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Xbox 720: CPU houses 8 x64 cores – rumour

Thursday, 28 February 2013 11:11 GMT By Dave Cook

Xbox 720 will house two CPU modules, each consisting of four x64 cores. That’s the claim of intrepid hardware site VGLeaks.

The site has produced a detailed, mind-boggling report on the matter, laden with techie speak that I honestly can’t understand. You can read up on it here.

What I can tell you is that the Xbox 720 / Durango is rumoured to house two CPU modules, each containing four x64 cores. The site claims that each core runs a single thread at 1.6 GHz.

The report says of the core-set, “With Durango, a familiar instruction set architecture and high performance silicon mean developers can focus effort on content and features, not micro-optimization.

“The trend towards more parallel power continues in this hardware; so, an effective strategy for multi-core computing is more important than ever.”

I’ll leave you to check out the rest, for fear of typing something I have little technical knowledge of. Let us know what you think below.

Meanwhile EA & Microsoft are rumoured to announce a timed-exclusivity deal at the alleged Xbox 720 reveal event on April 26th.

Thanks OXM.

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110 Comments

  1. Talkar

    The L2 cache seems pretty small, considering if this cycle is gonna last as long as the current…

    #1 2 years ago
  2. theevilaires

    I’m pretty sure the PS4 and 720 will be equal power. And if not no developer is going to make a certain version of a game look better than the other. So fuck all these specs.

    #2 2 years ago
  3. Samoan Spider

    This is just another route to the same destination. The power on paper may not be the same, but the end result will be. Beware the trolls. They’ll be on this like flies on shit, but not a single one of them will understand what’s through the jump.

    #3 2 years ago
  4. G1GAHURTZ

    But does it play audio CDs?

    That’s the real question, here…

    #4 2 years ago
  5. Samoan Spider

    ^ Thats the dealbreaker for a lot of people! :)

    #5 2 years ago
  6. Dragon246

    @G1GA,
    So true. I am canceling my pre-order of PS4 just for this.
    Fuck Sony.

    #6 2 years ago
  7. Erthazus

    Supercharged PC.

    That’s great, now all Multiplatform titles will be lead on the PC. That’s awesome. Thanks Sony and Microsoft. :D

    #7 2 years ago
  8. LuLshuck

    @7 are these specs good?

    #8 2 years ago
  9. Samoan Spider

    @8 The answer he gives will depend on his mood ;)

    #9 2 years ago
  10. ps3fanboy

    if this hint at some form of backwards compatibility with the x360 and microsoft goes to support disc games and xblive content for their x360 on the x720, SONY ARE IN FOR A NEVER ENDING SHIT STORM AND WILL LOSE BIG TIMES!

    #10 2 years ago
  11. kaffikjelen

    It’ll be interesting to see how the PS4 and nextbox compare in real-world performance.

    #11 2 years ago
  12. Erthazus

    Yeah, it will be interesting ….. for fanboys.

    I can give you the answer: both weak.

    #12 2 years ago
  13. G1GAHURTZ

    ^ Like your English.

    #13 2 years ago
  14. Erthazus

    ^ Like your comment that has nothing to do with the topic.

    #14 2 years ago
  15. Samoan Spider

    @12 Both weak, but will still be very capable at playing games and I’d be comfortable enough to say that 1080p60 will be a breeze for these devices. If you can’t concede even that, then your opinion is invalid.

    #15 2 years ago
  16. Erthazus

    60 frames per second? Let’s see about that.

    #16 2 years ago
  17. Samoan Spider

    Why not? Think of how threaded both the graphics and processing load will be on this platform (PS4 AND 720). Both the xbox 360 and ps3 were capable of either 60 fps OR 1080p. So why can’t they achieve 1080p60 with this huge leap in horsepower? Give me a straight and technical answer please.
    You know I’m a pc gamer but I’ll be buying both 720 and ps4 if the line up is varied enough so I have no bias in this.

    #17 2 years ago
  18. Zeydlitz

    well, 8 cores x86-64 CPU on 1.6 GHz — pretty dumb choice. 1) Xenon is really more poverfull, each xenon core could overperform whole 8-cores in unbalansed task (which is most natiral in gaming). 2) No xbox360 compatibility is possible — floating points instructions in x86 world quite nonstantart and Xenon could not be emulated on x86-64. 3) A lot of cashes == a lot of memory hit issues, a lot of slowdowns.

    #18 2 years ago
  19. DSB

    @17 You’re gonna be here all day if you keep going like that :P

    Truth is that yes, consoles are going to be perfectly optimized for when they come out, and they probably will be top notch for another two years or so.

    But what happens beyond that?

    I would be surprised if it wasn’t just the same old pattern repeating itself.

    #19 2 years ago
  20. Erthazus

    @17, I’m going to buy PS4 or 720 too in the end depends on the games ofc.

    But, next generation comes at a price. Next gen looking games require some decent power.

    http://www.vg247.com/2012/12/18/carmack-believes-many-next-gen-games-will-still-target-30-fps/

    +

    http://www.vg247.com/2013/02/25/killzone-shadow-fall-demo-runs-at-30fps-digital-foundry-tests-suggest/

    So i’m not super sure about 60 FPS. some games will probably have 60 frames like Gran turismo games or racing games. Maybe some Call Of duty games that look like shit.

    “Both the xbox 360 and ps3 were capable of either 60 fps OR 1080p. ”

    95% Of games had 720p games and 30 frames at best. What are you talking about?
    50% of them even were below 720p.

    If they were capable of 1080p/60 fps, that does not mean games supported that.

