anyone can say is that its soft core porn. Does porn in any way degrade anyone? It may well be the case. But really, for an audience whose most favourite shows includes Game of Thrones etc. , its sounds hypocritical.

    And similarly, why does it matter if a single game conflict with a view? Being a niche already frees it from those compulsions. Its like taking a niche film and commenting on how it somehow it should cater to your view, when the creator makes it painfully obvious that the game is <i.not for you.

    I explained that throughout 2013 western game development saw great advancement in the treatment of women characters, and asked if he could see the same happening in Japan any time soon.”,
    The answer given by him was perfect, and something I would echo. Pushing on your scale of morality on others, who have a different culture, is just not right imo. There is no right treatment or wrong treatment, it depends on cultures and communities and the society in question.
    And really, I don’t think everyone should care how ‘outsiders’ feel about them, on a personal level and on a community level. Everyone doesn’t need to have tastes, or opinions.

    I hope you don’t watch game of thrones after listening to your views :lol:

    #5 2 months ago
  6. Legendaryboss

    @Dave Cook Not the article, i could be wrong but i sense something else happening.

    #6 2 months ago
  7. Dragon

    “It’s a complex cultural problem though, that isn’t going to go away any time soon.”
    Like the one where shows like game of thrones enjoy immense popularity, or where crass humour of south park is celebrated?

    Please. No single person is qualified enough to talk about “cultural problems”, especially when they are an outsider to that community. That just reeks of a superiority complex.

    How about tolerating/b> the taste of others?

    #7 2 months ago
  8. Dave Cook

    @Dragon I can tolerate it fine, I don’t have to like it :P

    And when I said it’s not going away any time soon, I meant just that. It’ll never go away, and I accept that.

    I’m not trying to put a stop to the culture, that’d be crazy of me. Just observing.

    #8 2 months ago
  9. YoungZer0

    Ugh, this again.

    Yes, it’s a different culture. Compare this to games like Mortal Kombat.

    I bet you’d argue that they are all harmless fun, that it’s not real. That games like Mortal Kombat don’t make you a violent person. That all the new x-ray vision in the last Mortal Kombat was actually kind of cool and exciting.

    But for some reason – when it comes to sexuality – people just show an ignorant side of themselves that I truly disappointing and a little bit immature to be honest.

    We have people like old Jack Thompson (that don’t play video games) argue that games that feature violence create violent behavior. That it influences us in such a big way, that our perception changes. We become more violent.

    Most of us, if not all come out and argue that he’s full of shit. That he has no idea. We demand studies that prove his point. We dismiss his argument because he doesn’t play video games.

    Then, we have people like Anita Sarkessian (that admitted in a video that she does not play video games) argue that games that can be … deemed sexist, create sexist and violent behavior towards women. That it changes our perception of women. That we think less of them because we had to rescue princess peach one too many times.

    The community is split. Completely. People focus on her backlash more than they focus on her poorly researched and ignorant arguments. There is no demand for prove or studies. For some reason we don’t seem to think that she has to prove any credibility.

    You can’t exploit virtual characters. You’re not killing anyone in real life when you burst the rib cage of Johnny in Mortal Kombat. You’re not forcing anyone to cosplay as Quiet.

    All of them. Each and every last one of them; they don’t fucking exist. You can’t exploit something that does not exist.

    There is no crime here.

    I find that game to be extremely embarrassing, but that’s about it. You’re making a huge fuss over absolutely nothing.

    #9 2 months ago
  10. Dragon

    @Dave Cook,
    That attitude…
    I like it ;)

    Btw, last comment was meant for #1, not you.

    #10 2 months ago
  11. Dragon

    @YoungZer0,
    http://www.troll.me/images/pissed-off-obama/you-deserve-a-medal-p.jpg

    #11 2 months ago
  12. Patashnik

    Great interview, and it’s nice to see someone not forcing their perspective.

    I find Takaki-san’s answers refreshing – like you say, he’s not ‘apologising’ for his content, and is very direct about what the game is and who it’s for. Personally, I absolutely agree 100% with what he says. There is a place for this kind of content and I don’t think creating this kind of content is necessarily bad. Bizarrely, I know more women than men who are buying this.

    Odd though this may seem – personally I find this less objectionable than Tomb Raider. Senran Kagura is what it is – silly, sexual fantasy.

    I find Tomb Raider more deplorable in that it’s masquerading as reality. It can be seen as ‘aspirational’ in some way – and yet, behind the mud and grubby clothes, she’s still a sexual object – and the means of making her seem less so is to give her more masculine traits on the one side, and yet on the other increasingly vulnerable.

    Tomb Raider is doing it’s best to pretend to be progressive – when in reality it still isn’t.

    #12 2 months ago
  13. POOhead

    this is getting boring and vgs trying too hard to be tumblr. why not make a article about south park offending females who have had abortions instead of copying and pasting the same articles

    #13 2 months ago
  14. sonny

    @Dave: I’m pretty sure, I have seen this article here 1 or 2 weeks ago. After reading it I noticed that it was taken off the site again. Any particular reason why you held it back? Just wondering…

    #14 2 months ago
  15. Dave Cook

    @POOhead or you could try actually reading it ;)

    #15 2 months ago
  16. IrrationalGamer

    @Dave Cook I’ve now read the piece twice, but the issue doesn’t totally make sense to me.

    I don’t think I’ll ever understand why men can’t look at pornographic imagery without the feminist brigade jumping in. Why can’t people have the fantasies they want? They’re fantasies. Apparently there was a feminist movement around the 80s that believed that porn would lead to rape. Interesting how that sounds like the exact argument regarding violence in comics, video games, movies etc. An argument that hasn’t seemed to have flown very far anytime it’s made.

    #16 2 months ago
  17. wildBoar

    Just like pornography has destroyed society’s moral values, to the dismay of many a soccer mom right Dave? Obviously pornography and a healthy workplace can’t coexist in the same universe either, they indirectly conflict with “everything we’ve achieved so far”.

    That’s why we can’t have violence in video games either, because some fat nerd who plays video games (LOL) will go on a killing spree if we allow that. If we allow fap-material like this to run rampant, social norms will fly right out the window!

    It will destroy the industry’s credibility, because this medium still has so much to prove after all, as it’s such a weird nerdy medium full of neckbeards and mysogynists. Yet these darned video games keep popping up, it’s almost as if anyone with a computer can make video games.. And almost as if there’s a demand for these games. Ofcourse we cannot possibly allow this to continue in “our industry”, because that is “to lose sight of everything we’ve achieved”..

    What cause you’re championing Dave, whether you’re willing to acknowledge so or not, is one of cenzorship. Which we all know, is always the correct “answer”. Amanda Palmer would agree. That these idiotic click-bait articles are still popping up to protect “the industry” is quite hilarious though. I guess it’s because it would require an actual thought process to approach the with any logic or rationality. I guess the patriarchy must continue so long as we allow artistic freedom. Great job tho 10/10.

    #17 2 months ago
  18. Dave Cook

    @IrrationalGamer yeah, I acknowledged that people like this kind of stuff – men and women alike – but are you saying it doesnt conflict at all with the mature and realistic depictions of females weve seen in games these last 12 months.

    At no point did I say people shouldnt be able to look at this game.

    #18 2 months ago
  19. Dave Cook

    @wildBoar im categorically not championing censorship. Absolutely not the point I was making.

    In fact I say repeatedly that Takaki’s within his right, as are the men and women who like these games. I actually said that a few times in the article.

    My point is that there’s a culture clash here. The west is working to promote gender equality while Japan – disclaimer: I DO like many Japanese games – seems kind of static.

    It’s all in the article, seriously.

    #19 2 months ago
  20. polygem

    i am 100% signing the conclusion of this article.

    everything you do has an effect effect on RL. because everything IS real life.

    if you make a game like this you must know that you did your part in establishing a culture of sexism. you support sexism and promote it and you have to live with that decision.

    i wont judge that but a gamedesigner and the audience playing it should refelct exactly about what they are doing and supporting by supporting.

    #20 2 months ago
  21. polygem

    @polygem
    EDIT BUTTON PLEASE!!!

    #21 2 months ago
  22. Sam Malik

    I just want this game for two reasons.
    1,The fantastic looking combat. It looks so fun and I don’t think I have played a game that looks like this. And…
    2. It looks so freaking hilarious! I guess that you can say that the “shot” scenes look so bad that they are laughably good.

    I never really buy games just because they are sexuallised. I’m 17 going on 18 in April andI usually buy games for the Gameplay and Story/humor (such as Kid Icarus Uprising) and this game falls within the gameplay in humor category for me.

    #22 2 months ago
  23. dizzygear

    @18 “but are you saying it doesnt conflict at all with the mature and realistic depictions of females weve seen in games these last 12 months.”

    And so what if it does. Its a games about girls with huge boobs beating the snot out of each other without any pretence its anything more.
    Dont like it? Dont fucking play it or write long winded articles about it because this shit is getting old and wont achieve anything except free promotion for this game.
    Hell i bought the Killer is Dead Fan Edition out of spite because of the constant whining about gigolo mode.

    By the way every screen shot in this article is from Senran Kagura: Shinovi Versus for Vita that is not even released in the west instead of Senran Kagura: Burst for 3DS.

    #23 2 months ago
  24. IrrationalGamer

    @Dave Cook Conflict? Dave, I can appreciate The Last of Us’ dlc in which Ellie surprisingly does something surprising. And it’s not sexually titillating for me. It’s just a…surprise, and an interesting development. And I appreciate that world in a different way than I would a Super Mario game.

    Now what you’re arguing seems to suggest that, for example, if you like a slow, plot-driven, thoughtful movie, you definitely can’t enjoy a semi-mindless, comedy-ridden, action movie; and they definitely, certainly can’t exist in the same universe, or everything would just explode.

    #24 2 months ago
  25. wildBoar

    @Dave Cook You seem far more interested in impying these two things are inherently at odds with one another rather than simply juxtaposing them, like something one might do if one was writing about a “culture clash” rather than just a ranting opinion piece.

    The fact that you imply that completely simple pornographic games pandering to heterosexual males can’t coincide with gender equality is also rather hilarious I must say.

    I’d give these things another thought or two if I were you.

    #25 2 months ago
  26. Dragon

    @dizzygear,
    +1

    #26 2 months ago
  27. polygem

    @dizzygear
    you can enjoy the game, others can write critical articles about it. simple as that.
    imo it would be very alarming if there wouldn´t be any sort of critical feedback for a game like this.
    noone wants this to be censored, everyone can choose to buy it or not…but if you do buy it, i guess you have to live with the fact that some people will question that decision of yours and people who think that a game like this promotes sexism will have to live with the fact this game exists and that people are buying it.

    #27 2 months ago
  28. Dave Cook

    @dizzygear Yes, I know the images are from the PS Vita edition.

    #28 2 months ago
  29. Hunam

    I think the worst treatment of a female character in gaming in recent times is probably Lightning. Turning her into a busty dress up doll from a stoic, strong champion does not sit right with me at all. This game has characters who are designed for titillation, it’s basically a game version of NUTS, but taking a female character who is popular, tearing down why she is popular and replacing it with an over sexualised version is way worse.

    It’d be like if in the final Hunger Games films having Katniss just spend the entire time draping around in lingerie and pushing her chest out.

    #29 2 months ago
  30. Dragon

    @dizzygear,
    You know, Xseed hinted at its localisation at last new years.
    I am assuming digital though.

    @Dave Cook,
    Its not really Vita edition. The games are completely different. Vita games (3D ones) have much more fanservice than the 3DS games (they are 2D games). Its not really a fair representation for the 3DS games, which differ completely in all aspects from the Vita game (story, gameplay, fanservice, everything).

    #30 2 months ago
  31. fihar

    @Dave Cook
    “The west is working to promote gender equality while Japan – disclaimer: I DO like many Japanese games – seems kind of static.”

    Are you familiar with the recent Hakuoki games?
    This was a good interview, but I feel that most western journalists are only highlighting the rather questionable side of Japanese games.

    FYI, Hakuoki is a visual novel with heavy emphasis on dating sim with a female main character.
    A lady friend of mine actually first introduced me to the PSP version a couple years back and despite my apprehension, I ended up enjoying the game. It was very well written and the historical background (with actual Shinsengumi members being your potential love interests) is interesting enough for it to not only appeal to females. I actually like it enough for me to want Chizuru, that’s the main character, to get a good ending, which she did, bless her soul.
    And the kicker is that these games were made by Idea Factory.

