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Bleszinski on Xbox One used block: big budget games & pre-owned cannot co-exist

Thursday, 13th June 2013 12:58 GMT By Dave Cook

Xbox One’s anti-used features have been condoned by former Epic Games designer Cliff Bleszinski on Twitter. The designer has stated that the high budgets required by triple-a games today cannot be recouped if used games are allowed to exist.

PS Lifestyle spotted Bleszinski’s tweets this morning, and they go as follows:

The man does have a point somewhat, as yes, used games to detract from a publisher’s income. However, is an anti-used policy on Xbox One the best way to combat the issue?

Let us know below.

Thanks OXM.

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77 Comments

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  1. G1GAHURTZ

    Spot on.

    #1 10 months ago
  2. monkeygourmet

    Another ‘shill’…

    These Triple AAA games have been rinsed and repeated over the last few years so much, there’s hardly any difference between them.

    COD has been using the same engine for ions, the last Gears was a cash in of the highest order… This guy is such an asshole.

    I’ll value his opinion more when he creates a game even a quarter as good as Mario Galaxy or Sword and Sworcery.

    #2 10 months ago
  3. vasek45

    Oh my god, why Bleszinski has to suck every time he says anything on any important topic.
    AAA-movies also take hundreds of people to complete and have comparable production+marketing budgets and yet rentals and used copies exist perfectly for them. And movie industry does not take the choice between itunes/netflix and physical rentals/used copies away from the consumers.
    Also despite the videogames still being not as popular as movies, the game copy costs 3-4 times more than the ticket. Which I think covers the difference.

    #3 10 months ago
  4. TheBlackHole

    “is an anti-used policy on Xbox One the best way to combat the issue?”

    Well, the alternative is to not have big-budget video games anymore. And frankly, who wants that? I love a good epic like AC, Skyrim or GTA.

    #4 10 months ago
  5. Bam007

    Keep in mind, he is on the sidelines. He is now just a regular gamer, like you and I. His points are valid and I applaud someone of his stature in the industry for speaking out.

    Obviously not one of the many ‘yes men’ who work at Microsoft.

    #5 10 months ago
  6. Clupula

    As soon as I saw his name, I figured he’d say something douchey.

    I wasn’t let down.

    #6 10 months ago
  7. TheBlackHole

    @3

    That’s an idiotic example. Movies have cinema, which is not tradeable.

    #7 10 months ago
  8. Joe Musashi

    I don’t think the argument is as black-and-white as what’s being made out by Mr. B.

    The games industry does face a problem in how it meets the expectations of the consumer whilst staying financially bouyant and not overly upsetting the consumer in the process. This is what it means to drive such an industry. If you fail then, well, you fail.

    JM

    #8 10 months ago
  9. Froseidon

    @2 Unreal Tournament and Gears of War are both really popular. And the recent GoW didn’t come from him, as he had left the studio…

    There will always be Triple A games that come out, the reason they feel so samey is because once one studio does one, a load of other studios try to follow its style after the original one becomes popular. TPS didn’t even seem popular until GoW1 hit the mother lode.

    #9 10 months ago
  10. G1GAHURTZ

    AAA-movies also take hundreds of people to complete and have comparable production+marketing budgets and yet rentals and used copies exist perfectly for them.

    Movies make their money in the cinema. Not from DVDs.

    #10 10 months ago
  11. monkeygourmet

    @4

    All those games you mentioned can be bought, rented, or exchanged in their current format. The scaling is already done as all we are seeing now is parity between the PC / PS4 & X1.

    The engines are all created, and for the first year or so, most releases will be coming to older consoles too, to maximise market saturation.

    #11 10 months ago
  12. Samoan Spider

    This unfortunately could be the problem we’re headed towards. If the pubs see the XBO as a way to protect their investments and the PS4 as the risk, then which do you think they will focus on. In turn the XBO gets a lot of exclusives, timed exclusives, pot-sweeteners and so on, attracting new buyers to the fold and making the devs/pubs more money. It could become self fulfilling!

    #12 10 months ago
  13. monkeygourmet

    @9

    Sorry, I wasn’t using Gears as it was linked to Cliffy, AC would have been a better example.

    #13 10 months ago
  14. Bomba Luigi

    Lower the Budget may sound silly, but its actual the Way Free Market works. There are lot of things, you can make the Price higher, or Lower in order to sell more for less and then made more Profit. Stuff like that.

    But taking out the Free of the Market, that really is silly.

