Xbox 720: CPU houses 8 x64 cores – rumour

I don’t agree with you, Dave. Graphics don’t make a game great, but horsepower charges down boundaries that confine the limitations of what’s possible. Believe it or not, most of the current-gen games, their very shape, their form, function and flow are all defined by the limitations of the platform. More power doesn’t necessarily mean better games, but it means better games CAN exist. It always has and, until machines are powerful enough to create limitless photorealistic worlds, it always will.

You can’t use PacMan as an example of why graphics don’t matter. Graphics ARE gameplay; they are what pulls you in, or pushes you out of the experience. If all you want to do is march a sprite around a map, by all means enjoy that on your phone or whatever. Me, I’ll be playing whatever the next Mass Effect turns out to be (which won’t be Mass Effect 4).

@46

Comparing end-of gen classics like God Of War 2 with start-of-gen nonsense like Kameo is the only fair comparison right now and no, apart from the resolution, the jump wasn’t as big as you seem to think it was from last gen. I’d say what we’ve seen on PS4 is as big or bigger a jump than that, actually.

@51 “More power=better games”

Not always. I see what you’re saying and again respect the opinion but in my mind sometimes better games are simplistic.

Take Street Fighter 2 on SNES is a better fighting game than the dreadful Rise of the Robots for one, and that had way more power.

Final Fight Arcade was better than Final Fight Streetwise on PS2.

Final Fantasy 6 on SNES blows Final Fantasy X-2 out of the water.

It’s a case-by-case issue though, I can’t apply it to all examples. None of us can really. But again, if a dev fails to make a game playable, then visuals are worth nothing.

Again, just my take

@52

You’re cleverly avoiding the problem there by concentrating your argument on a genre that specifically cannot benefit from additional horsepower. You’re also comparing the very best of retro gaming with the very worst of more recent, prettier titles. Which is like proving Range Rover better than Ferrari by racing them up a mountain.

It’s not a fair comparison.

Here’s one for you: BioShock Vs. Chucky Egg.

@53 This isn’t an argument though, I was just stating my opinion on the matter

The BioShock comparison doesn’t work as it’s a different type of game to Chuckie Egg. Plus Chuckie Egg is still superb in its execution.

Kill.Switch versus Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days. Both cover shooters. I’d say Kill.Switch beats IO’s game every time and it looks worse visually.

No need to get wound up. I’m not arguing with anyone here as you suggested. Just giving my opinion

It’s all good.

@22 Nah, jaguar is not so instruction effective, as old Power 5 was. 8 core Jaguar should have 24 GFlops — only 3 Gflops per core. And Xenon was rated as 19.2 GFLops CPU (6.4 GFlops per core, VMX units are excluded from calculation). This flops are good for comparison, it mean that on simple mathematical calculation task Xenon would overcome Jaguar. Well. Old Power5 1.5GHz and AMD Opteron 3.2GHz was wery close on linpack test per core, so it would not be suprised.

As in linked article:

- Sub-ISA Parallelism and Micro-Operations
It’s not a bonus, it’s really a penalty of x86 architecture. RISC architecture simply ommit this stage, going straight to Two-issue superscalar execution.

- Register Renaming
Another penalty that want to present itself as a bonus. For Xenon it was not an issue

- Speculative Execution
- Advanced Branch Predictor
This is real bonuses, but it does not seems that this would be wery usefull on gaming tasks. Games are pretty linear and does not need to have constant branching as DB tasks.

- Out of Order Execution
- Highly Utilized Out of Order Load Store Engine
Well, yes, OO could give some (around 10-20%) effect. But in longer load of unified calculation task it does not work. On other hand, Xenon have superscalar execution, wich is quite usefull in such tasks.

As a result, I could not see big performance bonuses for Jaguar CPU in gaming machine.

@Dave and DDDDDD
Aren’t you both saying the same thing?

DDDDDD said … “More power doesn’t necessarily mean better games, but it means better games CAN exist.”

Dave said … “More power=better games … Not always … sometimes better games are simplistic.”

At the very least you’re not exactly disagreeing with each other.

@54

The BioShock/Chucky Egg comparison absolutely does work, because they were both shaped at a fundamental level by what their relative technology was capable of at the time. The shape of games is defined by the capabilities of the platform, or we’d all be playing Chuck Egg now and we’d all have been playing BioShock in 1987. In 1987, you couldn’t do BioShock. COULDN’T. In 2010, no one wants Chucky Egg-like experiences anymore.

