Liveblog: debate on Tomb Raider’s “rape” elements

Oh yeah a writer from The Guardian is a great idea… Or something -.-’
Ontopic though, why even discuss it when you don’t know all the facts? Like what is leading up to it? Who has taken her captive? Why is she taken captive? What kind of person is it that is trying to rape her? How does it fit in with the story of that particular mission? Seriously, don’t get offended by what a game does, the the whole sexism thing that was being written about a while back. If you do get so easily offended, you might as well pick up a book. Oh wait, there is rape, genocide, molestation and murder in those, ah well, best idea is to isolate yourself from the world then i reckon

Quick time event out of rape!

In all serious… no rape in games please. Video games have a bad enough rep for having murder and hookers in them.

Rape as part of the story? Thats “nice”. I wouldn’t want rape as a feature for any game that you have to rape people but getting rape attempted gives a bit of realism to it considering the circumstances.

And we all know what the rape attempt on Lara will end like.

Even without playing the game.

Context and presentation here is important. Just look at the way ‘Girl with the Dragon Tattoo’ (Both Finchers and the swedish version) did it. The scene was highly disturbing, showed her completely helpless and vulnerable. Yet we don’t see her as a victim, she was a victim of the crime, yes, but she is not A victim.

For me it actually shows strength. The fact that she could endure something so disgusting and horrible and yet not only live on, but seek revenge (not impulsive, but thought-out). She would punish the person who did that to her and after that, go on.

It was a traumatizing event, but it would not change her.

It showed that she wouldn’t go down, that she could endure.

So if the developer thinks they want Lara to endure this, if they think that this is what it takes for her to be a Croft, they should do it. But they have to be really, really tricky about it.

WTF is this. Out of the entire trailer of TR , they manage to pick out a 5-second part where frankly NOTHING happened (it was more like attempted molestation and nothing I mean not something out of the world) that these people are barking about. Its not that she was raped, these useless “mainstream morons” assumed so based on their thoughts. These kind of crimes are mainstream things in other entertainment mediums, so why the is there so much ruckus when something this small is shown in games. Also I think the game rating agencies like PEGI are more than capable of rating games, so these people from guardian can just stop whining and stop defaming games (good games I must say)

If the game case as an 18 on the front then who the fuck cares?
Its like 60years ago film critics having this exact same discusion about film. I mean, games are in its infantcy in terms of story and the way its told but talking about such things is just stupid to me… Specially when you here worse on the 6 o clock news EVERY DAY!

“Hey, let’s ‘evolve’ Lara Croft by having people try to rape her!”

What? It is quite obvious that you as the player are protecting her from being raped. The person who is trying to rape her is portrayed as a villain. I can’t believe that video games are still seen as a medium in which you can’t have any mature themes. Grow up, people! And she will kick his ass for sure.

@8,
“Specially when you here worse on the 6 o clock news EVERY DAY!”
That is precisely the reason I stopped watching news a long time ago. I never have good things to show.Just rape this and murder that and the show is over.

Let’s get one thing straight from the start. The victim or would-be victim of a rape is not the animal in the equation. I have plenty of respect for real animals, but I think we ought to avoid the comparison in this context altogether. But if we are portraying anyone as being somehow less-than-human, let’s reserve that for the attackers and predators who actually see sexual violence as sexually gratifying. They are neither like humans nor like animals, but they are more accurately true monsters.

Jesus Christ. The complete inability of this community to have any sort of mature discussion about an adult topic without responding with vitriol and anger is fucking appalling.

I have tonnes of thoughts on this subject, but I’m not going to waste my breath. It’s just going to end up being blasted apart without any serious discussion anyway.

Wow! Some of you people.. are so weak and out of touch, scared of even what happens in videogames. You are so lucky you live in this age. You would be dead otherwise.

Also I dont think something like this (rape) would happen in TR , it would be disastrous for the series as it might lose many of its fans. Its just suggested in that part of the trailer and films go WAAAAAAAAAAY beyond this. Everyone knows that and they dont give a shit to that but if its a game, then OMG this is bad. This discrimination towards games must stop.

@11: Don’t leave me! \o

I just enjoy the fact that no one would raise an eyebrow if this was Natalie Portman in some big pretentious Hollywood production.

This is more a case of “videogames shouldn’t do this” based on a general bias, more than it’s ever going to be about rape imagery. It’s just another witch hunt.

I don’t want rape attempts in my games. But people do get raped on a daily basis, so I don’t see how you’re doing storytelling any favors by trying to censor it, if it ever pops up as part of a narrative. And you wouldn’t in any other medium, from books to cinema.

Has anyone watched Game of Thrones lately? Where’s the outrage?