    #14 10 months ago
  15. zme-ul

    why do people listen to him?! especially gaming media

    how about developers and publishers build good games so people would want to own it, not rent it or loan it from a friend

    how about they build a strong MP component so people will want to buy their copy to play with their friends

    no can do huh, blame it on resale ..

    indie games shouldn’t even make a profit according to his dumb logic

    #15 10 months ago
  16. McShifty1984

    The retail/rental/pre-owned model has existed for decades now. If it was so detrimental to video game development, how the hell did we find ourselves in a position to make games like gears of war in the first place?

    #16 10 months ago
  17. Malmer

    If game prices were lowered to start at say $40 instead of $60 but used games where blocked completely I would welcome that future with open arms. If they take away some, they have to give some.

    #17 10 months ago
  18. The_Red

    Well, then gamers like me can’t co-exist with said big budget games. God I can’t believe I used to think Cliff was one of the good guys. First he defended EA’s practices and now X1′s anti-consumer practices? (I know, he’s probably too lost to even care about anyone who’s not super rich like him).

    #18 10 months ago
  19. actuallyisnotafox

    until consoles have sales, until they see a drop from full retail price to half, then thats when ill accept this blocking policy, until then, screw you

    #19 10 months ago
  20. Clupula

    @12 – Won’t happen if the Xbone is behind and the attach rate to the PS4 is higher. That’s what will determine that. Nobody wants to be making exclusives for the number two system.

    #20 10 months ago
  21. Malmer

    Also worth noting is that the Xbox One does not block used games. Repeating that it does will not make it true.

    #21 10 months ago
  22. Mike W

    Yea that’s great and all Cliff, but it’s not right to take away someone’s right to buy a used game.

    #22 10 months ago
  23. merrc

    I swear this guy’s is the biggest douche. Been following him for some time, and his tweets are so biased, and he glorifies the always online model since he’s “Not broke.”

    #23 10 months ago
  24. Malmer

    How does a game become “used” now anyways? There are no manuals, no extras anymore. So the only thing that gets “used” is the DVD-case. Everything else is just a license for a game that will be copied to the harddrive. For the PS4 the license authentication is on the bluray, for Xbox it is in the cloud. But there really is nothing that gets used here.

    #24 10 months ago
  25. orakaa

    This guy is just ridiculously stupid.
    Years after years gaming has become a pure business:
    - more games being produced every year
    - bigger budgets

    The thing is, publishers would like us to pay more and more, which is why they encourage the production of more games per year. Which is why the market has been flooded. Up to a point where, 6 months after a release, the game prices are halved or even lower. And I’m not talking about second hand market but brand new games.

    The gamers (consumers) wallets are not getting bigger. There’s a limit to what amount they can pay for their hobby. Which is precisely why second-hand is useful: to get some money out of unused or shitty games to FUND the new purchases.
    Does he REALLY think people will buy a new FIFA each year if they had to pay full price and couldn’t sell their previous version, now rendered useless (servers closed, etc.)? If so, this guy is completely delusional and disconnected from reality. Again, gamers don’t have a magical wallet with infinite money.

    #25 10 months ago
  26. zinc

    The quickest way to stagnate the market would be to remove 2nd hand sales & the ability to lend/trade.

    Why would I risk my hard earned cash on a unknown new triple A IP, that could be shite, knowing i’ll be stuck with it forever?

    Then theirs the fact of how much you enjoy your $60 game. How often is one play-through enough? Feeling the need for multi-play-throughs to get your moneys worth, sucks balls frankly.

    #26 10 months ago
  27. Fin

    I agree with the principle (game revenue needs to go up), but locking out used games just seems to anger the consumer base.

    So, instead, you get DLC, F2P, etcetc.

    Costs of games go up with inflation, gamers can’t keep saying “I want exactly what I’ve always had, but better, for the same price”.

    #27 10 months ago
  28. TrickyAudio

    Maybe we need a few less ‘Triple A’ titles? Especially ones that turn out to be utter shit. Some of my fav games this gen have been PSN and XBLA titles. Just sayin…

    #28 10 months ago
  29. Max Payne

    I love how he said: ”Assasins Creed games are made by thousands of devs.”
    Maybe because its out every freaking year ?

    #29 10 months ago
  30. TrickyAudio

    ^ +1

    #30 10 months ago
  31. manamana

    AAA my ass! Yearly iterations of the same old is what it’s at. Miyamoto explained perfectly n another thread how you produce games, that are long lasting. But of course it’s the gamers fault.

    #31 10 months ago
  32. TheBlackHole

    “The gamers (consumers) wallets are not getting bigger”

    And yet they are.