Or any other egg-like experience for that matter.

You’re continuing to compare solid gold classic titles with bad modern-day affairs. As if the argument here is “We have graphics now and yet we still have bad games.” It’s ridiculous. We have ears and we still have bad music. We have words and we still have bad writing. All that proves is that there are talentless fucks in every industry. My point is power allows new things to happen. BioShock. 1987. Think.

@57 “As if the argument here is”

It’s not an argument. I’m not arguing with you I know what you mean and respect the angle. It’s just not what I see when I approach the games that I play.

I understand what you’re saying above and yes it makes sense. It’s just to me, I’d take ugly but functional over broken and glossy any day.

To show you I know what you mean – the world of Rapture wouldn’t exist without modern visual tech, it would not have been as endearing, engrossing or as terrifying as it was if it were all 8-bit blocks. Technology made that world feel real, tangible.

I know what you mean, I’m not arguing with you, seriously. I get it

Zelda Minish Cap > Twighlight Princess. Simple as that.

@58

So we’re agreed that you were wrong then. Good.

@60 EDIT: oh, you changed your comment to something else. And here was me trying to be nice about it too.

Well no, opinions can’t be wrong. Sorry.

It is possible to agree to disagree and still get on. Seems to be nigh impossible in some quarters of this site lately.

Fair enough.

*Goes back to his fun but visually inferior games.*

Visuals mean absolutely NOTHING when it comes to gameplay.

And to be honest, everything I’ve seen so far from the PS4 (only next gen example currently available) is gameplay that I’ve had since the PS1.

Forget the PC even coming into this equation, because it’s in exactly the same boat. Different graphics, same old games.

That’s why the Wii sold 100m units, and the PS360 didn’t.

And the Wii wasn’t even that good! In fact, it was rubbish. A dust collector for most core gamers, but just the potential of a gameplay shift along the lines of 2D to 3D was enough to get so many people on board.

The difference between Chucky Egg and Bioshock is gameplay.

Sure, visuals add immersion, so does sound, etc, but without the gameplay, it’s meaningless.

So forget the graphics, and the power, and the teraflops. I honestly don’t care if the xbox 720 can output film quality CG in real time. It will mean absolutely zero if all devs can offer me is the same game that I played on PS1.

@62 basically this all day long ^ Nailed it G1GA. Perhaps it was my failing for not spelling it out better, but I agree entirely.

@Dave & DDDDDDDDDDDDD

Is Soul Calibur 2 >>>>>> Soul Calibur 5 a good example?

5 looks amazing, but 2 slices it up with a chainwhip and grinds it with a sensual purple heeled boot.

My god, now all I can think of is those thighs…. Got to lie down…

G1GA, best post I have seen from you in a long time. Well said.

And for what it is worth, that is exactly why I enjoy my WiiU. Last night I am playing Madden, and I draw wide reciever routes on my gamepad while playing. In other words I adjusted the play as a reaction to the deffence I was facing. The ability to do that has not been offered anywhere else and is one example of what I enjoy about the system. I don’t care about the graphics, they are good enough. But the fact that I can actualy do something useful that I can’t do anywhere else…I like that alot.

@61

“Well no, opinions can’t be wrong. Sorry.”

Apology accepted.

@62 It actually does mean a lot. Graphical enhancements do not have to be realistic though they should see appealing. For instance, I love how Borderlands and Dishonored look, even though they aren’t a LA Noire. Anywho, the graphics are terrific nowadays, they should focus on the physics.

And PC does have a great difference in every aspect, not only the way you play but the way you make your game suits your profile (via MODDING most of the times), plus thousands and thousands of exclusives, which in my humble opinion, become better than anything a console exclusive can offer (APPART FROM HEAVY RAIN AND GRAN TURISMO)

The Wii was completely subjective, it had good games.

Play the current gen games, you can clearly see differences between the old gen games.

@64 Soul Calibur 2 is a tiny piece of dust compared to Soul Calibur 4 or even 5, beat it.

At the end of the day, you can improve the graphics and the art style as much as you want.

But if the gameplay is turd then you just have a shiny turd..

