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Sony reconsidering used games DRM following Xbox One reveal – rumour

Monday, 27 May 2013 04:16 GMT By Brenna Hillier

File this one very firmly in the “some guy on the Internet said” category, but this weekend’s hot gossip is that Sony is going to bin plans for a used games DRM system following the Internet’s unhappy reaction to news of a similar scheme for the Xbox One.

The not so farfetched suggestion that Sony might employ a similar system to that announced for the Xbox One arose from a comment made by Geoff Keighley in an episode of Bonus Round, in which he said he had heard that Sony might pursue the same course.

Shortly thereafter, famousmortimer, NeoGAF poster whose Sony predictions have in the past been perfectly correct, said Keighley’s comment is accurate but out of date.

“The gist of it is that Sony is listening to the backlash that Microsoft is getting and they are basing decisions off of this,” they explained in another post.

“I can say, for sure, that the past week’s PR nightmare for MS has not been lost on Sony and they, in fact, do have a used game ‘solution’ working and have been going back and forth for months on whether to use it. This past week is pushing them strongly into ‘Yeah, let’s not use that.’”

Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida, in particular, is very open to feedback, the poster added.

Thanks, Gematsu.

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171 Comments

  1. Night Hunter

    You forgot the most important part of the whole story.

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=568033

    Everyone take to twitter and tweet @yosp @jpkoller @luckylongworth @rohdescott #PS4NoDRM

    The whole thing has been going strong the whole night (if you live in Europe, that is)

    #1 2 years ago
  2. criticalmass

    if Sony does not employ this disgraceful tactic to the gaming community and culture i would have the utmost respect for their company and the direction the are in. i will buy a PS4 at launch and i am sure at that point they would lock up the next gen console war. game over!

    i did go to neogaf and read that, its an excellent start. i sent my tweet to all of them

    #2 2 years ago
  3. Silent Killer01

    I would be very suppressed if MS does something about used games and Sony doesn’t. So if Sony announces no block then Microsoft will cancel plans to block used games.

    #3 2 years ago
  4. Clupula

    @3 – I doubt it. Why else would EA have an exclusive partnership with them? They can’t just NOT use it. There are probably so many deals they made that absolutely depend on it that they’d be in several breaches of contract if MS decided to change their minds.

    #4 2 years ago
  5. SpongebobGAF

    #PS4NoDRM and #PS4USEDGAMES let Sony know that you don’t find this acceptable

    #5 2 years ago
  6. Lewis247

    From the article title it would read as, Xbox One has massive back lash to DRM so sony will consider this aswell due to how many people hate it. Sony would be awesome if they did!

    … Fuck, honestly, if PS4 adopts a non used game and DRM system for PS4 then Nintendo… Somehow.. Nintendo have my money. Fuck the name WiiU but goddamn they have my money. Seeing the trailer for X (WiiU game not Pokemon) again has got me pissing my pants with excitement.

    #6 2 years ago
  7. machy

    Guys u r forgetting something very important … EA won’t wait for sony nor MS to allow used games or not they’ll do it no matter wut sony does

    #7 2 years ago
  8. machy

    and then ubisofth and others will follow just like the online pass@$#%

    #8 2 years ago
  9. criticalmass

    @7 i hate EA and refuse to buy and support their games with money. ill illegally pirate everyone of their games i want to play.

    #9 2 years ago
  10. G1GAHURTZ

    If Sony don’t do this, and MS do, who do you think the pubs/devs are going to back?

    Why would anyone develop a game for a console when they get 0% of 2nd hand sales?

    Let’s be honest, the DRM hate brigade are a tiny (but annoyingly noisy) fraction of the buying public, so why cater for them if it means yet another console generation of retail leeches stealing your profits?

    If I was a dev, I think I’d spend my time focusing on the X1, knowing that I would get a much fairer return on the sales of my product, or I would at least push Sony to use the same system.

    #10 2 years ago
  11. mkotechno

    Sony doesn’t care about consumers (like every company) and will do whatever makes more profit for them.

    If they consider do not block used games is a huge advance to win the generation, sure they will do it. But not because user rights, because XBO model is all around this shit and the XBO public image is a zombie, and just need a push to be totally dead.

    #11 2 years ago
  12. criticalmass

    @10 if they did just make games for ms then they would screw themselves since very few gamers are actually willing to buy that console at this present time. you cant make money from a game if people don’t buy the console its supposed to be played on.

    #12 2 years ago
  13. BlueMaxima

    famousmortimer is a dick anyway, don’t bother believing him. http://i.imgur.com/gRgwL9y.png

    #13 2 years ago
  14. G1GAHURTZ

    @12:

    Well, you say that very few gamers are willing to buy the X1, but I’m not so sure.

    I definitely wouldn’t be so confident about that, when they haven’t even shown any games.

    I’d say that it’s just a noisy handful of repeat posters whose bark is much worse than their bite.

    All you have to do is consider Diablo 3.

    If you believed the internet chatter, it was destined to flop from day 1, due to DRM.

    Yet somehow, 6 million people bought it in the first week.

    It’s now sold over 10m copies, and has had 14m unique players.

    All any dev has to do is look at that example to know that if people want a game, they will buy it, and they will put up with DRM.

    So clearly, history tells us that the noisy few don’t represent the buying public.

    #14 2 years ago
  15. xAKUM3TSUx

    Well, if true now I’m even more hooked! This used game BS is getting out of hand. Current gen used game policies were “alright” so why change. Gosh MS, right now I’m saying listen to your audience. Not Sony’s. Dont you realize that some of YOUR fans (me included) are complaining…If only MS listened :( Only the future can tell I guess.

    #15 2 years ago
  16. POOP CRUSTY

    If you buy a dvd, you can resale it anytime you want, no problem. Same thing with basically everything games shouldn’t be any different. If I don’t find the game good then I should be able to take it back without anything tying it to my account. It’s a flawed system that can only end badly in my opinion.

    #16 2 years ago
  17. Richenbaum

    @12 haha. very few gamers are willing to buy xbox one? because a bunch of people are complaining on the internet? like your favorite, EA? how many people on the internet whine about EA daily? yet they still sell millions of copies of their games. same with windows 8. everyone hates it, but it still sold 60 million copies. xbox one may very well do poorly against ps4 and it might even turn out to genuinely be crappy, but if you think that literally NO ONE is going to buy it still you’re living in fantasy land. (the same fantasy land where you think EA cares that you’re “protesting” by downloading their games I guess)

    edit: oops 14 already beat me to that point. oh well.

    #17 2 years ago
  18. Rocketbilly

    @14:
    Diablo 3 is now getting released without the much hated always-connected DRM on the PS3 and PS4. History will tell you whatever you want if you choose to ignore the parts that don’t fall in line with your preconceived notions.

    The reaction has been small relative to the entire world, but it has been huge relative to the number of people who are actually aware of the reveal. As the word continues to spread, so to does the deeply negative response to what are objectively anti-consumer practices that remove ownership from the consumer.

    #18 2 years ago
  19. Clupula

    Oh, I have no doubt that there are enough mentally ill morons out there who will be willing to give up their privacy and pay for it, just so they can be big floaty guns and get DLC a month early. The Xbone will sell well. Will it sell better than the PS4? That’s debatable. But there’s enough idiots out there to make it profitable, at least.

    #19 2 years ago
  20. redwood

    I think second-hand games IS a big thing for games which help them play more for less., and that mS and sony should think twice about implementing anything that takes this away from games.
    Also anyone who thinks this is NOT an issue, just wait till the next-gen arrives. And no the hate briggade might be a tiny fraction, but they represent a larger part of the silent gamers, you see not everyone has time to talk about this stuff on forums and twitter.

    #20 2 years ago
  21. Clupula

    @11 – Well, of course. But that’s the thing. Sony will use this as a selling point and it will be a very effective selling point. It’s never about caring about the consumer, because that doesn’t get you money.

    But this can be HUGE for Sony.

    As for publishers, I doubt EA would want to miss out on the profits they receive from Playstation products. There’s no way Microsoft can give them enough money to make up for that lost potential income. They’ll give Microsoft exclusive timed DLC and the like, in order to reward them for the DRM practices, but they’re not going to miss out on the millions of potential sales staying multiplatform will give them.

    #21 2 years ago
  22. Clupula

    Also, if I were Gamestop, I’d make Microsoft jump through hoops to even be stocked in my store if they’re going to pull this sort of crap.

    #22 2 years ago
  23. Mjorh

    @19 Yeah i’m kinda sure the number of idiots out there is so much n Xbone gonna sell better.
    Btw this shit is lame! DRM my ass!

    #23 2 years ago
  24. G1GAHURTZ

    @18:

    So are you seriously trying to suggest that D3 was some sort of flop on PC, and Blizzard have given in to those who ‘boycotted’ it, after only selling a ‘measly’ ten million copies?