    Inflation suggests that the average expendable income is an order of magnitude higher (in real terms) than it was in, let’s say, 1990, but games have mostly stayed around the same (or even lower) RRPs.

    In this sense, games have never been cheaper. The only way this has been possible to maintain is through the expansion of the consumer base for games overall.

    Now that mobile gaming is making it the norm to expect a lot of game for free, it’s no wonder the larger publishers are struggling to justify spending huge budgets on games (especially new IP) at full $60 price tags, when it appears that more players are moving to buy second hand or, worse, not buying at all.

    We are to blame for DLC, add ons, Free 2 Play in app purchases and microtransactions. We avoided buying games for as long as possible, and now we wonder why pubs decide to find other ways to monetise us.

    If I noticed people weren’t buying my game but getting it free, by whatever means, or buying second hand, I’d also be tempted to go F2P and charge for incremental upgrades.

    #32 10 months ago
  33. harr0w

    Well its going to go one of two ways I think the used game market Carrys on in the state it is. The Dev costs for the new generation games will continue to grow until like last generation the devs skill of optimising there SDK’s and cost plateau.

    In the mean time the price of games go up with there second hand value staying the same, causing the consumers to stop selling them because of the 0 return there getting and maybe cutting back on the number of new titles bought because there £70 £80 quid at retail. Resulting in them both losing and worse yet the gamer losing because less titles are released DRM is 100% enforced and used games cease to exsist followed by retailers closing and people losing there jobs.

    The other scenario is publishers do put a small fee for selling there games on to the retailer second hand. Retailers then have to put more marketing and emphasis on selling new titles. Dev costs remain normal (well as normal as the next gen will provide) giving the gamer better quality games more content and more add ons at better value and there is still a second hand market just with bit more give and take.

    And F2P is not the fucking answer look at the cost of the content in warframe (PC) I love the game but I will not be spending six times the price of one game to receive the content that onky one would provide.

    #33 10 months ago
  34. hives

    So what? Just stop developing games every year. You won’t have have to pay thousands of devs. There are many studios that do 1 game per 3-4 years and they are doing absolutely fine (CD Projekt for example).

    #34 10 months ago
  35. Bomba Luigi

    I really wonder when they start to search for faults by themselfs when its not working out like calculatet it. Look at these “oh my god we only sold 3-4 Million Units in the First Month, thats way to bad” shit we saw from Publisher. Millions of People wantet your Product in this short Time, thats good. You can make Profit with that, because other can. It is Possible.

    Start looking in the Mirror when something goes wrong and stop blaming everybody else. I learned that when I was about 3 Years old, its Time guys like him learn this too.

    #35 10 months ago
  36. zinc

    I blame Call of Duty!!

    *shakes fist*

    Cuuuurrrrrssseeee Yoooooouuuuuu!!

    #36 10 months ago
  37. Gheritt White

    Lowering game budgets is a reasonable course of action, so long as people are prepared to have 6 hour experiences become the norm.

    Also, yearly production cycles actually brings the cost of making games down, as they reach the market quicker.

    it’s the 4 – 6 year dev cycles that are truly unaffordable.

    #37 10 months ago
  38. Samoan Spider

    @20 Aye, but say its Xmas and kids are tugging at their parents arm, which will they buy? I’m not talking this year, I’m talking next. That’s what I mean. The XBO will sell and we all know it. Hell I might get one eventually if we see a price drop. My point is, if both systems sell pretty well and the pubs see the XBO as a safer bet because they’ve earnt a years worth of money from the renting and used games malarkey, I think we’ll see the focus head in MS’ direction. When it does, just by virtue of having more games people want to play, it’ll sell better.
    I’m not saying its prophecy, just consider it an alternate theory to the ‘death of MS’ that some shitehawks are spouting.

    #38 10 months ago
  39. harr0w

    #34 I don’t think devs and publishers would mind that. But people who want a second hand games market would because if every dev took that approach the retailer would eventually collapse and everything would go digital. Which would be fine by me but not others

    But the devs and publishers would then start looking at there returns from these prolonged dev cycles to see if the return is viable which as stated above wouldn’t work because not everyone wants to play the next halo, cod or switcher

    It could very well be something we may have to bite the bullet on we will find out soon enough.

    #39 10 months ago
  40. absolutezero

    Now stop me here if I sound fucking insane but cut the marketing budget?

    Take a look at some of the ludicrous shit set up at E3, none of that was cheap and now your asking me as a normal customer to give a fucking shit about used games? Oh no the poor publishers can’t afford to make games anymore yet they can create a full size mech from Titanfall?

