Confirmed: GAME to not stock Mass Effect 3 for launch

I don’t know anything about UK tax rules, but Amazon does pay VAT, insurance and business rates. That’s a bit more than zero.

Most companies aren’t likely to pay more than they have to though. Call your local official.

@51 – Amazon don’t pay the standard British tax like GAME / Gamestation. They, like play, ship from Jersey, which although being part of the British Isle, doesn’t have the same taxes. It tends to be cheaper, something GAME / Gamestation never took advantage of, so they paid higher taxes all this time whereas its competitors paid far lower costs.

Although if I remember correctly, that loop hole will soon be plugged up. I’m pretty sure it’s one of the ‘many’ discussions of out shitty government’s agenda.

@52 I haven’t used Play for a while, but last time I did they definitely didn’t pay VAT tax.

I know that because I got slammed by customs and had to pay something like three times the worth of the game.

My packages are usually dispatched from Amazon in Germany even though I’m ordering through Amazon.co.uk.

I haven’t seen any from Jersey, but then I haven’t checked every single one.

If society can’t support those businesses then it means that either those businesses have to adapt, or the society needs to help them. You can’t exactly blame Amazon for being smart, and not going down with the likes of Game or Gamestation.

They do run two very different businesses though. It’s a bit hypocritial to go “Ooo, ain’t this a bargain” and then turn around and go “Y U NO PAY TAXES?!”. It’s one or the other.

@53 With Amazon where it comes from (and consequently how much tax they pay) largely depends on what item you’re buying. I don’t buy that many games from them (although no doubt will moving forward following this debacle) so I’m not sure about those, but I DO buy a lot of books and films from them. Most of the books come have come from the mainland, but all of the films (approximately 60 or so dvds/blurays over the last two years) have come from the isle of tax evasion that is Jersey. I would assume games are the same, but as I said, I have little experience with buying games from them.

For anyone who is unaware, books of any description are zero-rated in the UK, so there’s no benefit to shipping them from elsewhere. Zero-rated is not the same as tax free, it just means the taxable amount is indefinitely set to zero. http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000102&propertyType=document I believe this is also the case in the States, which can largely be credited for the success of Amazon, which started out as a book store after all. Selling tax-free products is always going to be a winner. Other zero-rated goods include medical supplies and food, so Amazon is no more guilty of tax evasion than Greggs or Boots.

However, you need to remember that purchasing tax (where it applies) is paid for by you, the buyer. So they’re actually doing you a favour selling from Jersey, unless customs decides to jerk you around at the post office when your package is delivered. (Which they are entirely entitled to do; it’s actually fairly shocking that it’s a rare inconvenience when importing goods rather than standard practice.)

It all boils down to the age old argument of people hating paying taxes, but then moaning when they don’t get anything. Nothing is free, and if you want stuff, you have to pay for it. People were delighted when VAT was cut back, and then infuriated when the government cutbacks followed. Well, guess what; you pay less, you get less in return.

@51 I said corporation taxes. It should be paying at least 20% of its profits in corporation tax every year, IN ADDITION to the business rates and insurances (though not sure how the latter is supposed to be of great benefit to UK Plc given that it’s paid to private insurance companies of which many are non-UK based). That’s like saying you refuse to pay council tax because you paid your income tax: er, you’re supposed to pay both.

And 99.9999% of the VAT paid from Amazon business transactions is paid by the person buying products from them! It is a consumption tax rated on purchasers, not sellers, so the only time Amazon UK pays VAT is when it itself buys in goods or services (that is, if it hasn’t found a way to exempt itself from that also). The disgraceful VAT loophole (soon to be closed) allowed them to drop prices even further on certain products up to a certain amount, thus harming bricks ‘n’ mortar even more and multiplying their tax-free profits.

I don’t need to call my local official because I know what I’m talking about.

“You can’t exactly blame Amazon for being smart, and not going down with the likes of Game or Gamestation.”

I can and I will, just like UK taxpayers are baying for bankers’ blood for doing the same thing. I also blame consumers for being hypocrites. Industrial scale tax avoidance from corporate giants which kills off smaller competition and destroys employment and rips off the Exchequer is okay so long as it helps you get cheap games and books.

@54 This post is almost too muddled to understand let alone argue against. I’ll have a try on one point:

“Other zero-rated goods include medical supplies and food, so Amazon is no more guilty of tax evasion than Greggs or Boots.”

