Sections

Xbox One pre-owned: analysts, publishers, indie retailers weigh-in

Friday, 7th June 2013 21:17 GMT By Stephany Nunneley

Last night, Microsoft announced Xbox One would not block the sale of used games unless publishers decided to impose used game activation fees. Today, analysts, publishers, and a few indie retailers have commented on the matter.

Analysts feel its “unlikely” publishers will block used games

In an investors note we recieved today, Robert W. Baird & Co. analyst Colin Sebastin said at “first glance,” he would be “surprised” if publishers used the opportunity to ask for a revenue share

“Microsoft itself will not restrict used game sales, nor charge a fee for game transfers, the company is giving third-party publishers the discretion to restrict used or negotiate a fee from retailers,” he said. “At first glance, we would not be surprised although we see it as unlikely that GameStop would agree to any meaningful fees given business model constraints and outsized market share (almost 50% of Xbox software sales).”

Wedbush Morgan analyst Michael Pachter told GI International, that publishers that block used games would be lose money to competitors without such blocks in place. He does, however, believe some publisher might put time restrictions on when games would be allowed to be traded-in.

“The currency generated from used game trade-ins is beneficial for the publishers, as it provides currency available for new game purchases,” he said. “However, many believe that used games sold in proximity to a new game’s release cannibalizes sales of the new title, so we think that some publishers may limit used game trade-ins for a specified period of time following the game’s launch.

“We expect used gaming to continue to be widespread, to the benefit of GameStop.”

The analysts believe the announcement was a mixed bag for GameStop. While a possible block on used games would affect the company, the revelation that all titles would be available for digital distribution on launch day could be a blow to the retail giant’s new sales.

Publishers refuse comment or are unsure at the moment

MCV got on the horn first thing this morning, and started asking various publishers whether Xbox One games from the firm would be blocked if purchased used.

Unsurprisingly, many either declined comment or didn’t bother replying.

Bethesda and Capcom both said since neither has not announced any games for the console at this time, it was not offering comment.

Ubisoft “politely” declined to comment, as did Namco Bandai and Activision. Rising Star Games said it had no comment at present either.

While EA, 2K and SEGA said each would get back with them on the matter at some point, MCV had yet to hear back from the following publishers: Codemasters, Square Enix, Warner Bros., Deep Silver and Konami.

Speaking of 2K though, the CEO of its parent company, Strauss Zelnick, has said previously that the firm isn’t too worried about used game sales because according to him, if you make a good game, the consumer won’t want to trade it in.

“Our view about used games has been, as opposed to whining or figuring out ways to punish the consumer for buying used games, we’ve figured out we better delight the consumer,” he said. “Let’s push up our quality, which you’ve seen in our Metacritic scores, and then let’s make sure to give people DLC, often free, three or four weeks out; which is the time you’re at risk for them trading in their game.

“If you can keep the game in consumer’s hands for eight weeks, you almost don’t care anymore about used game sales because it’s the first 8 weeks that really nail you.”

The indie factor

The Xbox One news last night didn’t go over too well with the inide retail camp, with most contacted by MCV feeling such complicated pre-owned licence agreements would be bad news for the consumer, and maybe even worse for Microsoft.

“Microsoft has screwed the launch up big style,” Chips MD Don McCabe told the site. “It is digging a big hole. It’s the classic dominance leads to arrogance, arrogance leads to fall and the fall leads to a fall in sales and then they listen to consumers and become humble and being humble leads to growth.

“History always repeats itself. Our industry is very cyclic and some haven’t completed that dominance to humble cycle. Look at THQ – it became arrogant, invested in uDraw and it screwed them up. The history of video games is littered with companies that were massive in their day but took a wrong step. EA have gone through the same cycle a few times and now they have become humble again. Look at the Simcity debacle.

“You’d think Microsoft has looked at all the past mistakes and thought how can we do all of these. Again, it’s a case of more questions than answers and that’s not good in terms of PR. The negatives are what people remember and all retailers are crapping themselves. This is my business, why should you control my business?”

Matthew Brady of Game On and Xpress Games’ Chris Muckell wondered if the policies apply to get the larger retailers or the small, independent stores as well.

“They have left yet more unanswered questions,” said Brady. “[Distributor] Gem doesn’t have any info and nothing is feeding back from Microsoft. We don’t know anything. The new information put to bed the issue of Kinect buying but ‘participating retailers’ could be anyone! If it’s just the big boys, they’ll be no competition.”

“Does ‘retailers’ mean GAME, HMV & Tesco? Or does it mean Xpress Games and all the other indies throughout the country?,” added Muckell. “We’ve not been briefed on anything yet, so it’s hard to give a good honest judgment until we’ve heard from the horses mouth how/if Microsoft will be working with indie retailers.

“In a nutshell it just sounds over complicated for a consumer. There are too many rules, overcomplicating something that should be a simple process simply just to syphon out a few pounds of pre-owned revenue for the publisher/Microsoft. ”

Brady said with Microsoft over complicating things, and Game On is in need of answers as the release of the new console is going to “affect us for the next six or seven years.”

“This is going to be a minefield for all retailers to one extent or another,” added Muckell. “Imagine the fun with customer returns/unwanted gifts. It will be an interesting 12 months ahead.

“Let’s see what Sony have to say.”