    For all we know, the PS4 has the exact same DRM system as the X1, so I wouldn’t be so sure about that version, just yet.

    It’s not even the only example of the noisy minority having an almost non-existent effect on whatever they were complaining about, either. There are many more.

    If you believe everything that you read on internet forums, CoD is the worst game in the world, and nobody plays it.

    Anyway, the real issue here is that this is about retail selling the exact same game multiple times, and potentially causing the people who actually made it to suffer.

    I don’t think that most devs will care about noisy fanboys on the internet when they’re selling millions of copies, and getting a fair share of 2nd hand sales.

    #24 2 years ago
  25. fihar

    G1GA is right.
    No major developer/publisher in their right mind would want to support the PS4 over the XBOne.

    Sony’s garnering huge support from indies right now, but let’s be honest here, they’re not exactly a system seller are they?
    In the end, it’s companies like EA, Activision and Ubisoft that would actually matter.
    How do you think the PS4 will fare if the next CoD were to skip it? The PS4 would suffer the same fate as the Wii-U.
    I’m sure it won’t be as drastic as that at launch, but along the line when the major companies realize they’re making twice as much money from the XBOne compared to the PS4? Anything’s possible.

    #25 2 years ago
  26. FeaturePreacher

    I for one would not be opposed to the idea of Sony or Microsoft having a used game drm system that’s applied at the used game distributer. Developers deserve some compensation from all people that play their games. If it is not this, then you will see more online pass schemes that will reach into the single player portion of games in order to get their rightful share of money from used game sales. Or is it that you want more games that sell 3 million copies to be considered a failure.

    #26 2 years ago
  27. Richenbaum

    @26 yep, and then the next step after that will be higher game prices.

    #27 2 years ago
  28. mojo

    “No major developer/publisher in their right mind would want to support the PS4 over the XBOne”

    they have the choice of xbone + ps4 sales or just xbone sales.
    i dont think they will waste half their target audience.

    #28 2 years ago
  29. polygem

    i think G1GA has a point by saying devs and pubs (especially pubs) will get attracted by x1´s DRM policy…at the same time you should think about yourself though, the customer. the industry really tries so hard to wash everyones brain right now. i have no doubt that the x1 will sell. the many complainers right now – and everyone should be complaining about this – are still just a very loud minority, hence why the ms reveal wasn´t focused on them but on the masses, cod, fifa, nfl. ms knows the market, they are not stupid, they know the gamers are just cheap hookers, show them some cool games at e3 and they will buy our machine anyway, they might complain now, but give them halo 5 and a few new ip´s and they will buy it….and you know what, they are right unfortunately. from that perspective their presentaton might look like a complete disaster now but in the end it could turn out to become a real coup and catapult them exactly in the position they wanted to be, where they are dominating the home entertainment market, dealing everything out with tv services, sports leagues, the music and movies industry and game pubs while they have you paying your monthly sub fee plus blocking as much freedom for you as possible with their DRM, while making you pay as much as possible for the content at the same time. that´s what they want, everything else is just a masquerade – a bad one, because it´s actually chrystalclear. for gamers this would be bad news obvioulsy. all you can do now is tell them what you think of all this, look what will happen and then vote with your wallet. i posted this in another thread yesterday and think it could be relevant in this thread as well:

    “i buy new, used, keep games, sell games. i do not collect them, i have some limited editions of games i really loved but many games i trade in, not at gamestop but i give them to friends, sell on amazon…i still buy A LOT of games new, i don’t feel like i am hurting the business at all. i would embrace a sub service that allows me to rent every game digital just for my sub fee and i hope we will see something like this with ps + (or for x1). that’s something i am personally waiting for the most.
    an activation fee for used games like this is just crap though imo.
    game pricing in general isn’t right imo, that’s why the used games business became such an issue to begin with. first the inustry gets the pricing wrong because of their own greed, then they complain that the market reacts to it and now they scream poor devs. lol. do not buy into that guys, it could work just as well and better with a more consumer friendly business modell…that’s something the industry should look at, not just making everything more expensive and less flexible for the consumer. it wont work like this in the future anymore….that’s old capitalism, a system that will have to change in the next 50 years anyway.”

    i think pricing is key, pricing and the interest margin of the profit. if the games would be cheaper devs and pubs would be earning less, still they would earn shitloads. it makes me puke that the industry is pulling off the poor devs card now, it´s just the cake, a lie, do not buy into that.

    #29 2 years ago
  30. Kieran

    Also how much are nxt gen games going to cost ?? if ps4 doesnt block second hand games with fees then more people will buy PS4 thus leading more people buying the game on that platform anyone who buys an x1 theres really something wrong with them or their loaded with money you have pay for online, cable or sky now second hand games microsoft are getting greedy as hell

    #30 2 years ago
  31. Fin

    Either have higher game prices or limits on used games.

    You can’t have both.

    #31 2 years ago
  32. Clupula

    @25 – Ppfft. Like that’s going to happen. Oh yeah, they’re just going to give up 40% of their sales because of this. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. They’ll still make games for the PS4 because there’s no way Microsoft, even with the extra fee, will be able to make up that lost revenue.

    #32 2 years ago
  33. polygem

    @31: why? i mean that´s what they want you to believe but i think that´s far from true. i think they could just look at their interest margin and adjust a screw here and there. i know that´s not how the market works, it only goes in one direction: earn more money – but i do not think that´s right, what really pisses me off though is when the industry tries to tell you it is the only way it can work because that´s just a lie and what i absloutely cannot understand are consumers who swallow all that and even say thank you.

    #33 2 years ago
  34. fihar

    @33
    Because development costs keep rising?

    #34 2 years ago
  35. polygem

    @34: as well as manager earnings

    #35 2 years ago
  36. fihar

    @35
    So you want them to earn less money so that you don’t need to spend more money while at the same time enjoying better quality games?

    #36 2 years ago
  37. G1GAHURTZ

    @33:

    So you’re happy to suggest that the people who actually make the games should just be happy with less profit, but not retail, who do nothing, except exist to open up more stores where there isn’t a need for a store?

    You seem to be missing one simple thing…

    Retail are middle men.

    They aren’t key to the system, and they do nothing except take cuts from here, there and everywhere they possibly can.

    They want you to buy a game, then sell it back to them, so that they can sell it again.

    You pay £39.99, sell for £17.50, your ‘profit’ is -£22.50 for a few hours gameplay…

    They sell for £39.99, buy for £17.50, then sell again for £34.99, their profit is £57.48

    Minimum.

    They take a £40 game, and turn it into a £60 game, or a £75 game, or a £92 game, etc, etc, depending on how many times they can resell it. All the while, the dev only gets the profit from the first sale.

    All that this new system would do is make sure that the devs get a portion of that profit that their game is providing.

    Why do you have a problem with that?

    Do you not agree that it’s a more fair system?

    So instead of the devs/pubs settling for lower profits, why not suggest the exact same thing of the retailers?

    They take a smaller profit, keep used games at the same price, and give a portion to the people who will need it to keep making games.

    That makes more sense to me.

    #37 2 years ago
  38. Bomba Luigi

    Really hope this is true, but its just a rumor for now. My Hopes lying on you Sony, so don’t screw it up and you can have my Money.

    #38 2 years ago
  39. Paranormal Pett

    @10
    If Sony has the reach and the consumer base while MS doesn’t, I can’t see why the developers and publishers would stick with MS, and lose x amount of sales. You have to go where the customers are.

    ‘IF’ Sony come out and do the exact opposite to MS, I would happily support them, and I would hope others would too, even ‘IF’ they don’t have the support of major developers and publishers, they’ll have the indies, and there are a lot of great games to be found.

    Plenty of ‘IFs’ but the point stands, as a business you have to go where the money is, especially if expenses keep on rising.

    #39 2 years ago
  40. Myth

    Interesting – if Sony were to go in the opposite direction on used games, their problem goes from being with angry gamers to being with very angry publishers.

    And if they start jumping ship from the PS4, MS might suddenly have a huge advantage in games.

    #40 2 years ago
  41. Rudemir

    @25
    Your assumptions are incorrect, if the PS4 has sold more then X1 developpers will support it, with or without the DRM. If X1 sales are inferior to the PS4 sales they won’t make more money on the X1 sales plain and simple.

    Als CoD is the worst example you could give simply because Activision doesn’t worry that much about second hand sales with CoD. With Elite and all the seperate map packs they make enough money and with the massive sales they won’t skip an entire console for the sake of DRM issues.

