Liveblog: debate on Tomb Raider’s “rape” elements

@51, No point closing the door after the horse has bolted mate

Seriously? People should try to do some research before writing articles like this.

First off: The rape scene makes perfect sense. Lara is stranded on an island which many people have stranded on before. The group of men which her attacker belongs to has been there for several years (maybe even decades). They already seem to be extremely violent (What with forcing everyone who gets to the island to join them/accept their leadership. They practically seem to treat every new arrival as cattle.) and the guy in question probably hasn’t seen a woman in several years. Combine all of these things and you’ve got a rapist.

Furthermore, they don’t show Lara as a “weak” character because it wouldn’t make sense for her to simply be strong without having been “weak”. I mean, she isn’t even weak. She’s normal. In previous games, Lara’s personality was flat. She was cool, “badass”, sarcastic,…and that’s about it. Now she is a normal person. She’s as strong or weak as you’d expect a normal 21-year-old to be. The reason why they’re doing an origin story, why Lara has to go through this transition from normal to “badass” is to create a connection between player and character and to give the character some depth and credibility. I mean, have you seen the kind of stuff she has done in some of the games? No normal person would do that. Of course, there has to be some sort of catalyst, some event that turned her into that adrenaline-junkie. And in the case of the rape scene, that is the catalyst for her to kill someone for the first time. In self-defence, of course, but it’s still the first step towards becoming the gun-toting adventurer we all know and love. I mean, that’s understandable, right? As a normal person, you wouldn’t just strand on this island and start shooting people.

Furthermore, the argument that male “heroes” are never presented as weak before they become the “heroes” we know is wrong. May I just remind you of Uncharted 3 and the flashback chapters in which a scared, teenage Nathan Drake gets chased by thugs and almost gets shot only to be rescued by his soon-to-be mentor Victor Sullivan? I mean, I’m not going to argue that men and women are still being perceived differently in our society and I, of course, also agree that that’s a bad thing. I just don’t think that it has got anything to do with this reboot of the Tomb Raider franchise. Even those male heroes would have needed some sort of catalyst to turn into who they are. If anything, those games have to be blamed for portraying their protagonists unrealistically. Why blame Tomb Raider for wanting to give Lara Croft a credible personality? People should just stop thinking that every time sex pops up in a video game it has to be anti-feminist. Of course, that has been true for a lot of games in the past but generalisation is never a good thing, so don’t use it just because it benefits your stereotyping, unqualified opinion.

And maybe it is used as a story gimmick but so what? Murder is being used as a story gimmick in pretty much every episode of every crime thriller TV show. I’ve never heard anyone complain. Rape happens. In an ideal world it wouldn’t but this is the real world and rape happens. Would you rather nobody talked about it and we just ignored it altogether? No? Then why are you against it being displayed in a mature and realistic way as part of a story? Oh right, because it’s a video game story. And we all know that video games are being developed and played exclusively by socially deprived, heterosexual, horny nerd-weirdos whose only reason to put a female into a game is because they find her hot, right? Stereotyping goes both ways. Remember that the next time you write a poorly-researched article that tries to condemn the very thing it does.

My opinion is that if it’s a part of the story, it can be a powerful tool in helping people to understand how much of a horror rape can be. If it’s just there for shock value then I’d say to do away with it.

The average person absolutely cannot wrap their mind around how it feels to be violated in that sort of way, and to increase empathy by making them understand is a good thing. I think that entertainment could serve a purpose to actually do that.

On some levels, I’m actually kind of liking what they’re doing with this, and making people understand what it means to take a life, graphically so, or what it means to be a participant in rape. Violence, sexual or not, is not a fun thing and I can tell you this from my own experiences. Neither is dealing with someone who has murderous urges.

So I think it can be a powerful tool for increasing empathy with victims of rape and violence, but it has to be done right.

Just for information, you do understand that there will be no actual rape scene in this game? Molestation yes, and it will be implied of course, but it will never come close the actual act of rape, which actually makes this whole article kind of redundant.