Microsoft has said its E3 presentation on Monday with consists of nothing but games, for 90-minutes. Hopefully, it will take five minutes to alleviate any lingering fears consumers may have along with announcing happy good time stuff.

Breaking news

89 Comments

Sign in to post a comment.

  1. wamp

    I can’t believe what’s happening. From 3 years We’ve been waiting for the next generation and the exitement that’s around it. Now I just want to cry, and I’m dead serious about the crying!

    #1 11 months ago
  2. Djoenz

    Me too Wamp me too :(
    I feel you bro!

    #2 11 months ago
  3. Moonwalker1982

    Seriously all because of used games? I guess i underestimated how big the used game market is then. I honestly couldn’t give a crap about it. Look at my collection and you’ll see nothing but new games.

    #3 11 months ago
  4. ActionGameKing

    I’m really worried…

    #4 11 months ago
  5. FeaturePreacher

    I hope developers can finally get the revenues they deserve from used games so perhaps they don’t have to sell as many millions of new copies or else get shuttered. The 24 hour stuff isn’t so good as well as trying to force kinect. I guess that’s why I’ll get a ps4 day one even if they have the same used game scheme. XBone will come when there’s a title that I can get no where else.

    #5 11 months ago
  6. ps3fanboy

    micro$haft’s always on drm infested hot topic xbone

    *flush toilets*

    #6 11 months ago
  7. The_Red

    @3
    But on Xbox one, it will NOT be your collection because you no longer own games. You own licenses on clouds while your discs become useless install proxies. Also, when Xbox1 servers go down, your non-collection becomes less playable than a stack of bricks.

    #7 11 months ago
  8. Lengendaryboss

    @Moonwalker1982
    Yes, because lots of people buy games used, This is an interesting read from the Heavy Rain Devs:
    “I can take just one example of Heavy Rain – we basically sold to date approximately two million units, we know from the trophy system that probably more than three million people bought this game and played it. On my small level it’s a million people playing my game without giving me one cent.”
    Shows that the used game market is vital to get that maximum audience interested in your product.

    Read more here: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-09-12-quantic-dream-we-lost-and-8364-10m-on-second-hand-heavy-rain-sales

    #8 11 months ago
  9. Fethennour

    @4 : Why would you be ? Just don’t buy that piece of shit, that’s all.

    #9 11 months ago
  10. bristol6

    Everyone should have seen this coming. Sony fanboys don’t get too excited. Your “beloved” platform will follow suit. Its the publishers morons. Why would the hardware guys take it upon themselves to implement this into their new “hardware” without consulting the “software” guys. Read my blog bristol6blog.wordpress.com

    #10 11 months ago
  11. lookingglass

    @7

    Your post shows a complete lack of knowledge of both “the cloud” and of the Xbox One console. Though it is hardly your fault. Your peers on this site are just as tech illiterate.

    To think Xbox One can’t flip a switch and turn off all authentication requirements is absurd. If they are ever in the position to turn their cloud services off, they would not brick millions of consoles. A system patch would easily allow all games to be played with just the disc barring publisher restrictions.

    And why are you worrying about a solvable issue that’s 10-15 years down the road?

    These forums are so desperate to hate on the Xbox One it’s hilarious.

    #11 11 months ago
  12. ActionGameKing

    @9 It’s the publishers that are behind most of these restrictions.

    #12 11 months ago
  13. MadFlavour

    If you buy one of these anti consumerist shitboxes I hope you die in an aids fire.

    #13 11 months ago
  14. Lengendaryboss

    ^ Damn son, thats cold.

    #14 11 months ago
  15. zinc

    ^ “Aids fire”?

    Pretty sure the virus isn’t flammable… Could explain spontaneous human combustion though…

    #15 11 months ago
  16. Djoenz

    xD

    #16 11 months ago
  17. harr0w

    ooohhh god lordy “aids fires” there the worse type of fires!!!

    #17 11 months ago
  18. Fethennour

    @12 : I’m also talking about that “must be connected at least once every 24 hours” shit.

    #18 11 months ago
  19. stretch215

    I’m buying it, as well as everyone that I game on 360 with. You see, we aren’t too cheap to buy new games and pay for decent broadband. Once a day authentication that can be done via cellphone is a total non-issue as well.

    #19 11 months ago
  20. Francis O

    Legendaryboss

    Do you still think the Xbox One is ok? Even though you don’t own the games you purchase?

    http://playeressence.com/do-not-buy-the-xbox-one-a-call-to-arms/

    #20 11 months ago
  21. MegaGeek1

    @ 19 – Dont be a self-absorbed elitist POS. What you can afford is not the point.

    #21 11 months ago
  22. Djoenz

    @20
    Great article.

    #22 11 months ago
  23. superjay779

    @13 I decided I’m going to buy it because I was curious what an Aid’s fire is.

    #23 11 months ago
  24. Malmer

    I guess I really should care, but not a single on of the One’s restrictions will apply to my gaming habbits. And buying software licenses is nothing new to me, so I’m just interested to see what games there will be at E3.

    Maybe I’m part of the problem, but so be it.

    #24 11 months ago
  25. stretch215

    @21 then what is the point? You clearly don’t like the system. Don’t buy it. I like the system, I will buy it. End of story. People are bitching about used games. I don’t buy my games used. People are bitching about once a day check ins. I have reliable internet service and, even if it goes down, I can “check in” by tethering the box to my cell phone. Nothing “elitist” about that at all (mega) geek. Just the facts.