    Gender equality is not all about presenting both sexes in video games on equal terms, it’s also about giving female gamers the same care and attention you’d normally give those testosterone-fueled CoD fanboys and Hakuoki is a shining example of how Japan is not just about high-school children stripping down for your pleasure.

    With that out of way, was the game actually any decent or is it just a bundle of sexual gratification as your write-up made it out to be?

    #31 2 months ago
  32. Michael Ireland

    “Like the one where shows like game of thrones enjoy immense popularity, or where crass humour of south park is celebrated?”

    Game of Thrones is popular because of its story. Its violence has context. And it always boils down to context. Sex without context is still as stupid as violence without context.

    South Park has always been crap.

    “No single person is qualified enough to talk about “cultural problems”, especially when they are an outsider to that community. That just reeks of a superiority complex.”

    Having an opinion reeks of a superiority complex?

    Okay then.

    #32 2 months ago
  33. dizzygear

    @polygem “imo it would be very alarming if there wouldn´t be any sort of critical feedback for a game like this.”

    I honestly cant remember a similar backlash to Ar Tonelico Qoga for the PS3 when it was released in the west. Its a JRPG where you can strip your female party members to power up their spells and than some. I genuinely thought that game took it way too far and could have stayed in Japan for all i cared.

    Maybe the whole sexism topic was not the cool thing to write about back than.

    But sure people may have their opinions about this issue but i’m just growing tired of this topic. Its the 90′s all over again with Mortal Kombat supposedly promoting violence except this time around its boobs instead of fatalities and sexism instead of violence.

    #33 2 months ago
  34. wildBoar

    If one actually acknowledged the validity others opinions on a matter. You wouldn’t find it necessary to write dumb articles like this would you?

    When you’re so “right” about everything, and everyone else is so “wrong” after all, you simply can’t help but constantly shove your opinion in everyone’s face.

    Just like the Mormons, these glorified bloggers are trying to save us poor plebs from our idiocy. The asspocalypse is coming.

    #34 2 months ago
  35. Michael Ireland

    @dizzygear Its nothing like that.

    Most journalists aren’t claiming its corrupting and destroying humanity as we know it, or that it’s the cause of the problem. They’re simply making critical assessments on the nature of the beast.

    People can’t seem to just discuss subjects. Instead of of people criticising the journalist, why don’t they focus on the actual subject of the article and why it is / isn’t correct?

    Who am I kidding? That’s expecting way too much from the Internet.

    #35 2 months ago
  36. Hcw87

    ”The more damage they take during fights, the more their clothes rip off. Special moves trigger cut-scenes complete with close-up shots of their exposed, jiggling bodies. The girls look ashamed as they become stripped, and their most-private parts are concealed beneath chibi faces. Some of these girls are supposed to be between 15-18 years-old.”

    This is the problem right here. I have NO issues with ”softcore porn” in games aslong as the characters look underage. But to have girls that are supposed to be between 15-18 years old in a theme like this is just downright wrong. I have no idea how people can actually play these games without being creeped the fuck out.

    Yes, you can argue it’s ”just a game”, but it still reeks like a pedo-simulator to me. I can’t imagine any normal person playing this junk.

    #36 2 months ago
  37. Hcw87

    @Hcw87

    Oh look, a massive typo and no edit button in sight.

    What i meant to say was:

    ”This is the problem right here. I have NO issues with ”softcore porn” in games aslong as the characters DO NOT look underage.”

    #37 2 months ago
  38. Dave Cook

    @wildBoar Are you crazy? I’ve said clearly and often that I respect other people’s opinions :/

    I even said that in the article. Are you choosing to ignore this?

    #38 2 months ago
  39. wildBoar

    @Michael Ireland On the matter of sensationalist articles, and especially opinion pieces like this I think it’s more than fair to include the author in the debate when it’s he who puts his personal beliefs front and center of the article. If it wasn’t an opinion piece, I’d agree.

    #39 2 months ago
  40. wildBoar

    @Dave Cook If someone is fine and respectful of everyone’s different opinions existing in the same sphere as themselves, why would they have an urge to push your own opinion so hamfistedly out there then? I fail to think of one, I said from of course click bait.

    The fact that you can’t keep from using words like “disguisting” whenever you get a chance, doesn’t make it seem like you’re either very respectful or understanding of the divided opinion on these things within your articles. Putting a little apologetic “I respect the” blablabla, doesn’t change anything about the attitude or narrative you’re pushing. It’s simply makes you look like a hypocrite.

    Don’t feel a need to respond though, this is why I stopped coming to this site in the first place. Clearly I should keep going with that.

    #40 2 months ago
  41. Dragon

    @Michael Ireland,
    “South Park has always been crap.”
    Oh really? So why aren’t you in those threads bashing the western sub-culture and people (many of whom ironically are big “feminists” here, not talking about you) love it to bits?

    “Most journalists aren’t claiming its corrupting and destroying humanity as we know it, or that it’s the cause of the problem. They’re simply making critical assessments on the nature of the beast.”
    And how many of them looked at their own backyard and wrote as much condemning material for upcoming south park game? Or game of thrones game?
    Nope.

    As I said earlier, I think this is a brilliant (a bit PR managed, but brilliant) piece from Dave, and I talked about this with him few days ago too.

    Most journalists aren’t claiming its corrupting and destroying humanity as we know it, or that it’s the cause of the problem. They’re simply making critical assessments on the nature of the beast.”
    No. Unlike Dave’s article here, where even though I don’t completely agree with his points, is very balanced, western media has quite a number of shitty writers (not talking about video game writers only, the general media) who will jump on the bandwagon to hate other communities. To be fair though, same happens with other media from other regions too.

    I would agree though, tempers need to come down a bit.

    #41 2 months ago
  42. Reckr

    Explain to me Mr. Journalist Dave Cook.

    Why do you find games selling sexual themes so appalling and yet are you completely fine with games glorifying violence, crime, murder and even going as far to use violence as their main selling point?

    Especially for a journalist you should question your own morality before shaming yourself with prejudiced articles such as this. You have no right to shame developers for using sexual themes in their products, whether it be to just to sell more or to create a genuine product.

    #42 2 months ago
  43. wildBoar

    @wildBoar Blablabla edit button.

    #43 2 months ago
  44. matsuringo

    This whole viewpoint really operates under the assumption that praising or highlighting sexual features is a negative thing. The fact of the matter is that Japan and the West view sexuality in entirely different ways; we tend to view sexuality as more ‘taboo’ or ‘bad’ in the US/UK/AUS because of our prudent religious pasts and traditions, whereas sexuality is a more open and celebrated part of life in Japan. If you really want to work toward progressing culture and the medium of gaming, you shouldn’t be attacking game content; you should be vouching for just what can be put into a game.

    This kind of assumption based opinion is what appalls me the most in the games industry today. You’re saying it’s bad that this game stars sexualised females because you assume that fact somehow has a negative affect on how females are actually treated in real life. Let me tell you, I’ve seen about as many males in real life who have gone on murder rampages because of Call of Duty as I’ve seen males who treat women differently because of DoA: Extreme Beach Volleyball (hint: none). Having that kind of assumption is no worse than sensationalist American news networks claiming GTA causes children to commit real acts of violence.

    Lastly I think what upsets me the most about this kind of article is that you’ve blatantly assumed that these characters in this game are no more than eye candy just because they’re sexual in nature; that is to say you assume they aren’t well portrayed women because of their appearance. If you’d bothered to give the game a shot, you’d find that the characters are actually very well written and act like very natural people. The biggest crime ‘social justice’ advocates bring to video gaming is assuming that a female character needs to not be attractive in order to be an interesting, well written character.

    And that sir, is more ridiculous than anything Japan can make.

    #44 2 months ago
  45. polygem

    @Reckr
    violent games, while sometimes morally questionable, no doubt about that, especially some military war glorifying shooters, do not repress the rights of a whole group of human beings by reducing their whole existence on being cute and sexy. in this case women. if a violent game would show violence exclusively against men, women, indians, gays…then it would be even more of an issue.
    sexism is a discrimination – universal violence, while definitely questionable, is not.
    i also agree with michael. the context really is everything.

    #45 2 months ago
  46. Dave Cook

    @wildBoar So critics should just report things blindly without having an opinion, and when they do voice that opinion they’re only doing it for clicks.

    I’d hate to have your warped perspective. Really I would.

    #46 2 months ago
  47. polygem

    @matsuringo
    that argument is flawed. i think the ´violent game influenced amok school killer´argument is pure nonsense. to kill another human being it needs more than just playing violent games. it obviously is mainly a psychological problem. before you will be able to kill someone you have to make it over a HUGE hurdle. you can´t compare that to the sexism debate. not even slightly. it´s easy to judge a fat woman as a human being not worth as much as a hot chick…and that´s exactly what games like these promote. drop by drop.

    #47 2 months ago
  48. dymax

    Senran Kagura is essentially softcore porn, please don’t compare it to other games or try to use it to generalize how women are represented in Japanese games. This article seems like click bait which is a shame because I actually like vg247 a lot, I don’t want to have to remove this site from my RSS feed.

    #48 2 months ago
  49. Michael Ireland

    @Dragon

    “Oh really? So why aren’t you in those threads bashing the western sub-culture and people (many of whom ironically are big “feminists” here, not talking about you) love it to bits?”

    I wasn’t aware I was “bashing” anything, but I would like to point out that long before you were a member here, I aired my distaste for the ultra violence seen in many western titles, and still do when a relevant article come up.

    I do think violence in video games is something that needs to be looked at too, not as an agenda for censorship but purely as an analysis of artistic merit, but I also feel that violence isn’t half the draw it used to.

    Again, context. Silent Hill is one of my favourite franchises, but it’s not because I *like* the graphic content. In fact, it often repulses me. But it brings my mind to places that a simple horror movie doesn’t, because I’m not involved directly in it.

    Sex can work in games, but this is the equivalent of a “Sofy Core Anime Tittles Volume 5″ DVD. If that’s your thing, go for it. I fully agree with Takaki that at least it gives people an outlet for their urges. But that doesn’t make the existence of an expanding fetishistic otaku culture okay. That’s an issue that goes way beyond the bounds of video games though, and isn’t caused by them.

    This article isn’t about me. It’s about the subject at hand. No reason to discuss apples in an article about oranges.

    #49 2 months ago
  50. wildBoar

    @Dave Cook I’m merely pointing out that it’s the single positive outcome of the bullshit that is Anita sarkeesian and Kotaku, and also articles like this. It’s a hot button sensationalist topic that generates clicks, that’s how it goes. I merely implied though, I never said you don’t actually believe this stuff like you’re claiming.

    You could simply admit to be pushing an agenda y’know, like I’m clearly pointing out that you are. You’re definetely not trying to be objective or presenting a balanced view like an actual journalist would about the topic, that’s for sure.

    Many people have drawn comparisons to the debaucle that was the 90s and MK etc. And this whole debate is exactly the same retarded arguments from back then being reiterated only with sex and gender as a stand in. Just like MK it’s not gonna accomplish anything, you can’t cenzor an artform, only obnoxciously push your opinions at people until the debate dies down again and the topic loses it’s worth, just like with MK. Ironically you’re being far less progressive than the rest of us with your conservative views. Obviously video games have to be treated far differently from any other artform regarding this topic, cus videogames are for nerds and rapists after all.

    #50 2 months ago
  51. polygem

    @wildBoar
    so just swallow everything. don´t criticise anything, always say yes, never dare to express your opinion. that´s what you mean?

    #51 2 months ago
  52. matsuringo

    @polygem Yes I can compare that to the sexism debate; you telling me I can’t doesn’t make it any less valid. It takes more than playing video games with attractive females to change your entire attitude towards 50%+ the population of the world; it takes already being inclined to that behavior (due to the way you were raised, or just simply your natural preference, etc). No video game will change a normal, well adjusted person’s behavior, not because of violence, nor because of sexuality.

    This game promotes nothing more than playing a video game where the females look aesthetically pleasing. It’d be strange in an ideal environment such as this to place an unattractive character for any purpose. That isn’t to say that there cannot be and in fact are not games in which you can portray the complete range of human characteristics (both personality and aesthetics wise), it’d just be simply strange to pick a game such as this to do so.

    People (myself included) play this game because we’re hardwired to breed and therefore enjoy sex. It’s as simple as that. Breasts and posteriors are what I want to see in my entertainment. It’s never once changed the way I or anyone I’ve ever known has treated a woman and to act like it could makes you no better than someone blaming violence on games; it’s one in the same.