I agree though, that the actual gravitas connected to the scene is not the molestation/attempted rape but Lara killing her first human being (which makes this article even more redundant). Although in self defense this could be some powerful stuff character wise if they can pull it off (which I doubt, but at least this way I’ll maybe be positively surprised when I play the game )

So it seems people think there’s no issue because it’s not actually rape? Good grief!

The game might not have an actual rape scene in it but sexual violence is more than implied. What’s really outrageous is the fact that certain people thought it acceptable to use rape as a vehicle on which to try and hype and sell a product. That’s pretty disgusting. Rape is a crime, not a feature. There should have been some fairly loud alarm bells ringing in their heads when they starting spouting off in an interview about using rape as a character and player motivation, regardless of whether or not the game contained it. It’s a massive error of judgement.

Effectively what’s been implied is “rape makes you stronger” and that’s stratospherically wrong.

^ well put.

#57: “What’s really outrageous is the fact that certain people thought it acceptable to use rape as a vehicle on which to try and hype and sell a product.”

Yes, this is exactly right. People who say, “Hey why can films do this but not games”, it’s all about context. A film wouldn’t promote itself by putting this scene front and centre in the marketing and talking about how we, as a player, should react to it. Also it’s pretty messed up messaging to combine that with quotes like,
“Her skin is still bare on the arms and there are going to be rips and tears on her clothes, but it won’t be about being revealing. It’s a way of saying that through these tough situations, there is a beauty and vulnerability coming through. I think that is sexy in its own way.”

Maybe you can cover difficult and potentially taboo subjects in a sensitive, insightful way within video games….but it looks like this is completely removed from anything close to that.

The liveblog’s live now. We’ll be starting in 15 minutes.

For christ’s sake people.

We constantly talk about the validity of gaming as a medium, as an artform and as a method of complex storytelling, then the minute something comes along which is quite common in ALL other forms of media, we throw a shitfit!

No one is going to take games seriously if WE are constantly questioning its ability to handle grown up themes.

Sometimes I fucking hate this industry.

I have a question; why are you all reacting to reactions rather thasn waiting for the game to be released and see what elements are actually in the game context rather than small snippits taken out of complete context.

Would the panellists agree with the position that if this were a scene in a movie, nobody would bat an eye-lid?

Games are not art.

They’re escapism into a world where you can do the things that you can’t do in real life.

You can’t compare them to paintings, theater or movies.

Now that Crystal Dynamics have confirmed that there is no attempted rape in the game, is there anything left to discuss with respect to the new characterisation of Lara Croft?

Then surely something as horrible as rape is even worse in those mediums because theres nothing you can do to stop it. You have to sit and watch, which is even more uncomfertable than being able to stop it yourself which the addition of interactivity would bring.

Games as entertainment can be viewed on the same level as cinema, literature and whatever else.

@61: That is the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard.

Master Chief as an example is awful. He was ripped from his life and became an experiment. A character like Drake would be much more appropriate and given that we know he was an orphan, a scenario that could certainly have played out…

Also Mafia II is a clear example of a sexual act happening to a male protagonist. There’s an attempted prison rape scene.

Helen, Pat, the only game I can think of that has a genuinely vulnerable male character is the dad in Heavy Rain – and even that has a played-for-sexiness bit where a female character is forced to get undressed (she kicks the guy’s ass afterwards, which I guess makes it okay in Quantic Dream’s eyes).

This whole thing feels like comics’ attempts to be more ‘mature’ in the late 90s – most writers seemed to equate that with female characters being sexually assaulted and male characters getting addicted to heroin, rather than genuinely trying to portray a greater range of emotion. And to the people saying ‘Oh, you don’t just become a hero without a catalyst,’ – really? You can’t think of a real person who’s become strong and confident without a horrible, traumatic event in their lives? Or is that just something you’ve got from Batman?

@66:

Not by any means.

Film/theater/etc are all just stories.

They’re either true or not. It’s just like watching the news to a large extent. You see/hear what happened or what someone says happened, and you react to it as you want.