    Start working with us instead of against us and people actually might start to show a degree of empathy. Right now it feels as if your begging with one hand and spaffing money up the wall with the other.

    See Square, see THQ.

    #40 10 months ago
  41. harr0w

    #40 great point we only need one trade show a year sites like VG247, ign, rock paper shotgun etc give us our daily bread. Marketing could also in part be cut because after all what is the purpose of these sites otherwise, well apart from damn good opinion pieces, reviews & news(VG247;) )
    Basically there are others that can do the leg work for these games without the publishers going crazy with cash.

    #41 10 months ago
  42. SplatteredHouse

    “Those of you telling me “then just lower game budgets” do understand how silly you sound, right?”

    Any less silly than the person implying that gaming should somehow stand exempt from any need to operate within sustainable means?

    “The man does have a point somewhat, as yes, used games to detract from a publisher’s income.”

    While there’s no wild data on it at International scale, current assessment http://gamasutra.com/view/news/193202/No_used_games_means_lower_profits_for_game_makers_Unless.php has it that eliminating the used games market (and opportunity for consumers), in the end, would result in a ten-percent decline in the gaming industry’s wealth. If that’s accepted, what point does Cliff have?

    The way out of that, according to the study, would be to drop games prices 33%, which it’s said would result in an eighteen percent upswing. But, that would be something publishers might very well oppose.

    “The numbers do NOT work people.”
    The numbers being? I mean, that’s a great blanket statement. attention-grabbing. But, it also gives us very little to understand the point of view (that Microsoft kool-aid strikes again?), and Cliff isn’t a publisher, but a designer.

    #42 10 months ago
  43. KAP

    Mr B has good points, but I assure you he isn’t talking on my behalf, I love that Sony isn’t crumbling and supporting core gamers or those without or lacking Internet access.

    Microsoft keep your Xbox One.

    I wonder what Cliffy B would say to Don Matrik quote about stick with 360 if you don’t have Internet access… smh

    #43 10 months ago
  44. foofly

    Why is reducing game budgets “silly”? If the market cannot support the massive games growing at the current rate then making smaller games is very much an option. Is reducing access for consumers really the answer?

    #44 10 months ago
  45. naffgeek

    I bet GTA V doesn’t suffer much from the used game industry.

    What did GTA4 sell? 12-15million units….more!!

    I think there is a lot more to this than how simple he is making it sound.

    agree with @40 too, no one knows how to blow budget better than the marketing department.

    #45 10 months ago
  46. Just-Joe

    How about make a game that doesn’t suck and is worth keeping?

    #46 10 months ago
  47. skapunkmetalskater

    1. Keep upping the price of retail videogames and people can’t afford to buy them brand new so they need a second hand/preowned option

    2. Did I dream the ridiculous demand and queues for AAA titles like GTA and Call of Duty? When they make a popular/good title people go out and buy it. It’s not like they’re struggling to make any money back off it.

    People do buy games. If you go spend a crapload of money making a crap title then don’t expect people to fork out their money for it. Gamers are investing in something they wanna play, not just buy because it’s the latest AAA title.

    I buy titles like FIFA and COD around launch day, because I wanna play ‘em. That’s my cup of tea so I will. Whether they’re classed as epic, good, crap or whatever. Once a year or two I have no quarrel dropping some notes on a new title.

    But are they expecting kids to buy a new £50/$60 title every month or two?

    Consumers choose to invest their hard earned money in a title they want and MAY feel like purchasing a title they’re half-interested in, at half the retail price via a second hand purchase. That’s how the economy works. You buy, you own. You can choose to sell on if you wish.

    #47 10 months ago
  48. Bomba Luigi

    Or, another Silly Idea: When you make Profit with a Game, take that Profit, and that Profit alone to make a new one. It works.

    If you wanna risk somethin on it you can put some addition money to it. Maybe it not works, but thats why its the Risky way.

    #48 10 months ago
  49. MadFlavour

    Sounds like a win win situation.

    His big budget games are shite.

    I can happily live without them.

    #49 10 months ago
  50. MadFlavour

    Every game wants to have COD sales, so they think if we spend enough we’ll get there. Then when the game sells three million copies, they don’t even break even they use used games as an excuse.

    Just because I will play a pre owned game for four pound, doesn’t mean if the preowned option isn’t available I’ll pay £45.