    #52 2 months ago
  53. Michael Ireland

    @wildBoar You’re so reactionary it’s bordering on a comic routine mate. There’s a difference between looking at an issue (as Dave is doing) and punching innocent people in the face (as Anita Sarkeesian is doing), and you’re choosing to make everything guilty by association.

    You’re criticising it because it’s about sexism, not because it’s actually bad in any way. You’ve made it clear in the past that you consider the entire topic a non issue.

    #53 2 months ago
  54. wildBoar

    @polygem I’m saying there’s no reason not to let people simply think what they want about these things unless you’ve got some weird idea it will damage society like Dave does.

    Criticize games on their own merits, not for what they aren’t and what they aren’t trying to be.

    #54 2 months ago
  55. polygem

    @matsuringo
    you might be educated enough to reflect all this and it definitely sounds like that but i do not think that everyone who is playing this game will be in this position. sexism is something that can really creep up from behind very easily and then plant itself into your mind. i believe that many teenagers will play this game as well. they wont be as reflected as you are. to kill someone would still be a huge hurdle, to look down at someone else because he/ she isn´t hot is very very easy. there is a difference. huge one.

    #55 2 months ago
  56. Dragon

    @Michael Ireland,
    “I would like to point out that long before you were a member here, I aired my distaste for the ultra violence seen in many western titles, and still do when a relevant article come up.”
    And what now? You don’t miss a single article regarding otaku culture. Why is it that you are MIA in south park, or every violent shooter thread?
    “still do when a relevant article come up”
    Nope. Never seen you in recent south park articles. Quite funny really. You seem to suggest you view south park with equal disdain, yet while you visit articles on Japanese games censorship holding the censorship flap over your head, you miss south park articles regarding that. I am very inclined to think that its only because one of them is from Japan, and other is from west.

    “But that doesn’t make the existence of an expanding fetishistic otaku culture okay.”
    Oh really? Its not okay for people to enjoy what they can, especially in matters as trivial as video games?
    Hey, again, never seen to criticise south park and game of throne loving crowd for their crass sense of humour and so on. Selective bias?

    #56 2 months ago
  57. Michael Ireland

    @matsuringo Depends on your definition of aesthetically pleasing

    I can’t speak for everyone of course, but half naked cartoon teenagers with back breaking breasts (or the more disturbing opposite, the loli) and eyes bigger than their hands don’t personally do it for me.

    These games aren’t the cause or the problem with the issue of course, but they are definitely a symptom of it.

    #57 2 months ago
  58. matsuringo

    @polygem I understand where you’re coming from, but you have to separate enjoying aesthetically pleasing women from degrading less attractive ones. Just because you can enjoy the sight of an attractive person, doesn’t automatically (even in a teenagers eye’s for instance) devalue a less attractive one.

    Now the value of less attractive people (not just women) is a societal problem at large that even I’m guilty of (you can bet if me and my mate are riding a train and we see a man or woman with a particularly strange face, we’re going to have a snicker about it when we get off), however I feel that if you end up devaluing people in a professional environment, you’re going to get sacked and quickly learn how life works.

    We need to let people live their own lives, even if that includes letting them find out the hard way that you can’t discredit a person because of their appearance. If that’s the way you conduct yourself, by all means go ahead, but it isn’t going to get you very far in anything important.

    #58 2 months ago
  59. Michael Ireland

    @Dragon Because nobody had posted an article on the subject. This article exists *specially* for the purpose of discussing the issue. This just happens to be the popular subject right now.

    I have posted in plenty of news stories about video game violence though. You’re just being selective with your memory because you want to criticise me instead of discussing the actual subject at hand.

    #59 2 months ago
  60. polygem

    @Dragon
    never contributing anything but picking fights, repeating sales numbers like a robot, staff ass kissing and teaming up with fellow brand loyalists.

    #60 2 months ago
  61. Gaiduku

    Great article Dave however I still think the west also has a ways to go in terms of promoting better female characters.

    Last year was great for women in games but I think it’s still important that both Elizabeth and Ellie weren’t the main protagonists in their respective games (ignoring DLC). They’re both fantastic characters but they also played second fiddle to a strong man who spent a lot of the game making sure they didn’t get killed. I recently had a look at my steam list and out of 41 games only 3 of them have a main female protagonist. This is ignoring games where you can chose (dragon age, elder scrolls etc) but it’s still pretty rubbish. Also one of those games is Portal 2 which….seeing as the main character doesn’t say anything… barely counts.

    Rummaging through my console collection only FFXIII and Beyond good and evil help increase the list to five. I don’t think I base my game purchasing on the gender of the main character….if I do I’m certainly not doing it consciously!! I believe the gaming industry is still worried about releasing games with female leads. It wouldn’t surprise me if these games simply don’t sell as well as games with male leads and that’s simply the reason why but. it’s definitely an issue the entire games industry needs to deal with.

    Also it’s worth mentioning that in the same year of Elizabeth, Ellie and the awesome new and improved Lara we also had GTA V. Despite being a fun game I really struggle with it due to its absolutely vile attitude to women. The strip club mini “game” is almost exactly the same as the section in Killer is Dead that you heavily criticised. Just instead of ogling at women you grope strippers whilst the bouncer isn’t looking until a bar fills up and they agree to have sex with you. It’s not only condoning the sexual assault of strippers but saying its a great way to get them to sleep with you!! My friends tell to not take it so seriously and like all of GTA its meant to be satirical but can someone explain to me what the hell this is supposed to satirising? Beyond that every other female character in the game is there to either look sexy or be the annoying Skyler White/Carmella Soprano figure. The guys at Rockstar probably think the Bechdel test is something you do when you make a cheese sauce.

    I just think that we (as in the Western gaming industry) still has a distance to go before we can take the moral high ground against Japan. Awesome article though :)

    #61 2 months ago
  62. Oh no its Colt

    I’m just surprised no one wrote “calm your tits” in the comments.

    #62 2 months ago
  63. Dragon

    @Michael Ireland,
    “Because nobody had posted an article on the subject.”
    There is censorship topic about south park. And many more regarding that. You miss them. That is true.
    And awaiting your response to this-
    “Its not okay for people to enjoy what they can, especially in matters as trivial as video games?”

    #63 2 months ago
  64. Michael Ireland

    @Dragon I never said they couldn’t.

    #64 2 months ago
  65. polygem

    @Gaiduku
    i totally agree about gta. while being satirical of course it does a terrible job to make that more clear, especially in it´s translated form. there are a lot of teenagers that just don´t get it, they take it seriously, especially what the game teaches them about women. i have discussed this with a lot of youngsters. i am a social worker. it is astonishing how the same content can be read and interpretated completely different by different readers. again, i am absolutely against censorship but devs and other creative artists have a responsibility and imo they should look at it much more.

    #65 2 months ago
  66. polygem

    @Oh no its Colt
    :)

    #66 2 months ago
  67. Johanz

    I’m dissapointed Dave that you didn’t follow up on the Quiet story. Because what you report here, in this story, isn’t correct information. I don’t want to comment on the sexism or such that is the subject matter of this article but the serious allegations of claiming someone made something erotic, more sexy, to sell more figures and encourage cosplay.

    A short summary here, read the last tweet by Kojima in particular;
    http://zero-elec.tumblr.com/post/66630951444/loltaku-since-i-cant-let-shit-go-here-are

    Now, I’m not defending Hideo Kojima, Senran Kagura or anything, I’m just saying that it is bad journalism to take something at face value and continue to report on it. Especially when it is serious allegations like this. Imagine how hurtful or damaging it could be if it was reported that someone was racist or whatever, and it is just bad journalism at work, it gets spread around. If it was like this case with Kojima, it would still get reported as fact.

    The site/twitter/journalist that originally posted the Quiet-story didn’t actually understand what Kojima said, misunderstood it and reported it as fact. Since it was a story abou sexism, it spread like wildfire and no one did any investigative reporting or actually understand what the original message was. Thus, now everyone believes, including you Dave, that Kojima did Quiet the way she is because he wanted to sell figures and make cosplay sexy.

    Now, I’m not defending Kojimas views on character design, Senran Kagura or anything, just that this sort of reporting and taking stuff at face value when it is a serious allegation towards a person is really bad game journalism, or rather, bad journalism in general.

    Now, I’m not attacking you as a person, I just want to highlight this kind of bad practice in gaming journalism since it is stuff like this that prevents gaming journalism from being taken seriously. I mean it in the broad sense.

    And concering the article, I really want to you for actually interviewing the game producer and taking these questions to the source. All too often the gaming press speculate about sexism all on their own without actually opening up a dialogue with the creators. This is the right way to talk about the subject matter, to involve the consumers, journalists and authors in the debate! That’s great stuff!

    #67 2 months ago
  68. wildBoar

    @Michael Ireland I’m criticizing it because it’s presenting the usual bog-standard narrow minded view on the subject, quite reactionary in itself. And yes, I do consider heterosexual sexuality a complete non-issue, if it’s in a game in which it doesn’t need to be, I consider that daft, whereas you would propably think it’s morally reprehensible for whatever reason I cannot imagine.

    I’m also extremely tired of these articles that have to scrutinize everything through a lense of gender and victimization, I propably do sound a bit too zealous at times, but I simply believe in liberalism and creative freedom over conservativism, and old fashioned views on morality.
    It’s porn, why can’t we just admit that and move on? Or it’s just pornographic. It’s nice to have niches, and it’s nice to have things that don’t appeal to everyone. It’s nice that everyone don’t agree on everything, that there needs to be some issue, or a witch hunt, I simply don’t agree. Sex is in itself not an issue.

    I’m really not on ball today tho, you’re right about that. Oh sweet sleep here I come.

    #68 2 months ago
  69. nrub

    Senran Kagura Burst was the top seller on the eshop in the US for awhile after it came out, and my Activity Log on my 3DS tells me I have 36 hours played with it. I’ve talked to other people who have played and enjoyed the series, and some of them are women. (You don’t have to be a lesbian to enjoy playing a game like Senran Kagura, just like you don’t have to be a gay male to enjoy a shirtless man-to-man fistfight with cheek-smooching in Metal Gear Solid 4.) I don’t know what gave the writer the idea that all women are fragile twigs that will fall apart from seeing cleavage (especially considering the writer is a male), but that’s simply not true if you would actually ask any female game hobbyists.

    I’d like to ask the writer if, one, he has even completed any of the Senran Kagura games to be able to judge them for himself (as this article makes it very clear he did not), and, two, how is it considered “discrimination” for women to simply enjoy playing a video game? What benefit would there be to take these fun games away from them? Would it make male Feminists like you feel like you’re more “tolerant” about women by taking away some of their hobbies they enjoy? How is that fair to actually harm the women who actually enjoy playing video games just to placate the people like you who didn’t buy the games in the first place?

    Also, I say the writer didn’t play the game because he clearly didn’t see how noble and inspiring the girls in Burst are. He didn’t mention Asuka training to become a powerful shinobi and doing it by her own two hands. He didn’t mention the “progressive and LGBT-friendly” lesbian-like relationship between Yagyuu and Hibari or Katsuragi and everyone that Feminists love to praise. He didn’t mention Mirai initially becoming a shinobi to take revenge on people who bullied her as a child, then eventually learning that her strength should be used responsibly, and then taking a bullet to protect her friends. He didn’t mention Hikage (sort-of) overcoming a traumatic childhood in order to become a (sort-of) functional member of society. He didn’t mention Yomi kindly donating all her money to the poor. He didn’t mention Hibari overcoming her doubt and anxiety to become a powerful shinobi. My point is that my completely ignored the fact that the world would be a better place if real-life girls took note of and were as noble and strong-willed as the girls from Senran Kagura. He simply judged them without playing the game because they had revealing clothing. Doesn’t Feminism teach you NOT to judge women for doing what they want with their bodies? Don’t they have those “slut-walks” for that purpose?

    #69 2 months ago
  70. PSOCecil

    You see, the main point of contention here is that these videogame characters are just that, videogame characters. It seems silly to think that because I enjoy playing Senran Kagura Burst, that I see women as ‘objects’ or some such. These aren’t real people, they’re fictional characters, far, far removed from real people.

    That said, I as pleasantly surprised with the visual novel segments in Senran Kagura Burst. They show that the characters are far more developed (no pun intended) than you might think. They all have deeper meanings, and thoughts behind their actions, than you’d expect for a title like this.