    @ G1Ga

    I get where you’re coming from but I think retailers have a lot of influence on the mass market too. Look at Gamestop for instance. If the PS4 won’t have a similar DRM system which console do you think they’ll push more? In this case they’ll make more money if the PS4 sells better and they’ll probably advice customers to buy the PS4 over the X1 purely out of their own interest. Also if Sony are smart enough to promote their stance on DRM they could push sales even more.

    I’m very curious to see how Sony will tackle this issue.

    #41 2 years ago
  42. monkeygourmet

    And whenwill they announce online gaming isn’t ‘free’ anymore?

    #42 2 years ago
  43. ps3fanboy

    If you think WendyField21′s story is terrific, a month-ago G1GAHURTZ basically also brought in $9948, grafting a 40 hours month from home. His PC-MASTER RACE has been doing this for 12-months and made over $9949 part time On their PC. This unbelievable good advice is available here -> IShitUNOT.com

    #43 2 years ago
  44. Lengendaryboss

    @PS3fanboy
    Don’t copy the formula of the spambots, they will rise up in anger :D

    #44 2 years ago
  45. polygem

    @36:
    “So you want them to earn less money so that you don’t need to spend more money while at the same time enjoying better quality games?”

    exactly and you know what, it wouldn´t hurt them, it wouldn´t hurt the games either, why? because it would still be a very very profitable business.

    it is called sustainability and in the long run it would be the better model, it would be fairer for everyone really.

    @37: when was the last time you checked the games on demand prices? are those cheaper ore even more expensive? last time i checked i could buy gears 3 on demand for 69,99 while i was able to order on amazon for 39,99. do you really think it´s about the retail? no it´s not. break it down to what it´s all about: greed. it really is just that simple and there are alternative strategies.

    all i am saying is that i don´t think it´s fair to only impose the costs to one side: consumer. they can easily look at their own profit margins, adjust stuff here and there, cut some manager profits but give dev cloud animator x guy a little more, focus more on fair digital pricing, hey maybe even invent a digital rental system, make a digital version of a game and then -heeeey- make it much cheaper (because, no retail right)…but that´s not what´s happening. they scream poor devs but mean poor few top 50 right up there in the corp.

    #45 2 years ago
  46. Moonwalker1982

    I think we all know that both will do this. EA didn’t drop the online pass only for MS, you know.

    #46 2 years ago
  47. fihar

    @42
    If anything, the Wii has proven that hardware sales doesn’t always translate to more developer support even though that was pretty much an isolated case, really.

    What would happen if both consoles are selling pretty evenly like now? Why invest the same amount of money on the PS4 when the XBOne could give you a considerably larger profit margin for the same amount of money?

    Completely missed the point there buddy. Don’t get hung up on what I use as an example.
    The way I see it, the only way Sony could get away with not using DRM and to secure support from major companies is for the PS4 to completely outsell the XBOne, which I consider to be unrealistic at best.

    @46
    Very, very profitable business? Really?
    Tell that to Square-Enix, THQ and 38 Studios.
    Tomb Raider sold a lot of copies and still fail to break even. So did Darksiders 2 and Kingdoms of Amalur.
    SCE Liverpool is gone, Black Rock Studios is gone, Bizarre Creations is gone. That’s 3 respectable racing game studios that has no longer existed.
    You might want to stop being selfish and look at the industry for what it really is.
    And don’t you dare tell me that it’s their own fault that they had to close down.

    #47 2 years ago
  48. Rudemir

    @48

    Using the Wii as an example? Sure most developpers dropped the Wii as a development platform (NOW) but thats only because software sales never took off except for Nintendo titles. But the first three years developpers jumped at the possibility to develop for Nintendo’s console if you look at the games available for the Wii it’s pretty hard to ignore.

    But even if PS4 won’t outsell the X1 lets say it’s 50-50 developpers won’t drop support for PS4 because that market is still to large to ignore.

    #48 2 years ago
  49. FeaturePreacher

    For those who think developers are just greedy, take a look at where denying developers fair compensation could lead to.

    http://www.siliconera.com/2013/05/26/square-enix-will-make-console-like-games-for-smartphones-and-tablets/

    What are you going do when devs run to terrible button-less platforms where there’s no chance to trade games?

    #49 2 years ago
  50. polygem

    i for one wasn´t talking a bout game developers here and i am indeed talking about FAIR compensation

    #50 2 years ago
  51. sh4dow

    Haha now this would really be something. A company not just listening to the feedback THEY are getting but even to the one competitors are getting? Quite surprising that they care that much. I guess PS3 sales weren’t what they had hoped for and they plan on trying a lot harder with the PS4…

    #51 2 years ago
  52. Fin

    The cost of games does not go up with inflation, but everything else in the production of a game does.

    So, devs and publishers have tried to make up this shortfall in several different ways:

    Microtransactions
    DLC
    Online passes
    Subscriptions
    Limited editions
    Used game blocking/revenue share (same as online pass I guess)

    Either you live with one of the above, or you have higher game prices.
    Otherwise, you’re basically saying “give me exactly what I’ve always had, but I want to pay 2-4% less for it each year“.

    Something’s gotta give.

    #52 2 years ago
  53. polygem

    @48: it´s the fault of wrong business decissions, mismanagement, misinterpretation of the market and demand and wrong pricing in most cases, yes…but not because of the used games business. the used games business only had the chance to become a problem because of the wrong strategies and one dimensional pricing to begin with. it´s the demon the industry created by itself. letting the consumer now handle that beast for them is just plain wrong imho.
    hey, i love games, i even purchased the demon´s souls limited edition a week ago, after already buying, playing and finishing the standard retail version and knowing it will come to ps+ , which i subscribed to. just because i want to support the devs: because i love the game. i want to support devs ffs – if i think it´s worth it that is. so that´s not what i am talking about: i just do not believe any second that a fairer pricing plus great profits couldn´t walk hand in hand by developing clever and fair business strategies for everyone.

    #53 2 years ago
  54. fihar

    @49
    Which leads me back to my original argument.
    They will definitely support the PS4. At launch.
    5 years from now? I’m not so sure.

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree then. It is in my opinion that developers will eventually stop supporting the PS4 (assuming they’re not implementing any used-game fee) unless it completely outsold the XB1.

    #54 2 years ago
  55. polygem

    i loved the 360, i wanted the nextbox. i still could become a miserable weakling after they showed the games for it but i really really do think it is important to not support stuff like this.

    #55 2 years ago
  56. Kabby

    The notion of restricting ownership and re-sale of something you bought is beyond ridiculous.

    Dealing with this bullshit since Steam made DRM ‘acceptable’ has become increasingly difficult.

    #56 2 years ago
  57. ps3fanboy

    If you think WendyField21′s story is terrific. G1GAHURTZ looked at the XBOne $18882 yearly cost, he be certain that his mom was really bringing home enough money part time at the computar before buy.. His uncles cousin are now taking a loan on their apartment, so they can afford to purchase the brand new XBOne. Go to -> IShitUNOT.com for more terrific stories.

    #57 2 years ago
  58. zoopdeloop

    @47 surely,but also they have exclusive deals with MS.Sony can counter that in their agreement.go software-DLC exclusive with the opposing platform,no DRM system for Sony.

    Publishers won’t abandon Sony just like that just because they will lose some revenue from 2nd hand games,especially if ps4 is the first choice of most gamers.
    Just like they didn’t abandon 360 where even though they sold the most they also lost some millions from the get go,due to pirated games

    #58 2 years ago
  59. ps3fanboy

    just in the news…
    http://www.bubblews.com/news/561666-ps4-won-xboxfan-committed-suicide

    #59 2 years ago
  60. Lengendaryboss

    @60
    I don’t know what to say…

    #60 2 years ago
  61. G1GAHURTZ

    @42:

    Yeah, it’s a tricky situation. Sure, the retailers have some sway, but they’d be playing a dangerous game if they tried to promote the PS4 at the expense of of the X1 for that reason.

    Remember, it’s the specialist retailers who thrive off of 2nd hand sales, but they’re not the only retailers around. MS could do a number of things, if pushed, including only supplying non-specialist retailers, or moving towards an online only system (like Steam/iTunes/etc) that eliminates retail completely.

    I agree, and also think it’ll be interesting to see what Sony have planned.

    @46:

    You’re acting like every dev in the world is sitting on millions that it doesn’t need (could hardly be further from the truth), but why are you ignoring the “greed” of retail?

    Are retail not greedy too?

    The problem is, when retail gets your money, they put none of it back into game development.

    Not a penny.

    all i am saying is that i don´t think it´s fair to only impose the costs to one side: consumer. they can easily look at their own profit margins, adjust stuff here and there, cut some manager profits…

    What about retail? Can’t they cut their profits, too? We’ve just established that 2nd hand sales don’t benefit the industry whatsoever, so why would you prefer retail to keep on making millions, while developers lose their jobs?? Why are you ignoring these questions?