HBO and George RR Martin can slit babies throats, but Crystal Dynamics can’t subject a woman to an attempted sexual violation? Fuck right off.

Rape attempt…..right…the part where Lara kicks that dude? Barely a rape attempt, people are exeggerating like hell.

Christ on a bike.

Judging by the reaction of some, you would think that this was a licensed videogame based on I Spit On Your Grave or something.

Honestly.

Even just having a discussion about this shows how limited creators and audience are. Rape scene in The Sopranos? No problem, rape scene in Sons of Anarchy following a long arching storyline? No problem!

Rape in Tomb Raider? No fucking way!

Why? The only problem I would have with it is if it was executed badly, which it probably would be considering what passes for writing in a video game nowadays.

Just my 2 cents.

@12

Totally agree. Lets pretend this shit does not happen and let me sit in my room playing a game where I murder 1000+ baddies because I comfortable with that. Rape…. No, no i’m not comfortable with that reality yet.

Thats what most of these commenters in here are basically sounding like.

I like to think that “games” can say more then just COD etc. How much points or headshots you get is becoming….. I cant even find a word to describe it. Someone help me out.,….

Also http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290673/..

@18: “nowadays?”

If it is treated correctly and with respect I don’t see the problem with it. Especially if, like #5 says, it adds to the story and character development. It’s a mature situation to deal with in the sense that it is something quite horrific but we have seen it in lots of other media and I don’t see why we can’t give developers the credit to actually create something serious like this.

Some reactions make me really think that it’s not the devs that hold games back from becoming more mature but the gamers themselves. If you can’t deal with real life situations happening in games then do not ever ask for more realism or maturity.

@18, +1 fella. Great examples used there, especially SoA as I’m a fan. And that storyline was exceptional in building the character and others around her.

@16

Exactly. I think this and the saints trailer argument is blown waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out!

@22: You’re right. Since the beginning of time. But well I think there really are some exceptions, I just can’t think of one right now.

@23: maturity for a lot of people means more blood, gore, intestines, headshots and so on.

Blowing npc brains out with shotgun has become stale since it has been done first back in 1993. Time to move it up a notch. It’s either this, or I’m going to be collecting yet another 7 pieces of a broken amulet and saving the game world I don’t give a fuck about. I mean, if a villain rapes me, I might just try to finish the game.
I’m sure feminists will start shrieking, but as a male or as they call us, potential rapist, I am willing to give this a shot.

@26

I fucking love you man.. couldnt of said it better.

There is far more to this than…

Why am I wasting my breath..?

There is far more to this than the fact that it’s an attempted rape / molestation scene. The problem is with how they’re inherently portraying Lara.

Yesterday’s news story discussing the developers’ portrayal of Lara had an uncomfortably sexist tone about it. There is nothing more condescending and degrading to the development of a female characters grown than the idea that it somehow has to stem from or be associated with male power trips. It’s lazy and ignorant.

Everything we’ve seen so far shows Lara being abused by men. She’s always the victim, always being afraid, and constantly in a state of pain or abuse. It’s lazy, and it’s a cop out. And when the developers talk about people only bonding with her through a desire to “protect her”, it’s just giving strength to more power fantasies.

We’re not seeing Lara through the eyes of a woman. We’re seeing Lara through the eyes of a man.

You tell ‘em KAP.

Marry in a dating sim, serve in military in an fps and care for your kids in a point & click adventure.

@28: Power Fantasy? Really? Wow, i think you’re way off on this one.

@28: Well said, but we already had the alternative. The problem is before she was a sexual object, now she still is, just in a different sense (and really, what else are power fantasies). But isn’t exactly this the goal of C.D., to empower her as the game plays out? So the actual problem is that we haven’t seen anything yet from a later stage in the game (which makes sense marketing wise).

“Live debate: should Tomb Raider include rape elements?”
Yes , and i want to see lara Take Her Clothes Off and have a good shower from all the dirt that cover her ( QTE shower ftw! )

it is just a video game , god damn it.

I don’t see what’s wrong with including it in a videogame. Rape is something which happens all the time. It’s harsh but it’s the truth. Do you expect some thugs who find a girl in the jungle to tend to her wounds? No? Me neither. That’s what they’ll try to do; rape her.

Also, it’s not like rape is something the entertainment industry has totally ignored. Various movies feature rape scenes, without being vulgar or offensive in the slightest.

If anything, Crystal Dynamics must be lauded for daring to include such a scene. Whether they can pull it off or not will depend on how they inact it, but I’ve no issues with such a scene being in the game.

As long as they don’t use it in a way which is offensive and can make it a progressive part of the story, I’ll have no issues with it.