When it becomes interactive, now you’re getting involved. And for every 100 normal people who would be horrified at the thought of letting a sexual crime be perpetrated on a vulnerable woman, there’s an Anders Breivik or a Graham Coutts, who will get some sort of sick arousal out of intentionally failing the mission.

So where do we stop?

Do we start making games that explore child abuse and peadophilia, justifying them as being a similar artistic exploration as Lolita?

Re: response. Well you clearly don’t want it to happen. I think there’s been a miscommunication somewhere that has drastically altered the discussion. Regardless of whether it was a man or a woman, you would want to save/protect them from any form of sexual assault surely?

#67

Well, that was an intelligent comeback. Congratulations.

@ Helen Lewis: How does the interactivity affect it when this only occurs (as far as we know it) in a cut-scene?

Re: developers talking to the press. I think it’s very hard for them when there’s often such a huge backlash to the things they say. Why risk putting yourself in the firing line?

If the game in question stood to benefit from the inclusion of themes like those, I see no reason why games can not handle the same level of subject matter as anything else. Heavy Rain already tackled the subject of a child killer, not all that well but I would say it did just as well as The Lovely Bones did.

Simply saying because its interactive is a cop-out. Before video games people were scared on movies, then books, then music then whatever else they could easily pin blame on.

Postal 2 is the biggest work of art, it’s only as violent and erm, chaotic as you are.

I wonder what will come after the video games?

Postal is actually a good example because it went through the same kinda thing as is happening now.

Then it got a movie version just as offensive, if not more and no one gave a single shit.

I also find it very interesting the general differing reaction to both sexual assault and murder. No-one bats an eye at a murdered, hell, you often play one, but sexual assault is deemed as something far far worse. I’m not debating as to whether one is worse than the other as both are deplorable, but it’s a widely had belief that a rapist is a far greater evil than a murdered.

Can this then be used as a means to portray the evil of someone, rather than the oddly perceived weakness of the victim?

Oh dear.

The modern, free thinking, democratic age. Nothing is certain, everything is relative.

Postal2 should’ve been canned. Disagree? Oh well, hurr.

Re: Lara is an action character. She WAS an action character. This is both a reboot and a prequel/origins and as such everything can change, that’s what a reboot is.

Sounds like this is turning into a discussion about the “rules” around re-booting particular IPs. Character [x] can do this, but shouldn’t do that etc. If so, you’re all straying into whiny fanboy territory.

Okay, I’ve tried quite hard to articulate this properly:

Nobody’s saying that you can’t have rape/sexual assault scenes in any form of media. Nobody’s even saying that they have to be tastefully handled, whatever that means. I won’t seek those films/games/books out, because I don’t like them, but that’s my own taste.

The problem is very much that it’s Lara. As has been pointed out, she’s one of very few strong female characters in games, and people – including me – don’t like that she’s being made into a victim because the developers don’t have the wit or imagination to make her character more interesting in other ways. It doesn’t matter that one guy in Mafia has been the victim of an attempted sexual assault: what matter is that it wouldn’t happen to Solid Snake, or Leon Kennedy or Ryu. And it doesn’t even matter that rape is something that happens in real life, or that it would be a threat that some sort of ‘real life’ Lara Croft would face from ‘real life’ enemies, because videogames like Tomb Raider aren’t about real life. That’s all.

Har-de-hat… Helen Lewis eh?

No thanks.

Anyway, I’m just speaking in general. My original comment in this section was in response to #61. So I’m not talking about this specific game.

@76:

It’s not a cop out. The danger here is that you end up giving giving sick people the opportunity to, to a certain extent, live out their fantasies by physically and visually getting involved in doing things that destroy lives.

That doesn’t happen when you read a book, watch a film or watch Crimewatch.

There’s a clear difference.

@79:

Interesting point.

Just out of interest… Has anyone here ever ‘used’ a prostitute in a GTA game and then ‘killed’ her?

@85: Discussing the moralities of prostitution is a far more complex discussion, but it would be an entirely different game if you took a woman to your car and raped her, over paying for a prostitutes time.