    #20 2 years ago
  21. Max Payne

    @17 This gen consoles were barely 720p/30fps

    #21 2 years ago
  22. Samoan Spider

    @18 1.6ghz jaguar > 3.2 Xenon. More cycles does not mean faster in this day and age. This will do so much more per cycle than the old xenon. 360 compatibility is not likely though as you say, PowerPC architecture vs x86-64. But not impossible.

    @19 Yup, I know :). After a couple of years, the game will change as usual and they’ll introduce the next shiny waggly must-have fandangly thing for the PS4/720 along with a price cut. So long as my PC games are optimised then I’ll be happy.

    #22 2 years ago
  23. Samoan Spider

    @20/21 Yup, I said capable. Some games used it, some didn’t. Most were 720p at 30fps but this is a massive leap none-the-less and no matter which way you slice it, all the technical sites running with this info are saying that they’ll be aiming much higher this round. Lets face it, 1080p was the big thing back then, then they realised that most people only had 1080i capable tv’s. So what was the point in busting a bollock for the extra screen real estate. That has changed. 1080p is the standard now for a much larger chunk of the populace. Times are a changin’

    #23 2 years ago
  24. DSB

    @22 Yeah, I’m not a hater, I don’t have a problem with someone using a machine I’m not.

    The thing that really got me this generation though, was how limited the games became.

    It seemed to me like they just started to have less of everything because they were designed for boxes that couldn’t really do as much as the developers could.

    #24 2 years ago
  25. harr0w

    I will be surprised if they have 1080 and 60fps. Because the killzone effort certainly wasn’t running @60fps and I don’t think it ever will but its just my opinion. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    #25 2 years ago
  26. Moonwalker1982

    I’m not big on specs and whatsoever, but is this good?

    #26 2 years ago
  27. Kabby

    If it doesn’t have 8Gb of GDDR5 RAM I am out.

    #27 2 years ago
  28. redwood

    I don’t know man,, this doesn’t say anything about if it plays CD’s or not.. am on the fence

    #28 2 years ago
  29. DrDamn

    @20
    “95% Of games had 720p games and 30 frames at best. What are you talking about?”

    The other 5%?

    #29 2 years ago
  30. Dragon246

    Looks like people forget why games target 30fps. Next gen is easily capable of 60 fps at 1080p, but they could improve graphics significantly to lowering the frames, hence the trade-off.
    Most console players aren’t bummed by it.

    #30 2 years ago
  31. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    I’d rather have better visuals than 60fps. I notice 60fps when I have it, not when I don’t. Not fussed.

    In other news:

    NEXTBOX HAS A CPU!?!?!>?

    NO WAY!

    #31 2 years ago
  32. Moonwalker1982

    @27

    I heard that MS could tweak it so that it won’t be much of a difference at all. Time will tell. I just wouldn’t understand it if MS comes with significant weaker specs though..it’s fucking MS. Ah well, we’ll see.

    #32 2 years ago
  33. Cobra951

    Yes, current consoles can do 60 fps and 720p at the same time.

    http://www.giantbomb.com/60-fps-on-consoles/3015-3223/games/

    Doing 30 fps (at least) doubles the rendering budget per frame, and that’s why it’s popular with the devs–prettier still shots, acceptable motion (to most users). It’s all a tradeoff.

    Games I own that I know for a fact run at 60 fps at 720p:

    Burnout: Paradise
    Forza 4
    Grid
    Dirt 2

    Yep, all racers, where full, synched frame rate is paramount.

    #33 2 years ago
  34. CycloneFox

    @Cobra: GT5 on PS3 also runs in 60fps, internally rendered at 1080p (4:3, width is stretched), also MGR:R runs at 60fps on both consoles and Bayonetta mostly at 60fps on the Xbox360.

    This generation already makes almost anything imaginable possible. Since the Xbox360 or the PS3, games could almost already look like some Pixar movie. Actually you will never again see such a high difference in graphics, like the difference from PS1 to PS2, or PS2 to PS3. People who are no experts in video-gaming or at least spend alot of time playing won’t really see a difference between games of this generation and the next one. It’s like standing in a TV-shop, trying to figure out, which TV has the best image quality, without knowing, that the only real with you bare eyes noticeable difference lies in some TVs standing farer away from the source-signal and the more expensive ones standing directly at the source.
    The problem lies more with the budget, it is not only expensive to have an engine, that can render houndreds of thousands of polygons and high res textures on a current gen console, while people already want to have next-gen-like graphics. It is far more expensive to find out and compose the looks of a game that might or might not attract consumers, or to create thousands of square kilometers of high res textures and map them on good designed models, or to create content in terms of levels and 3D-modles, or to script gaming passages lasting 8 hours or so of gameplay with happenings and NPC-interactions in any possible way the player might want to approach and not making the player walk in empty corridors for even some minutes.
    It will get a little easier with the new conosles, as they do not only have those abilitys, but developers can play arround a bit more with stuff and throw in more objects without caring too much for the performance. But they will still have to make the content as they do now and as the current gen already reached some kind of budget limit, games won’t really look better on first sight. What will be better is loading times, smoother framerates on 1080p in all games, switching between tasks, setting your console to sleep or wake it up almost instantly, getting into the marketplace of internetbrowser instantly while playing of whatever.

