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David Cage interview: interaction lost in a cinematic age

Wednesday, 22nd August 2012 14:43 GMT By Dave Cook

Beyond: Two Souls and Heavy Rain creator David Cage speaks to VG247′s Dave Cook about emotion, the importance of talented actors and what to expect from Beyond.

To what extent do emotions have a place in the games we play? When the working day is over and you just want to chill out, shut off and mow down hundreds of enemies with an assault rifle, should the game make you feel bad for taking those lives?

Quantic Dream founder David Cage is big on emotion, but even he feels that emotion without context is meaningless. No one asks you feel bad when stomping on Goombas in Mario games after all.

Cage believes that as performance capture technology gives rise to a new standard of acting in games, that emotion, morality and just being more aware of your actions could give rise to new trends in gaming, and send a strong warning shot to Hollywood.

“In Hollywood, many people still think that games are about shooting, so most actors have no interest in them. They don’t want to just be a face on an avatar who is shooting people.”

VG247: How vital is full performance capture to gaming, and do you hope to inspire other developers with your work on Beyond: Two Souls?

David Cage: Definitely. Of course we would love to inspire other studios, and we were really fortunate to release Heavy Rain, then have so many people talk about it and how they thought it was inspiring, including game creators and gamers.

With Beyond, we feel we have some pressure because the aim with Heavy Rain was to show that it was not just a coincidence, and that it could appeal to gamers who enjoy a variety of experiences. We hope to show that those people are still there.

The game is going to send a strong signal to the game industry, but also to Hollywood because of Ellen [Page's] involvement and the fact that she was so great during shooting. If the game is successful, and if her performance is seen as something that proved the quality of the experience, it’s going to be a signal to the industry that says ‘look, it’s possible to do games this way.’

But it will also be a signal for Hollywood to say, ‘this is now a respectable medium. If you are a talented actor, there are games that give you the opportunity to show what you can do, and to treat your emotions in the same way that films do.

In Hollywood, many people still think that games are about shooting, so most actors have no interest in them. They don’t want to just be a face on an avatar who is shooting people. So there is still some interest in Hollywood for games, but they are still really cautious. Beyond will send them interesting signals.

It’s interesting that Hollywood is still sceptical seeing that many developers are trying to make their games more cinematic – like films – but they are interactive. That’s a big difference, and when people saw Heavy Rain for the first time, many of them thought it wasn’t all that interactive.

The games industry is very conservative. Each time you try something different you need to explain, evangelise and give a lot of effort just to get people to go past their current expectations.

There will still be people who haven’t played Heavy Rain who think it’s a long movie with a couple of prompts, like Dragon’s Lair. I did promotion of Heavy Rain for two years and I tried to explain Heavy Rain, I showed it and I made demos.

I said, ‘Look, you are in control all the time. It’s not Dragon’s Lair, you’re in control.’ But people didn’t get it, or they thought, ‘Oh, my character doesn’t have a gun so I don’t know how I can interact.’

But that’s because our industry defines interactivity by shooting. If you don’t shoot you’re not interactive. What we tried to say with Heavy Rain is, You can be interactive without a gun.’ There are many other ways of interacting that are not through committing violent actions.

The same thing could – in all likelihood – happen with Beyond as well couldn’t it?

With Beyond we are going to change many things. You have direct control over Aiden, and this entity is something that will sound familiar to more people, and will attract them to the game and make them realise it’s not Dragon’s Lair-esque in any way.

It’s fully interactive, we have less cutscenes than many first-person shooters that I can see, and it’s just about interacting in a different way. It’s a different experience and I hope that people will be open-minded and open to trying something different.

There is a lot of debate now about the industry playing catch up with film, or films catching up with games. Would you say that neither are true, and that this is a convergence – a third form of media?

Beyond: Two Souls E3 debut trailer

It’s very strange what’s happening right now, because I think games have been inspired by movies for a very long time. Now we start to see films that seem to inspired by games too, and I think that’s a very natural thing.