@84, Just because a book isn’t visual or a movie interactive doesn’t mean scenes of rape wouldn’t influence those types of people.

I don’t see how there is a clear difference between games and other forms of media. They still represent the same thing and in most cases, it will always be down to how the individual responds to what they’re seeing.

I don’t see what the difference is in what you’re saying about this and others saying that violent games have an effect on people… which a lot of people would write off.

*Sorry, edited this comment a fair bit.

“My main problem is that it’s lazy”. So, we’re all okay with arguing *completely* subjectively here, then? There’s no objective point we’re trying to get across anymore? /shrugs.

The problem with any rape scene is if it was out of context, or sought to glamorise rape and/or make it an erotic act. This is the same in interactive AND passive forms of entertainment. As far as we know, Tomb Raider does neither.

Sarah says Lara is “raped into being awesome” and that it’s crass. Far from it, the scene appears to put Lara in a relatively believable situation (pretty girl stranded on island surrounded by nefarious males). Having one of these males attempt to exploit their isolation and Lara’s vulnerability doesn’t seem all that out of place, given the context. As a narrative device to explain the first time Lara kills another human, I’d say it’s pretty believable – again, given the context. Whether or not it’s crass depends on how it comes out in the final edit and is *intensely* subjective.

Personally, I don’t think you ought to ring fence rape and forbid its use as a narrative plot point. If presented intelligently, it can be a powerful, emotionally engaging dramatic device – like murder, torture or other forms of abuse.

Above all, I certainly don’t think we should be in a position to impose restrictions on developers as to how they can reboot characters. Strikes me, there’s too many shades of the ME3 ending fiasco towards the end of this discussion.

You don’t want Lara to be involved in an attempted rape scene because it’s Lara and it doesn’t fit in with your previously established understanding of her character? That’s hardly the most open minded, creativity-embracing attitude, is it? It implies that you don’t like your preconceived notions being challenged – a very conservative and reactionary viewpoint.

@86:

Exactly.

Maybe that’s because IRL, killing occasionally becomes justifiable. It’s ok to kill a bad guy, so ‘killing’ polygons and textures doesn’t really conflict with our innate nature when we put the pad down.

We see it as being different to rape, which is never justifiable in any situation.

@87:

I never said that violence is down to people playing violent games.

My main point is simply that you can’t justify what freedoms we should allow people in games by using non-interactive media as a reference point.

The two things are different.

Basically, I’m saying that if you want to give justification to putting content that involves sexual crimes into games, you (not specifically you, viralshag) need to find another reason.

@90, I probably haven’t been following this as much as I should have but has it been confirmed if this is an interactive section of the game or just a cut-scene?

If it’s a playable part of the game then I can understand where you’re coming from, and I would say I agree.

For me, my point is if it adds to the character and story and is done in the right way – I don’t think it would hurt either character or game.

Gheritt – yes, I am being subjective. Am I saying that it shouldn’t be *allowed*? No, apart from real extremes, then obviously creators/developers can do what they want. Am I saying that I, personally, have a problem with it, that it makes me less inclined to buy the game, and that I’m disappointed in the decisions that have been made up to this point? Yes: that’s exactly what I’m saying.

>>You don’t want Lara to be involved in an attempted rape scene because it’s Lara and it doesn’t fit in with your previously established understanding of her character?

That’s right. And also, as I mentioned further up, because she’s one of the only strong female characters in games. And because it’s something that is difficult to retcon later – once Frank Miller made Catwoman a prostitute, that was pretty much a part of her character forever, whatever anybody thought about it.

>>That’s hardly the most open minded, creativity-embracing attitude, is it?”

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t do it. I’m saying that I’m not going to support it. Especially when I don’t think there’s anything really ‘creative’ about it.

Hey Joel, my comments weren’t directed at you, more towards the panellists who clearly moved the goalposts of their main argument as the discussion went on.

Now *that’s* lazy, IMHO.

I don’t like Rape in games. Here is my thinking: video games are a visual and interactive entertainment. I don’t find rape entertaining in any sort of form. Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. I don’t need or want it in my games.