    #50 10 months ago
  51. polygem

    http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/12/miyamoto-explains-long-development-cycles-isnt-concerned-with-used-games-financials/#comment-495484

    miyamotos take on this is much more my cup of tea. this is an honest approach while cliffy is a selfish liar. yeah, he is.

    i think it´s a plain lie that cliffy tries to sell us here. it´s pr brainwash at it´s finest and it makes me puke. cannot believe some people are even buying into that shit.

    you can cut dev costs. look at what cliffy earns, look at the cut the pubs make, you can adjust some screws here and there, there´s no way i will believe you cannot cut dev costs. they´be been blowing out of porportion for years anyway, not only because of bigger teams etc. it also became one of the most overpayed fields in business in general, especially in the higher positions. cliffy just wants to keep it like that and that´s what he´s basically saying. he´s not honest and i do not have respect for that at all.

    @26: +1!
    i 100% agree with that.

    make better games, games people want to keep, price them fair, let people trade them in if they still didn´t like them, maybe the next guy falls in love with it and will buy other games from you…but don´t blame the second hand market for being responsible of killing gaming. it´s just such a big fat nasty lie.

    my advice to you cliffy: get real again.

    #51 10 months ago
  52. karma

    Well thats just bullshit. When a game fails (almost always because its a crap idea or been milked too often) yes the sales go down. Not the fault of gamers that they are not interested, or want to hold on to a bag of shite. As Shigeru Miyamoto said recently, Nintendo were never worried about used games because they always make sure to develop games that players want to hold onto.

    I’ve disliked Cliff ever since he became prominent in the business and made a name for himself by stooging his way to the top. Smart guy, but with clearly selfish motives. He’s brought nothing worthwhile to the industry and in fact has infected some of my favourite studios with his “greed is all that matters” philosophy.

    Go hang out with you dudebro mates Cliff and talk down to them. I’m having none of it.

    For those devs that don’t have new great ideas, then stop including bolt on coop modes and Multiplayer that your games just don’t need. Get rid of all that unnecessary clutter and features like DRM and exclusive pre-order contents and you’ll reduce the costs of development significantly.

    Thank god for indie. Devs like Cliff will be forced out of the industry hopefully.

    #52 10 months ago
  53. Stephany Nunneley

    So legitimate question here: what is the difference between renting a film and a game? Is there a reason game rentals are decried so much yet you never hear of movie companies complaining? Is there some sort of deal Blockbuster, etc have with movie distribution companies that game publishers do not? I mean – movies can cost in upwards of $100 million. Much more than games and granted a DVD is $19.99 most of the time compared to a $60 game. So if it is a price issue – it does not compute for me. I just want to know what the big fat hairy deal is, really.

    #53 10 months ago
  54. zinc

    Basically Cliffy, if you wanna blame pirates for the decline of gaming. Feel free.

    But if you want to start blaming paying customers, who once or twice trade-in a game… Well then your a twat.

    #54 10 months ago
  55. salarta

    Ah, typical Bleszinski. Saying dumb things that are born from the same greed-based mentality of big corporations.

    If games with high budgets for game development and marketing can’t exist while used and rental games exist, then games and marketing shouldn’t have high budgets. End of story. The film industry can survive with huge budgets AND the existence of used and rental copies of films, but if these games with big budgets really can’t survive such a situation, then games with big budgets shouldn’t exist. Nothing should ever get in the way of accessibility, and the kind of flashiness that requires such a high budget isn’t as important as actual substance.

    But really, “zomg used games need to be killed off” is just an excuse for companies that expect huge payoffs from projects to place the blame somewhere other than themselves. It’s one of many asinine excuses in the age where quality is sacrificed on an altar of greed in this industry. First it was pirating, a scapegoat that’s been around nearly as long as the industry itself. Then, it was used games, because these corporations want any excuse they can get to force people to have to pay exactly $40-60 every time they buy a game no matter how long it’s been. Most recently, it’s been “console volatility,” blaming the consoles for supposedly being too risky compared to the internet and mobile platforms. But when these people talk, to them it is NEVER a problem of the games of these companies just flat out sucking, or the company line or actions being insulting or anti-consumer. It “has” to be the fault of everyone and everything but themselves.

    #55 10 months ago
  56. Clupula

    I’ve always seen Cliffy as the Dane Cook of videogame developers.

    #56 10 months ago
  57. CyberMarco

    Publishers overestimate their necessity

    http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good–256227.phtml

    #57 10 months ago
  58. DeVitowned

    @32
    In “inflation terms,” perhaps gaming isn’t getting more expensive, BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE FUCKING WORLD IS! Gas, food, insurance costs, internet costs and necessities. You know, that thing called “standard of living” is skyrocketting, and our salaries aren’t increasing in a way that matches the rising costs. Therefore, less money for the hobby.