I also find it very funny that gamers, and the media has no issues with games which feature people being amputated, harmless bystanders being run over for no reason, and so much more “sensitive” things, but find it offensive that a developer has decided to include a subject which is both gritty and real. If anything, it goes to show that they are willing to portray a woman as someone who’s able to do a lot more than being an object for half-grown men to fantasize over.

I for one, don’t find it offensive that a developer has decided not to portray a female character with a bosom bigger than the size of your underwear who is meant to make you fantasize about being in bed with her; and has actually tried to give out a more real picture of a woman and how she’ll react in such tough situations.

I’m looking forward to playing the Tomb Raider reboot, and it’s not because it features a rape scene. It’s because the direction CD’s chosen has really caught my attention and I want to see how good a job they can do in doing justice to it.

Oh, the game’s releasing in March, 2013. BUT NO, let’s not wait until we play the game to see what exactly happens and if this “attempt to rape” is justified or not. Let’s all come to the conclusion that it’s grossly wrong to try and include a storyline in a videogame which is even remotely similar to a real life scenario be…cau..see itz a VIDEOGAMES!! It’s not MEANT TO BE REAL, it’s NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE!

What I have to say is not PC, but neither is the topic we’re confronting.
It would be unrealistic for Lara to NEVER experience any scenarios where her foes try to use sex as a weapon, but whether it’s suitably handled in the game remains to be seen. That said, not everything that happens in real life should be in games. Many members of the gaming community lack the maturity to deal with this subject matter appropriately, if the comments I’ve read in stories all day are any indication. Still, there have been plenty of others voicing genuine concern, who see the potential for something sincerely disturbing… I’m with the latter crowd. I don’t think sexual predators deserve to walk the planet among us, whether they target men, women, children, animals or all of the above. If we are putting a video game heroine in a situation against a would-be sexual assailant, how it’s presented matters tremendously. That it happens, is not the main issue. As a female, I don’t think it’s fair to say we can sexually exploit females in games all the time, but not show the ugly side of things. It’s absurd to constantly depict sexually exaggerated depictions of women, and make them always ridiculously eager and randomly consenting. If you’re going to make a more realistic Lara, and she’s going to go up against scary bad guys, at a point it strains credibility that NONE of them would attempt to molest her in some manner. None of this is critical of Lara. It’s all a question of whether we, as gamers, can handle real bad guys.
I don’t want to see violence against women in the games I play, but if it is presented, handle it respectfully, appropriately and let me, as the player, respond to it with the gravity it deserves. I think we can do without games that depict anything graphic involving children, period. But in a video game, I think someone attempting to assault Lara should end up exactly the same as anyone who would attempt the same against Master Chief, or any others of the baddest male video game badasses you can imagine. What would Death do? How would Connor respond? If Lara gets to respond just as they would, if she comes out the victor, and evil gets punished in a way that satisfies the story and the righteously indignant player, then it’s subject matter that I think Lara is equipped to handle. At least bring the power of video gaming to bear, vigilantism is illegal in the real world, but in video games, villains can get immediate justice. The would-be victim generally has the most to lose, and therefore takes the threat most seriously.
I don’t mind a game asking me to kill some foes who really deserve to die. Most game villains commit the crime of looking tough, that’s it. They’re on the wrong side, that is sufficient. I’m up to the challenge of dealing with foes really depicted as evil on the inside. But I’d still prefer this to remain “the year of the bow” not the year of the rapist …honestly, that goes for every year.
A quality exception is okay here and there, but the majority of the gaming industry does not seem ready to handle this subject matter at all, not while so much exploitation is still glorified.
I’m hopeful, however, that if anyone is best equipped to tackle such a scenario, that a strong female icon could really do the job well.

Games are seen as for kids and no matter how you look at it, it will be some years yet before it’s really accepted as a genuine medium for the telling of mature stories…

So kudos to Crystal Dynamics for pushing the envelope on that one…

@26 & @27 Men and boys are victims of rape, too.

http://kotaku.com/5918193/tomb-raider-creators-are-no-longer-referring-to-games-attempted-rape-scene-as-an-attempted-rape-scene?utm_campaign=socialflow_kotaku_twitter&utm_source=kotaku_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

So, that’s that.

Jesus Christ, a studio tries to (tastefully) cover a real world scenario and it turns into a fucking international incident.

I’m all for rights and equality, but sitting around naval gazing at every opportunity isn’t worth anyone’s time.

@28 That I can understand, but that’s more of a professional gripe.

Violence against women can and often is used as a cheap emotional device in fiction, by writers who need to rely on shock effect, rather than the basic ability to reach their audience through good writing.