    I don’t recall where I read it, exactly, but one of the folks at XSeed, a woman in charge of writing/translating the English version of Burst, wrote a small article on her feelings on the game, how she thought it was rather stupid at first, but as she read and played more, she started respecting the game more and more.

    However, with all this said, I still feel the same way I do about all this. I just want my videogame news and whatnot, I’m tired of all of this “VIDEOGAMES ARE PUSHING THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN BACK A BILLION YEARS” nonsense.

    #70 2 months ago
  71. polygem

    @wildBoar
    i don´t want to pick a fight either but imo a game like this is conservative through and through. it represents old fashioned views about sexuality and genders in the boldest possible way. no pun intended.

    #71 2 months ago
  72. Patashnik

    @nrub This is a very valid point actually – there’s no discussion about the girls’ stories here – which are well rounded and have a great deal of positives.

    That may be like saying ‘but Playboy has some great articles!’ but discussing the Senran Kagura girls based entirely on how they look is an odd one, given the article’s overall stance…

    #72 2 months ago
  73. dizzygear

    @nrub It appears he does not even know Burst and Shinovi Versus are 2 completely different games with totally different gameplay, a different storyline and new characters so i strongly doubt he even played the games thus making it hard to take anything in this article seriously.

    @30 i heard Xseed is probably working on Shinovi Versus. But i already imported the Japanese version and platinumed it a while ago so i would not mind it too much if its digital only for the English version.

    #73 2 months ago
  74. wildBoar

    @polygem If it’s so old fashioned and cliched why should anyone suggest it’s somehow harmful or that we as mature adults can’t handle it? That is the conservative view, to suggest that objectifying the female body is somehow victimizing women or encouraging sexism ( just like GTA encourages violence I guess. ).
    The progressive view is to simply accept and allow these things to coexist with whatever moral values we want to have ourselves, because the notion that dumb shit like this is harmful or somehow influencing people is simply complete bullshit, and the actual old-fashioned, unmodern view. To suggest that all women are being victimized through some sexualization in a game is not only condescending to our society but to women as well.
    To suggest that there is any “issue” here at all, is the old fashioned view, in my opinion.

    Sorry about being ranty, I really appreciate the courteous tone though. =) You seem like someone who’s actually debating for the sake of the discussion which is a rare merit on this site I’m afraid.

    #74 2 months ago
  75. polygem

    @wildBoar
    hey, i said that i am against any shape or form of censorship. always was. i am not saying that this game has no right to exist. i am only criticising some issues i see with it.
    i totally allow these things to coexist but i am not wiling to leave things i don´t agree with uncommented. that´s all.

    #75 2 months ago
  76. polygem

    off playing arma 3 now. imho it´s just another miserable glorification of war but a damn fun one, so i am playing it anyway but i will have to live with the fact that my girlfriend constantly criticises me for that – being the pacifist green prick hippy i am….i have to live with that criticism :)

    it´s all just games but it´s good to think about your actions all the time and question them. you should still have some fun though and take everything with a smile.

    #76 2 months ago
  77. Dragon

    @dizzygear,
    Well, seems like you could help. How long do you think it would take for a person to read and understand spoken Japanese? I am thinking about (finally) learning some proper Japanese. Any good ideas on that?

    @IM,
    “Unfortunately, it also fully admits that a certain uncomfortable subset of Japanese culture is engrossed and fascinated by this sort of content, and that’s not a good thing.”
    “It’s a complex cultural problem though, that isn’t going to go away any time soon.”
    That says otherwise though.

    #77 2 months ago
  78. Michael Ireland

    @Dragon Just because I think it’s not a healthy thing doesn’t mean I’m going to tell people they can’t do it. People can do whatever the fuck they want to do with their lives so long as no actual people are getting hurt or affected by it in the process

    People can have different opinions on a subject without it being an agenda or vendetta, contrary to what most of the commentators in this article seem to think.

    #78 2 months ago
  79. Dragon

    “People can do whatever the fuck they want to do with their lives so long as no actual people are getting hurt or affected by it in the process.”
    +1

    That is it, really.

    #79 2 months ago
  80. nrub

    @Michael Ireland If having a sex drive is “not a healthy thing”, “not a good thing”, and a “cultural problem”, how come literally every species on Earth that reproduces sexually has one and would go extinct if they did not? This isn’t some obscure evolutionary vestigial function that only a couple species have we’re talking about, this is a feeling that is as important to a species’ survival as feeling hunger or pain. This is bred into the instincts of all sexually-reproducing live on the planet for a good reason. A species would go extinct if it had zero sex drive. How is it “unhealthy”?

    #80 2 months ago
  81. wildBoar

    @polygem Yeah, I wasn’t going after you btw, just speaking generelly. Fair criticism like that is only fair I suppose, it’s the “this is morally wrong” or “inexcusable” arguments that gets me. Because even if claiming otherwise, this all talk for the sake of cenzorship, only indirectly.

    I do wonder if this couldn’t be considered discrimination towards people who like hentai and the likes tho. As long as it’s legal, I don’t think popularising condescending bigoted attitudes toward various groups and people for their kinks and fetishes is necessary. Even if it doesn’t coincide with the authors idealized moral standards. If this was about tranny lovers, homosexuals or bronies or whatever, everyone would be losing their shit right about now.
    Dave is just lucky Hentai is still considered such a “creepy” “unhealthy” subgenre in the west, so he can continue to popularize those stereotypes.

    #81 2 months ago
  82. nrub

    @wildBoar Yeah, he is pretty obviously trying his best to paint the games as being “weird”. Notice how he points out that some of the girls are “15-18″. Now why would he say something like that, especially when the ages aren’t even in the English version of Burst? He’s obviously trying to imply that everyone who likes the game is a pedophile, but he’s omitting the fact that the game takes place in Japan, where the age of consent is 13. All of the girls are above the age of consent, but Dave is trying to write misleading disinformation to trick the reader to believe otherwise. (This is ignoring the fact that they’re all fictional characters and have no real-life ages to begin with, though.)

    #82 2 months ago
  83. dizzygear

    @Dragon I dont know Japanese. I can read Hiragana and Katakana though. The latter goes a long way in Japanese games since generic game terms are often written in Katakana and are easy enough to decipher so you can navigate menu’s and such.
    For example: コントローラ spells Ko-n-to-roo-ra which would be controller.

    Hiragana and Katakana are easy enough to learn with some daily practice on http://www.realkana.com/.
    Kanji on the other hand are a bloody nightmare. Allot of people swear Anki with a decent Kanji deck and daily practice are the way to go. The problem is that you still need to learn vocabulary and such after that.
    As for listening practice Rosetta Stone is pretty good despite people bashing it for some reason.

    I really need to get off my butt and start learning again myself. lol

    In case your wondering. Yes Shinovi Versus’s gameplay actually holds up well enough to enjoy the game without understanding much of the story. Its allot like Dynasty Warriors gameplay wise. The soundtrack is pretty good too.

    #83 2 months ago
  84. Michael Ireland

    @nrub I’m not talking about having a sex drive. I’m talking about having a sex drive geared towards the “admiration”‘ of deliberately underage girl put in exploitative and humiliating situations.

    #84 2 months ago
  85. Hcw87

    @84

    Exactly. It’s scary how many people actually defend this and say ”But the legal age in Japan is 13”.

    Do anyone honestly think that’s OK? If that doesn’t turn your insides, you’re a disgusting human being. What exactly do people get out of playing games like these? Please enlighten me.

    There is literally NO point to these games.

    #85 2 months ago
  86. Legendaryboss

    @Dave Cook See? What did i tell you? It happened, beyond 80+ comments.

    Discussion: Like the MGS 5 – Quiet – Debacle, the Deep Down – Females Issues debacle & this Senran-Kagura: sexualised sub-culture debacle: I will repeat my stance once again even though its unbecoming of me, stop giving/treating games with such real life moral standards and play them as is, which is virtual reality.

    #86 2 months ago
  87. Djoenz

    What a lame game lmao.

    #87 2 months ago
  88. Djoenz

    I thought everything for nintendo was kiddy. This isnt kiddy oh myyy… blushface.

    #88 2 months ago
  89. Dave Cook

    @nrub actually I AM playing it. The girls are tought fighters yes, but a few early things caught my eye. You go into the outfit menu and one of them says ‘please make me look cute’ while giggling. Another says she keeps her ninja scroll hidden between her breasts, to which her friend giggles and blushes. Again, some of them are 15.

    Aside from that, I like the combat, its proper old school hack n slash meets technicality, air juggles specials etc.

    I’ve never once said the game is shit, or that people are wrong for liking it, or japan should alter its culture.

    Im not sure where some of you are getting those ideas.

    #89 2 months ago
  90. Dave Cook

    @nrub im not trying to imply that people who like the game are paedos. At all.

    #90 2 months ago
  91. Djoenz

    These games have no fucking point like Saints Row 3. Its all bullshit. People that buy these games are lame. Damn nerds dont waste your money on things like this and please go out get some girls go live a little.

    #91 2 months ago
  92. Legendaryboss

    @Djoenz *Games like Saints Row 3 have no fucking point. Fixed!

    #92 2 months ago
  93. Dragon

    @dizzygear ,
    Thanks. No offence to any Japanese here, but whoever though it was a great idea to use 3 fucking scripts to write a language was a utter moron.
    And sorry to any Chinese here, but your script needs some cutting down, seriously. The creators there should really have had a long hard look at Latin and Brahmi scripts and learn to write without a million characters.
    Alas, the history cannot be changed. :P

    Anyway, my goal is the understand the story of games/animes in Japanese. Hopefully I could understand the speech and writing without going too much into kanji.

    #93 2 months ago
  94. Dragon

    @Djoenz,
    Why play video games at all? Playing real games is much more useful in real life, no?

    #94 2 months ago
  95. Djoenz

    @Dragon
    Why would you want to play this game?

    #95 2 months ago
  96. Djoenz

    I agree with Michael Ireland and Polygem its all about context. If the emphasis is on sex in games or in this case big boobs and nudity and what not just for the lulz of it, I see no fucking point to ever play this game.

    It’s a cheap tactic IMO. In this case chibi girls as well. Its a fetish. Thats why I never played DOA either. Big tits on the chars come on.

    I dont get a boner out of it, its cheap, lame and distracting. Saints Row 3 was all about smacking people with purple dildos..I swear that was the funniest thing to do so it seems judging by all the gameplay videos.

    Adding these things just to troll for the sake of it is pathetic. I admit I did it in San Andreas, but man games like these are embarrassing.

    People should grow up I guess.

    Everytime I played an online match on COD I hear so called grown ups swearing against underaged kids. Doesnt matter who started it you shouldnt swear back at underaged kids no wonder they all screwed up. No manners. Adults should be the better people. Be an example for the youth.

    This kid about 13 or so told me a story that one day he was walking with a female classmate and went to his house and had sex with her and I was like wth. I laughed about it at the time afterwards he said it was a joke, but man kids these days are messed up in the head.

    Media has created this mess. It will only be worse.

    #96 2 months ago
  97. PSOCecil

    @Dave Cook People are getting these ideas because people are used to articles and videos from the likes of Kotaku, Rock Paper Shotgun, and Anita Sarkeesian, attacking people who dare find enjoyment in stuff like this, and just attacking the videogame medium, and it’s fans, as a whole. People are expecting these types of articles to exist only to infuriate, not to bring an honest discussion.

    When people are approached in an angry, insulting, provoking way, they will react in an angry, insulting, and provoking manner. I’m just glad you didn’t lock comments on this article. That kind of thing is just embarrassing, and obvious clickbait. I don’t want to have to avoid VG24/7 like I do Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.

    #97 2 months ago
  98. dizzygear

    @Dragon
    4 if you count romaji. Japanese written in latin script. For some reason they like using random words written in that.
    The problem is that so many words sound the same they need Kanji and Katakana to keep them apart. Hence why they cant use purely Hiragana.

    Its seriously worth it to at least learn Katakana and Hiragana though. Its should not take more than a few weeks to learn those if you practice every day and makes browsing the Japanese PSN store a hell of a lot easier. It also comes in handy for playing simpler more arcadish games like Project Diva without a guide.

    #98 2 months ago
  99. nrub

    @Dave Cook So what? So what if some of the characters are 15, above their age of consent in the country the game was made? So what if they reference their breasts? So what if they sometimes wear swimsuits? You haven’t explained what’s wrong with this. You’re only talking out of knee-jerk reactions that have been instilled by the West’s genophobic and sex-negative culture. Your argument essentially boils down to “MUH CHILDREN” and “MUH CLEAVAGE”. It contains no actual substance. You haven’t said WHY this is so “problematic”. You’ve only pointed it out and whined about your gut reaction of thinking it’s gross and that your genophobic culture is superior to this dirty sex-positive Japanese culture.