    The industry is going to have to adapt to this. Flooding the market with AAA clones that bomb because they lack innovation and don’t extend value to the consumer is not going to save the industry. Rental and used games have always existed. It’s necessary for many people to continue investing in the hobby.

    #58 10 months ago
  59. fihar

    @Steph
    The thing is Steph, blockbuster movies make most of their income from ticket sales, not DVDs.
    They still do make money off DVDs and Blu-rays, but they don’t rely on them as much as they do on ticket sales.
    While videogames have one and only one source of income.

    Movies and games are incomparable in my opinion.

    #59 10 months ago
  60. polygem

    @CyberMarco: thanks a lot for the link. i fully agree with him. i am beginning to really feel disgusted by most gaming trends these days…it´s really sad.

    #60 10 months ago
  61. CycloneFox

    So Bleszinski is one of those too, huh… I didn’t think so.

    Without a large wall of text, this problem can be described in one term:
    ‘naive fallacy’.

    The publishers read 2 million accounts playing their game while only 1 million bought it, concluding they would have lost 1 million sold copys because of the used games. But that thought is complete bullshit. Alot of the gamers would never have bought the game in the first place if they didn’t get it as cheap just weeks after the release, but after one year when there are alot of other newer games. Another percentage wouldn’t have bought the game if they didn’t see the possibility of selling it, if it sucked.

    #61 10 months ago
  62. DeVitowned

    @57 +infinity
    Well written commentary from Sterling.

    #62 10 months ago
  63. Belmont

    Big Budget titles and pre-owned have existed alongside each other very well,for many years.
    AND there is a good point on how the movie industry pours 200 million into a movie and is alive and kicking. They have the same used market and they don’t have DLC and another “outfit” for the hero they can sell as DLC.

    It is interesting how every other former Micro developer is pouring effort into saving One !

    #63 10 months ago
  64. hitnrun

    He’s wrong – manifestly, and observably – but even if he was right, I think CliffyB would be surprised with which side would win that dichotomy.

    Used games keep consumers in the market who go on to buy new. Without used sales, you don’t have more money for the devs and publishers; you have fewer gamers.

    For the record, I was a sneering grognard in 2008 who only bought a 360 to play XBLA games like Mega Man 9. I picked up Gears of War used from half.com – feeling dirty as I did so, because Gears of War – and ended up buying the two sequels new. Same thing with Halo.

    #64 10 months ago
  65. mightyhokie

    So many of you people are ridiculous.

    Yeah, no doubt you know how the gaming industry, game creation, and the economics of creating a $100M game better than Cliff Bleszinski.

    First of all, Microsoft is not charging for used games. They are allowing the publisher to charge if they want, which honestly they should but it needs to be something the market will bear. A developer sells a million games and two million people play it, one million people have paid NOTHING to the actual people who crated the damn game in the first place. It may be true that not all of those extra million people wouldn’t have bought the game at $60, but most of them would probably pay $3 for a license to play it. But regardless, my point is that the publishers are losing a lot of money out of this, and great developers are going out of business all the time because of it.

    The companies who actually conceive, create, market, and deliver this product certainly know what is going on better than…ummm…I would say…100% of you guys blasting them for it!

    Hating on CliffyB is one thing. saying he doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about is another. He does. he has been there and done that.

    you are sitting in the stands watching Mohammed Ali box and pretending you know what it takes to be a boxer.

    Publishers/Developers put a LOT of work into these games and a lot of money that, if they don’t recoup, they will never get to make another one.

    #65 10 months ago
  66. fearmonkey

    Cliffy is evidently in bed with MS, and believes in their cause. Unfortunate…………….

    @mightyhokie – Most people that sell their games use that money to buy new games. Most people that buy the games used, probably wouldn’t have bought the game new to begin with. I never buy a game used if I am dying for a title. I can’t tell you how many times I bought a used game I was iffy on, loved it, and then bought the Dev’s next game new. It’s not as black and white as Cliffy is making it.

    I have a feeling that AAA games will be just fine, and if they arent, oh well. Why is it that we havent had a new Crash bandicoot, Spyro the dragon, Jumping Flash, Psychonauts style game on Xbone? The closest thing is EA’s Plants vs Zombies shooter. I love platformers on consoles, and it was guns guns guns on display at E3.

    Don’t get me wrong, i love shooters, but I love platformers too, and it seems that you have to buy a Wii-u to have that.

    I realize there is Knack on PS4, but until I see reviews and more gameplay, the jury is out. I hope its great though.