    Instead of GAME/Gamestop/etc making £17.50 on a 2nd hand game, they can make £14, while still keeping it on the shelf at the same price. The remaining £3.50 can go to the people who made the game. (Guesstimate figures based on recent speculation)

    You pay the same, you sell for the same amount, retail earns less.

    What is the problem with that??

    No one, absolutely no one, is blocking you from buying/selling used games, either. The only way that prices go up, is if retail decides that it wants to make the same amount that it was making before, while still giving the percentage to devs/pubs that MS requires of them.

    #61 2 years ago
  62. KrazyKraut

    I think its bullshit. They didnt reconsidering it, just some folks were afraid that they will do it so they called a Twitter action to keep things like they are.

    It comes from NeoGaf…. :)

    #62 2 years ago
  63. Moonwalker1982

    Although i don’t give a damn about used games, i can see why it’s a problem for people who do buy a lot of used games. But if MS is going to do it, Sony is too. I honestly think Sony was planning on doing that since day one. There answers have been curious when asked about used games. I recall them saying ‘Yeah of course PS4 will run used games’ . Ok, but so does XB1. But what’s the catch? I think they also said they will leave it to the publisher and who knows..if that’s true..MS might do that too. It’s really funny how people talk about X1 things as if they are facts but nothing is set in stone. MS has now said several times that they are still considering options and nothing is certain yet.

    Along with this used games issue, a lot of folks complained about the tv stuff too during the reveal of the X1. And i saw them putting up PS4 avatars on forums all of a sudden and saying bullshit like…i’m going with PS4. X1 is done, Sony’s at least not going to focus on this. Oh lord…right, i guess that’s why it was said that Sony’s PS4 is to be the central device in the living room during GDC? Hilarious. People obviously don’t seem to like the TV options, then simply don’t use them. Peolpe really are damn good in making a big deal of nothing. Wait for E3, wait for awesome games. Several have already been confirmed and it shows that MS is actually investing quite much in new IP’s, let’s apreciate that and lets be happy they ain’t just playing it safe with ANOTHER Halo, Gears and so on.

    #63 2 years ago
  64. CyberMarco

    can we ban ps3fanboy please?

    #64 2 years ago
  65. reask

    It,s actually quite funny reading MS doomed threads all over the internet.
    Kinda reminds me of the Wii launch when it was much the same really yet look how that turned out.

    Difference with the one and the wii is it would appear the gaming specs are pretty much in line with the PS4 so MS will be able to deliver for the whole range of gamers out there whilst appealing to the fad crowd as well.

    Mind you having said all that I am pretty sure Sony will be producing an all round device as well seen as the 3 was a multi hub.

    Interesting times ahead methinks. :)

    #65 2 years ago
  66. polygem

    @62: i am not trying to defend retailers but i think they´re not the cause of the problem, not the root of it if you will. i think it starts in business decissions that the pubs are making, which games make sense, are profitable, what are we offering to our customers? what can be done so they will like and enjoy our product and keep the product, what keeps stuff interesting, what can we do that they want to keep the game after playing it once, can we adjust stuff in our corp? needs manager xyz really that much, shouldn´t we cut a little here or there to push dev xyz a little more, do we really need to sink millions into that exclusivity deal, couldn´t we just take the cash and make some smaller but still profitable products that gamers will like and give us more cred and trust in our brand in the long run?

    many decissions pubs make to gain more profit aren´t so good for devs and certainly not the gamer, if anything i think they lost it a long time ago. let´s take a look at games like demon´s or dark souls. they sold well. not as well as cod but it was profitable. we need more of exactly this.

    EDIT: i bet many people keep games like this. why, because they feel like it was a great experience, they accomplished something by playing it, became something back. value. they can also replay the game over and over again EDIT END.

    i´d like to see numbers of which games get traded in the most. i bet it is the more shitty ones and that´s the key really. just make great games that a gamer will love and wants to keep, price it fairly and voila….problem solved. everyone wins.

    now look at digital pricing….no retailer involved, still more expensive than buying at retail??? there you see what counts the most and where the root of all that lies: game industry itself. it´s clear and it is visible just by looking at your games on demand stuff.
    i think sony is slowly realising this and trying to adress things, with ps+, games sales, better pricing than demand (at least sometimes)…they are trying to walk that path now, it seems/ i hope. it is something i want to see more of and it is something i want to support because it is the right thing to do for devs and for the gamer.

    #66 2 years ago
  67. fihar

    @54
    How typical, blaming the companies for every single business decision they make. No amount of business strategies or management could overcome the very simple fact that game development costs keep rising.
    What, you think none of the studios I mentioned actually tried to do that?

    Take SCE Liverpool for example. They let go of the F1 license because it wasn’t making enough profits.
    Instead of developing an all-new Wipeout for the PS3, they decide to port the PSP version and release them for cheap on the PSN store. It’s still one of the best-looking PS3 game to date.
    And yet they still have to close down.
    Square-Enix as well. Deus EX, Sleeping Dogs, Hitman, and Tomb Raider all sells pretty well, and yet they still fails to generate enough profit, why? Simple, because the development costs were too big. And because all of them are SP-centric games, you have to wonder how many people actually bought the game thinking that they’ll eventually sell it?
    I admit that Bizarre and Black Rock Studios made a mistake by releasing their games so close to each other, but that just underlines my point.
    The game industry is so ridiculously unforgiving right now that even a single mistake could end up on a studio closing down.

    You seem to think that online passes and DRMs are just companies trying everything to make more money, when in reality, with layoffs and game studios closing left and right it really is their way of trying to survive in this economy and rising development costs.

    You can spin it anyway you want, but the simple fact is anyone who buys used games are exactly the same as pirates.
    They enjoy the developer’s work without actually giving them any money.
    You’re naive if you think that the used-games industry isn’t slowly killing the developers, how do you think major retailers managed to survive all this time?
    You can’t just expect that they can keep churning out Uncharteds, God of Wars and Halos without us making some sacrifice.
    You can’t ask for cheap prices and AAA title at the same time.
    Look at Kickstarter right now, none of the games on display have the same production quality that Uncharted has.

    “i´d like to see numbers of which games get traded in the most. i bet it is the more shitty ones and that´s the key really. just make great games that a gamer will love and wants to keep, price it fairly and voila….problem solved. everyone wins.”

    Wow, I actually envy you. You still have your head up in the clouds.
    That is so not gonna work. You want to know why? Subjectivity.

    Search for any Beyond article from this site and count how many people have already said that they’re planning on renting the game or buying it used. I’m pretty sure it’s going to score above 80 in Metacritic which would be described as critically acclaimed, but that won’t stop a lot of people from claiming that it doesn’t deserve to be called a game.

    And priced fairly is such a vague term really.
    On what would you base it on? Some would say quality, some would say length, but no one, not even me, would say cost.
    Why? Because we’re such selfish bastards that we never think about the people who made the game.

    You’re greatly oversimplifying things.

    #67 2 years ago
  68. Paranormal Pett

    @69 when 3.6 and 3.4 million copies sold for hitman and tomb raider respectively, isn’t enough, then you have some serious business strategy issues. Take Tomb Raider. How much money and time could have been saved if they didn’t tack on a cruddy MP. I don’t trade in games, but that is my choice, just like if someone else wants to trade it in they can. That choice should not be taken away from the consumer.

    This person puts it better then I ever could,

    Originally Posted by faceless007: View Post
    Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it’s inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it’s a threat to the industry’s health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations–consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

    I don’t think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that’s the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn’t properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what “property ownership” means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

    The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn’t good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can’t find a way to make money off the primary market — even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and “expanding the audience” and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer — then, if I may be so blunt, fuck it. It doesn’t deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn’t need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

    I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry’s problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they’re discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

    So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it’s just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that’s why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn’t at this end.

    #68 2 years ago
  69. Lord Gremlin

    Simply put, Sony has a chance to monopolize next gen. To make the situation identical to PS2 era. They just need to release fully offline console with no online DRM. Why would they pass this chance?
    No reason.
    4-5 years down the line when xbone is dead they can introduce such system anyway. Now that they’re a monopoly.

    #69 2 years ago
  70. Dark

    http://i.minus.com/iGfMFmkUpu2gf.png

    #70 2 years ago
  71. reask

    @71.
    With all due respect to you but if you think the so called hardcore gamer is going to win this gen for either I reckon you are going to br disappointed.

    How many cobf halo gamers buy there copy and play nothing else till the next one comes out.
    Quite a few I imagine.

    At the end of the day all these companies want the console to be the entry rather than the end.

    #71 2 years ago
  72. CyberMarco

    @fihar

    “You can’t ask for cheap prices and AAA title at the same time.
    Look at Kickstarter right now, none of the games on display have the same production quality that Uncharted has.”