Because if you take photography for example, they didn’t start from scratch. They were inspired by paintings first. When you think of cinema, they were inspired by photography and painting.

Why would games be the only medium that was born on its own, and not be inspired y anything else? I’m taking inspiration from wherever I can – films, TV series, comics, books – whatever. Just art in general, and that is a very natural thing to do.

Absolutely, and it’s still a young medium in relative terms. Where is this all heading do you think?

Regarding the future of the medium, what is interesting to see is how it becomes a polarised industry. On the one hand you have very ultra-casual games like Angry Birds – which is totally great, I love it, but they are extremely causal.

On the other end of the spectrum you see ultra hardcore games where you play FPS games online against other people, you compete and kill each other.

All of this is great, it’s fine with me, but I’m looking for something in-between that would have mainstream appeal that anyone could play and enjoy, but at the same time would have the sophistication of films and the technology of hardcore games.

This would deliver mainstream appeal in a new category of games, and hopefully this is what we are trying to now initiate with Beyond.

It’s interesting to see Ellen in your studio, performing her scenes without a real set. That must have been very difficult on her and the rest of the cast. Given the effort put in by the cast, would you like to see – down the line – game actors being awarded in the same way the Academy awards movie actors?

Of course, why not? If there are more games using actors to show what they can do, which means acting – and not using their face or their name – then of course, yeah that effort should be rewarded.

Ellen has been absolutely amazing on this thing, I mean she really blew me away, and every day on stage with her was a great moment of pleasure. Even as a spectator and just watching her was just fantastic.

But what’s interesting is – maybe you’re familiar with Kara?

Yes.

It’s been nominated in the Los Angeles short film festival, which is absolutely great. It means that, you know, worlds are blending and we had a fantastic actor on Kara whose name is Valorie Curry.

She’s done an amazing job too, and now she’s in this festival and I’m glad for her, glad for what we are doing, and glad for the game industry. Our worlds are coming together and it makes sense.

Seeing Ellen progress throughout shooting on Beyond, was there a clear learning curve for her and the rest of the cast? Did the challenge of acting with no props or sets help them grow as actors?

It’s really funny as we saw exactly the same curve with all actors. Before the first day of filming we really told them a lot. We sent them pictures and videos so by the time they arrived on stage they’d pretty much know what to expect.

Beyond – Ellen Page- Motion Capture Video

But with all the actors on the first day, they were all completely lost. They arrived on stage, realised it was empty – even though we showed them pictures so it wouldn’t be a surprise – and said, ‘fuck, it’s really empty.’

They looked at each other in their strange suits with shiny balls all over the place and they realised there were no props. Each time there was a chair or a table, it was an empty crate or a grill or something. On the first day they all thought, ‘f**k, what am I doing here?’ basically.

Oh dear. How hard was it to convince them to stick around and really get invested in your methods?

It was very strange because me as the director, I had to help them and say, ‘look, now you’re in this living room, there is a window here’, and of course there was nothing on stage, but I was trying to give them some references.

They were totally puzzled. But on the second day, all of them realised the level of freedom they had, and suddenly we saw a fantastic change in attitude. They went from wondering what they were doing to thinking, ‘I can do whatever I want.’

There is no camera they need to look at, no light they need to be under, and no problems with shadow. They can just be free to act with the other actors, and play their part.

They really enjoyed that level of freedom, and I think Ellen kept talking about the experience as an acting boot camp. That is crazy, but it made sense because she went from crying to laughing, then crying again, to running, then being chased by a helicopter.

She said it felt like shooting four movies in four weeks, so it was really intense, very surprising and probably quite refreshing. I was really glad because at the end of the session she said she would really recommend to any other actors to try this once, because it’s really incredible.

The end result is impressive but full performance capture also seems like a time-intensive procedure. As the tech behind it improves – like anything technical – the procedure will become quicker. Do you foresee more studios rushing to use this method if it becomes the norm?