    #25 11 months ago
  26. DaveDogg

    @7 & 20 small point you never have owned any piece of software on any machine. you have only owned the license that says you have the right to use that software so that situation wont really change. what will change is where it says in the license you may not resell without the express permission of the licensor (the publisher) you either will or wont have that right and for the first time they will have a way to enforce it

    #26 11 months ago
  27. majicship

    I only buy pre owned games. That’s becasue I don’t have much disposable income. I have a mortgage, two teenage kids, and I don’t earn half as much as I once used to due to recession yadda yadda yadda… I’m not complaining, I know a lot of other people who are in the same boat as me. Gaming is a low cost hobby. That’s why I like it. So I buy off ebay. I am happy to wait 19 months for a game I want to come up for £12.00 including postage and I jump on it. I might be 18 months behind everybody else but I am still playing AAA titles, but at a price that I can afford. Just finished Hitman, Driver SF, am halfway through Borderlands 2 and already have Skyrim lined up as my next project. I haven’t paid over fifteen quid for any of them. My game collection is about as extensive as the next bloke; just a bit beind the times is all. My way of thinking is a good game is still a good game even if it is 18 months old. I never suffer from glitches because they’re always patched by the time I get my hands on them, and DLC is usually still pretty fresh etc. but I don’t play online. Therefore I never feel like I am missing out on the current trend. Twice a year I get a new title for birthday and Christmas etc. so that goes a way to keeping me in the now so to speak. I reckon I must put in about 4 hours gaming everyday and I always play through until the credits even if the game is a stinker. So I am getting my monies worth of value from my purchases. Id like to support the industry more so I do try to buy a lot of DLC and don’t object to it. It’s also a way of giving something back to the publisher. I also buy a lot of XBL Arcade titles too – but only because they are affordable. If there was a system in place that dictated I had to pay a one off activation fee of, say one or two pounds/dollars to play a pre owned title when I first loaded it into my console I would factor this into my purchase price when I was looking to buy a pre owned game. This would not be unreasonable in my opinion. I think the uncertainty surrounding the new generation of consoles is what’s making everybody so jumpy right now. That said I am already thinking I might switch to a PS4 if I am not happy with how MS is handling these issues. In closing, I buy games and keep them just like I do music CD’s or Dvd’s. I consider them to be my property and I keep hold of them because I might one day decide to play them through again – even though I never do. But 90% of what I play I buy pre owned.

    #27 11 months ago
  28. DarkElfa

    What’s likely to happen is people will be more weary of taking a chance on new games belonging to untested franchises if they end up unable to return them or trade them in for something else.

    #28 11 months ago
  29. manamana

    In contrary to what stretch215 said, none of my 360 friends and none of my gaming friends in general are planning or considering a XB1. Some of them have pre-ordered a PS4 but most are waiting what Sony is up to too. It’s really not what a console gamer would’ve dreamed of, considering how long we are waiting for next-gen consoles.

    #29 11 months ago
  30. Phoenixblight

    @28

    Absolutely. Only way blocking preowned games would work is if the publisher cuts the price so the buyer will be more likely to purchase the game.

    #30 11 months ago
  31. Christopher Jack

    I think the Xbone will only really sell to the typical CoD &/or Halo gamers at this point based on general opinion. I actually hope it does poorly so the entire industry reevaluates these draconian restrictions they’re trying to shove down our throat. While CoD & Halo are mega franchises, they alone won’t keep the Xbone afloat at this point.

    I don’t exactly want the Xbone to fail, just the restrictions placed upon it.

    #31 11 months ago
  32. stretch215

    @31 I think you are wrong. Sure, I play cod/ halo, but I also play games like minecraft, journey, xcom, dishonored, fallout, the cave, etc. I play all genres of games, and I am buying both consoles so I can play them all. Saying a console will only sell to a certain “type” of person is pretty foolish and quite inaccurate.

    #32 11 months ago
  33. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ and pretty naive, considering we know next to nothing about the X1′s games.

    Some of the oft mentioned 15 exclusives could well be system sellers to non-FPS players.

    We don’t know at this stage, so, right now, making predictions is naive as well as pointless.

    #33 11 months ago
  34. Christopher Jack

    I didn’t say JUST only but I guess we’ll have to wait a while to see how it does although at this point I don’t see why any gamer should bother caring about the Xbone right now. At the moment it’s expected to be the lesser machine in terms of specs yet will cost more, has so many restrictions and on top of it all, requires a sub to access basic features. So far the only good news is that the controller looks ergonomic. Of course we don’t have all the info yet & exclusives seem to be the one and only thing to look forward to.

    #34 11 months ago
  35. stretch215

    @34 what are you comparing the xbx1 to? Ps4? Ok, spec wise the ps4 may be a little better, but so was the ps3. And most multiplat games were better on 360. Plus this “cloud” functionality may provide something the ps4 cannot, but we’ll see about that. You don’t know what either machine will cost ( I don’t even know why you brought that up, tbh). And you also don’t know what either consoles online subscription plans are (again, I don’t see why you even bothered posting this). It seems that most of your post is misinformation. I actually like the non-gaming features of the xbx1. And I am just as much a “gamer” as you.