    In my opinion, there will be no difference in the graphical output of multiplatform titles on PS4 or next-Xbox (like with the bad ps3 or xbox360 ports in this generation). It will even stay far closer to the graphical output of a PC, as the hardware will get less and less important. The only difference will be the quality of the art design, as it already is today. I think the next console-cycle will last alot longer than the current one. Something in the process of making games with patterns and stuff has to change radically first, before there will be another huge graphical jump, current PCs and the PS4/next Xbox can’t handle. It’s not 2003 anymore.

    #34 2 years ago
  35. Samoan Spider

    ^ This. This is very good. Well said CF.

    #35 2 years ago
  36. laggass

    @34

    just lol…….

    Ive got a 360 and a pc both through the same 1080p 32 inch tv, my pc is running a gtx570 (midrange card) and the same game looks like its on a different generation on the p.c. There will be a huge gap in graphics, a proper 1080p game with hd textures looks a hell of a lot better than an upscaled game with poor textues ala ps3/360. games in point are BF3 and skyrim and GTA4

    #36 2 years ago
  37. shogoz

    They probably need that many CPUs to run all the mother fucking ads they’ll shove in your face every time you turn on your console to play a game

    #37 2 years ago
  38. Samoan Spider

    @36 To me it does too, but his (correct) point is that to the gaming masses, it isn’t going to appear to be the huge leap it was previously. The bells & whistles count will increase massively, but do the gaming masses notice that?

    @37 Don’t you think Sony has a lovely layout for adverts too now? Don’t pretend MS are the only ones wanting some Ad revenue. All the good business’ are selling you up the river these days :)

    #38 2 years ago
  39. shogoz

    Yeah true Samoan, their layout for the next one looks like admania too unfortunately. How does the Wii-u look in terms of ads? Anyone got a Wii-u?

    #39 2 years ago
  40. Kuwabara

    We already have a next gen title, it’s called wipeout HD. Beautiful game, 1080p, 60 frames per second. :)

    #40 2 years ago
  41. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    I do wish people would stop saying ‘There’s not much of a gap this time’. It’s retarded.

    Look at the Killzone demo (the view from the air), look at Deep Down. The jump is fucking huge and these are only the earliest of early demos.

    #41 2 years ago
  42. Stardog

    Timed exclusivity on ALL EA games?

    #42 2 years ago
  43. Erthazus

    Killzone demo with graphics from 2007 Crysis on Ultra setttings. Cool story bro. Lol

    Deep Down – amazing as F and how much of this was in-game and when it’s coming out?

    #43 2 years ago
  44. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @43

    Sorry, but no. Way in advance of Crysis. Played Crysis on Ultra (more than once); Killzone (in the air) was miles ahead. Far, far more impressive.

    #44 2 years ago
  45. Dave Cook

    My two cents. Not trying to start an argument here or disagreeing with any one as we’re all entitled to our opinions of course.

    But, in my mind graphical horsepower is the least important element of every game ever made.

    That’s because you can have the best looking game ever with graphics so detailed it makes your soul weep, but if the story is a bunch of unintelligible guff, and it has broken or messy controls then what have you got?

    You have a very pretty-looking husk of a game.

    I get ‘why’ visuals are important as they help with immersion and in setting scenes wonderfully, but I think devs need to nail the other core fundamentals before betting the farm on gloss.

    Look at Pac-Man. It’s still a master-class in twitch gaming control to this day, Mario Bros. NES still has better platform controls than some modern platformers, but they look like shit now compared to say, Crysis.

    To me, visuals are aren’t even a secondary concern. They’re so far down the list of priorities that I can’t even see them.

    But again to stress this – I’m not saying any of you are wrong here. This is just my personal take.

    Ta :)

    *goes back to writing awesome features for you all*

    #45 2 years ago
  46. Samoan Spider

    @41 Granted close up the erection factor is quite large and potentially embarrassing in polite company when watching those demo’s, but then to hammer home the point of what people are saying, load up something like tomb raider on the PS2, and right afterwards load up Uncharted on a PS3. Are you telling me we’re going to see THAT kind of a jump again? That’s what its all about. Then throw in the fact that you will be sat 6-8′ from your TV and some of the eye candy will get lost. Smoothness and general bells & whistles (TM) will be improved however.

    #46 2 years ago
  47. manamana

    Moores law shall come upon thee.

    #47 2 years ago
  48. Kabby

    “That’s because you can have the best looking game ever with graphics so detailed it makes your soul weep, but if the story is a bunch of unintelligible guff, and it has broken or messy controls then what have you got?”

    Crysis? Killzone? :P

    #48 2 years ago
  49. Erthazus

    @44, “Way in advance of Crysis. Played Crysis on Ultra (more than once); Killzone (in the air) was miles ahead. Far, far more impressive.”

    Which is not true at all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyF-5WQyIw

    Not even close to these effects.

    #49 2 years ago
  50. Gadzooks!

    #45

    A-freakin-MEN brother!

    Testify!

    #50 2 years ago
  51. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    I don’t agree with you, Dave. Graphics don’t make a game great, but horsepower charges down boundaries that confine the limitations of what’s possible. Believe it or not, most of the current-gen games, their very shape, their form, function and flow are all defined by the limitations of the platform. More power doesn’t necessarily mean better games, but it means better games CAN exist. It always has and, until machines are powerful enough to create limitless photorealistic worlds, it always will.

    You can’t use PacMan as an example of why graphics don’t matter. Graphics ARE gameplay; they are what pulls you in, or pushes you out of the experience. If all you want to do is march a sprite around a map, by all means enjoy that on your phone or whatever. Me, I’ll be playing whatever the next Mass Effect turns out to be (which won’t be Mass Effect 4).