Totally wrong. You are confusing VAT with Corporation Tax, two completely different issues. Amazon avoids the latter on which it should be charged at least 20% on every pound of profit, and it is irrelevant for Amazon if a product is rated for VAT or not because it is YOU who pays that tax, not them! The VAT loophole let them sell DVDs, CDs and other VAT rated products for much less than the high street (which have to charge you VAT), which helped increase their profits even further … on which they pay not a penny in corporation tax.

Remember this: your local independent games retailer – should you have one (unlikely) – could not take advantage of the VAT loophole and therefore had to charge you 17.5% (now 20%) in tax which Amazon didn’t, and if it made any profit at all in a financial year it paid more corporation taxes than the comparative behemoth that is Amazon UK who do several £billions in trade a year and many hundreds of millions in profits. So who deserves some sympathy and support?

@56 Neither. Neither deserve sympathy. They’re two entirely different business models with different pros and different cons, not charities that people should give to out of the goodness of their hearts. One of them turns a bigger profit and the other pays more back into the system, but ultimately, does that matter? Sorry if it sounds cold, but customers do not owe it to businesses to keep them afloat; businesses owe it to customers to provide a mutually beneficial service.

Certainly the brick and mortar store is “better” for our economy as a whole, as it gives the most back into the system, but that just doesn’t matter to the average consumer. All they want is the best deal. It stinks, it screws up the bigger picture, but ultimately that’s all they want. And that’s neither GAME’s nor Amazon’s fault. These are businesses, not moral guardians of our national financial wellbeing.

“Other zero-rated goods include medical supplies and food, so Amazon is no more guilty of tax evasion than Greggs or Boots.”

As it happens, Boots was bought by a private equity firm which moved it to Switzerland for tax purposes (yes, Boots is now Swiss), and it too avoids UK corporation taxes on billions in trade over here (again, absolutely nothing to do with whether or not its products are rated for VAT – which most in fact are). Greggs as far as I am aware is not a corporate tax avoider.

Granted Boots was a bad example, as they stopped being just a pharmacy ages ago and now sell pretty much anything. It’s practically Argos in there these days. Lloyds, then? A pharmacy, was my point.

“They’re two entirely different business models with different pros and different cons, not charities that people should give to out of the goodness of their hearts. ”

Who said they deserve charity? Why didn’t you see fit to call for a level regulatory and taxation playing field?

And you don’t seem bothered by the hypocrisy of people baying for bankers blood while supporting a massive tax avoider when it suits them personally (and in doing so contribute to our current economic and employment malaise).

Various estimates put Amazon UK’s tax avoidance since 2007 at over £3 billion.

@59 Lloyds still doesn’t work. Amazon avoids tax because it funnels every penny of its UK profits through a tax haven. VAT is charged to the purchaser, not the seller. So saying a pharmacy selling VAT free products is the same thing as Amazon exporting its millions in brown paper bags makes about as much sense as saying it’s getting late because it’s red.

@60 Don’t assume so much; I’m plenty bothered by it. I just don’t think it’s going to change. Everyone is in it for themselves, and just wants the best deal, and doesn’t give a damn about the long term consequences, and that attitude is (in my opinion) largely why we’re in the mess we’re in now in this country. The average consumer simply does not care about the bigger picture, and it’s appalling, but it’s just the nature of the beast; people are selfish and only want to benefit themselves as conveniently as possible, which should not be news to anyone. I thought I made that clear in the second paragraph of 57; if not, apologies, because it certainly does bother me, but equally, I’m under no delusion that pointing out that people are hypocrites is going to solve the situation. People will always shop where it is most convenient for them, be it because it’s online, it’s cheaper, or whatever their reasons are. They really do not care about which vendor is less scrupulous and which benefits our economy; unfortunately, that’s just the way people are, like it or not.

If it makes me a hypocrite for wanting to play Mass Effect 3 and turning to Amazon where GAME have failed me, so be it. I tried to buy it from the brick and mortar, and look where that got me.

“Why didn’t you see fit to call for a level regulatory and taxation playing field?”

Because this is a games news site and right now my biggest concern relating to this site is playing games, not saving our economy. I worry about putting my money in the right places elsewhere; all I care about here is playing Mass Effect 3. While I respect your determination in exposing Amazon as the evil opportunists that they apparently are, this is not the venue for revolutionizing consumer habits, dispensing corporate justice, or shaking the very foundations of taxation inequality. Your crusade may well be a noble cause, but a site where gamers are typically more concerned with which game has the best lens flares or how wobbly Bobby Kotick’s jowls are these days isn’t where you’re going to win your war on Amazon. But thanks for the lecture, all the same, and best of luck in sorting the world out.