    Maybe the market is over-saturated with many “AAA-blockbuster” titles, where every pub/dev thinks that every time they make a game it’s going to be the best next thing after sliced bread. The “business-game” they are playing is based on a, many time proven, failed capitalist system.

    If you didn’t notice the whole global financial system is on recension and still they pretend to maximize their profits, and in some cases investing even less.

    If that isn’t for the lolz, then what?

    #72 2 years ago
  73. ps3fanboy

    Even though CyberMarco’s XBOneblOg is astonishing, on monday G1GAHURTZ nearly got a heart attack from having earned $9366 this month, and that is ten grand more than last month. It’s really the most comfortable job he have had. G1GAHURTZ actually started 9 months ago and almost straight away started pushing cash outta his ass, like over $70 per/hr. Follow the unbelievable details here, IShitUNOT.com CHECK IT OUT!

    #73 2 years ago
  74. CyberMarco

    ^ Am I an xbot now?

    On a serious note, I wonder why the VG24/7 staff isn’t taking action to ban some trolling individuals…

    #74 2 years ago
  75. Cobra951

    @69 (fihar): “. . . anyone who buys used games are exactly the same as pirates.”

    Oh really. Tell me, if you lend a friend your bicycle, are you the same as a pirate? Your friend should have bought his own bike, and not used either. Brand new or arrest him. Right?

    Edit: @76: (Cybermarco): Wow . . . yeah, man. Some people are asleep at the wheel here. That shit became a no-doubter as of today.

    #75 2 years ago
  76. polygem

    @Paranormal Pet (awesome screenname btw!):
    great post and great find that post from facelessJamesBond. i absolutely agree with it. he/she nailed exactly what i was so unable to explain myslef here. i blame it on the language barrier….but yeah, exactly this. nailed it.

    #76 2 years ago
  77. fihar

    @70
    You sir, should think of writing as a career. That was an actually good read.
    But doesn’t it comeback to us in the end?
    You talk of the industry’s focus on, big-budget explosives AAA titles and short-lasting appeal that eventually leads to used-game sales.
    We were the one who bought those games in the first place or rather the 18-34 dudebros demographic, as you put it, did.
    Is it really wrong that I actually feel responsible for the decisions that other lesser-minded gamer did?

    You’re fine with letting the industry fall apart because of this but I’m not.
    The way I see it, the blocking of used-games and AAA titles are necessary evils. It’s still inside my tolerance level.

    I know what you’re saying, I can’t just accept it for what it is, but it is what it is and I guess I just don’t care how they’re treating me as long as I can play their games.
    Edit: I actually just realized after reading this how pathetic I must’ve seemed like.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think you can just judge the game industry based on other similar industries.
    I’m not entirely sure what you meant by “other packaged good on the planet”.

    #77 2 years ago
  78. polygem

    “I guess I just don’t care how they’re treating me as long as I can play their games.”

    i hope you know: that´s some serious addictive behaviour ;)

    no offense man…

    #78 2 years ago
  79. ps3fanboy

    @76 CyberMarco, you come here and act like the holier of holy xbot and demand things to be done. what do you expect?… you get ridiculed by your own action numb nut!

    #79 2 years ago
  80. polygem

    @CyberMarco…remember man ALWAYS REMEMBER: DO NO FEED!

    #80 2 years ago
  81. Lengendaryboss

    @Poly
    THE TROLL, thats what comes next right? :D

    #81 2 years ago
  82. polygem

    well, you said that ;)

    #82 2 years ago
  83. ps3fanboy

    well said, don’t feed the troll… and CyberMarco is clearly a troll.

    #83 2 years ago
  84. fihar

    @80
    Yeah, I just realized that now.
    My God, I must’ve sounded like some slave-like obedient gamer.
    All that conspiracy BS about companies brainwashing us might have some truth after all.

    @77
    You are not seriously comparing a video game to a bike.
    You might as well compare a PS3 game to the PS3 itself.

    #84 2 years ago
  85. Bomba Luigi

    Lets be honest, theres a Troll in every Human Being.

    #85 2 years ago
  86. CyberMarco

    Seriously now, I’m a troll now? lol hahahahaha!

    What did I demand exactly?

    Oh man, but yeah as poly said, no food for you!

    #86 2 years ago
  87. G1GAHURTZ

    @68:

    Sure, I agree that the industry is deeply at fault for putting itself in a boom or bust situation.

    It’s still a relatively new industry that’s learning as it goes, and the problems caused by the mistakes of 10 or so years ago are only just beginning to be identified.

    However, it could be argued that a big part of the reason for those problems is a failure to address what it’s trying to address right now.

    It’s a deep discussion, and I don’t think I could do it justice in a few short paragraphs, but what I will say, is that the current correlation between rising development costs and game prices has to stop eventually.

    It’s unsustainable.

    And the more that the industry loses out to 2nd hand sales, the longer that correlation is going to continue, and the worse the situation is going to get.

    It might well be a bitter pill, but ‘growing up’ and making tough decisions for the long term is something that the industry has to do before it destroys itself.

    I don’t think that the ‘just make better games’ argument can be taken seriously, when there are countless examples of high scoring games that sell relatively feeble amounts, and critically panned games that sell many, many millions.

    As for digital pricing, I wouldn’t take today’s Games on Demand prices as a serious indication of the entire future of the industry.

    I’d be more inclined to look at Steam’s pricing, because unlike MS, Valve doesn’t have to give retail the idea that it’s not doing anything to cannibalise their sales.

    #87 2 years ago
  88. G1GAHURTZ

    @70:

    Please tell me where that post was made.

    Do you have a link?

    #88 2 years ago
  89. Wen3

    Look at the positive side people maybe if sony goes this route games will be cheaper that is the only way I can accept this do your DRM thing but make games cheaper cancel the who second hand market but games should be cheaper that is a win for me

    #89 2 years ago
  90. Cobra951

    @86 (fihar): A PS3 and a PS3 game? Perfect. They are both products, and I have the same rights in each one. Namely, each is mine to do with as I see fit for my personal use. I can’t legally copy the game, just like I can’t legally set up a shop to reverse engineer and mass-produce PS3 clones. However, I am free to sell my legitimate instances of both of these products anytime I choose, without permission from their manufacturers. I don’t need to give Sony a cut of the used sale price either, just like Schwinn wouldn’t be entitled to a cut if I sold my bike, and Ford wouldn’t get any money from me if I sold my car.

    #90 2 years ago
  91. Clupula

    @91 – Right. Because games are going to get cheaper.

    #91 2 years ago
  92. Phoenixblight

    @92

    “just like Schwinn wouldn’t be entitled to a cut if I sold my bike, and Ford wouldn’t get any money from me if I sold my car.”

    But they do when when it breaks down and wants to repair it or if the owner wants to buy a warranty it all goes through the manufacturer.

    #92 2 years ago
  93. ps3fanboy

    @91 Wen3, are you crazy??? go cheaper and give up your right as a customer?.. jesus christ… this is the dumbest thing i have ever heard anyone say. what next time?? you gonna allow THEM to have a straw right into your wallet for sucking because its cheaper??… there is a line that need to be drawn and it starts here with xbone.

    #93 2 years ago
  94. Joe Musashi

    @92 I think you need to read the terms of the items whose access you have bought.

    JM

    #94 2 years ago
  95. CyberMarco

    @94 “But they do when when it breaks down and wants to repair it or if the owner wants to buy a warranty it all goes through the manufacturer.”

    The same can be said for games, there are DLC, expansions etc. that one can buy with a second hand game.

    #95 2 years ago
  96. Phoenixblight

    @97

    That doesn’t count as those that have bought the game new will also buy the DLC. Used game industry is worth 1 billion freaking dollars that of which none of the publishers and developers see a dime of. In what market can some company buy a game from you for 10th of the price and then resell it almost 8-9X the cost? No. Gamestop and the like need to be giving their cut to the publisher and developer. They have been riding the gravy train too long.

    You either pick to have Online Passes or something that is not as intrusive and deceptive. I Prefer something like Xbone as its Gamestop that will be paying for it.

    #96 2 years ago
  97. grizzlycake

    @98

    They do really. I’d agree with that. However, that’s a problem for the publishers and Sony, … to figure out. We consumers shouldn’t have to be victims for their problems.

    What you’re saying is that you’re willing to give up your rights as a consumer so that the games industry doesn’t have to deal with what’s what? Is that it? Or am I mistaken?

    #97 2 years ago
  98. ps3fanboy

    100th post, yippee kai yay mother f……

    #98 2 years ago
  99. Phoenixblight

    @99

    What rights am I giving away? Am I able to sell the game? Yes. Am I able to go to gamestop and buy a used game? Yes. Is my family able to play the game that is on the system? Yes. So where did I give up my “rights”?