    @46

    Comparing end-of gen classics like God Of War 2 with start-of-gen nonsense like Kameo is the only fair comparison right now and no, apart from the resolution, the jump wasn’t as big as you seem to think it was from last gen. I’d say what we’ve seen on PS4 is as big or bigger a jump than that, actually.

    #51 2 years ago
  52. Dave Cook

    @51 “More power=better games”

    Not always. I see what you’re saying and again respect the opinion but in my mind sometimes better games are simplistic.

    Take Street Fighter 2 on SNES is a better fighting game than the dreadful Rise of the Robots for one, and that had way more power.

    Final Fight Arcade was better than Final Fight Streetwise on PS2.

    Final Fantasy 6 on SNES blows Final Fantasy X-2 out of the water.

    It’s a case-by-case issue though, I can’t apply it to all examples. None of us can really. But again, if a dev fails to make a game playable, then visuals are worth nothing.

    Again, just my take :)

    #52 2 years ago
  53. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @52

    You’re cleverly avoiding the problem there by concentrating your argument on a genre that specifically cannot benefit from additional horsepower. You’re also comparing the very best of retro gaming with the very worst of more recent, prettier titles. Which is like proving Range Rover better than Ferrari by racing them up a mountain.

    It’s not a fair comparison.

    Here’s one for you: BioShock Vs. Chucky Egg.

    #53 2 years ago
  54. Dave Cook

    @53 This isn’t an argument though, I was just stating my opinion on the matter :)

    The BioShock comparison doesn’t work as it’s a different type of game to Chuckie Egg. Plus Chuckie Egg is still superb in its execution.

    Kill.Switch versus Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days. Both cover shooters. I’d say Kill.Switch beats IO’s game every time and it looks worse visually.

    No need to get wound up. I’m not arguing with anyone here as you suggested. Just giving my opinion :)

    It’s all good.

    #54 2 years ago
  55. Zeydlitz

    @22 Nah, jaguar is not so instruction effective, as old Power 5 was. 8 core Jaguar should have 24 GFlops — only 3 Gflops per core. And Xenon was rated as 19.2 GFLops CPU (6.4 GFlops per core, VMX units are excluded from calculation). This flops are good for comparison, it mean that on simple mathematical calculation task Xenon would overcome Jaguar. Well. Old Power5 1.5GHz and AMD Opteron 3.2GHz was wery close on linpack test per core, so it would not be suprised.

    As in linked article:

    - Sub-ISA Parallelism and Micro-Operations
    It’s not a bonus, it’s really a penalty of x86 architecture. RISC architecture simply ommit this stage, going straight to Two-issue superscalar execution.

    - Register Renaming
    Another penalty that want to present itself as a bonus. For Xenon it was not an issue

    - Speculative Execution
    - Advanced Branch Predictor
    This is real bonuses, but it does not seems that this would be wery usefull on gaming tasks. Games are pretty linear and does not need to have constant branching as DB tasks.

    - Out of Order Execution
    - Highly Utilized Out of Order Load Store Engine
    Well, yes, OO could give some (around 10-20%) effect. But in longer load of unified calculation task it does not work. On other hand, Xenon have superscalar execution, wich is quite usefull in such tasks.

    As a result, I could not see big performance bonuses for Jaguar CPU in gaming machine.

    #55 2 years ago
  56. DrDamn

    @Dave and DDDDDD
    Aren’t you both saying the same thing?

    DDDDDD said … “More power doesn’t necessarily mean better games, but it means better games CAN exist.”

    Dave said … “More power=better games … Not always … sometimes better games are simplistic.”

    At the very least you’re not exactly disagreeing with each other.

    #56 2 years ago
  57. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @54

    The BioShock/Chucky Egg comparison absolutely does work, because they were both shaped at a fundamental level by what their relative technology was capable of at the time. The shape of games is defined by the capabilities of the platform, or we’d all be playing Chuck Egg now and we’d all have been playing BioShock in 1987. In 1987, you couldn’t do BioShock. COULDN’T. In 2010, no one wants Chucky Egg-like experiences anymore.

    Or any other egg-like experience for that matter.

    You’re continuing to compare solid gold classic titles with bad modern-day affairs. As if the argument here is “We have graphics now and yet we still have bad games.” It’s ridiculous. We have ears and we still have bad music. We have words and we still have bad writing. All that proves is that there are talentless fucks in every industry. My point is power allows new things to happen. BioShock. 1987. Think.

    #57 2 years ago
  58. Dave Cook

    @57 “As if the argument here is”

    It’s not an argument. I’m not arguing with you :) I know what you mean and respect the angle. It’s just not what I see when I approach the games that I play.

    I understand what you’re saying above and yes it makes sense. It’s just to me, I’d take ugly but functional over broken and glossy any day.

    To show you I know what you mean – the world of Rapture wouldn’t exist without modern visual tech, it would not have been as endearing, engrossing or as terrifying as it was if it were all 8-bit blocks. Technology made that world feel real, tangible.

    I know what you mean, I’m not arguing with you, seriously. I get it :)

    #58 2 years ago
  59. manamana

    Zelda Minish Cap > Twighlight Princess. Simple as that.

    #59 2 years ago
  60. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @58

    So we’re agreed that you were wrong then. Good.

    #60 2 years ago
  61. Dave Cook

    @60 EDIT: oh, you changed your comment to something else. And here was me trying to be nice about it too.

    Well no, opinions can’t be wrong. Sorry.

    It is possible to agree to disagree and still get on. Seems to be nigh impossible in some quarters of this site lately.

    Fair enough.