Good visuals always need to be met with engaging gameplay and gameplay should always be the main priority.

@68 You get my vote simply for the eloquence of this: ‘But if the gameplay is turd then you just have a shiny turd’

@66 So childish. I was trying to have a polite, rationale conversation with you but it’s impossible it seems.

@64 hah Yeah that’s the thing, SC2 is better but doesn’t look as nice. That’s what I mean by visuals not being as important.

@67 modding is so brilliant isn’t it? Can give rise to some really ace ideas. It should always be encouraged.

@70

Or perhaps I just type without smiley faces and you’re reading everything I write with your frowny face on?

Turn that frown upside down.

“Visuals mean absolutely NOTHING”

Say that to CAPCOM producer on the PS4 stage that talked about the difference between PS1 era, PS2 era and PS3 era and whatgames were possible on these systems.

He explained pretty much everything. Visuals and hardware do matter. A lot. A lot more then you think.

Games like Assassins Creed were impossible on PS2 or Xbox because of Hardware.
Games like Devil May Cry or Onimusha series were impossible on PS1 and PS2 had enough power to make these games come to life.

Developers of Driveclub on the PS4 said that they could not make this game and they tradermarked it 10 years ago and waited when technology will be there. PS4 is the system where they can make a really great game with multiplayer and social component they want.

Hardware and graphics do matter a lot. Just look how games evolved whith physics and we have a lot of stuff to learn not in the graphics department but in physics. There are a lot of potential with the gameplay.

Ahh, Erth “the tool” azus entered the room. Please, tell us all how shitty console graphics of old, this and next-gen are and will be and then go play with your self. Thank you.

I think graphics are important. For a few different reasons. But I think once you reach a certian point the level of importance that can be placed on slight improvments is pretty low.

Imo, Xb360, ps3, WiiU, PC and likly PS4 and XB720 graphics aren’t much of an issue. Current gen games would be fine if they ran at smooth frame rates with a dab of AA applied. Which is pretty much about all I am expecting out of the next Sony/MS offerings. And I think that is great.

I don’t think anyone here is implying graphics are bad. Just that gameplay should always be more important. You are PLAYING the gameplay while only LOOKING at the visuals.

I think we are on the cusp of diminishing returns anyways. I think given the glass cielings of consumer price point, dev resources(budget/time) I think graphics have become a nonissue. Been saying this for a couple years now lol. Trying to temper peoples expectations going into next gen. Add into that dev/pubs desire to maintain a sameness across multiplatforms, and I doubt one version will look or play much different from any other version.

Companies are more concerned about creating aditional revenue streams then putting extra spit and polish on the graphics anyways.

Of course we all want better graphics. But the biggest problem isn’t graphics imo but lack of decent AI. There is hope that it’s getting better but if everyoneis happy with the CoD kind of AI, it’s going to be rough singleplayer journey.

Did I mention that nothing beats Robotron2084?

@75 HALLELUJA BROTHER!

Shit, I feel like I’ve been whining about AI since 2004.

It also ties into my previous comment. The problem isn’t with consoles getting the limelight, the problem is that it hurts what the games can actually do.

I used to absolutely love tactical shooters for example, but on a console there’s simply no way to clear a room fast and accurately, because sticks just aren’t made for that, and auto-aim pretty much ruins the challenge.

They died once the new consoles arrived, instead you have your Vegas and your Warfighter and your Swat 4. It just isn’t nearly as good.

But yeah, AI. There are so many games out there that could’ve been leagues better with decent AI, like Deus Ex: HR. I don’t know whether it’s because publishers don’t want to invest in AI anymore, or because consoles can’t pull it, but something’s very wrong.

Then again, guys like Bohemia and Creative Assembly have each spent three games or more working on the same shitty AI, so it’s not like the PC is a wonderland.

the enemies’ AI in perfect dark on the N64 is still miles ahead of the AI of enemies in most games today

^ i missed out on that game hopefully when I hack my Vita I can run a 64 emulator on it and play it one day

@76 sticks are certainly not as precise as a mouse and never will be. And before I tell my AI squadmates in Operation Flashpoint or Arma2 to clear a room, I really prefer to go see myself. And how hard is it, to programm a friendly AI to run *behind* my line of fire?

Dino Crisis2 was possible on POSX, let alone Onimusha.

Someone should stop living off their parents money and get a grip.