It has zero to do with realism. Zero to do with enhancing a story. Zero to do with a game reflecting real life. It has to do with class and respect for the people that have been attacked. There are some subjects that simple do not need to be in video game entertainment. Rape is one of them.

My two cents.

@94 – I don’t think it’s supposed to be ‘entertaining’, but used as a strong narrative point. And by burying our heads in the sand and saying “I don’t like something so I don’t want it discussed in my games” is perhaps a greater insult to those who actually have to deal with it.

ok i missed the rape discussion.

so what happened?
who got raped?

@91:

They’ve said it isn’t in the game at all.

I’m not 100%, but from what I understand, during E3, some guy claimed that there would be a part of the game where players would need to ‘protect’ Lara from attempted rape. There was a reaction to that, and now CD are claiming that the orignal guy was misunderstood, and there is no such part anywhere in the game.

@95 wow you really have that all backwards. Understandable and I am sure your not alone on the subject.

Strong nerrative point?

Use something else.

As for burying our heads and pretending it didn’t happen…

You hold video games too highly in regaurd. Puting it in a game doesn’t make it better. It isn’t a coaping mechanisim for anyone. Having it in a game doesn’t make soiciety better. All it does is monitize aspects of a horrible crime. Video games are not a meaningful platform for public discussion of societies problems. Your giving games too much credit. They are interactive entertainment only. That is all they will ever be. They are not some grass roots movement to right social injustices.

Maybe it makes you feel empowered to think you can stop a video game rape. Fine. Strange, but fine. But do not, for one moment think playing a rape scene in a video game will benifit anyone.

I worked(albeit, indirectly) with abused women. Trust me your not helping them or the situation by playing the anti rape pov/char in a video game.

You have a very niave way of looking at it.

At the end of the day game pubs can put anything they want in their games. Doesn’t mean anything. Just someone trying to turn a buck over something they feel will get them extra attention.

I think @83 articulated it well.

Like I’ve tried to explain myself earlier in this thread, the problem isn’t with the scene itself. The problem is with the approach. It’s not because we want Lars to remain a “badass”. It’s because it’s a lazy attempt at characterisation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Don‘t_Cry_(film)

People talk about how it’s okay in films, so it should be okay in games. If you actually have any knowledge of other forms of media, you’d know that it’s considered a lazy cop-out in those mediums too. Male abuse for characterisation of women is chauvinistic at its core, and a distinctly male approach. You rarely see a woman write a story about men being abused by women.

In comic book culture, this has taken on the legendart name of Women in Refrigerators”. it was a list compiled way back in 1999 that showed an uncomfortable trend in comic books in which female characters only relevant character development was death, rape and depowerment. Typically by men.

The only people who think rape / female abuse is a strong narrative point are men. Most women are sick of it, because it’s so nauseatingly common and overdone.

One scene would be fine, but everything we’ve seen about the game so far have an uncomfort focus on weakness, and not in a good way. She’s constantly being abused and hurt, and she’s *constantly* screaming. Oh thats rights, the writers want us to see her pain so we’ll want to “protect her”? What a load of sexist bullshit.

At no point in any of this do we ever see her in control. We never see her instinct take over or adrenaline think in. We just see a week girl, constantly afraid, constantly struggling, constantly losing. It’s puerile. We actually need to see some strength in her come true in these trailers.

I bet the main male cast will all be tough, scruffy and show little emotion, while Lara is freaking out constantly and not in control of herself. Because women are the only ones allowed to be weak.

@98 I think it’s a little disheartening to suggest that video games story’s cant have any depth or meaning to them, and I think it’s ludicrous to suggest that the designers don’t at least try.

Whether they succeed or not is of course a completely different story.

I never said they can’t have depth Mike. I just think that somethings don’t fall into the realem of entertainment. And something as poingent as rape is going to be such a tough subject to attempt. My beef was more in the notion that was suggested that by having rape in a game it could somehow be a respectful and positive thing.

At the end of the day, no matter what is done to a game, it is still a just a game.