    *Goes back to his fun but visually inferior games.*

    #61 2 years ago
  62. G1GAHURTZ

    Visuals mean absolutely NOTHING when it comes to gameplay.

    And to be honest, everything I’ve seen so far from the PS4 (only next gen example currently available) is gameplay that I’ve had since the PS1.

    Forget the PC even coming into this equation, because it’s in exactly the same boat. Different graphics, same old games.

    That’s why the Wii sold 100m units, and the PS360 didn’t.

    And the Wii wasn’t even that good! In fact, it was rubbish. A dust collector for most core gamers, but just the potential of a gameplay shift along the lines of 2D to 3D was enough to get so many people on board.

    The difference between Chucky Egg and Bioshock is gameplay.

    Sure, visuals add immersion, so does sound, etc, but without the gameplay, it’s meaningless.

    So forget the graphics, and the power, and the teraflops. I honestly don’t care if the xbox 720 can output film quality CG in real time. It will mean absolutely zero if all devs can offer me is the same game that I played on PS1.

    #62 2 years ago
  63. Dave Cook

    @62 basically this all day long ^ Nailed it G1GA. Perhaps it was my failing for not spelling it out better, but I agree entirely.

    #63 2 years ago
  64. Gadzooks!

    @Dave & DDDDDDDDDDDDD

    Is Soul Calibur 2 >>>>>> Soul Calibur 5 a good example?

    5 looks amazing, but 2 slices it up with a chainwhip and grinds it with a sensual purple heeled boot.

    My god, now all I can think of is those thighs…. Got to lie down…

    #64 2 years ago
  65. OlderGamer

    G1GA, best post I have seen from you in a long time. Well said.

    And for what it is worth, that is exactly why I enjoy my WiiU. Last night I am playing Madden, and I draw wide reciever routes on my gamepad while playing. In other words I adjusted the play as a reaction to the deffence I was facing. The ability to do that has not been offered anywhere else and is one example of what I enjoy about the system. I don’t care about the graphics, they are good enough. But the fact that I can actualy do something useful that I can’t do anywhere else…I like that alot.

    #65 2 years ago
  66. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @61

    “Well no, opinions can’t be wrong. Sorry.”

    Apology accepted.

    #66 2 years ago
  67. Eddie Rodrigues

    @62 It actually does mean a lot. Graphical enhancements do not have to be realistic though they should see appealing. For instance, I love how Borderlands and Dishonored look, even though they aren’t a LA Noire. Anywho, the graphics are terrific nowadays, they should focus on the physics.

    And PC does have a great difference in every aspect, not only the way you play but the way you make your game suits your profile (via MODDING most of the times), plus thousands and thousands of exclusives, which in my humble opinion, become better than anything a console exclusive can offer (APPART FROM HEAVY RAIN AND GRAN TURISMO)

    The Wii was completely subjective, it had good games.

    Play the current gen games, you can clearly see differences between the old gen games.

    @64 Soul Calibur 2 is a tiny piece of dust compared to Soul Calibur 4 or even 5, beat it.

    #67 2 years ago
  68. Beta

    At the end of the day, you can improve the graphics and the art style as much as you want.

    But if the gameplay is turd then you just have a shiny turd..

    Good visuals always need to be met with engaging gameplay and gameplay should always be the main priority.

    #68 2 years ago
  69. Samoan Spider

    @68 You get my vote simply for the eloquence of this: ‘But if the gameplay is turd then you just have a shiny turd’ :)

    #69 2 years ago
  70. Dave Cook

    @66 So childish. I was trying to have a polite, rationale conversation with you but it’s impossible it seems.

    @64 hah :D Yeah that’s the thing, SC2 is better but doesn’t look as nice. That’s what I mean by visuals not being as important.

    @67 modding is so brilliant isn’t it? Can give rise to some really ace ideas. It should always be encouraged.

    #70 2 years ago
  71. DeyDoDoughDontDeyDough

    @70

    Or perhaps I just type without smiley faces and you’re reading everything I write with your frowny face on?

    Turn that frown upside down.

    #71 2 years ago
  72. Erthazus

    “Visuals mean absolutely NOTHING”

    Say that to CAPCOM producer on the PS4 stage that talked about the difference between PS1 era, PS2 era and PS3 era and whatgames were possible on these systems.

    He explained pretty much everything. Visuals and hardware do matter. A lot. A lot more then you think.

    Games like Assassins Creed were impossible on PS2 or Xbox because of Hardware.
    Games like Devil May Cry or Onimusha series were impossible on PS1 and PS2 had enough power to make these games come to life.

    Developers of Driveclub on the PS4 said that they could not make this game and they tradermarked it 10 years ago and waited when technology will be there. PS4 is the system where they can make a really great game with multiplayer and social component they want.

    Hardware and graphics do matter a lot. Just look how games evolved whith physics and we have a lot of stuff to learn not in the graphics department but in physics. There are a lot of potential with the gameplay.

    #72 2 years ago
  73. manamana

    Ahh, Erth “the tool” azus entered the room. Please, tell us all how shitty console graphics of old, this and next-gen are and will be and then go play with your self. Thank you.

    #73 2 years ago
  74. OlderGamer

    I think graphics are important. For a few different reasons. But I think once you reach a certian point the level of importance that can be placed on slight improvments is pretty low.

    Imo, Xb360, ps3, WiiU, PC and likly PS4 and XB720 graphics aren’t much of an issue. Current gen games would be fine if they ran at smooth frame rates with a dab of AA applied. Which is pretty much about all I am expecting out of the next Sony/MS offerings. And I think that is great.