@79 I really don’t know, and I have no idea why something like Swat 3 has never been attempted since.

It had these semi-small levels, especially in the beginning, and it looks to me like the AI was scripted specifically to do certain things in each of those rooms, which meant that it gave you the experience that they were covering near-perfectly.

There were still a few snags, and the game went bonkers once you started having a 5-man swat team face down a bazillion well armed terrorists (no duh!) but it was just brilliant at those stages.

I mean I know “scripting” isn’t as cool as dynamic AI, but it fucking worked!

Oh man… Everytime I read these “Graphics aren’t import to gameplay” arguments I just cringe….

The better the graphics the more immersive it will be. Yeah not every game requires high end graphics like Street fighter as mentioned before. But open world games can really benefit from all those extra Polygons, bigger maps, more objects like people, insects, animals, flora, realistic hair and faces, etc. People can guestimate how things are going to look and be but the truth is, until 2 to 3 years down the road we don’t really know.

Because of Consoles being the primary development platform for the biggest AAA games, most games were gimped, and didn’t take advantage of all the PC horsepower out there. Games like the Witcher 2 are few and far between. It looks good on console, but at the highest settings, the PC looks amazing.

The biggest thing for me this next gen will be the ram in these machines. Animations can be much more realistic than before, lighting and textures can be more realistic and sharper than before, we will start to have CGI like graphics and that will not improve gameplay. If the gameplay isn’t there, it will still suck, but with great gameplay, it will be far more immersive.

Anything that helps me get lost in a game’s world is great. better graphics just doesn’t mean prettier, it means better immersion.

I guess i think of it like Daggerfall to Morrowind, and from Morrowind to Skyrim. Morrowind is still overall the better game than Skyrim in my opinion, but Skyrim is far more immersive now. I prefer playing Skyrim for that immersion to Morrowind un-modded, and I don’t enjoy playing Daggerfall anymore because its so ancient. While graphics donm’t make the game better, it does make the world the game is in more alive, and thats what excites me the most.

let’s all watch black and white silent films again because special effects and all the cool shit they can do now doesn’t make the movie better (i’m in agreeance with fearmonkey!). Hurry up and hack your vita so you can play perfect dark theevilaires!

Everyone says they want great AI. What AI? that can kill you in a sec?

there are a lot of them from Unreal Tournament or even F.E.A.R.

you say that you want better AI and can’t say what you want from it. Just, “Me want good AI, du~u~uh.”

there are a lot of games with good AI. Just look at the The Last Of Us or Uncharted AI which have really smart enemies and companions. Deus Ex:HR was just an ok game. Bad programming skills and etc.

Erth +1

Too many games kick my ass as it is already.

@Erthazus Ever played dark souls? you could fire an arrow next to an enemies head and the enemy wont move until you get in their “range”. in perfect dark you could fire a gun in a room and a guard would come and check to see what the noise was and keep looking for you. If you shot the guard in the leg he limped and called out to his friends that kind of AI, duh .

@86, completely different genres. You want too much really.

LOL. This is from the guy who wants console hardware that can run Crysis at high settings for 500 bucks.

The difference between good and bad AI is pretty simple. Good AI is responsive and believable, bad AI is passive and immersion breaking.

It also depends on the game. If you want to make me feel like a badass cyberpunk hacker, then it’s a bit of an anti-climax putting me to work massacring guards who seem to be pulled straight out of special ed class. I literally felt like I was going to town on people with downs syndrome in Deus Ex.

OFP/ArmA is another example. It’s kinda hard to take a bunch of soldiers seriously when they’re moving like retarded furby dolls. If you have a genuine interest in a game like that, you will probably notice when the AI doesn’t know any combat drills.

At least in FEAR the soldiers maneuver, which is more than you can say for a lot of games these days.

Erthazus the FEAR AI was ok but nothing to write home about. Interesting that you name FEAR as when I mentioned the enemy AI of REACH you came laughing at me, whilst it is miles better. TLOU isn’t even released, so that’s another typical assumption from you. No wonder you don’t recognize good AI, when all you do is gazing at trees

I only played Unreal Tournament Multiplayer so I don’t know about that.