It will be interesting to see, because the way we approach it is that we realise it’s a lot of work, not even for one game, but that it’s a lot of work for 15 years. It’s an investment in the tools and the technology, the tools to create the cameras, and a sense of direction.

It’s a pipeline, an organisation, and it’s really a lot of work. At the end of the day, I have no doubt that everybody will have the technology because technology is just about time and money. But then it’s all about scripts and what you want to do with that technology. Convincing people like Ellen took a lot of work, but we had a script in place.

“I would be interested to see a game approaching war like Platoon or Apocalypse Now – not just about shooting and glorifying violence [but] to show the other angle, and how difficult it is to be at war.”

One example you gave earlier was the notion of shooting a gun as interaction. If technology does allow for all games to be more realistic and emotive if developers choose,
could that not create a backlash where things like murder, gunplay and violence are involved?

Yeah I see what you mean. You are going to see games like Call of Duty having a similar or higher quality to this in a few years, no doubt. But at the end of the day, it’s still the same game. It’s you having a gun shooting guys, and the more you shoot, the more they come.

I would be interested to see a game approaching war like Platoon or Apocalypse Now, and then it would be very interesting – to not make a game just about shooting and glorifying violence by saying, ‘look how great it is to have a gun and shoot at people.’

It would be interesting to show the other angle, and how difficult it is to be at war.

The trauma.

Trauma, of course. This is what I’m interested in, and this is where the technology we use will really become interesting, to use it in a way that says something meaningful. But if you use it to do another shooter – that’s cool – but it’s not a big step.

Is that your aim when using this tech then – to say something meaningful?

Really I’m not trying to deliver a message, I just try to create emotional experiences. Yes this technology helps you because all of a sudden you have actors who look like real people, that can really deliver this level of emotion.

Then you feel empathy for them, and then you share in what they feel. So technology is a part of it, but at the end of the day it’s about the talent of the actor on stage, and the quality of the script that makes it work or not work.

Technology is just a tool and it shouldn’t be more than that. It’s great to have a good tool, but what matters is what you do with it.

With all of the effort, resources and acting talent put into Beyond, what do you hope people will come away with once they have completed the game?

That’s the most interesting part of my job, and for me the best moment on Heavy Rain was just listening to people talking about it. People who had kids felt shocked by what happened and really struggled to save the life of Sean.

What they did, what they missed, what they wanted to do well did they cut the finger or not? That’s the best part of my job because you realise how emotional this experience was for these people, and how they took that very seriously.

On Beyond I tried something different – it’s really a story about the life of someone. You will meet her as a kid and be with her during all her life, through the happy and difficult times. You will see the moments who make her who she is.

What I would love is for people to feel, by the end of Beyond, that Jodie Holmes is a friend, someone they know by heart. They will know how she would react in a situation, how she would thing, and how she feels.

If I can achieve that, I’ll be really glad.

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42 Comments

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  1. sybs

    I don’t understand why he’s complaining about interactivity.
    Heavy Rain was one of the least interactive games I’ve played. Especially the quick-time events.

    #1 2 years ago
  2. Malmer

    Great read. And when you read it all as one piece he comes of as much more humble than in some extracted quote.

    Anyways, I agree with most of the things he’s saying, and I really miss the middle path he’s talking about when it comes to games. The games that are not angry birds or hardcore online multiplayer fps. Where both story and accessibility matters. For me Alan Wake was such a game. And having an fps with a serious story about the dark aspects of war is really missing in the marketplace.

    Can’t wait for Beyond.

    #2 2 years ago
  3. Dave Cook

    @2 thanks man, it was a great chat with David, really insightful guy and yeah He sounds humble when you sit down and just talk with him. Could have kept going but our time was short :)

    #3 2 years ago
  4. Malmer

    @1 Sure it was interactive. Compare to CoD for instance. That game has binary interactivity. Either you shoot everyone as planned or you die and the game ends. One path forward. Basically zero interactivity beyond linear shooting mechanics. Sure you can choose which gun to use, but not much else. Heavy Rain had multiple ways the game could go depending on what you did. Mine and my friend’s playthroughs are vastly different when we talk about it. Couldn’t say the same thing about Black Ops (Although I did like the game).