    I don’t think anyone here is implying graphics are bad. Just that gameplay should always be more important. You are PLAYING the gameplay while only LOOKING at the visuals.

    I think we are on the cusp of diminishing returns anyways. I think given the glass cielings of consumer price point, dev resources(budget/time) I think graphics have become a nonissue. Been saying this for a couple years now lol. Trying to temper peoples expectations going into next gen. Add into that dev/pubs desire to maintain a sameness across multiplatforms, and I doubt one version will look or play much different from any other version.

    Companies are more concerned about creating aditional revenue streams then putting extra spit and polish on the graphics anyways.

    #74 2 years ago
  75. manamana

    Of course we all want better graphics. But the biggest problem isn’t graphics imo but lack of decent AI. There is hope that it’s getting better but if everyoneis happy with the CoD kind of AI, it’s going to be rough singleplayer journey.

    Did I mention that nothing beats Robotron2084? :-)

    #75 2 years ago
  76. DSB

    @75 HALLELUJA BROTHER!

    Shit, I feel like I’ve been whining about AI since 2004.

    It also ties into my previous comment. The problem isn’t with consoles getting the limelight, the problem is that it hurts what the games can actually do.

    I used to absolutely love tactical shooters for example, but on a console there’s simply no way to clear a room fast and accurately, because sticks just aren’t made for that, and auto-aim pretty much ruins the challenge.

    They died once the new consoles arrived, instead you have your Vegas and your Warfighter and your Swat 4. It just isn’t nearly as good.

    But yeah, AI. There are so many games out there that could’ve been leagues better with decent AI, like Deus Ex: HR. I don’t know whether it’s because publishers don’t want to invest in AI anymore, or because consoles can’t pull it, but something’s very wrong.

    Then again, guys like Bohemia and Creative Assembly have each spent three games or more working on the same shitty AI, so it’s not like the PC is a wonderland.

    #76 2 years ago
  77. shogoz

    the enemies’ AI in perfect dark on the N64 is still miles ahead of the AI of enemies in most games today

    #77 2 years ago
  78. theevilaires

    ^ i missed out on that game :( hopefully when I hack my Vita I can run a 64 emulator on it and play it one day

    #78 2 years ago
  79. manamana

    @76 sticks are certainly not as precise as a mouse and never will be. And before I tell my AI squadmates in Operation Flashpoint or Arma2 to clear a room, I really prefer to go see myself. And how hard is it, to programm a friendly AI to run *behind* my line of fire? ;-)

    #79 2 years ago
  80. Da Man

    Dino Crisis2 was possible on POSX, let alone Onimusha.

    Someone should stop living off their parents money and get a grip.

    #80 2 years ago
  81. DSB

    @79 I really don’t know, and I have no idea why something like Swat 3 has never been attempted since.

    It had these semi-small levels, especially in the beginning, and it looks to me like the AI was scripted specifically to do certain things in each of those rooms, which meant that it gave you the experience that they were covering near-perfectly.

    There were still a few snags, and the game went bonkers once you started having a 5-man swat team face down a bazillion well armed terrorists (no duh!) but it was just brilliant at those stages.

    I mean I know “scripting” isn’t as cool as dynamic AI, but it fucking worked!

    #81 2 years ago
  82. fearmonkey

    Oh man… Everytime I read these “Graphics aren’t import to gameplay” arguments I just cringe….

    The better the graphics the more immersive it will be. Yeah not every game requires high end graphics like Street fighter as mentioned before. But open world games can really benefit from all those extra Polygons, bigger maps, more objects like people, insects, animals, flora, realistic hair and faces, etc. People can guestimate how things are going to look and be but the truth is, until 2 to 3 years down the road we don’t really know.

    Because of Consoles being the primary development platform for the biggest AAA games, most games were gimped, and didn’t take advantage of all the PC horsepower out there. Games like the Witcher 2 are few and far between. It looks good on console, but at the highest settings, the PC looks amazing.

    The biggest thing for me this next gen will be the ram in these machines. Animations can be much more realistic than before, lighting and textures can be more realistic and sharper than before, we will start to have CGI like graphics and that will not improve gameplay. If the gameplay isn’t there, it will still suck, but with great gameplay, it will be far more immersive.

    Anything that helps me get lost in a game’s world is great. better graphics just doesn’t mean prettier, it means better immersion.

    I guess i think of it like Daggerfall to Morrowind, and from Morrowind to Skyrim. Morrowind is still overall the better game than Skyrim in my opinion, but Skyrim is far more immersive now. I prefer playing Skyrim for that immersion to Morrowind un-modded, and I don’t enjoy playing Daggerfall anymore because its so ancient. While graphics donm’t make the game better, it does make the world the game is in more alive, and thats what excites me the most.

    #82 2 years ago
  83. shogoz

    let’s all watch black and white silent films again because special effects and all the cool shit they can do now doesn’t make the movie better (i’m in agreeance with fearmonkey!). Hurry up and hack your vita so you can play perfect dark theevilaires!

    #83 2 years ago
  84. Erthazus

    Everyone says they want great AI. What AI? that can kill you in a sec?

    there are a lot of them from Unreal Tournament or even F.E.A.R.

    you say that you want better AI and can’t say what you want from it. Just, “Me want good AI, du~u~uh.”

    there are a lot of games with good AI. Just look at the The Last Of Us or Uncharted AI which have really smart enemies and companions. Deus Ex:HR was just an ok game. Bad programming skills and etc.

    #84 2 years ago
  85. OlderGamer

    Erth +1

    Too many games kick my ass as it is already.