    #99 2 years ago
  100. grizzlycake

    @101

    …seriously?

    #100 2 years ago
  101. Cobra951

    @96 (JM): Why? The concept of private ownership has been established for a very long time. The printed wishes of corporations to erode that concept get the force of law only if we allow it unopposed. Some people do bow down and give up their freedoms, sadly. I do not. They can print whatever they want on their boxes. Once I’ve paid for something, it’s mine, and I will treat it as such. I have never, and will never, buy products which impose technological barriers to this paradigm. So, for instance, I will never buy an Xbox One unless its abusive DRM goes away.

    #101 2 years ago
  102. Phoenixblight

    @102

    Yes seriously.

    #102 2 years ago
  103. Joe Musashi

    @103 You have not taken ownership of the material. Your payment is for access to the material under specific terms. Ownership always remains with the publisher. Any arguments based on consumer ownership are moot.

    JM

    #103 2 years ago
  104. fihar

    @92
    *sigh* The problem is, video games aren’t as concrete as a PS3 or a bike.

    Here’s an example.
    You just completed Sleeping Dogs (it’s what I’m currently playing atm). You really liked it but since you’re completely finished with it and have absolutely no use for it anymore, you decided to sell it.
    After you sold it, you still have a memory of your experience of playing that game. You’ve ‘absorbed’ the actual value of the game in a sense.
    It’s not the same thing with cars or bikes is it?

    If by selling the game you also remove each and every memory of you playing the game, then it’s comparable.
    Video games provide you with an experience, they don’t actually have any use unlike cars or bikes.

    #104 2 years ago
  105. grizzlycake

    @106

    So what about DVDs, books, music, etc… which would be highly comparable by your standards?

    #105 2 years ago
  106. CyberMarco

    @98 “Gamestop and the like need to be giving their cut to the publisher and developer.”

    As much as I dislike GameStop like the next guy, I don’t think they own them nothing. Those retail chains didn’t pop-out like mushrooms in the rain. They have their corresponding investments in their infrastructures and managed to be what they are by providing their services, whatever those are.

    I haven’t bought or traded any game with Gamestop because their prices are ludicrously higher than buying a new copy from the UK. I tend to buy a used copy or two from other retailers where I can find some decent pricing, like 7-15€ for a used copy.

    #106 2 years ago
  107. Phoenixblight

    @107

    Try again None of those things have cost as much as games nor their development.

    @108

    You will still get those the difference is the chain will pay for it. So for example you sell your game to gamestop for 5$ then they turn around and sell the game for 40$(8X) with how MS has spoke about Xbone, you will still sell the game for 5$ and Gamestop will still sell it for 40$ the difference is under the hood which instead of getting a 35$ return they are getting a 25$ return.

    #107 2 years ago
  108. grizzlycake

    @109

    And what does that matter?

    #108 2 years ago
  109. Ballisticon

    @109

    Movies cost waaaaay more than games.

    #109 2 years ago
  110. CyberMarco

    @109

    And because of that we must “obey” on whatever the industry dictates? Pff… It’s not the consumer’s problem if the industry can’t find a way to make its investments more viable and worthy.

    Edit.

    Still you wont be able to give away your copy without having to deal with Microsoft’s interference. It’s good for you to be able to get 5-10$ from Gamestop for a used copy, but can’t understand why someone would buy a seconf-hand game from them at those prices.

    Personally I import games from the UK mostly, and my second-hand games are bought from local informatic/multimedia shop, that aren’t affiliated to any big multinational enterprise. Sure, I’m not helping the dev/pub, but I’m helping my local financial market.

    On a side note, with these implementations MS is willing to make, you wont be able to gift your games to a relative or exchange games with your friends.

    #110 2 years ago
  111. G1GAHURTZ

    @107:

    ‘DVDs’ make their profit (if any) in the cinema, before they even go to DVD.

    You could try, but I don’t think you’d get very far trying to sell 2nd hand cinema tickets.

    Books are incredibly cheap to produce, and it costs next to nothing to write a story.

    I’m pretty sure that the book industry isn’t going to collapse because charity shops sell dog eared copies of a book, that originally cost £2.99, for 50p.

    etc, etc…

    Like I said before, console games can cost anywhere between $10-100m to produce, and on average, it takes 2-3 years.

    No matter how big the studio, if there’s no profit on any game, there’s a very real chance that they won’t be making another one ever again.

    Used game sales are like cigarettes. They might provide a cheap hit, but they’re cancerous to the industry, and eventually they’re going to kill it.

    #111 2 years ago
  112. Phoenixblight

    @111

    Wrong go look it up most movies are actually cheaper its the big blockbusters that cost more but because of accessibilty(that of which games have yet to have) they easily make a return because of the brand name.

    #112 2 years ago
  113. grizzlycake

    Why do I have the feeling that certain users on here work for publishers and the like?

    #113 2 years ago
  114. G1GAHURTZ

    It’s not the consumer’s problem if the industry can’t find a way to make its investments more viable and worthy.

    What does game quality have to do with sales and trade in figures?

    Where is the proof that every good game makes a profit, and that every bad game is traded in?

    #114 2 years ago
  115. fihar

    @107
    The closest thing would be the movie and the music industry, but they also have very large market compared to video games.
    And importantly, movie tickets and audio CDs don’t cost as much as your standard video games.

    #115 2 years ago
  116. JGMR

    It’s also time to put an end to that nonsense called DLC.

    #116 2 years ago
  117. Phoenixblight

    @112

    They have been looking for ways with DLC, microtransactions, online passes, etc. Yet the gamers want more hardware power, more eye candy, more gameplay, more content and that isn’t cheap. Avg developer gets paid 40-60k and the big developers have 100-200 employees not to mention all the overhead with 3d software licenses, middleware licenses, studio utilities. Then they have to market the game which can cost as much as development. Then they have disc manufacturers, retailers, actors, all putting their hands in the cookie jar that of which the publisher will only get possibly 15$ out of the 60$ per game.

    #117 2 years ago
  118. CyberMarco

    @116 Did I mention anything regarding quality and sales figure? I just pointed out that if the industry doesn’t make large profits out of its investments then something may be wrong by their part. Is it viable to invest 1/10/100 millions of $ so their profits can sky-rocket up to an exaggerated value?

    #118 2 years ago
  119. grizzlycake

    @117

    And things like DRM, no trading, etc. will help broaden the market? I think that’s a firm no. All and I really mean all of my friends who are even just a little bit into gaming are very much turned off by these practices and say (of course, that doesn’t always translate to actions) that they won’t buy something if it uses what’s being proposed right now.

    I know that you want the industry to survive and all that. But I reiterate, we shouldn’t be victims of an industry that doesn’t know how to do business.

    #119 2 years ago
  120. Richenbaum

    @106 that’s ridiculous. first off, since games aren’t magically beamed directly into our brains yet, you are getting a product with a use. a disc that goes in a system that allows you to access and interact with said experience. without hardware and interaction the “experience” is entirely useless and just like a bike once you sell it, it’s gone. period.

    and hey you could use the same broken analogy on a bike too. “hey I just rode my bike around. now I’ve gotten the experience of what riding a bike is like. now to sell it and never ride one again.” and why don’t we do that? because memories and reality aren’t the same perhaps?

    I too would like to know how this works in your mind with music and movies. do you just buy cds and blu rays, use them once, then throw them out because “there’s nothing more you can get from this”?

    #120 2 years ago
  121. ps4some

    It’s okay, Sony is listening

    https://twitter.com/KazHiraiCEO/status/339018421897420802

    #121 2 years ago
  122. Phoenixblight

    @121

    Please show me where you are a victim. What “right” have they violated? You still haven’t answered this. Please also why are you are at it show me where you have “rights”, the TOS clearly states you are paying to access the game not that you own the game and its contents.

    DO you not buy games from Steam? You can’t sell, loan to a friend. People don’t have an issue with that.

    #122 2 years ago
  123. Richenbaum

    @123 heh!

    #123 2 years ago
  124. G1GAHURTZ

    @120:

    I just pointed out that if the industry doesn’t make large profits out of its investments then something may be wrong by their part.

    You are right.

    Something is wrong on their part…

    …and they’re trying to fix it.

    Since, I think it’s clear now that quality doesn’t directly correlate with sales/trade in numbers, can you think of a better way, than what MS is proposing, to allow pubs/devs a fair return on their hard work?

    Perhaps if you can and you suggest it to them, they will do it.

    If not, I wouldn’t be surprised if they carried on doing what they’re doing, without worrying about what the internet minority says.

    #124 2 years ago
  125. grizzlycake

    @124

    Just to give an example. A few years down the road, I wanna buy Last Guardian PS4 whatever. Almost no store has it new though (just as with SotC) so I decide to buy it used.