Good AI has exactly nothing to do with precise aiming at the player. That would obviously be an unfair AI and thats what you get in most of the games. Throwing grenades at you and killing you from a mile away isn’t the point. Small example: being spotted whilst lurking in the shadows behind a tree when you are 300m away should be considered wrong as long there is no watchtower with binoculars, if you get what I mean. Enemies running at you in open field is usually a sign of dumb AI, don’t you think?

And how many AIs are trying to flank you from different sides, whilst using cover. And while you named Uncharted, please tell me what was so great about the enemies? Popping their heads out of the cover now and then and throwing grenades? Man you really haven’t played a Halo game and bash the shit out of it but the Uncharted AI didn’t even reached Halo3 cleverness.

A good AI should also know when to retreat and to strike at another part of the level. Or to haunt you while beeing aware of it’s surroundings.

And clear a building without running up and down the frontdoor a couple of times …

yep cuz ai is a genre lol

Next gen consoles are nothing but old PC tech duct-taped together and called “next gen” for the casuals…

pretty much but i’ll still buy them lol

@91 Hey, duct tape is awesome stuff, you leave it alone!

@90 ?

@94 I think that was in reference to Erth’s earlier comment about something being a totally different genre. As if the genre dictated whether something could have a good AI or not. At least thats how I read it.

@DSB, “LOL. This is from the guy who wants console hardware that can run Crysis at high settings for 500 bucks.”

Hey, Genius. Crysis 1 is a 2007 year old game. Okay? We are in 2013 year. Last gen consoles PS3/360 were out in 2006/2007.

“OFP/ArmA is another example. It’s kinda hard to take a bunch of soldiers seriously when they’re moving like retarded furby dolls. If you have a genuine interest in a game like that, you will probably notice when the AI doesn’t know any combat drills.”

You want something impossible. Go play Call Of duty singleplayer then. AI there is scripted and it does not feel like furby dolls at all, they just do the same thing over and over again. You can’t do with the limitations like that. AI will never be responsive to a player as you think.

I understand about Deus Ex, but it is stupid because these guys see the most obvious path without communicating with each other.

@manamana, I saw Halo:Reach AI and it was the same shit like in previous games. They don’t do something special.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0q3WQO-OGg look here. They do what real soldiers really do. Impressive thing how they run and drop grenades and walk around you.

“Enemies running at you in open field is usually a sign of dumb AI, don’t you think?”

Not really because 90% of players do the same thing actually. It really depends on the situation. It should be first of all fun to kill the enemy.
you want enemy sodiers to sit under the cover all the time? Ha. Look at the multiplayer matches where kids scream: F***ING CAMPER HATE U!111

Good AI in my opinion should be a challenge first of all. They should not go to the most obvious path and they should connect/interact with each other and use their abilities at best.

A lot of people for example criticizing Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 AI for example because it is stupid, but in reality these guys do a lot of things right like regular soldiers do. They are searching you. You are dude in the suit that know how to use invisibility cloak, bsically not even human anymore and they are interacting with each other, throw different grenades. + you don’t afraid them at all because your brain know that it is just a game and you can be killed many times over and over again.

but people say that they are stupid, ofc if you are in the suit with sci-fi weaponry and ultimate “Armor” skin.

Opinion.

@59: Played both, liked both; completely disagree with you. But to be clear, I’m talking about the only proper version of Twilight Princess: the non-waggle, non-mirrored, 4:3-aspect Gamecube version. The bastardized Wii version will never defile any console of mine.

@Erthazus, overall your comments on this topic seem to be rather interesting. Agreed at most of them.

@manamana a good AI adapts to whatever the player does and actually thinks before proceeding with an action, sadly there isn’t a single one that is actually like this outside of Stealth games (MGS and Deus Ex: HR) and even those ones are full of flaws.

@96 I played FEAR, it was great. And yes, Reach has a lot of tremendous bad AI at times but most of the time it’s quite engaging. But when 90% of the players of a FPS run at you guns blazing over open field, it’s time to switch server or game entirely

@96 Fire and maneuver isn’t that hard to code. There are even community members who have made scripts that work well enough to simulate it to a limited extent, and in games like Combat Mission, it’s truly basic stuff.

Group A moves to point X, while Group B covers or fires at point Y. Then Group A covers or fires at point Y while Group B moves to point X, and so on.

It’s basic stuff.

Most likely Bohemia are too busy making idiotic graphic enhancements to worry about the gameplay.