    #85 2 years ago
  86. shogoz

    @Erthazus Ever played dark souls? you could fire an arrow next to an enemies head and the enemy wont move until you get in their “range”. in perfect dark you could fire a gun in a room and a guard would come and check to see what the noise was and keep looking for you. If you shot the guard in the leg he limped and called out to his friends that kind of AI, duh :).

    #86 2 years ago
  87. Erthazus

    @86, completely different genres. You want too much really.

    #87 2 years ago
  88. DSB

    LOL. This is from the guy who wants console hardware that can run Crysis at high settings for 500 bucks.

    The difference between good and bad AI is pretty simple. Good AI is responsive and believable, bad AI is passive and immersion breaking.

    It also depends on the game. If you want to make me feel like a badass cyberpunk hacker, then it’s a bit of an anti-climax putting me to work massacring guards who seem to be pulled straight out of special ed class. I literally felt like I was going to town on people with downs syndrome in Deus Ex.

    OFP/ArmA is another example. It’s kinda hard to take a bunch of soldiers seriously when they’re moving like retarded furby dolls. If you have a genuine interest in a game like that, you will probably notice when the AI doesn’t know any combat drills.

    At least in FEAR the soldiers maneuver, which is more than you can say for a lot of games these days.

    #88 2 years ago
  89. manamana

    Erthazus the FEAR AI was ok but nothing to write home about. Interesting that you name FEAR as when I mentioned the enemy AI of REACH you came laughing at me, whilst it is miles better. TLOU isn’t even released, so that’s another typical assumption from you. No wonder you don’t recognize good AI, when all you do is gazing at trees ;-)

    I only played Unreal Tournament Multiplayer so I don’t know about that.

    Good AI has exactly nothing to do with precise aiming at the player. That would obviously be an unfair AI and thats what you get in most of the games. Throwing grenades at you and killing you from a mile away isn’t the point. Small example: being spotted whilst lurking in the shadows behind a tree when you are 300m away should be considered wrong as long there is no watchtower with binoculars, if you get what I mean. Enemies running at you in open field is usually a sign of dumb AI, don’t you think?

    And how many AIs are trying to flank you from different sides, whilst using cover. And while you named Uncharted, please tell me what was so great about the enemies? Popping their heads out of the cover now and then and throwing grenades? Man you really haven’t played a Halo game and bash the shit out of it but the Uncharted AI didn’t even reached Halo3 cleverness.

    A good AI should also know when to retreat and to strike at another part of the level. Or to haunt you while beeing aware of it’s surroundings.

    And clear a building without running up and down the frontdoor a couple of times …

    #89 2 years ago
  90. shogoz

    yep cuz ai is a genre lol

    #90 2 years ago
  91. PC_PlayBoy

    Next gen consoles are nothing but old PC tech duct-taped together and called “next gen” for the casuals…

    #91 2 years ago
  92. shogoz

    pretty much but i’ll still buy them lol

    #92 2 years ago
  93. Samoan Spider

    @91 Hey, duct tape is awesome stuff, you leave it alone!

    #93 2 years ago
  94. manamana

    @90 ?

    #94 2 years ago
  95. Samoan Spider

    @94 I think that was in reference to Erth’s earlier comment about something being a totally different genre. As if the genre dictated whether something could have a good AI or not. At least thats how I read it.

    #95 2 years ago
  96. Erthazus

    @DSB, “LOL. This is from the guy who wants console hardware that can run Crysis at high settings for 500 bucks.”

    Hey, Genius. Crysis 1 is a 2007 year old game. Okay? We are in 2013 year. Last gen consoles PS3/360 were out in 2006/2007.

    “OFP/ArmA is another example. It’s kinda hard to take a bunch of soldiers seriously when they’re moving like retarded furby dolls. If you have a genuine interest in a game like that, you will probably notice when the AI doesn’t know any combat drills.”

    You want something impossible. Go play Call Of duty singleplayer then. AI there is scripted and it does not feel like furby dolls at all, they just do the same thing over and over again. You can’t do with the limitations like that. AI will never be responsive to a player as you think.

    I understand about Deus Ex, but it is stupid because these guys see the most obvious path without communicating with each other.

    @manamana, I saw Halo:Reach AI and it was the same shit like in previous games. They don’t do something special.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0q3WQO-OGg look here. They do what real soldiers really do. Impressive thing how they run and drop grenades and walk around you.

    “Enemies running at you in open field is usually a sign of dumb AI, don’t you think?”

    Not really because 90% of players do the same thing actually. It really depends on the situation. It should be first of all fun to kill the enemy.
    you want enemy sodiers to sit under the cover all the time? Ha. Look at the multiplayer matches where kids scream: F***ING CAMPER HATE U!111

    Good AI in my opinion should be a challenge first of all. They should not go to the most obvious path and they should connect/interact with each other and use their abilities at best.

    A lot of people for example criticizing Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 AI for example because it is stupid, but in reality these guys do a lot of things right like regular soldiers do. They are searching you. You are dude in the suit that know how to use invisibility cloak, bsically not even human anymore and they are interacting with each other, throw different grenades. + you don’t afraid them at all because your brain know that it is just a game and you can be killed many times over and over again.

    but people say that they are stupid, ofc if you are in the suit with sci-fi weaponry and ultimate “Armor” skin.

    Opinion.

    #96 2 years ago
  97. Cobra951

    @59: Played both, liked both; completely disagree with you. But to be clear, I’m talking about the only proper version of Twilight Princess: the non-waggle, non-mirrored, 4:3-aspect Gamecube version. The bastardized Wii version will never defile any console of mine.