    So I buy this game. I go home with it and what’s that? I have to pay ANOTHER time just in order to play it? That already gets me very pissed off. But okay, let’s just say I’d pay the fee.

    A few weeks later my friend also wants to play this game. So I’m like, hey dude, just borrow it from me! Same goes for him, he comes home with MY game. BAM! More fees. What if he also buys it in order to play. Fine, he gives it back to after he completed it.

    But oh lord! Fate does strike! My console bricked and for some reason I don’t know the password or there was an outage (a la PSN hax) where there’s a need to reset stuff. I have forgotten my password and the stupid questions they ask, or they make you have a new email (something which happened to me on PSN). In the end, I can’t access my account. My games are lost…unless I pay another goddamn fee right?

    What if by any chance I want to start a new account, I’m sick of all the achievements and whatever. I’m sick of my name (on PSN) and I want a new account. What now, fees once again?

    As for Steam. I use it a lot but I’ve never bought a game through Steam itself. I buy almost every humble indie bundles and use steam to play them, I’ve given quite a few games to my girlfriend with their non-drm practices (non-steam). I play TF2 and L4D2 but the latter was gifted to me. And, as another user has pointed out: there a lot more benefits to Steam which may make it a more understandable pill to swallow for some. On top of that, which has also been adresses, they’re looking at ways on how to use 2nd hand sales. I’m afraid borrowing isn’t possible or at the very least very hard to do with digital distribution.

    I hope I’ve answered enough questions now.

    #125 2 years ago
  126. Phoenixblight

    ” I buy this game. I go home with it and what’s that? I have to pay ANOTHER time just in order to play it? That already gets me very pissed off. But okay, let’s just say I’d pay the fee.”

    You are wrong, here. Xbone system the retailer would pay that fee so there would be no additional fee.

    “But oh lord! Fate does strike! My console bricked and for some reason I don’t know the password or there was an outage (a la PSN hax) where there’s a need to reset stuff. I have forgotten my password and the stupid questions they ask, or they make you have a new email ”

    Hahah Strawman at its finest. Thanks for playing.

    #126 2 years ago
  127. ps3fanboy

    Phoenixblight work for EA, so now you all know. don’t bother try to talk sense to that numb nut. if you try it will be like an obfuscating politician trying to evade the question.

    #127 2 years ago
  128. G1GAHURTZ

    @127:

    So I buy this game. I go home with it and what’s that? I have to pay ANOTHER time just in order to play it? That already gets me very pissed off. But okay, let’s just say I’d pay the fee.

    What you’ve just said is a misunderstanding of an unverified rumour, which was admitted to have been misunderstood and later clarified to be a different rumour, which is also currently unverified.

    How did you manage that?

    Not a single website is now claiming that there is a “fee” for gamers to pay.

    The “fee” that your talking about was specifically for retail (allegedly).

    How could you be more wrong?

    #128 2 years ago
  129. viralshag

    Digital purchasing is on the rise, what did people think was going to happen with regards to game trading etc?

    Wy do you think Steam is so profitable? Because pretty much anyone that wants to play a game pays some money.

    #129 2 years ago
  130. Phoenixblight

    @129

    I don’t work for EA. I do however work for an indie developer that makes games for all current gen consoles, mobile and PC.

    #130 2 years ago
  131. fihar

    @121
    I’m assuming you’re referring to the console game market here. Why not? Steam has done wonders in converting people into PC gamers (myself included) and with the same system (and price) in place for the PS4 and the ability to play games before the download is finished, everything is possible. Of course, that would mean making major retailers redundant, which mean in the end that some people would lose jobs.

    @122
    But the value of each successive experience for some games would diminish exponentially.
    Bikes are different because they could get you from point A to point B.
    No matter how many times you use the bike, you would still be traveling from point A to point B in roughly the same speed, meaning there won’t be a problem even if you use it over and over again (aside from the usual maintenance), unlike for some games.
    You don’t buy a bike to feel the experience of riding a bike.
    Bikes have actual uses, they’re tools, they don’t provide you with an experience, which is why I said they’re not comparable.

    Is it really that hard to comprehend?

    Do you watch a movie over and over again?
    Music is different, because their values don’t diminish with each listen.

    #131 2 years ago
  132. polygem

    @128: what will the retailer do? just make the game more expensive. that´s the “funny” thing about this. it should be less expensive because of the DRM restrictions, because it guarantees ms, devs, pubs to make their cut…but the opposite will happen, the games will get more expensive so retailer xyz can also make a cut and ms will even go with those prices the retailers will force on you and translate them almost 1 on 1 to their digital offerings…wanna bet?
    that´s a broken system. it´s one directional, unfair and it doesn´t adress the problems of the business. it is a shortsighted attempt to fix things but it is the wrong direction.

    #132 2 years ago
  133. Da Man

    Unbelievable.. Sony are into this for the money !?

    #133 2 years ago
  134. Phoenixblight

    “what will the retailer do? just make the game more expensive. ”

    THey will only be able to make used games more expensive but guess what happens there? Gamestop and the like won’t be pushing it down your throat and if they raise the price where its no different than the new game then second hand sales becomes irrelevant. Its a win/win for publishers and devs.

    #134 2 years ago
  135. ps3fanboy

    Digital purchasing is on the rise, what a lot of hogwash… don’t believe the stuff you hear from publishers.

    #135 2 years ago
  136. lookingglass

    If you want the industry to grow and be stronger in the future, you will just deal with it. It gets developers more money and encourages them to take more risks.

    It will be just like steam, which is to say there will be no problems using it like some crazy DRMs out there.

    And don’t fool yourself, steam is pretty much always-on DRM and its awesome for everyone involved.

    #136 2 years ago
  137. grizzlycake

    @128

    Like I’ve said. I think it would be a great thing if big retailers like Gamestop or in my country GameMania give a share to publishers. I’d very much like to see that.

    But like I’ve also already said, that’s a dispute between publishers and retailers, not us. And going on current rumours and the already used online pass system, we’re the ones who are being “punished” for publisher’s incompetence to reach an understanding with retailers.

    As for you comment on strawman, I don’t really get that cause i’m not a native English speaker. However, it has happened to me during the big PSN outage. My console bricked during the outage. I forgot my password since it was always on “remember pass” and I rarely remember silly security questions like what’s your fav teacher? or whatever. I know it’s a misstake by me, yet still I wasn’t able to reconnect to my account.

    It was only after 7(!) phone calls with Sony’s customer service and countless threats that they’d ban my account that I could sign in again (with a new password and on a gmail account instead of hotmail).

    #137 2 years ago
  138. Phoenixblight

    “But like I’ve also already said, that’s a dispute between publishers and retailers, not us. And going on current rumours and the already used online pass system, we’re the ones who are being “punished” for publisher’s incompetence to reach an understanding with retailers.”

    Thats not the cleared up “rumor” MS came out and said that the fee would be passed to the retailer meaning they get less of a cut then they currently do. You however are not affected other than the game being locked to your account which means you won’t be able to borrow a friends game not unless they log in and allow you to play while they are there.

    #138 2 years ago
  139. grizzlycake

    @140

    Then I’m very okay with that (about the fees). However, no lending/borrowing is still a no-go for me. Almost half of the games I’ve played in my life were borrowed.

    It’s already bad enough that renting games (in Belgium) has been banned.

    EDIT: Wait a minute… that does still kill the entire 2nd hand sales market under people (no interference from gamestop and the like) a la eBay, flea markets, … Unless there’s a way that you can play a used game without additional cost if there’s no middle man involved.

    #139 2 years ago
  140. Eddie Rodrigues

    @137 “Digital purchasing is on the rise, what a lot of hogwash… don’t believe the stuff you hear from publishers.”

    It is on the rise. Sony knows it so well that they will make a combo of digital sales and physical copies to attract the most people they can. For what I care they will never get to the success of Steam, I mean those godly discounts can never be achieved by other company, but MS just playing shit here, they will use the PC logic on a console and still applies console measures like NO MODDING ALLOWED and high taxes for digital copies.

    @139 Most of my friends had problems with their accounts, since I made a US PSN I easily got it back after the outage. Sorry to hear that they were so careless with you too.

    #140 2 years ago
  141. polygem

    “THey will only be able to make used games more expensive”

    How come. i don´t think so.

    #141 2 years ago
  142. Phoenixblight

    “Then I’m very okay with that (about the fees). However, no lending/borrowing is still a no-go for me. Almost half of the games I’ve played in my life were borrowed.”

    Better pick a new hobby because you will just be sticking with previous gen stuff. Because publishers see borrowing,renting and the like just as bad as pirating.

    @143

    Because if they jack up the price for games altogether they will only be hurting themselves in the end with less sales. Retailers won’t be bumping the price if MS, PS store are selling it for less. Not unless they are morons.