    #66 10 months ago
  67. skapunkmetalskater

    Simple point of fact… used games have ALWAYS been around in the games industry… and what’s happened to the industry so far? It’s got bigger and better. Budgets have increased, sales have increased and the diversity of games has broadened to cover all forms, whether epic AAA titles, mini game fads, motion controlled, XBLA/PSN title, mobile titles etc.

    They continue to whinge about used games killing off the industry yet the industry continues to grow. More and more games are being produced due to the tools available, middleware etc and budgets are being expanded all the time.

    If there was a genuine issue of “no one is buying games anymore” then why would they be pumping so much money into large franchise titles?

    The truth is: Publishers or developers (I dunno who to blame, I’d say publishers) just see it as selling 10 million copies of their title and then losing out on an additional few million in second hand sales. Saying “if there was no second hand market, we’d have sold 13 million instead of 10 million.”

    If you could only purchase new cars and couldn’t trade them in or buy second hand ones, does anyone actually, really think that’d work? I’m sure manufacturers would like to sell their cars only as new to new customers but unfortunately we have a society whereby not every single person can afford that.

    People buy more DVDs new than they do preowned. Why? Cos they’re fraction of the price!!

    #67 10 months ago
  68. silkvg247

    Makes you wonder how on earth AAA movies generate any revenue. They cost tens of millions to make.

    Let’s say the max one person would spend would be £25 or even £30 for a high priced cinema and then a max priced bluray.

    If you’re more like me you’d spend closer to £18 on the cinema plus bluray in total.

    Or, you might not view it at all at the cinema, buy it second hand on disc for like a fiver.

    All of which are under £40, the price of a new game. Oh and the discs are tradable, infinitely tradable really. And the piracy scene for movies once they’re on disc is much worse than games.

    So, how do they get those tens of millions back?

    This is why the whole argument is bullshit. If you want games to be untradable then charge less (steam). If you want games to be untradable and cost the exact same or more than they do today then take a good close look at my middle finger.

    #68 10 months ago
  69. YoungZer0

    @10: Oh, so I guess that’s why Direct-to-DVD movies even exist, because they don’t make any money.

    Here’s the idea: If you want to sell more copies, bring the price down. 60 Euros for a new title is the reason why used games are so interesting for the crowd. 30 or even 40 Euros for a new game like they do it with most PC titles? Yes, I’ll buy that. I’ll even take more risks. I might actually buy games that I’m not as interested in, because: Why not? I can afford it with that price tag.

    @67, 68:

    http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Gn4rk1ll/citizen-kane-clapping.gif

    #69 10 months ago
  70. SplatteredHouse

    @61 I’ll look at a comment of Cliff’s in the same way I do when presented with a comment by Mark Rein. In the context of someone with an agenda. Except that Rein’s agenda is selling software development licenses (that’s not bad, in fact I think that’s all right), but if he has an audience I need to reckon that there’s a possibility of a clash of interests – but at least he’s not trying to influence public opinion (by attacking those in disagreement) towards his ideals.

    In fact, I enjoy seeing the latter’s comments. He’s, clearly, a superior-placed source for opinion on hardware direction and development trend, for instance. Cliffy B’s view is absurd, founded as it is on the pre-requisite of acceptance of an unsupported premise. *cough*

    #70 10 months ago
  71. mightyhokie

    @66 I get what you are saying, I really do. I used to use GameFly for a while (I only stopped because I wanted to play the latest and greatest and all I ever seemed to get was the ‘midgrade’ games). There were some games that I liked and have/would buy more like it based on that. I get it. Its like letting a friend borrow you Sabbath album and when the next 10 comes out he gets them because he is a fan. I understand the value of borrowing games, and the value of buying used games. But if a developer asks for $3-5 for a license to play a game that they developed, in their eyes you are buying their game for $3-5 instead of $55-65. But at least that is something. It just seems right to me. Maybe its because I’m an artist and believe in the Constitutional right of intellectual property, I don’t know. But it just seems to me that these are very smart, very talented, very hard working people and they deserve to get paid for their work. It sucks that they create games like Bioshock Infinite or GTA4 or other masterpieces that takes an army of people to make and people think it is okay to play their games for free. Sure, they paid a friend or Gamestop or whatever $35 for it, but the developer sees zero and they are the ones that suffer.