    If the sex-positive culture of Japan is really so harmful, how come there is less sexual assault and crime in general in Japan than in America? After all, this is a country where you can buy child pornography mangas in convenience stores. This country untouched by Feminism should be Hell on Earth where murder and rape run rampant, right? But it’s not. If you’re right that there really is a problem with games like Senran Kagura, it should be reflected in the real-world Japan. Their rape rates should be through the roof if you’re right, but they’re not.

    #99 2 months ago
  100. Michael Ireland

    @nrub The age of consent in Japan isn’t 13. The country law has it at that age, but different areas of Japan has different laws of their own, and most dictate that its illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor. The laws are also getting stricter year on year, thankfully,

    #100 2 months ago
  101. Djoenz

    @nrub
    You are fucking dumb you know that. Go watch some massive documentaries or better yet go travel to asia and you will quickly find out that child prostitution is big business there. Children get kidnapped raped and drugged all the time there by the second.

    Your knowledge of the real life outside your bubble is pathetic.

    #101 2 months ago
  102. PSOCecil

    @Djoenz Neither of you posted any sources. And please, keep it civil, stop the namecalling.

    #102 2 months ago
  103. Michael Ireland

    @nrub And Japan is most definitely not “sex positive”. The country has numerous social problems relating to communication, expression and deep pesonal loneliness. Problems it is fully aware of and doesn’t deny.

    #103 2 months ago
  104. Djoenz

    @PSOCecil
    Why should I post resources for uninformed people?
    There is a magical thing called GOOGLE.

    Not only have I spoken to many people about this issue irl at work or wherever, I have also seen quite a few documentaries in my life. The underground can be sickening if only people educated themselves more other than focusing on games all the time.

    #104 2 months ago
  105. stalepie

    “It’s clear that Senran Kagura has not been designed to directly inflame or court controversy, and if you feel you’d like to play those games for a laugh then that is entirely at your discretion. I cannot and will not try to stop you, ”

    – except you are, because you’re writing for a gaming publication on the web in the hopes that less of these games come out or get sold.

    #105 2 months ago
  106. nrub

    @Hcw87 People get the same thing out of these videos games as anything else: fun. I’ve got 37 hours in Burst, and I can say it’s a pretty decent game. The gameplay is interesting, the music is surprisingly really good, and the visual novel sections are entertaining. It’s not a perfect game, but I definitely don’t regret buying it. Some people are saying that the sex appeal is immature and just for children, but how is sex immature in the first place? Immature children haven’t gone through puberty to be able to appreciate such things. Erotic games are for matured adults; you can’t get away with trying to shame fans of the game by saying they’re childish.

    Furthermore, I thought the low-brow sex appeal of the game was refreshing. In a video game industry currently obsessed with becoming “the Citizen Kayne of gaming” and “moving the medium passed a childish hobby into art”, it was really nice to see a game series that isn’t that pretentious and full of itself, a game series that isn’t “too good” to appreciate such a simple joy as a cute girl. If sex-negative Western culture and indoctrination has made you too intolerant and bitter to enjoy such pure and simple enjoyments in life, then you’re not the target audience of the game — you don’t just don’t get it, and that’s okay. There’s other games that might be more your style, and that’s fine, but don’t call people that do enjoy other kinds of games, and I quote, “a disgusting human being”.

    #106 2 months ago
  107. Michael Ireland

    @stalepie That is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard in forever.

    Someone can’t have a critical opinion anymore without they’re being some sort of agenda behind it anymore, apparently. To assume he’s posting this “in hopes” of the game selling less is a hilariously ludicrous suggestion. We should never post any sort of critique, ever, using that sort of logic.

    #107 2 months ago
  108. Michael Ireland

    @nrub I think we can safely say you have absolutely no idea what actually makes up current society, western or eastern.

    #108 2 months ago
  109. Hcw87

    @106

    ”Erotic games are for matured adults; you can’t get away with trying to shame fans of the game by saying they’re childish.”

    Erotic games are fine. Erotic games with children are NOT FINE. How the fuck do you not get that? It’s a game focused on stripping little girls naked. I cannot get how people can be OK with that. Why can’t they at least look like they’re of legal age in most countries (18+)?

    ” If sex-negative Western culture and indoctrination has made you too intolerant and bitter to enjoy such pure and simple enjoyments in life, then you’re not the target audience of the game — you don’t just don’t get it, and that’s okay.”

    Who ARE the target audience of this ”game”? You tell me that. And i’m completely fine by ”not getting” this game.

    #109 2 months ago
  110. Djoenz

    @Michael Ireland
    I am going to leave this discussion, because I am getting dumber by the minute. Sigh….

    #110 2 months ago
  111. nrub

    @Djoenz And that’s Senran Kagura’s fault? How much do you think Nintendo is trying to target the Nintendo 3DS at rapists and kidnappers? C’mon, man, there’s plenty of criminals in every country. There’s people who rape children in America, too. You can’t blame it all on video games. I bet you’d agree that violent video games don’t cause murder, but you’d turn around in an instant and say that erotic video games cause rape. (That said, you could have made a good point if you told me that having less reported rapes in Japan doesn’t necessarily mean there’s less actual rapes than in America, and I admit that much.)

    @Michael Ireland That’s completely true, but that’s not what I was referring to when I said “sex-positive”. Understand the context of what I was trying to say. Obviously there’s a lot more to summarizing an entire country’s view on sex than one compound word, but in terms of their willingness to show sexual content and nudity in media, I’d say it’s pretty tolerant. In other aspects of sexuality, there’s obviously more to it than just that.

    #111 2 months ago
  112. salarta

    Given the topic of the article, I really think I should say a few things from my limited perspective, some of which is information that it seems as if only I am likely to know. Or, at the very least, admit to knowing, given stigma associated with knowing it and how people tend to use it as an excuse to dismiss legitimate points on other topics.

    In comments to past articles on here, I’ve pointed out various bits and pieces about Japan’s increasingly poor treatment of women. I’ve pointed out how female characters like Jill Valentine and Aya Brea used to be respected as characters when they were created, only to be treated like sex objects, submissive pets and damsels in distress in more recent games. I’ve pointed out that some Japanese rail transport companies actually need to provide separate passenger cars for women so they could avoid the risk of groping (or at least, feel more comfortable) during travel. And, yes, the sex obsession is big enough that it’s certainly led to things like Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma getting a whole advertising campaign that revolves around the “manually jiggle female boobs” function, which included essentially pretend-boobs bolted to a wall for people to feel up out in the public.

    There’s also the absolutely crazy problem where pop idols might be expected to remain completely single because their fans value their “innocence,” and this is apparently considered such a terrible “crime” in Japan that a woman would be expected to shave her head in shame for “betraying” her fans, all for the “crime” of wanting to have a relationship. Some of this problem was already existent in the 90s, by the way; look at Perfect Blue for fiction inspired by these issues.

    There’s also the thriving hentai doujin market. That market is huge. There was a rumor, though I have yet to see it actually substantiated with evidence, that Raita Honjou, the artist that drew the concept art for Valkyria Chronicles, went back to drawing mainly porn specifically because it pays better.

    Akihabara, too, has become a strong reflection of the Japanese preoccupation for sex. Imagine if the U.S. had a location known popularly and internationally as a place where you can buy and sell porn. I’m not trying to say Akihabara is bad, I’m just trying to point out that you don’t see something like that outside Japan getting so much notoriety. There may be places you can go for stuff like that, but those places aren’t as known as Akihabara.

    And anime! There is still good anime being made, but whereas the good anime once was also the anime people knew best, and it became known for great story or philosophy aspects, a lot of the anime today is known primarily for boobs and bounce, e.g. High School of the Dead. I’ve seen big anime fans lament that such hypersexual content is so dominating the whole medium that it’s replaced the likes of Cowboy Bebop, Rurouni Kenshin, Ghost in the Shell, Serial Experiments Lain and more. Whatever the opinion of those shows, one must admit that they got most of their attention for reasons other than showing boobs.

    I mention all these things, but the fact of matters is, we have them in the United States too, and the interest in them is growing as well, and out of both sexes. The idea of hentai being the sole domain of perverted men isn’t really true. When you dig down, on top of yaoi as the most well-known of female hentai interests, I’ve also run into women that really do like things that I half-think just naming would be too much for a lot of people here to handle.

    But here’s, ultimately, where we differ. In the west, those perversions and kinks and fetishes are only realized with either original work or fan work, and anything that goes beyond basic sex tends to be a niche market. What’s more, a lot of the hentai made in the west still keeps the character’s personality in mind. Yes, there’s a lot that’s purely just cheesecake and doesn’t fit the characters at all, but the stuff people like most is the stuff that actually keeps in mind that, yeah, these are fictional characters, but they have personalities of their own too. And lastly, as much as people want to see certain things, by and large they won’t try to force it to fit into the games. There’s a division understood between canon and fanon/fanwork.

    Japan doesn’t have those aspects. Japanese companies are viewing and treating a lot of perversions and male sex fantasies as the way games and anime should be made because they see how much of a market there is for it in hentai. In almost all hentai and doujins they make, the character’s actual identity means absolutely nothing. A saintly loving mother figure can suddenly be the meanest bitch ever with no explanation. A good example: Hideki Kamiya saw doujins of Bayonetta and said he didn’t like them. He did NOT, as some people like to pretend, say he was against them just because they’re hentai. His problem with them was that they did not represent who Bayonetta was in any way whatsoever. In the game, Bayonetta was a saucy, tongue-in-cheek dominatrix type that relished in sex and sexual innuendo. But in most doujins put out in Japan, she’s a wilting flower that falls apart at the first suggestion of sex.

    In the west, we see these things but we still value the characters. In Japan, they seem to want those fantasies made into canon. It’s why certain directors are still employed, why great characters get dismissed or rewritten. We’ve also seen certain companies try to create a crack in western culture to make sexist content more accepted overseas.

    This is not the whole story. I’ve written a lot, but it’s just one of many, many angles. For example, a whole comment can be made on the Japanese social expectation of women being pure, innocent homemaker types, and how that differs greatly from western culture where women are actively fighting social stereotyping to encourage acceptance of variation.

    #112 2 months ago
  113. Michael Ireland

    @Hcw87 We can’t appreciate the “innocent purity” of Senran Kagura, obviously.

    Example given: http://files.planet3ds.net/2011/07/Nintendo-3DS-Senran-Kagura-Screenshots-113.jpg

    #113 2 months ago
  114. Michael Ireland

    @nrub No, they’re willing to show UNDERAGE nudity in a culture suffering from extreme loneliness and depression in a large portion of its population, something so prominent that it even has its own name.

    This stuff was not half as frequent an issue in Japanese media 20 / 30 years ago, and it’s become increasingly worse, because an entire generation has grown up thinking its acceptable, and they’re now the ones old enough to work in the industry. Even then it’s still a niche thing in Japan. Just a depressingly frequent one.

    #114 2 months ago
  115. stalepie

    @Michael Ireland Then he wants more of them? He’s writing this because he likes the sexualization of cartoon girls in japanese games? He’s hoping this creates controversy so that it sells more? What do you mean?

    #115 2 months ago
  116. Michael Ireland

    @stalepie I’m saying that just because someone has a critical opinion of something doesn’t mean its a malicious one. It simply means that one, one single individual, doesn’t like it.

    #116 2 months ago
  117. stalepie

    @Hcw87 Target age is 15 or so because by then girls have breasts and hips and are well into puberty. Boys that age are horny, as you probably were at that age, when you also were probably thinking about boobs and ass more than you do now.

    #117 2 months ago
  118. stalepie

    @Michael Ireland I don’t know what malicious means here.

    #118 2 months ago
  119. stalepie

    “I want women to be respected individuals in the games industry.”

    Maybe the Japanese artists and gamers respect the women for their nice bodies. They want to see how pretty they look naked.

    #119 2 months ago
  120. nrub

    @Hcw87 I could say that it’s not an erotic game with children, since they’re all above the age of consent in the Japan. I could say that it’s unreasonable to ask other countries to uphold themselves to the laws of different countries. I could say that the law isn’t a moral guideline. I could say that just because a game has teenagers in swimsuits in it doesn’t mean the game is telling you to go out and have sex with a teenager today. Those would all be perfectly valid responses.