    #35 11 months ago
  36. Christopher Jack

    @35, The PS3 had a weaker GPU and a complicated architecture, this time they share the same architecture but the PS4 is believed to have the better SoC. As for how the cloud impacts gaming we won’t know for a while- sony could also go the same route without making it mandatory. I also mentioned that the XBone is expected to cost more.

    As for the subscriptions, I expect things to remain largely the same though what interests me is how Sony can use Gaikai to make PS+ more appetizing(BC for example) though Sony may add a more premium tier for shit like that. I also expect XBone to continue requiring Gold for MP(something that clearly bothers me) however I expect them to also add in more content. There’s a possibility that Sony may require PS+ for MP but I doubt it.

    Also, how is pricing not relevant to the purchase of a console? For me at the moment, anything above $400 would be a deal breaker & I’d certainly not prefer to pay an additional $100 per year just for MP compared to the dozens of free games & huge discounts(on top of other things) PS+ offers at an even lower price which is why, as I mentioned above, that I suspect MS maybe adding more value to Gold.

    Overall, I wouldn’t say that I’m misinforming anybody as that would require me to present false information as fact which I am not, I’m basing my personal opinion on expectations. I’m sorry if you can’t read my writing correctly but that’s your own problem. Feel free to quote me if I’m wrong about any of this but I’m fairly confident.

    #36 11 months ago
  37. Phoenixblight

    “Plus this “cloud” functionality may provide something the ps4 cannot, but we’ll see about that. ”

    No it can’t as been proven by tech analysis. It will only be able to lighten the load for things that the player doesn’t interact with, flocking AI, static lighting. People need to stop grabbing at this as if its some be all, end all of the Xbox One. Its not, nor will it ever be. MS went the for a less intensive hardware to provide the all in one entertainment hub along with getting ready for going full cloud.

    #37 11 months ago
  38. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ Nothing has been “proven” at all, other than that claims of 4 times the literal power being (obviously) highly unrealistic.

    It’s impossible to do a “tech analysis” of games that you haven’t seen.

    Perhaps it’s you who needs to stop trying to shout this down at every opportunity, without even having seen a single piece of X1 software.

    #38 11 months ago
  39. stretch215

    @36 you presented your opinion as fact and your “expectations” are clearly biased. Also: http://m.ign.com/articles/2010/08/26/xbox-360-vs-playstation-3-the-hardware-throwdown
    The ps3 is the overall more “powerful” system. Do you really believe multiplat games won’t be near identical? Lol! @37 lolwhut? Who said anything about the “end all be all”? Grown folks are talking here, kid. Shut your mouth.

    #39 11 months ago
  40. DarkElfa

    @38, No offense man, but you are unfortunately a know X-box fanboy, so your optimism is suspect at best.

    #40 11 months ago
  41. stretch215

    @36 (nice edit) who said pricing is irrelevant?. I (correctly) said you know nothing about the price of either machine after you said ps4 would be cheaper. Are you drunk? “I’m sorry if you can’t read my writing correctly, but that’s your problem.”

    #41 11 months ago
  42. Telepathic.Geometry

    @LengendaryBoss: You quoted David Cage: “Heavy Rain – we sold two million units, we know that probably more than three million people played it. That’s a million people playing my game without giving me one cent.”

    That is a very facile way of thinking. The 1 million who bought it 2nd hand might not have played it all if they had to buy it new, and of the up to (but certainly less than) 1 million who sold it on after playing, how many would have bought it new with no resale option to recoup some of the cost?

    Obviously there are two extreme answers:

    1) The 2 million would have bought the game anyway, even with no resale option, and the other 1 million, with no other avenue to play the game would have ponied up and bought it new.

    2) The 1 million 2nd hand gamers would just get something else, scared off by the relatively high price, the ones who from the beginning intended to sell it on 2nd hand to be able to buy other games would be put off and refuse to buy, and the ones who usually keep the game are still left with a bad taste in their mouth, leading to some percentage not buying.

    I think that the truth is in the middle there somewhere, but certainly “one million play my game free” suggestion is ridiculous. He suggests that he doesn’t see any of their money, but indirectly he definitely does. We just don’t know how much.

    #42 11 months ago
  43. Christopher Jack

    @39, Of course my opinions are bias, you can’t have a non bias opinion, jeez. Also I didn’t denythat the PS3 is more powerful, I just stated that the X360 had the better GPU & simpler design.

    @41, I never claimed to know the price, once again my opinion was based on expectations and I won’t deny that there’s a fair chance that I maybe wrong so of course, like any sane person, I’ll reserve my final judgement when everything is official. Who knows?-maybe MS could blow me away and offer their console for under $300AUD with no sub required for MP but that I really doubt. So let’s just sit back until all the facts are out & if I happen to be pleasantly wrong, I’ll humbly accept so.

    This whole debate seems to stem from your inability to seperate clearly stated opinions from actual information.

    #43 11 months ago
  44. G1GAHURTZ

    @40:

    None taken. People label me and anyone else a fanboy if they don’t blindly love what they love, and hate what they hate.

    So I’d say that the best thing is to just wait until E3 to see if my “optimism” is justified or not.