    #142 2 years ago
  143. ps3fanboy

    @136 Phoenixblight, what about developers have to deal with it, that i don’t want to spend my money. because i as a customer don’t feel appreciated and my rights get stepped on?…

    developers make a product that is entertainment, its not an necessity to live, like food or water.

    if they wanna sell me their product they will have to deliver it on my premises in what format i want.

    you come here to dictated, be arrogant and make up your own rules. you lose your right as a developer to exist, it is that simple…

    #143 2 years ago
  144. grizzlycake

    @144

    Don’t you at least agree that things like borrowing are a right. Something that shouldn’t be taken away. You can view this as a drastic matter but please tell me you’d rather not have all of this.

    Because right now, you’re coming off to me that you want it this way. That developers deserve our pain and suffering.

    #144 2 years ago
  145. Phoenixblight

    @136

    Vote with your wallet. I don’t buy something if I don’t like what it comes with or not. Its that simple.

    If you think SOny won’t be doing something like this you are sorely mistaken if anything SOny will look at how MS mentioned the new system and be clear and upfront about it.

    #145 2 years ago
  146. CyberMarco

    @145 “if they wanna sell me their product they will have to deliver it on my premises in what format i want.”

    I wouldn’t believe I would say it, but yeah, I agree with you on that!

    #146 2 years ago
  147. Phoenixblight

    “Don’t you at least agree that things like borrowing are a right. Something that shouldn’t be taken away. You can view this as a drastic matter but please tell me you’d rather not have all of this.”

    Its not a “right” Can I take my physical PC disk and give it to a friend to play? No. Only in the EU do they have laws about physical disks but they still wouldn’t be able to access the PC game let alone a digital version.

    #147 2 years ago
  148. polygem

    “Retailers won’t be bumping the price if MS, PS store are selling it for less”

    …maybe and if…

    we´ll see about that. i think they wont just say, ok so we are making less profit now, alright. no they will make the customer compensate and if everyone swallowed that pill, because we are all somehow game junkies, ms will price their digital stuff very close to the new retail prices…but it´s all assumption right now, we will have to wait and see how this mess turns out. i still think it´s too one directional. not a good solution and i think the games will be at least priced 79,99. boom.

    #148 2 years ago
  149. grizzlycake

    @149

    Tell me again how you can want any of this? How can you say this might be a good thing for consumers. How can you say such a thing with a straight face?

    Just don’t think about devs and publishers and retailers and all that crap for a second.

    Please, go ahead.

    #149 2 years ago
  150. Phoenixblight

    @150

    THere is nothing to support that theory.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.401724-Sony-CEO-Gives-PS4-Games-0-99-to-60-Price-Range

    Plus games haven’t rose in cost even with inflation. SO I fail to see where you are thinking the cost will rise.

    #150 2 years ago
  151. polygem

    “Can I take my physical PC disk and give it to a friend to play? No”

    but that´s exactly why i buy a console! why should i buy a console if you take that away? in that case i cn just buy a pc. it is all about just that. no installs, buying a game, playing it, bringing it to a friend, play there, borrowing him the game for a while….you know, console gaming.

    #151 2 years ago
  152. grizzlycake

    @153

    I like you.

    Come here, gimme a kiss.

    #152 2 years ago
  153. Phoenixblight

    @151

    80% of my games are on the PC. Can I trade with my friends? No. Can I let them borrow my games? No, not unless I give them access to my account.

    I rarely let my friends borrow my games. SO I don’t see this as violating my “rights”.

    @153

    Haha no. Console gaming is about accessibility and not needing to know the ins and outs of PCs. It is a DRM in of itself just not as obvious. You can just plug it and go. Nothing is said on the console that you are able to borrow games that was just an assumed right or entitlement. Its not.

    #153 2 years ago
  154. polygem

    @152: but there´s no prove at all that it wont be happening either right? like i said, it´s speculation at the moment….but we´ve been here the last few years haven´t we?

    the costs will rise because it is called “manufacturer’s SUGGESTED retail price (MSRP)” and retail wont get as much profit as before…i believe they will just bump up the price to compensate.
    do i think that´s cool? no? can microsoft lean back and say, it´s not us, it´s the retailers that are greedy now, no. because it´s all connected, it´s not that easy.

    i´d love to discuss but i´m off for a while now – maybe later guy. interesting topic really.

    #154 2 years ago
  155. grizzlycake

    @155

    So are you the entire market for games then? Holy shit man, can’t you just for one second try to think how these practices might be unwanted by a LOT of people.

    DAMN

    #155 2 years ago
  156. Phoenixblight

    @157

    Did I ever say that? Where did I say “I am the entire market for games”? I can only go by my experiences and my friends who are all PC gamers with a select few with a console. I own a PS3 for its exclusives that of which I don’t borrow games for, I do however rent games but with their setup and even sony has this they can do trial demos which will allow me to play a game to see if I will like it or with PS4 Galkai system which will allow me to spectate a friend’s game and see how it is.

    #156 2 years ago
  157. ps3fanboy

    @158 Phoenixblight, your tartness have become tiresome. you call yourself a console gamer, here is a wake up call, your not. now crawl back to your micro$oft cave…

    #157 2 years ago
  158. Phoenixblight

    @159

    Don’t own a Xbox. Nice try though.

    #158 2 years ago
  159. Rockin a Jack D

    Will the plebs on here (you know who you are!) stop comparing the DRM on PC to the DRM on X1 (and possibly PS4), the two are completely different.

    #159 2 years ago
  160. Brenna Hillier

    @ps3fanboy cut it out with the spam parody posts. They’re annoying and seem to serve no purpose other than to belittle other users.

    #160 2 years ago
  161. Lengendaryboss

    @Brenna
    Stick it to the man :D or in this case parody spambot :D

    #161 2 years ago
  162. Battler624

    about the “PC game Can I trade with my friends? No.” well you guys are missing one hell of a point…
    SALES! you can hardly find console game sales appealing.. but on steam thats just another thing you spend a 100$ and get 200 high-quality games.
    also PC gaming means modding, which is well worth the money “ever saw skyrim photo-realism 100 mods at one?” i wouldn’t mind not letting anyone play the games i own if it means modding on consoles

    #162 2 years ago
  163. bangbangboomboom

    hey there people i just think its unecessary for sony to do this how are the blood money sucking guys ? they are how is the poor people how has to live miserably to buy a console and games every week? you are … So why not let the poor people trade used games at free will ? because they want more money dont they have enouht ? no they dont so how is loosing with this play ? you are the poor guy how works in f…ed up job every day and dont make even 10% in 20 years of what they do in a week or even less …

    #163 2 years ago
  164. YoungZer0

    @147: Actually you can. Witcher 2 for example allows that, also the big difference is and always will be Money. There’s nothing comparable to Steam sales on the consoles, I think I spend under 30 Euros for 20 THQ games last year.

    And PC retails are down to half the price in a matter of 4 months.

    DmC costs 20 Euros for PC now, Console version still over 40 Euros.

    Why? Why is it still so expensive?

    You think that will change? Think again.

    #164 2 years ago
  165. Phoenixblight

    @164

    “Actually you can. Witcher 2 for example allows that”

    Exception =/= Rule.

    The rest of your argument was clearly not aimed at me as I never made any remark about price.

    #165 2 years ago
  166. Richenbaum

    rumors are great. I like how Sony completely avoiding the questions about drm by making some vague subject changing comments about how passionate their fans are has somehow become THEY LISTENED TO US AND ARE GONNA CHANGE EVERYTHING NOW!

    #166 2 years ago
  167. Phoenixblight

    @166

    Or they are clearly waiting for an official announcement instead of a hack job that MS pulled off.

    #167 2 years ago
  168. YoungZer0

    @165: Bought the retail of Walking Dead last week. Works too.

    #168 2 years ago
  169. Clupula

    @166 – Yes, because a major corporation is going to jump up and answer right when you demand that it instead of, you know, waiting for that big conference thing coming up in a little bit. Maybe you’ve heard of it? It’s called E3.

    The fact that they acknowledged it, instead of burying everything in P.R. bullshit like Microsoft do is a positive thing, in and of itself.

    #169 2 years ago
  170. Phoenixblight

    @168

    I stand by my statement. you will find a fraction of a percent of PC games can be resold especially since Major retailers don’t allow selling of 2nd hand PC games like gamestop.

    #170 2 years ago
  171. Richenbaum

    like I said, amazing what stories you can spin for yourselves out of a noncommittal placating pat on the head. it’s possible that you’ll turn out to be right, but it’s just as possible that it could go the other way entirely. as it stands right now you’re just filling in the blanks on your own with wishful thinking.

    #171 2 years ago

Comments are now closed on this article.

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