    But I’m going to be bold and take my response a little step further. I’m not taking the easy way out here. I’m going to say that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having media sexualizing minors. To think so is purely and emotional reaction (i.e. MUH CHILDREN), not a logical reaction. There’s absolutely no direct harm brought by someone reading a manga of a child having sex, I think we can at least agree on that. A fictional character has no legal rights. But there’s also no reason to believe that a rational human being is going to go outside and have sex with a child because they read Lolita or played Senran Kagura. Humans are just not that vulnerable to suggestion — they can think for themselves. If you have evidence that shows otherwise, by all means, show it to me. There’s no conclusive evidence that proves you’re more likely to rape a child because you looked at child pornography.

    Really, I would think it would be the opposite. Keep in mind that sexual urges are just that — urges. If you can vent these urges by looking at child pornography on the internet, why would you have any reason to go out and have sex with a real child? After all, dramatized drawings of lolis are much cuter than real-life 3D children. And I’m not being a hypocrite by just assuming this — there is some evidence that suggests it may be true. There have been studies done. Here’s a few sources:

    http://www.springer.com/about+springer/media/springer+select?SGWID=0-11001-6-1042321-0
    http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/An_insight_into_child_porn
    https://falkvinge.net/2012/09/11/child-porn-laws-arent-as-bad-as-you-think-theyre-much-much-worse/

    In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with erotic games featuring children. Even if you want to say Senran Kagura is bad because it sexualizes children despite them being above the age of consent, you’re still wrong.

    #120 2 months ago
  121. salarta

    People, keep in mind when saying the girls are underage that the national age of consent in Japan is 13. ALSO keep in mind as a caveat to this that prefecture law overrides national law in this case, and many prefectures set their age of consent at 17. But that doesn’t mean all of them do. Some prefectures really do keep it at 13, meaning an adult could have sex with a 13 year old and it would not be a crime in those prefectures.

    It’s also important to keep sex fantasy in places such as the U.S. in mind too. Despite the overall U.S. law, there’s still a lot of people that have sex fantasies about teens and high school settings. The mainstream media tends to get away with this by saying the high school character is 17 or 18, with 17 accepted because it’s close enough to 18. For Japan, a prefecture where the age of consent is 17 essentially means their 16 is the U.S.’ 17.

    I’m in no way advocating for lowering age of consent or anything, I’m only trying to give perspective. Western laws may dictate that anything under 18 is underage, but that’s not what Japan’s laws say.

    #121 2 months ago
  122. Michael Ireland

    @nrub “there is nothing wrong with erotic games featuring children.”

    …..

    #122 2 months ago
  123. nrub

    @Michael Ireland That’s what I thought. As you can see, Micheal here cannot give a comeback to my argument. Not even one word. His post refuting my four paragraph argument with “…..” should be proof that his dislike of media showing sexualized minors is completely founded on emotion, not founded on logic. He can only quote me and remain silent in hopes that nobody will ask him to have to give a logical reason as to why he thinks media containing sexy teenagers is wrong, because he does not have a logical reason. He simply cannot answer my question of why a video game or book containing eroticized minors is morally wrong, and that’s because it’s not morally wrong.

    He dislikes such a thing not because it actually causes harm to anyone in anyway, but simply because he’s been indoctrinated by Political Correctness to associate sexualization with bad and never questioned it. Poor Micheal. Now that I’ve caused him to realize that fact, he is completely speechless, hence this post containing nothing but an overgrown ellipsis. Unfortunately for him, “…..” is not going to disprove my statement. A good try nonetheless, though.

    #123 2 months ago
  124. Djoenz

    @salarta
    First of all lets go back to the basic (In my country the Netherlands underaged = under 18 and age of consent is 16 here)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult
    We are not animals.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194
    The brain is pretty much fully developed at the age of 25 (although the brain is never ever fully developed since its continueously evolving)

    Law depicts 18 year and you’re suddenly an adult? IMO that’s flawed in so many reasons.
    Here we have a sub culture advocating underaged girls fighting eachother with big tits and ripping the cloths of eachother. Its too sexual.

    Anyone defending this just because it’s a game and then suddenly it’s ok is a retard. They can keep their shit in their own country.

    Their breasts are way too big overall and their cloths wouldnt come off in such a way even in girl fights.
    If they tried to make the girls somewhat older I might have said well whatever floats your boat you pervert…

    This is pathetic. People defending games like these.

    #124 2 months ago
  125. Michael Ireland

    @nrub My mind is genuinely blown right now.

    #125 2 months ago
  126. salarta

    @Djoenz Hold on here.

    I never once said I agree with the game and what it’s doing.

    But I’m also not going to act like a country’s laws have no bearing on perceptions in that country’s culture just because my views borne from my culture are different.

    As you said, humans don’t fully mature until 25. Realistically, nobody should be considered an adult until age 25, and therefore the age of consent should be 25. But are we going to have people say they’re not allowed to have sex until they’re 25 years old? I guarantee the vast majority of people you ask will say no. Why? Because of the culture. It has absolutely nothing to do with what’s ethically or morally appropriate, it has everything to do with the status quo.

    To us in our culture, the girls in the game are underage. To people that are part of Japanese culture, they could either be underage or perfectly capable of consenting to sex.

    By the way, I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that we sure as hell aren’t doing a good enough job of handling this whole thing in the west, or at least the United States. We may not be making games where we look at naked 15 or 16 years old for sex appeal purposes, but companies are most definitely marketing sex and sex appeal to girls even younger than 13. This game may be a problem when it comes to our culture, but we have problems right at home in the same vein that are even more pressing.

    In sum, I’m only “defending” the game (hint: I’m not) insofar as that the culture that spawned it involves laws that state these girls are perfectly capable of having sex consensually, and I’m not going to pretend that our laws are Japan’s laws. Does that make the game a good thing? Of course not. There are lots of things wrong with it, most of which would be wrong even if they were all 25 years old.

    #126 2 months ago
  127. nrub

    @Djoenz “Law depicts 18 year and you’re suddenly an adult? IMO that’s flawed in so many reasons.”

    Then maybe you should actually state them. You’re completely right in that 18 or 16 or even 13 is just an arbitrary number thought up by politicians that has no bearing on an individual’s actual maturity or adulthood. But so what? Maybe an 18-year old will have sex with someone and regret it later. Maybe she’ll get a tattoo and regret it later. Maybe she’ll do drugs and regret it later. Maybe she’ll do anything stupid and regret it later. You can make up what-if scenarios like this all day, but does that really mean the government should be in control of you and stop you from doing something if you might regret it and you’re not old enough? There has to be a point in time where you allow someone to take responsibility for their own fate. It’s not the government’s job to protect you from hurting yourself. It’s your own job. There has to be a point where the law releases responsibility from an individual and allows them to live their life the way they want to, even if they might regret it later. So why NOT 16? Even a 30-year old can have sex with someone and regret it, but does that mean we need to raise the age of consent to 30, too?

    “Here we have a sub culture advocating underaged girls fighting eachother with big tits and ripping the cloths of eachother. Its too sexual.”

    It’s not a sub-culture — it’s a video game series. It’s not advocating anything — just depicting it. That’s like saying American Psycho advocates you murdering people. There’s a difference between depicting and advocating. They’re not underaged — there’s no reason to ask Japanese people to follow the laws of a country they don’t live in. Yes, maybe if they want to also release the game in those countries, but that’s exactly what they did. The character bios in the English versions of Senran Kagura Burst have no ages listed in them. In the end, their ages can be anything you want because they’re not real people to begin with. They have no real ages. I can draw a stick figure and draw a note saying it’s a 12-year old naked girl, but does that actually make it child pornography?

    Also, whatever point you were trying to make about the “big tits” is moot because the best character in the game, Mirai, has tiny breasts.

    “Anyone defending this just because it’s a game and then suddenly it’s ok is a retard.”

    Hey, man, I’m defending this because it’s just a game, and I’m not mentally retarded. That’s pretty rude, not to mention a total ad homenim.

    “Their breasts are way too big overall and their cloths wouldnt come off in such a way even in girl fights.”

    How are their breasts “too big”? Are there not some girls who have big boobs in real-life? What’s wrong with that? And I know it doesn’t matter whether or not they clothes would come off like that in real-life since it’s only a fictional game, but they totally would. They’re shinobis, dude. Are you seriously saying that a katana couldn’t handle cutting through a Japanese school uniform? It’s not like they’re reinforced with Kevlar or something. You’d definitely end up with more than just cuts in your skirt if you tried to fight 50 ninjas at once in real-life.

    “If they tried to make the girls somewhat older I might have said well whatever floats your boat you pervert…”

    The way you say that makes me think you have some sort of prejudice against people who have sex drives. I think that’s obviously the real reason you’re so against this game, not because you played the game and formally judged it to be a bad game, but because you have unwarranted and unreasonable prejudices likely born from social stigmas and Political Correctness. That’s not a fair judgement of the game or its fans at all.

    #127 2 months ago
  128. Djoenz

    @nrub
    There is no reason to actually debate with you with your ridiculous posts and arguments.
    There are so many things wrong with your thought process it’s unbelievable.

    Sexualizing underaged girls is pathetic really. The male brain is so engineered to produce hormones (among other aspects) to have sexual urges to mate and reproduce itself also found in the prostate.

    Now the trick is to trigger these hormones and that is exactly what this Japanese pervert is doing.
    Any sane individual would never watch child porn. Big breasts or breasts in general triggers sexual reactions in the male brain. That is human nature. To put that in media is one thing, but to put that in games is a cheap tactic imo. Just because it’s a game doesnt mean it’s ok. That is no excuse.

    Now let’s pick your arguments one by one shall we.

    [I could say that it’s not an erotic game with children, since they’re all above the age of consent in the Japan.]

    Age of consent doesn’t mean shit. Even if a 16 old girl says fuck me I wouldn’t do it because her brain isn’t even that well developed to actually understand what she is actually giving up.

    This is purely lust. Sex is ok it is healthy but lust is an act of the devil. How can you possibly be genuinely romantically evolved with an underaged kid in any way without having deep conversations or interests? Perhaps if that girl has a very high IQ or the actual adult counterpart has a undeveloped decent brain this should never encounter. These relationships mostly involve sex and lust.

    [I could say that it’s unreasonable to ask other countries to uphold themselves to the laws of different countries.]
    We should always respect other people’s culture’s and laws, but that doesn’t mean we should blindly accept it. Humankind in general is faulty. No one is perfect. When that country however tries to sell their stuff we should perfectly be able to criticise it.

    [I could say that the law isn’t a moral guideline.]
    Without the law what would the morals and values be then? Without the law our children would be fedspooned whatever the schools could come up with. You are right it’s not a moral guideline, but the most important morals and values are written in law and thank God for that. Without it there would be only chaos.

    [I could say that just because a game has teenagers in swimsuits in it doesn’t mean the game is telling you to go out and have sex with a teenager today.]
    Yes you could say that. However this game has underaged girls with big breasts, short skirts and sexy bikini’s just for the sake of it. It triggers your male brain wether it’s conscious or subconscious. It does not matter if it’s cartoony or a game. Fact is your brain is something special that recognises patterns and definitely subliminal messages even though you don’t recognise it your brain will. So you could get aroused or not depending on your control. Fact is something triggered you to buy the game.

    [I’m going to say that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having media sexualizing minors.]
    Sexualizing women in general is bad, but minors most definitely. What the fuck are you smoking?

    [To think so is purely and emotional reaction (i.e. MUH CHILDREN), not a logical reaction. There’s absolutely no direct harm brought by someone reading a manga of a child having sex, I think we can at least agree on that. A fictional character has no legal rights.]
    It is not an emotional reaction. It is a logical reaction because why would anyone want to read a freaking manga of a child having sex in the first place? Putting ages aside if the girl is older but looks young males will be like it’s ok while accidently only fueling their fetish. They like young girls. Just because its a fictional character makes it ok? This shit shouldn’t be shown in any media except if it’s for a autobiography or drama story that tries to teach you something. That this is never ok. Again what the fuck are you on?

    [But there’s also no reason to believe that a rational human being is going to go outside and have sex with a child because they read Lolita or played Senran Kagura.]
    No but why would that person read those things or play this game in the first place? I can tell you it’s not for the wonderful characters and their explosive personalities. It’s purely for their features and assets (pun intended). If you can not understand the fact that this is purely for lust/fantasies then you should do more studies about the human brain. This teaches children nothing about women other than to objectify them.