    #97 2 years ago
  98. Eddie Rodrigues

    @Erthazus, overall your comments on this topic seem to be rather interesting. Agreed at most of them.

    @manamana a good AI adapts to whatever the player does and actually thinks before proceeding with an action, sadly there isn’t a single one that is actually like this outside of Stealth games (MGS and Deus Ex: HR) and even those ones are full of flaws.

    #98 2 years ago
  99. manamana

    @96 I played FEAR, it was great. And yes, Reach has a lot of tremendous bad AI at times but most of the time it’s quite engaging. But when 90% of the players of a FPS run at you guns blazing over open field, it’s time to switch server or game entirely :-D

    #99 2 years ago
  100. DSB

    @96 Fire and maneuver isn’t that hard to code. There are even community members who have made scripts that work well enough to simulate it to a limited extent, and in games like Combat Mission, it’s truly basic stuff.

    Group A moves to point X, while Group B covers or fires at point Y. Then Group A covers or fires at point Y while Group B moves to point X, and so on.

    It’s basic stuff.

    Most likely Bohemia are too busy making idiotic graphic enhancements to worry about the gameplay.

    #100 2 years ago
  101. manamana

    @Eddie “a good AI adapts to whatever the player does and actually thinks before proceeding with an action” agreed. And takes action that surprises the player. Which is something an enemy AI is rarely doing. We didn’t even touch friendly AI. Has there ever been a good driving AI? I mean when you board a car/Humvee/Tank/Jeep/spaceship?

    #101 2 years ago
  102. shogoz

    wow Erthazus this is really eating you up inside isn’t it lol. so now you say what you said is an opinion to make people respect yours when you treat everyone else like an idiot while showing others you look down on them for thinking that way. you’re such a douchebag :P. Enjoy your nerd rage, I’m off to look on other threads.

    #102 2 years ago
  103. Da Man

    “Erthazus” is a typical insane nerd, who for some reason tricked himself into his own bs so far it couldn’t possibly be cured by any rational amount of haloperidol.

    It’s just another wall of blah blah which is about some mentally dusturbed evaluations of imaginary computer entertainment forces as opposed to videogames.

    All you have to do to make erthanutcases hate your company is make it Xbox exclusive/include some explicit anti-soviet content/become popular in some anti-nerd way..

    #103 2 years ago
  104. redwood

    @103 that’s the first time i read the word “haloperidol”, and i thought ps4 exclusivity pissed him off

    #104 2 years ago
  105. Kuwabara

    @44, the only thing that stopped crysis 1 on ps3 frm looking as good as crysis on pc is THEY DIDN’T EXACTLY make the best looking ps3 title, so cell wasn’t utilised as well as say uncharted. I don’t think they spent a long time making the console port. And the most important thing RAM. If the ps3 had a few gigs of ram there wouldn’t be texture issues!!, for one thing. I’d be damned If it wouldnt have looked just as good on ps3 with more ram. Here we are talking about ps4, not just a massive ram increase, but a much better GPU, CPU, with tweaks and optimization. Not to mention a cpu that is much easier to develop on. so of course a crysis game made on ps4 will look alot better than the pc version, that’s without the updated crytek engines alone!! Do a comparison of the crysis 3 pc vs consoles. They all look great, even though the pc is better. it isn’t a generation leap ahead of consoles, such as one looking like a ps2 title and the pc looking like a ps3 game. So obviously if you were to put a ps4 version of crysis 3 taking full advantage of the ps4, of course you would see a massive difference on the ps4 and undoubtedly look way better than all of them. What ever the pc can do, the ps4 will be able to do for a few more years, now that the ram issue is fixed.

    #105 2 years ago
  106. megumi203

    two CPU… Sega Saturn?

    PS4 = 8core 2.0GHz
    720 = 4corex2 1.6GHz

    #106 2 years ago
  107. Samoan Spider

    @106 But until April we don’t know what special sauce MS have cooking up to keep their horse in this race.

    #107 2 years ago
  108. ManuOtaku

    Well i like graphics like much as any other gamer, but i do also believe gameplay should be the number one priority, goog gampeplay alone can make a game, good graphics alone cannot make a good game, therefore in that regard gameplay is the most important thing, but a comibination of the two is the best of both worlds for a game, though.

    The sad thing is that with each passing gen, much of the time the focus is graphics then gameplay, and this will be increasing with the notion of the games being an interactive movie, i profe artistic graphics more than realistic ones, or movie experiences.

    I like the assains creed vs sly comparations, i think sly is an early version of some sorts of assasins creed, and regardless of being on a lower spec console, it is for me the better one, improve tech in graphics was not a factor, of course iam comparing the best sly games with the first assasins creed her.

    #108 2 years ago
  109. setohayato

    I would like to see some more innovative things done with the graphics of games, like unique visual elements that make meaningful use of the pretty graphics games are capable of today.

    As for AI it can get pretty complex to create great AI given the complexity of games. Pathfinding is only one aspect of AI. NPCs have absolute information so “dumbing” them down is important so that the computers do not have perfect aim or know where the player is at all times. Combat AI can also have its own set of complex rules. Some games have used a tree structure approach with how the handle combat behavior. With all this AI can become relatively expensive.

    Java character path planning: http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=101142

    In case you are curious.

    #109 2 years ago
  110. sg1974

    Graphics don’t matter?

    Bollocks.

    It matters to every gamer here, regardless of whether they want to admit it.

    #110 2 years ago

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