    Not all interactivity is shooting, like Mr Cage says.

    #4 2 years ago
  5. RyuRanX

    How ironic. The last actual videogame David Cage has made was Omikron: The Nomad Soul back in 1999.

    #5 2 years ago
  6. Malmer

    @5: “Actual videogame”? You need to broaden your views of what a videogame is.

    #6 2 years ago
  7. PEYJ

    I’m glad this guy is making videogames. Loved Fahrenheit as well as Heavy Rain.

    About the lack of war games with a different perspective: Spec Ops: The Line actually delivers on that, storywise.

    #7 2 years ago
  8. Gadzooks!

    After playing heavy rain I felt I had stepped right back to the bad old days of laserdisc games. It is exactly like dragons lair except you have to move to the location where the godawful QTE starts!

    Cage is a fucking embarassment. He has no idea what gaming is and no idea what gamers want. No idea at all.

    Why couldn’t Sony ditch this useless twat instead of cutting one of their only worthwhile studios, Liverpool.

    #8 2 years ago
  9. DSB

    Two words for David Cage: Tunnel vision.

    #9 2 years ago
  10. Dave Cook

    @9 how so man? I think he has many great ideas, he perhaps just isn’t executing them correctly. To call him narrow minded is a big step.

    #10 2 years ago
  11. ManuOtaku

    Iam with the people that think heavy rain was an step back in terms of traditional gameplay mechanics, compare to his previous works omikron and Indigo Prophecy (Farenhait), to much QTE, i think Asuras Warth had more balance between QTE and traditional gameplay (brawler) with a good story than heavy Rain, and the funny thing is that Asuras was the more criticize out of the two for the over use of QTE.

    #11 2 years ago
  12. Da Man

    Videogames like HR are a logical product of a multimillion corporation making money off decadent lemmings whose mental development stopped amidst their adolescent age and whose understanding of human psyche, God or perception doesn’t go beyond the limits of Fight Club or a couple of Nietzsche quotes (at best).

    After all, that’s what all this mature coolness of supposedly ‘growing up’ videogame industry has always been about, with one or two exceptions here and there.

    Oh well, still better than phallic swords or Steven King wannabes.

    #12 2 years ago
  13. absolutezero

    Did you play Heavy Rain?

    #13 2 years ago
  14. Da Man

    Who’re you referring to. Can’t say I would call that ‘playing’.

    #14 2 years ago
  15. absolutezero

    I’ll take that as a no then.

    #15 2 years ago
  16. Ali

    Can’t really say that I agree with the guy a lot. I at least finished and truly enjoyed Indigo Prophecy. Can’t say the same about Heavy Rain.

    #16 2 years ago
  17. Meta_Dragon

    @8

    David Cage is an embarrassment? How? Oh right, you must be fan of annoying, tired FPS games that don’t change and release yearly sequels. I see your logic now. And i wasn’t aware that you speak for ALL gamers. Good to know now.

    #17 2 years ago
  18. Da Man

    I did, for as long as I felt necessary. Do I have to have all the trophies for it to say that David Cage is acting like a pompous.. disagreeable person on purpose because he was fortunate enough to have something like Sony as an advertiser and publisher for his.. mature toy?

    #18 2 years ago
  19. Christopher Jack

    Obviously the critics disagree with these 2 Xbox loyalists. Just because it’s not a traditional FPS, doesn’t make it any less of a game.

    #19 2 years ago
  20. Da Man

    I take it I’m allegedly one of those.

    Surely if I was the one I wouldn’t describe Gears of War as a massive pile of.. negative experience. Or Fable at that. (just to name a few) Critics’ stances are directly proportional to Sony’s advertising budget.