    [Humans are just not that vulnerable to suggestion — they can think for themselves. If you have evidence that shows otherwise, by all means, show it to me. There’s no conclusive evidence that proves you’re more likely to rape a child because you looked at child pornography.]

    Ha although your last sentence here is correct somewhat, you do not know a lot of the human brain do you? Humans are very vulnerable to suggestions. You have no idea. Manipulation, brainwashing, subliminal messages. It is truly unbelievable how much you still have to learn.

    Now I am not a scientist but seriously this is basic stuff dude.

    How do you think many people are addicted to watching porn? I bet many serial (or killers) rapists are or were porn addicts. Addiction can become obsession. When the obsession strikes in it’s done. Your brain can evolve the wrong way due to circumstances or unhealthy surroundings.

    Now we have this modern technology and internet and things are more noticable. Youth are growing up the wrong way. It’s not about fighting, tits or ass or short skirts. Im going to stop right here cause I might derail.

    IN CONCLUSION YOU SHOULD READ MORE BOOKS AND EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE HUMAN BRAIN.
    WHILE YOU ARE AT IT GO FREAKING WATCH SOME DOCUMENTARIES.

    #128 2 months ago
  129. polygem

    @nrub#120:
    that was just a bs post. watching child pornography already is active – yes active – child abuse obviously because you need children who expose themselves for it. a videogame is different because you wont need real people to create the pornographic content. your conclusion that “there is nothing wrong with erotic games featuring children” though still is severley flawed and tbh disturbingly ignorant. there is a connection. i don´t know how that´s handled in your country but in germany, paedophiles can make a therapy, first thing they learn is that there IS a connection between their child pornography consumption and a child abuse (see above). a paedo must not be a sex monster raping every children on sight, most have a normal sexual drive only geared into the wrong direction, maybe that´s what you mean…but it doesn´t make ANY pornographical content featuring children (or animals) in it right. it´s always abusive, even if only virtual.

    #129 2 months ago
  130. Djoenz

    @salarta
    I totally agree and I wasn’t accusing you. I think we are exactly on the same level actually.

    #130 2 months ago
  131. Djoenz

    http://gematsu.com/2014/02/academy-girls-become-desserts-dekamori-senran-kagura

    #131 2 months ago
  132. Selderane

    The misandry men deal with isn’t sexual in nature, rather, they’re treated like a disposable commodity.

    No one bats an eye when a man is assaulted or killed, often violently, in a game. But a woman?

    I keenly remember the uproar that occurred when there was a whif of that in the latest Tomb Raider.

    So if you’re looking to men to be exploited like women are, you’re not going to find much to really plant your flag on because, frankly, men don’t care about being a sexual object.

    Men and women are different, and men are exploited differently.

    Abuse, torture, maim, or humiliate a man and no one bats an eye. Do the same to a woman and you get headlines.

    There’s your equivalent male exploitation.

    So, men, remember: You best not enjoy breasts, but you better be happy to take a wrench to the teeth and ask for seconds.

    #132 2 months ago
  133. doublescrub

    I cannot believe the amount of pedo hysteria going on in these comments right now. Every girl in this game has huge breasts, a large butt, and fully developed features. Sure, the number may say 15, but nobody in their right mind could possibly link these girls to child porn. They look nothing like children at all; it’s no different from real pornstars putting on schoolgirl outfits and pretending to be in highschool. The people who enjoy the sexual aspects of this game are attracted to fully developed females, and that doesn’t change just because the game says they’re younger than they look. No pedophile would enjoy the characters in this game, and it’s not going to trigger you to go look at minors. Why would it? These girls don’t look like minors at all.

    And if the number is all that matters, I guess you guys are fine with Nowi from Fire Emblem, right? I mean, she looks like a child, and she’s practically naked, but she’s a thousand years old, so it’s okay right?

    http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Nowi

    #133 2 months ago
  134. Dragon

    http://www.vg247.com/2014/02/27/republicans-propose-denying-tax-credits-to-makers-of-violent-video-games/

    Yeah, I agree. Lets cleanse this world of everything that feels even remotely wrong. I wonder why there are 5 comments there and 130+ here…

    Or, you can follow this-
    “People can do whatever the fuck they want to do with their lives so long as no actual people are getting hurt or affected by it in the process.”

    Tolerance-
    “the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behaviour that one does not necessarily agree with.”

    #134 2 months ago
  135. Telepathic.Geometry

    @Dave: Japan has a huge problem with sexism. This game is a minor symptom of the bigger problem. From a very early age, kids will be playing games, reading manga and watching anime where women are primarily sexual objects, trying to be cute and wondering what the boys think about them.

    Their gender role is very strongly imposed. Be cute. Smile. Don’t upset anyone.

    I could go on a long rant about the extent of sexism in Japan, but I don’t want to break the comments.

    In summary: Japan is massively sexist, so Japanese sexist games are hardly surprising.

    #135 2 months ago
  136. stalepie

    The trouble i have with this issue — how many articles has Dave Cook written on this kind of thing? — is that the sexualization he’s criticizing is no more absurd than all the other elements in the games. Like being a “badass hero” or a “master of stealth” (who hides in the shadows for 3 seconds and the computer opponent goes, “hmm? what was that? must have been a cat. Oh well.”)

    They’re just games. Even the walking movements in them aren’t realistic. Even the hair isn’t realistic. The voice acting isn’t even good acting usually, especially since it’s done in sound booths instead of on a stage or a set. I just find all the games very cartoonish. There is very real sexual abuse and trauma and rape and kidnapping, murders, very real crimes you could spend writing about. But you write about some games that 10 Japanese people play, who are probably in late middle school (8th grade or so). Who cares?

    Care about child kidnapping and sex trafficking or something.

    You gotta be crazy if you think the desire to draw or depict women sexually (?) or with voluptuous form is just going to go away or is unique to Japan. Hell, it sometimes seems LESS common in Japan because Japanese bodies are less curvy. The women have smaller breast sizes in reality, and narrower hips.

    You have the Venus figurines that were made in Europe. Why don’t you ask for its removal from museums? That can’t be art or an important artifact. It shows a woman with large breasts and wide hips (and little attention to detail on the face). Then you have the entire history of American comic books, of super hero comics.

    Why not campaign for this game to come to the 3DS virtual console? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1zVP021zlQ

    “The Wings of Madoola.” It’s a game made by cool white British dudes in 1986 who wanted to champion women’s rights.

    #136 2 months ago
  137. stalepie

    http://news.3yen.com/wp-content/images/male-or-female-otaku_350x.jpg

    ^ surely a top stud in Japan. Probably bangs twenty women a night.

    #137 2 months ago
  138. stalepie

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zjomE3spiIU/T83l6yxp3mI/AAAAAAAAR1w/4XlgvBpSmwA/s1600/%5BOver-Time%5D_Unofficial_Sentai_Akibaranger_-_05_%5BF874A59A%5D.mkv_snapshot_04.16_%5B2012.06.04_23.20.28%5D.jpg

    ^ obviously has no trouble getting girls

    #138 2 months ago
  139. stalepie

    http://officialchii24.deviantart.com/art/Otaku-Me-76632559

    #139 2 months ago
  140. Telepathic.Geometry

    If you wanna watch some porn, rub one out, then forget about it and get on with your life, that’s cool. You like chicks with big tits, or two girls at the same time, or whatever fantasy it might be, it’s all cool as long as you don’t let it warp your reality.

    The problem I have with this sort of thing – or for that matter movies/games/manga that can’t pass the Bechdel test – is that it supports and propagates the feeling that women are just sexual objects. I fact, what worries me more than this game, which is presumably age-restricted (right?), is the amount of anime and manga where women are always incredibly sexualized. Young kids just think that’s normal and they shouldn’t.

    I think people who think this is a-okay are welcome to their opinion, but they should consider whether they understand the difference between ‘sexy’ and ‘sexualized’. I think that that’s the key to this whole argument.

    #140 2 months ago
  141. doublescrub

    @Telepathic.Geometry

    Yeah, because that’s just what this thread needs. Ethnocentrism and gross generalizations.

    #141 2 months ago
  142. stalepie

    Maybe this is of interest?

    http://moesucks.com/2009/06/28/this-world-is-corrupt-fujoshi-moe/

    #142 2 months ago
  143. salarta

    @Selderane This is wrong.

    Misandry implies it’s women being hateful against men. Fact is, the things you cited are because of social expectations established by men, not women. Granted, women encourage it, but keep in mind they encourage it within a patriarchal society, where socially women have been expected to adhere to male expectations of them.

    Further, the reason women getting abused, killed, mutilated, etc is such a no-go zone comes from the lingering perception of women as victims and in many cases equivalent to children in terms of ability to protect themselves (“women and children first”). It’s not misandry; it’s past sexism that has suggested women are weaker and less capable than men playing out.

    Frankly, at this point I think Lara should’ve been raped after all in the latest “Tomb Raider.” Everyone already happily accepted turning Lara from a badass hero figure into a Hollywood horror film survivor girl, may as well complete the Bingo card of horror film style victimhood.

    Treatment of men in media isn’t the fault of women, it’s the fault of men. Even if it was the fault of women, that wouldn’t make the treatment of women in media acceptable any more than it’d be fine to murder men of you’re murdering women.

    @doublescrub Actually, what you just pointed out about Nowi is used by many people as a way to circumvent the lolicon physical age/age of consent issue. “She may look like she’s five years old, but she’s actually thousands of years old, so it’s totally okay!”

    @Telepathic.Geometry Finally someone else says what should be obvious. :) A woman being sexy is fine, every woman’s sole or primary identity being about how she has tits and they go bounce bounce is not fine.

    #143 2 months ago
  144. stalepie

    Maybe women like the male expectations of them.

    #144 2 months ago
  145. stalepie

    http://www.amazon.com/Console-Designer-PlayStation-System-Decals-4/dp/B00HE19J9G/ref=zg_bs_6427814011_90

    great skin! (non anime)

    #145 2 months ago
  146. doublescrub

    @salarta

    And I don’t agree with that argument. I feel that, when it comes to drawings, the way they are drawn is more important than the fluff around them. With that said, these characters have fuller figures than almost any women I know, they are completely developed. So to say that liking them is pedophilia, is to say that the number associated with their age is more important than the way they’re drawn. In that case, you would have to be fine with Nowi, because she’s not underage.

    I should add here that very few games I have played reduce women solely to T&A. Even something like Dead or Alive gives it’s female characters personalities, and abilities on par with their male counterparts. To deny them that, to say it doesn’t count because they’re sexy, is shallow at best.

    #146 2 months ago
  147. salarta

    @stalepie I’ve learned quite a bit by seeing how many women will happily and lovingly cosplay female characters from basically any game, no matter what the game implies about women. Cosplay of Quiet from MGS5? Got it. Cosplay of Naomi Hunter (noting since some see her as sexist)? Got it. Cosplay of 3rd Birthday version “Aya Brea?” Got it. Reboot “Lara Croft?” Got it.

    Entirely honestly, there are many times where I question why I care about treatment of almost all fictional women in any sense. I feel like a company could make a video game that’s the epitome of misogyny and there’d be women cosplaying to support it. I try to remember that a few women cosplaying something doesn’t make them representatives of their whole sex, but that’s hard to do when the loudest voices complaining about any elements of specific games are men, while women tend to let those very things pass by unquestioned. Makes it feel like women really don’t mind these things.

    @doublescrub Yeah, I’m not saying the excuse is justified, just pointing out that it’s used by a lot of people. Also not saying you thought I was trying to justify it, I know you’re simply responding to my point. :)

    #147 2 months ago
  148. doublescrub

    @salarta

    So what you’re saying is, there’s many people on both sides, and a whole lot in the middle who don’t really care, and whether or not something is sexist or misogynist isn’t written in stone. As such, there are many women who enjoy these things just as men do, and don’t see things the way you see them.

    I’m not sure why that would make you question anything, that seems like exactly how it should be, for any multi-faceted issue. Especially when we’re talking about something like video games, about entertainment. Unless you’re trying to say that you think articles like these speak for all, or even most of women. In which case, that is indeed an illusion that should be broken. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this stuff, of course, and they have the right to express those opinions.. But it’s dangerous to just assume that the majority agrees with you, especially when you’re basing it on the internet.