    #44 11 months ago
  45. Christopher Jack

    @44, Outta genuine curiosity, what currently excites you more about the XBone over the PS4?(this assumption being based purely by your comments) My first guess would be the controller, second being the familiar ecosystem(friends, achievements, familiarity with voice chat, etc).

    I certainly wouldn’t call you a fanboy for having an opinion either way as you behave better than those like ps3fanboy who act as if they’re a hooligan at a football game.

    #45 11 months ago
  46. Phoenixblight

    @38

    Sorry what? Its not about the games. As been shown by actual people who know their craft more so than MS PR bullshit, had broken done what the cloud will be able to do for the system.

    Game physics (update models)
    Triangle setup and optimisation
    Tessellation
    Texturing
    Shading
    Various render passes
    Lighting calculations
    Post effects
    Immediate AI
    Ambient (world) AI
    Immediate physics (shots, collisions)
    Ambient physics

    Of these, only the ambient background tasks and some forms of lighting stand out as candidates for remote processing.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

    #46 11 months ago
  47. BrahManDude

    im done with xbox i don’t want to worry about the shady stuff the pull im gonna miss you….you pushed me to this and dont care about just playing games so what’s the point TV TV TV TV TV
    TV

    #47 11 months ago
  48. G1GAHURTZ

    @46:

    stretch215 said: “Plus this “cloud” functionality may provide something the ps4 cannot, but we’ll see about that.

    You then said: “No it can’t as been proven by tech analysis.

    He said it was possible. You said it’s impossible.

    That is clearly not true.

    Even if it’s just the “ambient background tasks and some forms of lighting“, then the X1 is still potentially able to do something that the PS4 cannot.

    #48 11 months ago
  49. Phoenixblight

    @48

    That which its only doing what the Ps4 can do by its own hardware because the Ps4 as been pointed out by DIgital foundry has 50% more raw power. SO what MS is just doing is just making up for what it lacks in hardware with cloud computing but only when related to ambient tasks which as pointed out by DF comes to static lighting and World AI. Static lighting with Frostbyte, Crytek and Unreal 4 is practically pointless with how they now handle dynamic lighting.

    MS is just take its weakness and strengthening with the cloud which can only do a select number of things. DF did say it could help with procedural content building and the only game so far that actually does that is Daylight which is a PS4 and PC game.

    #49 11 months ago
  50. G1GAHURTZ

    @45:

    Right now, I haven’t made a definite decision that I want either of them. XBL and PSN have definitely left me with the clear impression that MS will do much better with it’s online infrastructure, but I could be wrong about that, so I’m not jumping to any conclusions.

    Online is definitely more important to me, because I don’t like offline gaming in general.

    I’ve seen the PS3 reveal, and tbh, the games were a bit underwhelming. Killzone Fallout didn’t seem much of a step up, and The only other game that sticks in my mind is the kiddy one with the character made up of little blocks.

    I haven’t seen any X1 games yet, and given the failure of a reveal that MS did, I’m preparing myself to be just as underwhelmed.

    I like that MS are pushing the online stuff. If you search VG247 over the past few years, you should find comments from me talking about how one of the main things that I wanted from the next gen was better online.

    I’m pretty hyped for Titanfall, because it looks to be doing lots of new things, both in terms of gameplay, and technically, with it’s cloud integration.

    Other than that, my basic stance is that I plan on waiting for all of the information to come out on both consoles, both launch line ups, and both sets of exclusives before making a decision.

    My excitement meter for the X1 is about a 4 (out of 10), because I hardly know anything about the games, and for the PS4, it’s about a 3, because the thought of completely switching over to PSN doesn’t fill me with confidence, based on my own, personal experiences in the past.

    If Sony can show me online ambition that gets me hyped, I would have no problem ditching the X1 for a PS4.

    #50 11 months ago
  51. G1GAHURTZ

    its only doing what the Ps4 can do by its own hardware because the Ps4 as been pointed out by DIgital foundry has 50% more raw power.

    There’s zero proof for that.

    Where is the proof?

    You keep clinging desperately to this single, speculative Digital Foundry article, but even they say: “Microsoft needs to prove its position with strong ideas and practical demonstrations.

    Even they admit that they can’t prove any of their guesswork without seeing any games.

    What you’re doing is taking their words further than they chose to, and claiming that it’s fact.

    Everyone else seems to be saying ‘maybe, possibly, could’, whereas you’re acting like you’ve got the final verdict without needing to see the evidence.

    But that’s fair enough…

    I’ll wait for E3, and you wait too. Then we can compare actual in-game footage, and see just how effective this cloud technology is.

    Until then, all you’re doing is guessing.

    #51 11 months ago
  52. Lengendaryboss

    @Francis
    Well people will still buy it sadly whether it has a strong future it depends i really hope consumers vote with their wallets because the Xbone 24 online limit would be difficult for me to upkeep so therefore never in any situationwould i buy it.

    @Telepathic
    Ok i would say David Cage opinion on used games is confusing i think he means that people play his game without giving him his cut but expand the audience that knows about it. The example was proof to show that the used game market is large whether or not they kept it or played it that someone other than the publishers/developers is getting money for their hard work.

    #52 11 months ago
  53. sg1974

    When did “clarify” replace “perform humiliating u-turn and run away with tail between legs”?