    #20 2 years ago
  21. OrbitMonkey

    ^ No your a mature intelligent book reading kinda guy who has a pathological hatred of a videogame manufacturer.

    Which is not the same as being a fanboy of a videogame manufacturer… But it’s on the same coin.

    #21 2 years ago
  22. Da Man

    Ico was a much better videogame. So was Lbp. If you asked me what were the most important videogames released this gen I’d cite Lbp near the top. Feeling better now?

    They aren’t just manufacturers btw, that would be Foxconn..

    #22 2 years ago
  23. Gadzooks!

    1. Its been a long time since critics gave a fuck about gameplay. Reviews are mostly about ‘cool’, shineys and hype these days and are largely irrelevant.

    2. I play approx 5 hours per MONTH of shooters. RPG and indie games are my staple.

    Instead of giving millions to Cage, Sony should invest more in their actual game studios. Give budget to the Pixeljunk guys for example. Thats where innovative gameplay is, not in the horseshit Cage produces.

    Imagine what Q-games could do with a AAA budget! More than fucking awful movies interspersed with bouts of Simon says, thats for sure.

    #23 2 years ago
  24. Christopher Jack

    If that’s really the case, then why do you continually troll the manufacturer that support the indie devs by much more than its chief competitors? They’re also the only one producing new & unique franchises this late in. No one’s denying that Sony’s start was a massive cluster fuck, but you’d have to be extremely arrogant to claim that things haven’t changed.

    #24 2 years ago
  25. Erthazus

    oh gosh, two xbox fanboys came to the sony thread to shit all over it for no reason at all.

    If you don’t like Adventure genre then it’s your problem. I’m glad that someone makes games like these this day and make it with high budget. It’s not about platforming or shooting. It’s about puzzles, interactive storytelling and that’s it.

    I’m a big fan of Syberia games for example. It was such a fantastic experience in the past on the PC. So i’m glad for Beyond: Two souls.

    #25 2 years ago
  26. ManuOtaku

    Well heres the thing, when people go in a nintendo related topic and state things like Da Man, and gadzooks did here, we the nintendo defenders are the fanboys and the zealots, but when those before mentioned guys, for example, do this on a sony thread they are the fanboys, really i dont understand this differentiation, i think is good to criticize nintendo on almost every topic, but is bad if it is on sony related topics ***shakes and sratch head noise****.

    #26 2 years ago
  27. Gadzooks!

    #25

    You dont believe Sony supports indies more than MS. You can’t possibly be that stupid.

    On the other hand, you and your army of obvious alt accounts are fully paid-up member of the SDF so stupidity is pretty much a requirement.

    If your fragile little ego can’t stand your beloved corporation being criticised then go find a carebear forum.

    #27 2 years ago
  28. Da Man

    Haloperidol for #26, fast.

    #28 2 years ago
  29. Deacon

    ‘you can’t possibly be that stupid’

    Well I guess I’m that stupid too then.

    You don’t sound like a fucking twat at all there mate. Not at all.

    Because it’s a well known fact that MS / Ninty are championing indie devs WAY more than Sony are right now.

    Yup. Sure.

    #29 2 years ago
  30. Christopher Jack

    @28, Lulz, Paranoid much? No one else on this site shares the same mannerisms as myself & the only other name I’ve gone by is Crysis which is still this account but I renamed it. Come on, who else do you think I am?

    #30 2 years ago
  31. Da Man

    Let’s be honest here, #30.. if it was Apple GZ was taking the piss out of and it was some phallic sword wielding, destiny fighting bishounen with a weirdo haircut he was complimenting you would be sitting there, +1′ing each and every one of his posts, rofling.

    Hence take your shitty hypocrisy somewhere else, alongside you teh oriental corporate love, two-face.

    #31 2 years ago
  32. Deacon

    haha.. you’ve got me sussed eh mate ; )

    I cannot STAND fucktards throwing around ‘you cannot possibly be that stupid’ to something which is neither easily quantifiable nor supported in any way in the rest of the ‘comment’.