    #148 2 months ago
  149. stalepie

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81EKfwf6E3L._SL1500_.jpg

    Van Gogh :D

    Artistic like “Journey”

    #149 2 months ago
  150. polygem

    @doublescrub

    i cannot see any paedo hysteria here. just a freaking discussion. NOONE in this thread said that a game like this should be censored in any way. the article didn´t say that either.
    you guys should get that in your head first.

    my paedo reference was exclusively aimed at post #120 because of the direct comparison he made there. it needed clarification.

    i don´t think that this game is child pornography, not even slightly. i do not believe that this game is pornography at all. it´s just a game with teenage girls having weirdly large breasts. that´s it. sure. i don´t really mind that games like these exist but i think that they can have an impact on society – every interaction has – maybe only slighty, but i want to question it because….this game promotes a sexist view on women and i think it´s only fair to say and from a fans perspective, admit that. we can discuss from there…

    @dragon

    ^that was for you too. you seem to deny the fact that noone who is criticising this game wants to wipe it off the map. that´s the wrong conclusion again. try to listen more, less black and white.

    “People can do whatever the fuck they want to do with their lives so long as no actual people are getting hurt or affected by it in the process.”

    this is exactly how i live – this i realised as an early teenager with almost the exact same words in my head. i personally also add animals to it because i believe that they as well have a right to live unharmed by mankind.

    this credo does not mean that you are not allowed to openly criticise things that you believe are problematic. in fact, if you truly live by it you HAVE to do exactly that – all the time.

    #150 2 months ago
  151. polygem

    i just showed this to my girlfreind, a very warm-hearted person, attractive women with a distinct sense of justice.
    she literally freaked out saying that this is sexist through and through and that she can´t believe how anyone could deny that.
    opinions are opinions but as soon as other people are getting harmed it´s about more than just that. a game like this indirectly harms the perception of the woman in our society. it´s just crazy to deny that. everyone should realise that and discuss from there.

    #151 2 months ago
  152. polygem

    i just made a bruce lee like move towards my girlfriend and she countered: i can only accept this if you fight naked :) love that girl.

    #152 2 months ago
  153. doublescrub

    @polygem

    There are at least 3 people in here losing it over the age of the characters, and that’s who I was referring to. Not you. I don’t agree that these things have any impact on society, even the most negligible, and I also don’t feel this game is sexist, but it’s your right to think it does.

    The article may not promote censorship, but it does say that a game like this somehow pushes back against other strides that have been made, and I don’t agree with that. I also don’t like the general tone. “Well, you can enjoy it if you want, I can’t stop you, but it’s wrong and you should feel guilty for enjoying it, because it’s anti-progress and damaging.” Not a fan of that at all.

    #153 2 months ago
  154. polygem

    @doublescrub

    ok, i hear you. you don´t have to like that tone in the article – but you should accept it as a legitimate view on this topic.

    i personally see it pretty much exactly like that. imo someone who buys and plays it should refelect and be aware about what he or she promotes by doing so.

    this applies to more than just this game though. imo some violent shooters are very questionable as well because they glorify violence or wars. again, i don´t want that to go away per se.

    this is all just games and art, we should cool it down and realise that first, sure – but this stuff can have an impact on the real world society – it is just a reflection of the real world society in the end – and it´s good to sometimes question your own actions and consuming behaviour. that´s my whole point really.

    #154 2 months ago
  155. doublescrub

    @polygem

    I said I didn’t like it, not that’s he’s not allowed to hold that view. So long as he’s not actively motioning for censorship- which he’s not- he can think whatever he wants. On the other hand, you should acknowledge that people are well within their rights to dislike being chided over their choice in video games, whether you agree with them or not.

    #155 2 months ago
  156. polygem

    @doublescrub

    sure thing and i wouldn´t have a problem with my best friend picking this game up and enjoying the hell out of it, just like most of my friends eat meat while i am a vegetarian. i wouldn´t even bring these topics up myself…but if they are discussed, or people say that their view is unproblematic and i disagree, i share my personal view -that´s all.

    :)

    #156 2 months ago
  157. polygem

    another note: i just deactivated my adblock and a huge ad featuring a babe with a golden bikini armor and big boobs jumped into my face…

    that´s something this page has to look at, especially if you want to publish articles like this.

    you can´t criticise a game like this but at the same time accept that you earn some cash from an ad that has to be classified in the very same category as this game.

    that´s what i strongly, strongly believe. your every day actions do matter. even the small ones. you have to reflect them. always.

    #157 2 months ago
  158. doublescrub

    @polygem

    Nothing wrong with sharing your views at all, and if I implied that anywhere, my mistake. I appreciate how civil this has been, these discussions tend not to be.

    #158 2 months ago
  159. polygem

    @doublescrub
    i fully agree with that one for sure.

    #159 2 months ago
  160. CharlesLupula

    I don’t have any problem with this game and, at the same time, I think it’s great to see females taking a stronger role in the game industry. Here’s my big problem with people attacking this game: Why can’t we have both? Why do you want to take away the choices of the people who enjoy this sort of thing? It doesn’t effect you in any way, shape, or form. People do not look at Tomb Raider and then look at this and say, “Man, if only Lara’s top would disappear and be replaced by Chibi faces, it’d be a better game.”

    It’s two different audiences and I think there’s plenty of room for both. Only in our sad little industry do we want to constantly censor anything that offends us. The movie industry, on the other hand, has enough room for 12 Years a Slave and Porky’s.

    I want the videogame industry to be able to exercise that sort of creative freedom, without all the Puritans causing a storm.

    #160 2 months ago
  161. CharlesLupula

    @polygem And that’s the thing, when you talk about certain games you like to play being glorifications of war, I find that sort of thing infinitely more offensive than this, but I would never try to stop people from playing them or insist that they are somehow holding back progress just by their very existence. Play what you want to play and enjoy it.

    As I said, I want a world where both this and something deeper can exist, without anyone giving the devs shit for making either.

    #161 2 months ago
  162. polygem

    @CharlesLupula
    i do not want to stop people from playing this. not at all – and i think that i have made that very clear. i said that i think that a game like this promotes sexism and that someone who buys it should be aware of that and reflect about this and the impact it could have irl – the same rules apply for violent games and war glorifying shooters. i made that example about myself to make clear that i do not feel exclusively morally better in any way, shape or form.

    #162 2 months ago
  163. eishun

    @polygem saying this game promotes sexism is like saying games like cod or battlefield promotes war.

    no really, the game is niche for niche audience. It’s like those man’s tabloid containing sexy girls. You are not their target audience, don’t like it? don’t buy it, it isn’t meant to cater to you anyway.

    Sexism isn’t exists in gaming world, it’s just what “Games Journalist” use to fuel their click bait article, like this. Also they keep using those 50 % gamers are female misleading statistics [no, you can't count flappy birds and angry birds or farmville player as "Gamers"]. And then come stating they have been “Progressive” while in reality company and developer doesnt give a shit, it’s a business, money talks louder than whine.

    #163 2 months ago
  164. polygem

    @eishun
    a game like cod DOES promote war. of course it does. in big, fat, bold letters. i am not sure if you know this but some military shooters are even used (for training) and partly financially supported by the military. they are entertainment, sure but also huge recruitment ads – that´s no secret. again, i do not want to judge that – i am sure that a lot of supporters for the idea behind this can be found, i am not one of those but it´s another discussion. my point was that players should realise these things, so they can evaluate their own behaviour better and look at what they are supporting and what impact it can have irl. not only with games.
    again, i am not trying to point a finger at anyone who wants to play this game, like i said, i am not morally superior in any way but i think that saying that it doesn´t have an influence – is just denying the problem. stuff like this needs to be discussed, not forbidden, or censored but discussed, so things can improve from there, evolve. i think the moment that we do not question these things anymore, or people state that controversial topics do not need a discussion – we really have a problem.

    #164 2 months ago
  165. eishun

    @polygem they should realize what? WHAT? this game promotes sexism? how? are you saying porn also promotes sexism? it’s a fanservice game, intended to please people who play it, not everyone.

    if anything i would complain that this game is sexists too! no male playable charracter, hell there is only 3-5 NPC male character. What kind of sexism is this?

    no really, i can’t get your logic. People who buy this are teenage to mature people, and they probably have more sense than you to differentiate between fantasy and reality. what kind of “impact to real life” does this game do? turning people into rapist and pedophile? turning people into perverts? what the fuck do you even smoke to be that delusional?

    i’m getting sick with these SJW bullshit pushing into VIDEO GAMES, i don’t care about gay, lesbi, female character, whatever. I’m cool with it, but don’t you dare pushing your mindset and agenda to me.

    i feel like people who push SJW bullshit is mentally ill, their life is so miserable so they “feel” they need to blame it to something else. Why not bitch about books? movies? videos? those thing can also be sexist. And while you are at it, why not bitch about porn too?

    also read their interview, it’s obviously harassing the developer and pushing their agenda .[NO, THIS IS WRONG, YOU NEED TO DO THIS THIS AND THIS SO IT DOESN'T HURT OUR FEELING!]

    These constant click baiting article and pushing agenda interview only censor developer’s creativity. See how bad western game these days because they need to cater gays, lesbian, feminist. Franchise getting killed left and right. I really hope Eastern developer doesnt give a shit about these and keeps at it. Their game is far more better because they have more freedom in creativity when creating those games.

    P.S: screens in the article are from Senran Kagura VERSUS for PSVITA, the game that just got released is Senran Kagura BURST for 3DS. So yeah, the writer for this article is THAT dumb.

    #165 2 months ago
  166. polygem

    @eishun
    i think you should just read my comments properly. i don´t feel like having more to add to this discussion. i have a feeling that you didn´t really get what i tried to bring across here. it could also be me failing to deliver that message though of course but after reading my comments again right now, i think it´s clear enough really.

    i don´t think this is only click baiting btw – imho game journalism must become far, far more critical than it is today and the bad news i have to deliver to you is: it will be happening, it´s a natural process as a medium matures. i personally think that it´s about time. only then we will really see progress besides better looking lighting effects and shaders – and that brings me back to the root of my argument, that every interaction you make matters and has an actual influence on other peoples lifes. sometimes tiny, sometimes enormous. a videogame also is an interaction.

    #166 2 months ago
  167. polygem

    one more thing. porn isn´t sexist per se, some porn is of course, some isn´t. same goes for movies and books etc. you can´t generalize all this. i hope your question wasn´t meant to be serious.

    another note: if there would be males with huge cocks in this game, blushing while the female npc talks to them, fighting each other naked…then this game could get away with being a weird, cheesy, funny piece of art. the way it is presented right now it just is sexist – you really can´t get to any other conclusion here, i am sorry about that.

    SEXISM:
    1
    prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
    2
    behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

    #167 2 months ago
  168. polygem

    @polygem / edit
    if there would be males (…) TOO – of course

    #168 2 months ago
  169. eishun

    @polygem so..
    the game is sexist because it only have female character?
    the game is sexist because it’s only there to please male fans? [which it's intended to be]

    if that’s the case why dont complain about shoujo games? those game also the same as this game only reversed in term of gender.

    my point is, some product are created with specific audience. Will men buy a fashion magazine? or will women buy a car magazine? maybe, but their intended audience is specific gender.

    That’s not sexist. People argue all they want but these kind of games are niche and have a very specific niche audience. and there are games that is intended to please girls [shoujo games]

    why not complain to car magazine is sexists because they only post picture of sexy girls in a car or why nobody complain to fashion magazine that there is no male picture in it [on specific magazine]

    it’s not sexists, people just blowing this out of proportion to generate clickbait articles. Why did i even bother come to this garbage website. Also VG247 quite known for clickbaiting using SJW’s article. The problem is most game website now also using the same tactic to generate clicks.

    p.s: If you can’t get it yet, the game is created to please male player. it’s not sexists, it’s pandering to it’s fanbase. There are games out there that is exactly reversed of this game, nobody give a shit so why should you?

    #169 2 months ago
  170. polygem

    @eishun
    you just do not get the basic point. some car magazines might have a male target audience and there is nothing wrong with that but they do not reduce women on being sexy, cute chicks that fight naked just to please men. you cannot even slightly compare these two things. it also doesn´t matter if something is niche or not to evaluate if the content is sexist or not.
    if these car magazines you refered to show bikini girls posing in or on cars, then yes, it is sexist. sure is. am i saying this has to be censored, forbidden, burned? no i am not – i am just pointing out what it is. make your own conclusions, that´s fine – i only offered mine here.
    just relax, you can enjoy this game. all that i am saying is that it is based on sexist content and it very clearly just is – i do not really think that can even be discussed tbh – that goes by definition. you can still enjoy the damn game but you should be aware of what you are supporting with it.

    #170 2 months ago