    #53 11 months ago
  54. machy

    @51 it is a fact that ps4 has 50% gpu power over xbone .. #dealwithit

    #54 11 months ago
  55. G1GAHURTZ

    @54 I wasn’t even talking about that .. #learntoread

    #55 11 months ago
  56. Phoenixblight

    @55

    “Xbox One may well have a latency advantage over PS4 and power consumption will probably be lower, but GPU bandwidth – a key element in graphics performance – is indeed more limited on the Microsoft hardware.”

    “One’s GPU is confirmed – 12 compute units each capable of 64 ops/clock gives us the 768 total revealed by Microsoft and thus, by extension, the 1.2 teraflop graphics core. So that’s another tick on the Durango leaked spec that has been transposed across to the final Xbox One architecture and the proof we need that PlayStation 4′s 18 CU graphics core has 50 per cent more raw power than the GPU in the new Microsoft console.”

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

    I would also recommend this article as it goes even further in tech in the Xbox One.

    #56 11 months ago
  57. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ Do I really have to spell it out for you?

    I was specifically referring to the words in bold (that’s why I put them in bold!) in comment #51.

    With regards to the GPU “raw power”, I repeat: “I wasn’t even talking about that .. #learntoread”

    #57 11 months ago
  58. Phoenixblight

    @57

    So you are going with cherry picking, nice. I say it has 50% raw power and you say ignore the GPU, you know one of the main pieces that make gaming possible? THere is also the difference in Ram which the Xbox One has to carve out a large portion to run 3 OS simultaneously along with using DDR3 giving it slower bandwidth compared to PS4.

    #58 11 months ago
  59. G1GAHURTZ

    Oh wow.

    Look at the result of actually giving you some credit…

    I thought you could figure this out for yourself, but I guess not.

    Oh well. I suppose I’ll have to spell it out on a kiddie level.

    1. You said “its only doing what the Ps4 can do by its own hardware…

    This is pure guesswork, or should I say ‘hopework’ from you. This statement, which is nothing more than a baseless claim, cannot be proven at this stage, because you have have not seen, nor has Digital Foundry seen, any X1 games that use the technology in question.

    I put this part in bold to emphasize that this is what I was responding to.

    2. The quote continued “…because the Ps4 as been pointed out by DIgital foundry has 50% more raw power.

    The only reason that I left that part in the quote was because I was highlighting that the source for all of your hopework is a single Digital Foundry article, which even admits (with more fairness than you’re clearly able to afford) that: “Microsoft needs to prove its position with strong ideas and practical demonstrations.

    My entire comment would still read in exactly the same way if I were to remove this part from your quote.

    3. The “raw power” claim has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I have not agreed with it, nor have I disputed it. Regardless, let’s just say it’s 100% true.

    So what? It still doesn’t change the fact that “its only doing what the Ps4 can do by its own hardware” is nothing more than an empty claim.

    You literally have NO idea what the X1 can do when combined with Azure, at this stage.

    You have seen no games.

    There is NO getting around that fact.

    #59 11 months ago
  60. Phoenixblight

    @59

    “You have seen no games.

    There is NO getting around that fact.”

    Absolutely right and so far from the list that is appearing from E3 the only 3rd party game that is exclusive to the Xbox One that is said to be using Azure is TitanFall which from the leaked article is not anything that is innovative or a system seller. I could honestly care less about MS internal developers as all of them besides 343 have just been disappointments last gen.

    #60 11 months ago
  61. Ireland Michael

    Azure is nothing but a server. The difference between the servers for every other PC game ever and Azure is that you have to go through Microsoft.

    The PS3 has been allowing developers to use their own servers for years.

    #61 11 months ago
  62. G1GAHURTZ

    @60:

    Don’t try to change the subject.

    Your first statement: “No it can’t as been proven by tech analysis” is what we’re talking about here.

    And now that you finally admit that you haven’t seen any games, we may actually be getting somewhere.

    You’ve seen no X1+Azure games.

    You cannot compare any X1+Azure games.

    You cannot “prove” a single thing about any X1+Azure games.

    #62 11 months ago
  63. Phoenixblight

    @62

    Well I have seen in it in the July Game Informer for TitanFall so yes I have “seen” it and that is all I can go by from it which its not utilising anything that most current games can’t do other than the fact it has huge giant mechs.

    #63 11 months ago
  64. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ Ok.

    You got me.

    You saw some images in a magazine that are clearly not in-game, and you managed to travel forward to Spring 2014 and see exactly what the finished game is capable of.

    Congratulations. You must be special.

    @61:

    I’m still waiting for a response: http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/06/titanfall-is-the-respawns-new-game-report/#comment-489202

    Lighting. AI. Physics.

    You show me a single real game that offloads these processing tasks to the cloud.

    Show me a single real game that can make a PC with a mid-range GFX card produce visuals that are out of it’s reach offline.

    #64 11 months ago
  65. monkeygourmet

    @64

    Does this mean certain features on the PC build will be different to X1 + cloud?

    Or can the PC access the same cloud features as X1?

    #65 11 months ago
  66. Gekidami

    I’d say the Digital Foundry article is pretty decent proof, especially seeing as they have MS admitting the cloud function cant be used for real-time jobs. Unless, you have something refuting that article…

    Of course, this wouldnt be the first time MS have taken a mere concept and pretended its a fact.

    #66 11 months ago
  67. G1GAHURTZ

    @65:

    I have absolutely no idea. I’m waiting for E3.