    So I see the value in used games. I just think that so many people bitching about a subject that they simply do not know anything about as if they are an industry insider or a game developer is silly. Seriously…Bleszinski knows a LOT more about this than anyone else on this site, including the people who run VG247. Suggest to VG247 that you know their business better than them and that they are idiots because they do it differently than you. But in your case to suggest that he is a shill for MS just because he disagrees with you is pretty uncool too. I could say ‘you are a shill for Sony because you are against MS in this matter’. Don’t take this personally btw, I’m just having a discussion, so there is nothing personal here. I’ve just heard a LOT of stuff since e3 and a lot of it has been wrong or (in most cases) because of MS’s retarded PR. =)

    #71 10 months ago
  72. SplatteredHouse

    @71 Cliff said “accept this premise I present”. It appears that some people are not keen to do so, on such shaky ground – I know I’m not prepared to whilst recent history, and visible evidence that’s available tells us that the premise is flawed. It doesn’t matter how smart and all these qualities the speaker has, in the end, that still counts for nothing to support that person’s argument.

    #72 10 months ago
  73. polygem

    @65:

    “So many of you people are ridiculous.

    Yeah, no doubt you know how the gaming industry, game creation, and the economics of creating a $100M game better than Cliff Bleszinski.”

    well…and then YOU start to explain the business to us :)

    i provided a link here before, miyamoto is much more relaxed about used games and he´s spot on about it imho, i´d also suggest reading the destructoid article CM posted here, it´s good.

    #73 10 months ago
  74. mightyhokie

    @73…
    Well, I can’t. I don’t know the ins and outs of that business. I might have a bit better sense of the graphic side of it than most (I’m an illustrator, graphic designer, web designer/dev, and 3D animation guy), but that being the case I just scratch the surface. Just watch what Double Fine’s Broken Age has taken to make…and that is just a very, very, very small game compared to something like GTA5, Infinite, or Mass Effect. Indie developers have teams of like 4-10 people and it takes them at minimum tens of thousands of dollars and 6+ months at long hours to put out a game that isn’t a total piece of shit. Follow Double Fine’s Kickstarter bio and you will see highly talented people solving complex problems working long hours at risk of losing pretty much everything if they don’t sell enough copies of the game. I just believe that they deserve compensation for their hard work. What I was trying to get at and maybe could have put it in a better way is that so many fanboys are espousing views that are not based on any facts or knowledge at all, and pointing a finger at people who do (like Bleszinski) and blasting them as if they are greedy pieces of shit. Well, HE might be, for all I know, but he def knows more about the time, energy, process, and money it takes to make a AAA video game that me, you, or anyone else who is posting here.

    I just find it super frustrating because I highly respect these people. Very much so. From the artists who are paid to just make objects in the world all the way up to the creative directors. They work hard. They run the greatest form of entertainment in the world (IMO). I just hate to see people hating on them just because they want to make their money back to make more games. If these companies don’t make money at this then there will be no video games.

    #74 10 months ago
  75. OwningXylophone

    @ Steph

    Yes the film companies do make money out of rentals in a roundabout way. Buy a new DVD/Blu-Ray and you’ll usually find somewhere on the packaging and/or disc the phrase “Not for rental”, that’s because the copies that Blockbuster, Lovefilm, etc. rent out cost them nearer $200 per copy, not the $20 the consumers pay (except for a few unscrupulous stores I have encountered over the years who just put their labels over this and rent out retail copies). Add to that the additional revenue streams of cinema & the payments they receive from TV networks to show their films and it is easy to see why the film industry can still make money in spite of rentals & used. Games have 1 revenue stream, retail, that’s it.

    #75 10 months ago
  76. zersus

    Go, get the fuck of bling-bling-Blingzinski. Man I can’t stand this guy!
    People like him are the main problem in modern game development. Know what? I bought Bulletstorm as a used game, because I knew it’s going to be shit, and man, I was so damn right. I give this game away (like for free).
    The used game is the main problem? Hell, I was never ever so happy about the modern day communication possibilities and education possibilities through the new media. The gamers can blog, bitch and moan and be heard by other and organize. If it all fail, we get support Indi games just to show other that the 10th title of Assasins Creed and CoD are no longer welcome. It’s the quality, the attitude and the way ppl like him treat us that makes the game Industry so shitty, not the used games. I absolutely agree to the article from destructoid and by the way, I have trade away a single of my Wii games or other Nintendo games. And I see myself as a Sony fan, not even Nintendo!

    #76 10 months ago
  77. sh4dow

    Now I know at least one more guy whose games I won’t buy. Bleszinski, Yerli and Molyneux. To only name individuals whose bullshit in the news pisses me off regularly. I won’t mention various shitty companies that are in the news frequently for similarly bad reasons.

    #77 10 months ago