But isn’t that pretty much all there is to say about it?

You can’t exclude bad writers from using violence against women, any more than you can stop them from becoming writers in the first place.

Why not. I’m not against display of rape in games or movies as long as it has a strong narrative meaning and generally important for the plot.
I do not want rape for the sake of having rape though.

rape is not a crime, because if it is, gamers wouldn’t be using the word ‘rape’ 24/7 which is annoying. Especially on crappy Xbox Live!
even the movies use rape as a joke.

this is completely messed up:/

man that attempted rape scene will be intense man!
it will have QTE segment much like Heavy Rain.

prepare for controversy!

@39 Then this is just a case of lazy and bad writing.

Like you said, this is just cheap emotiopants rioting that really does nothing to add depth to her as a character. I’ve talked to quite a few women about this already, and all of them have agreed with the point so far, after seeing the context of it all.

@40 The problem is that media is completely chock full of countless examples of female characters whose *only* true character development has been through submission to or abuse from men. The comic book industry is especially bad at this. It’s not deep and its insulting to women, full stop.

@42 I don’t see why it has to be a women’s issue. It’s as much about how everyone percieves women, and writing, including men.

The only reason why damsel in distress works, is because women are still perceived as damsels.

I don’t personally have a problem with that, and I’m not sure a majority of women do either, but you can’t use the argument that “this makes some quantity of women uncomfortable, so it’s unacceptable”.

I just don’t see the cause for alarm. Of course now they’ve clarified it and used some different terminology, but even so, what’s wrong with a woman being called a cornered animal?

Why aren’t we offended when that terminology is used on military enemies, or just any sort of male? Even if some tend to focus on the word animal instead of the context, a cornered animal is in fact pretty damn dangerous.

It’s too semantic for my taste. Damsel in distress has been a theme of the medium ever since Donkey Kong or Mrs Pacman.

If portrayed correctly. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be ok to display. Although, it is almost unheard of to call rape tasteful. In a narrative there becomes a since of tasteful execution. No need to show more then what’s needed. Suggestive is almost always better then full on enactment.

Also, remember I say almost. If your trying to capture the intensity of the situation in an attempt to show a woman excelling from said circumstance? Then sometimes the more detail you can give to make the viewer feel as helpless as the victim is a good thing. It invokes a strong sense of determination in the viewer to want to see that person come out of it. And to also come out of it with them.

However, in this game suggestive is probably the best manner to go by to preserve whatever goal they are trying to achieve with this new Lara. Giving to much of her away can make the player look at her as a pointless object once again.

I say go for it if it gives me a Lara that not only becomes stronger in execution but in the players hands. It can become an strong bond between the player and the character.

I think the only “issue” here, is the reaction itself. I didn’t even imagine there would be a reaction, and in my perspective I question as to WHY such a reaction has occurred. I really do.

Utterly restricting its usage or promptly classifying it as surreptitious sexism, is to me an unassuming personification of insincerity and cowardice towards the crime (and victims of it.)

Cowardice partly being the cause of victim-blaming.

Rape is a catastrophic crime, with countless implications.

If the depiction is appropriate and realistic, then I believe It has its place, in pertinence to how those who subject it to jest can visualise a considerable representation of its realities.

Well, the debate should be good tomorrow. If you have any question you want asked during the chat, post them in here and I may include them.

I want you to ask “Do you think Irreversible should not have contained a rape scene?”

DO IT. I DOUBLE DARE YOU.

I personally feel like many of the scenes we’ve seen so far have unomfortable undertones to similar to the scene that’s been criticised recently. Do you feel like this is something that will be isolated to this instance, or do you worry, like me, that there is a broader problem with the game in how it’s choosing to portray Lara?

Two alleged ladies in the comments say, why not a rape scene? The rest? A bunch a whiney guys convinced this is some feminista plot against their genitalia.

(ok, so honourable exceptions to… Um… I’ve been drinking…. So um…. Ireland, DSB, youngzero?)

question about raping Tomb Raider=

“should Tomb Raider’s ‘rape’ scene be considered offensive more than Man Hunt or Grand Theft Auto’s Hot Coffee?”

“why should this be considered rape if there isn’t an actual rape involve? as the player would eventually escape from the man?”

“don’t you think it would be obvious if a dangerous man stuck in an island, and sees an helpless woman attempt to commit crime against her?”

you can pick any of the rape question.

I think it’s worth mentioning now, before we all get carried away:

There isn’t a rape scene in Tomb Raider. There was never a rape scene in Tomb Raider. There never will be a rape scene in Tomb Raider.

Ok, cool.

^ exactly!