    @66:

    Even the DF article doesn’t go as far as to claim that X1+Azure is totally incapable of doing a single thing that an offline PS4 can do.

    “Plus this “cloud” functionality may provide something the ps4 cannot, but we’ll see about that. ”

    No it can’t

    And touché on the Kinect thing.

    #67 11 months ago
  68. Phoenixblight

    “Lighting. AI. Physics.

    You show me a single real game that offloads these processing tasks to the cloud.

    Show me a single real game that can make a PC with a mid-range GFX card produce visuals that are out of it’s reach offline.”

    SimCity offloaded all its computations to the cloud, its why it has to be always online.

    Azure will not be able to make a game’s visual better than what is on the hardware. I am not sure where you got that other than MS’s PR bs.

    #68 11 months ago
  69. Ireland Michael

    @64 A game cannot offload stuff like lighting because it still needs to run through the GPU to be rendered on screen.

    Physics likewise, still have to go through the hardware to be processed in game.

    Countless online games run their AI through their own servers. MMOs, for example. Mind you, good AI has been around for years, and is not some huge, complex, mega-server requiring thing.

    You are right regarding *that* sort of computational stuff… but then, I never said it couldn’t do that sort of thing. Point is, PCs have been doing it for years. Heck, FFXI on the PS2 and Xbox 360 could do it. Countless games on the PS3 already can.

    Welcome to the 2003, Xbox One. Congratulations.

    It’s a glorified explanation for an online server.

    It’s hyperbole of the highest order. Microsoft can’t seem to do *anything* lately without feeling the need to claim that its the greatest thing in the history of everything,never.

    There is a Digital Foundry article that disproves most of the claim in a far more thorough manner already out there. Your levels of fanboyism the past week or so have been hilarious to watch, if nothing else.

    #69 11 months ago
  70. G1GAHURTZ

    @68:

    SimCity does not need the cloud as you suggested.

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/modders-find-way-to-play-simcity-offline-6405296

    Try again.

    And don’t come back with any streamed games, or other always online DRM games.

    Show me a hybrid game with shared tasks.

    @69:

    You used to be much more of a challenge, Michael, but it seems that since you’ve decided to become slightly less of a complete troll, you’ve also become increasingly confused.

    Read comment #46 in this very thread.

    It quotes the exact same article that you mentioned.

    Then read the first two paragraphs of your comment again.

    Then disappear from the thread, like you always do when you get something so ridiculously wrong.

    ciao!

    #70 11 months ago
  71. Ireland Michael

    @70 Games do not *need* the cloud full stop.

    Try again.

    “Show me a hybrid game with shared tasks.”

    Every MMO ever.

    Christ, even the Dreamcast could do that.

    #71 11 months ago
  72. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ You’re CONFUSED Michael!

    First you say “A game cannot offload stuff like lighting because it still needs to run through the GPU to be rendered on screen.

    Then you say “Every MMO ever” can do it!

    Confused, Michael, confused!

    #72 11 months ago
  73. Phoenixblight

    @72

    I think Michael is talking about world AI which he is right that they do use servers for that. The article says that you can use the cloud for lightmapping for static lighting but there is no for that with updated engines that will use Dynamic lighting that are not as heavy on the CPU to calculate as they would be this gen.

    @68

    You didn’t prove anything with those articles. Infact you proved me right as both the mod and being offline for 20 mins proves you can’t go outside of the region otherwise the game disconnects which is one of the most crucial parts of the game is to have all your cities working together which is exactly what the cloud is used for.

    #73 11 months ago
  74. monkeygourmet

    How does this even work in reality?

    What if im playing Titanfall on X1 and my net connection dies. Do graphics or textures disappear? or does the game just pause?

    #74 11 months ago
  75. Phoenixblight

    @74

    THat is up to the developers on what happens if and when internet is disconnected but that game is MP centric so what happens when you lose an internet connection in a game of COD or Battlefield. You are booted.

    #75 11 months ago
  76. Ireland Michael

    @72 I said it can’t offload the lighting. The server will not make the lighting better. It will not be more detailed or elaborate because the hardware at the end of the day is still static.

    Sure it can do some calculations regarding light placement and the like, but the limitations on that sort of thing only existed in the first place due to console games being stored on a read-only medium. The includion of a HDD in every machine should make the necessity of the cloud completely redundant, especially when you consider the amount data that sort of information takes up in memory (a lot), and just how long that amount data would take to download to your machine to be of any significant use.

    My computer can process information from its HDD a good 1000 times faster than my Internet can download it. Real time calculations for stuff like lighting would be essentially useless. Nobody is going to bother with that when they can just use the hardware. That kind of unnecessary complexity is why developers hated the Cell so much.

    At the end of the day, the games will do the talking for the technology. I expect them to be whispers.

    @74 What you think? You won’t be able to play. That’s also another reason why its essentially useless. If your game is computing on the cloud and your net goes down… well fuck you, now you have a broken game.

    This is going to end up being used for rather standard stuff like auction houses, on the fly patching of multiplayer, and alterable scenarios and such in games. You know, the kind of stuff PC has been doing for over a decade. That’s about it.

    #76 11 months ago
  77. G1GAHURTZ

    I said it can’t offload the lighting.

    We know this.