    It irked me. As a lot of these comments seem to be doing lately.

    #32 2 years ago
  33. DrDamn

    @28
    Each platform has advantages and disadvantages for indies. PC is obviously the platform of choice, but as far as consoles go there is a general feeling from indie developers that Sony are a more attractive option. Stuff like the Pub Fund from Sony which allows indie devs to self publish and retain IP and the way the Dash redesigns pushed XBLIG further into the background.

    Depends on your perspective of course, consumer or developer, and preference for type of title.

    #33 2 years ago
  34. Gadzooks!

    #34

    Are you suggesting indie devs cannot self publish and retain IP rights, because XBLIG wants to have a word with you. Many hundreds of times.

    As with all things, Sony makes a big song-and-dance about the few indies they put on PSN, while MS just keep the content flowing constantly, week after week.

    #34 2 years ago
  35. Deacon

    As #34 said, there are pros and cons for each.

    If I were an indie dev I would target either Steam or PSN – based solely on the feedback from the dev community.

    You think cheese is tastier than ham. YOU CAN’T POSSIBLY BE THAT STUPID.

    #35 2 years ago
  36. viralshag

    I’m the same as #16, I played through and finished Fahrenheit and really enjoyed it. Heavy Rain was just boring and I couldn’t play much of it.

    Even my sister that was sitting around at the time commented on how boring it looked. Then she suggested firing up the Kinect to play “one of the dancing games” to which I replied by turning everything off going to bed.

    #36 2 years ago
  37. DrDamn

    @35
    Sure they can, but it’s a mire of a publishing platform infested with clones, cash-ins and tripe. There are some gems in there but they are buried by the dross and more significantly the interface. Indie devs don’t actually like it as a platform. It’s a really good idea let down by execution. From an innovating indie dev perspective it’s terrible.

    http://www.indiegamemag.com/indie-developers-feel-distanced-by-microsoft-while-sony-is-being-very-supportive/#.UDYYAcFlQn8

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Braid-Creator-Praises-Sony-Over-Microsoft-For-Indie-Games-174589.shtml

    #37 2 years ago
  38. ManuOtaku

    Regarding XBLA vs PSN, i think like most of the previous comments indicated, both have their strenghts and weaknesses, and maybe PSN is above XBLA due their friendly approach torwards developers, but i will like to say that microsoft with their dream build and play iniciative, is doing something good, and is an step in the right direction in order to be more friendlier with developers, having seen first hand the results of this iniciative, with the game DUST, done by just one man dev team creating such a marvelous game and being the winner of this contest, i really think they are doing somethings good, and i hope is a sign of things to come, but i understand like i said that both had their pros and cons.

    #38 2 years ago
  39. OrbitMonkey

    @32, and theirs the hatred. You eat some bad noodles one time?

    #39 2 years ago
  40. Gadzooks!

    #38

    There are as many pro-MS indie articles out there. Take Limbo for instance. Sony refused to publish it because they wanted to keep the IP. So that ‘lovey dovey indie-Sony smooch-up’ isnt quite as lovie or dovie as it seems.

    MS provide the (world class industry leading) tools and opportunity for ANYONE to get their dev chops together and get their work out there on the marketplace. Sony don’t do that.

    As manu mentioned, dream.build.play is huge exposure for indies looking to move on up.

    #40 2 years ago
  41. DrDamn

    @41
    And the articles on Fez about patch costs? The Sony Pub fund which matches indie investment, helps with design, allows them to self publish and helps promote the games. Sony sending out free dev kits to indie developers.

    Pros and cons to both sides. The clear point is that one is not necessarily better than the other though is it?

    #41 2 years ago
  42. Gadzooks!

    #43

    Well as I see it one is clearly better for indie devs than the other.

    XBLIG requires no devkit and no platform holder assistance. I could put a game up on there tomorrow if I were so inclined. That is indie development. What Sony does is more akin to XBLA. They pick which projects are published, not the developers.

    #42 2 years ago