    The article, that you (very ironically) pointed out to me, also says:

    The notion of off-loading lighting to the cloud has some advantages, but real-time solutions – such as Crytek’s cascaded light propogation tech – suggest that next-gen hardware will be capable of doing these calculations locally.

    A clear contradiction.

    The article that you claim backs you up, clearly says that it can be done.

    Whether the PS4 can do it locally is irrelevant, here. The fact is that it’s entirely possible, and your transparent fake technical ‘understanding’ of the process involved has been exposed.

    And offloading lighting may not necessarily be to make the lighting itself “better”, as you’re trying to assert is the end goal.

    Offloading as many things as possible, lightens the load on the console, and allows developers to put more into other parts of the game.

    #77 10 months ago
  78. G1GAHURTZ

    @74:

    It’s an online game.

    What happens when your internet goes down and you’re playing any MMO?

    #78 10 months ago
  79. monkeygourmet

    @78

    Yeah, I suppose in this case it would be similar to what happens now, but I thought MS was hyping this up as a feature that could be used in any game, maybe to push the power past PS4 levels.

    It seems a strange solution to me, being neither one thing or the other.

    #79 10 months ago
  80. G1GAHURTZ

    I don’t know. Like I said before, I’m just waiting to hear what they say at E3.

    It could well be that this tech only makes a difference in online games, and that every offline X1 game will be weaker in comparison.

    Until we see the games, there isn’t really much to say.

    #80 10 months ago
  81. DarkElfa

    @44, well, I’m not a fan of anything really, I’ve only seen you labeled that because you stick up for X-Box whenever you see it under attack and make apologies for their bad behavior and questionable tactics.

    Not a biggie really, PS3fanboy does the same for playstation and whats his butt with the PC.

    Blaming the labeling on someone holding a different opinion than you doesn’t really hold water in light of the given evidence.

    Like I said, not a big deal honestly, you guys can love whatever you want, but you should also take a hard look at what you’ve been willing to say to protect it. MS and Sony aren’t sports teams after all, they’re both corporations that have become very good at turning their consumers against each other while holding you upside down by your feet and shaking the loose change out of your pockets.

    Both sides of the argument need to take a good hard look at these companies and their records and decide if their love isn’t misplaced.

    #81 10 months ago
  82. zinc

    Lol, Giga has replaced his usual CoD online free-for-all with comments section death match!

    I wonder if Pat will add killstreaks in the VG247 overhaul?

    :)

    #82 10 months ago
  83. monkeygourmet

    @84

    Lol :)

    #83 10 months ago
  84. sg1974

    G1ga and Da Man tag team an awful lot.

    Just sayin.

    #84 10 months ago
  85. Erthazus

    ^ they are both Xbox fanboys so. Go figure. Lawl.

    #85 10 months ago
  86. WENDiGO

    I just looked at this recently and if its true we have a problem:

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=577741

    #86 10 months ago
  87. Ireland Michael

    @86 No homo!

    #87 10 months ago
  88. RoyBrown

    @Gigaderpz.

    Have not seen an Xbot fanboy with this many midichlorians in a long time, the microsoft is strong in this one.

    #88 10 months ago
  89. Dragon246

    “The quarterly Akamai state-of-the-internet report keeps us up to date on bandwidth available on the real-world internet. Average broadband speeds in the developed world struggle to reach over 8mbps as of Q3 last year – that’s only one megabyte per second. This means that whatever cloud computing power is available, consoles will have available to them an average of 1MB/s a second of processed data. If we compare that to the sort of bandwidth consoles are used to, the DDR3 of Xbox One is rated at around 68,000MB/s, and even that wasn’t enough for the console and had to be augmented with the ESRAM.

    The PS4 memory system allocates around 20,000MB/s for the CPU of its total 176,000MB/s. The cloud can provide one twenty-thousandth of the data to the CPU that the PS4′s system memory can. You may have an internet connection that’s much better than 8mbps of course, but even superfast fibre-optic broadband at 50mbps equates to an anaemic 6MB/s. This represents a significant bottleneck to what can be processed on the cloud, and that’s before upload speed is even considered. Upload speed is a small fraction of download speed, and this will greatly reduce how much information a job can send to the cloud to process. Taking the Forza crash example, if the console has to upload both the car collision mesh and scenery mesh to the cloud for it to calculate whether they have collided or not, that’s going to take several seconds.

    Of course, we wouldn’t send data over the internet without compressing it first. It’s through compression that OnLive manages to stream high-definition game video over those same slow internet connections. If OnLive can do it with games, why can’t it be done with game data for cloud computing? The main issue here is that video can be compressed with lossy algorithms that throw away large amounts of data that the viewer is insensitive to, producing a video that looks largely like the uncompressed source while needing a fraction of the data. This isn’t possible with game data like AI or physics states or models. ”
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

    Didn’t read the debate, but if people are expecting cloud to be a game-changer for X1, think again. 1-6 MBps is hardly something to boast about, you don’t need to be a computer expert to figure that out.

    And one more thing, that 300k server thing MS is boasting about is never clarified upon. Is it the entire Azure capacity? Is just dedicated to X1 and nothing else? Are they located worldwide or just in some hot spots?
    Questions remain. For now, cloud seems just a buzzword used by MS to avoid debates about them having inferior hardware.

    #89 10 months ago