John Carmack: Full RAGE 360 install to weigh in at 22Gb

So it’s impossible to play from disc? Amazed Microsoft let that by, to be honest.

I think L.A. Noire was 24 GB, so it´s okay for me ^^

Incidentally, 22gb sounds like three discs, not two.

yep, it’ll be 3 discs for xbox.

@1
It doesn’t require the install but it’s strongly recommended for best performance.

@3

I wouldn’t have said it was impossible to play from disc – more like a pain in the crackhole to be honest.

The 22GB figure when taken alongside the three-discs (one is for multiplayer, the other two for the single-player) that the game is shipping on indicates to me at least, that those nerdy techies over at ID are getting funky with some serious compression tech

So something doesn’t make sense.

If it’s possible to play from disc then the 360′s own ‘install’ functionality should allow you to install the discs one at a time, which reduces the on-HDD size and removes the up-front mega-install, and invalidates the ‘no partial install’ comment.

If it’s not that and it is actually a ‘proper’ install, then it’d be impossible to play it from disc, surely?

If it’s 22 GB on 360…

then how much on the PC? 30+ ?
What can you expect from a game that have megatextures?

@blerk, are you from some “Noob Island”? It’s a huge game. 360 dvd drive speed is not enough for this so install is required.

would imagine it will be either install or not rather than full or partial in any case there are a fair few machines around still with 20GB HHD’s around and of course the 4GB “s” models. as i remeber reach was patched fairly quickly to work on those

In his keynote he said that RAGE is over a TERABYTE when everything is uncompressed!

@7, So where would that leave the PS3 version with its even-slower drive?

It’s not about speed, it’s about what Microsoft have allowed in the past. There have been a very small handful of games which have required a hard drive, most of which were very early in the 360′s life. If it turns out that this can’t be played from disc that’s a very significant policy shift from Microsoft themselves.

@7

Don’t insult Blerk Erth, he was just debating the ‘partial install’ wording.

And let’s be honest here, anybody who in their heart of hearts fully believes that ID and by proxy, their money grabbing parent company Bethesda, would not want the game to reach the largest audience possible needs to be put in a shit-filled metal box and fired into the sun.

They won’t make an install for this game mandatory. Period. Sure, you’ll suffer in comparison to the other folks who can do the mega-install, but it won’t be something that prevents you from just loading up the damn thing and playing it regular like.

well, most people will have 250gb hard drives by now, so this really isnt a problem. or am i missing something?
people without a hard drive are impaired in every game, so thats nothing new…

@10 The game can be played off disk, however installing the game to the 360′s HDD should lead to fewer instances where there’s notable texture draw-in; the game’s constantly streaming data due to the whole megatexture aspect, and a hard drive has better access times than a DVD.

Naturally you don’t have to install all the disks if you aren’t up to that part of the game, either. When Carmack references the lack of a “partial install” he’s talking about the method they’re using on the PS3, where some amount of data will be installed to the HDD with the game streaming the rest off disk. Similarly they can use the PS3′s hard drive to temporarily cache data as they can be sure everyone has the hardware.

That’s not to say it’ll necessarily lead to better streaming performance than an installed 360 version — that really depends on the specifics of their implementation — but it will mean a smaller install, unless you intend to forego installing on the 360 altogether; I wouldn’t recommend it.

@13

Yes! Precisely!

So I can assume a similar mega-install for the ps3? That’s gonna sting if your running a old 40-80 gb fatty o_O

Can we expect the same from Skyrim?

That’s much clearer now, Aimless – good show.

Now i have quite a conumdrum with this issue, basecally my 120 gb ps3 is getting closer to 111 gb, and my 360 has almost 69 gb free space, but i dont want to put 22 gb on it only for this, what to do??, arghhhhhhhh

Wait and see which version is ‘best’? Or if it’s any good, even.

TWENTY TWO GIGS!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!

#19

I’d call it “content” and not outrage.

@15 By the sounds of it the install will be as big as id can get away with. Probably somewhere in the 4-8GB range.

@17 You could always buy a 500GB HDD for your PS3; it’ll run you about £50, less if you shop around. I imagine there’s a decent wedge of stuff you could delete off your current drive, though. And you wouldn’t need to do a full-fat install on 360, unless you were jumping back and forth between the first and second halves of the game for some reason.

I believe that the PS3 disk drive reads blu rays faster than the 360 reads dual layer DVDs. Curious to know how fast the PS3 reads dual layer DVDs & if it could have been a viable alternative to single layer blu rays for smaller games.

Dat’sa spicy meataball!

WO! That is one big game.

“On the 360 we don’t have a partial install option; it’s all or nothing, which is kind of unfortunate,”

Unfortunate, and also not true. L.A. Noire allows you to individually install and uninstall each disk.

@21 Well isn’t Rage open world? What If you need to change disc’s to travel to end of the map to another? Unless you install of course… Face it your just better off installing this, sounds like a bit of a beast o_O

I’m fine with my 60GB HDD and I wouldn’t have any problems installing it. But I have problems making me buy it, because it looks boring :F

in b4 broken/overheated consoles by the game being run from the disc.

@26 LA Noire was open world, not once did I have to change my disc because I wanted to go to the other side of the map.

I’m still curious to see, if they are really implemented 60 frames per second for PS3 and 360 (if i’m not mistaken… Someone said about it). If i remember, Xbox 360 when tried to run RAGE… suddenly it crashed. It was last year presentation.
My PS3? Oh jesus… I remember playing Heavy Rain on my PS3… it barely runs 30 frames per second and i had 2 system shut downs.

anyway, thank god that i’m going to play this on PC. At least there won’t be mambo jambo about it and i really hope that ID will make a system update for ULTRA pack which Carmack promised. Textures are scaled down because of the consoles and it’s very sad. very, very sad to see a developer that pushed the PC hardware to it’s limits.

I wish that ID software next time will develop DOOM 4 specifically for PC and port it to consoles because… I hate it when ID develop for each console and PC… Basically PC recieves a huge amount of work and optimizations because consoles can’t do that… or that… or this. So you get a 50% cut content.

@Stolenglory, “Don’t insult Blerk Erth”

No, i don’t insult Blerk. He is a good guy, i’m just joking and he know it.

@CJ,
“I believe that the PS3 disk drive reads blu rays faster than the 360 reads dual layer DVDs.”

Playstation fanboy believes again. Make. Believe. Sony.

Ahaha… Jesus christ *washing his hands from this filth*. You crack me up CJ, your fanboyism sometimes even worse than TEA’s. He just saying that “because of the games blah blah blah”.

for your information, blu ray and DVD driver on the PS3 is much slower than on the 360.
Blu-ray – 2x, DVD – 8x on the PS3.
DVD – 12x DVD with nice (65.6–132 Mbit/s) – XBOX 360.

Keep dreaming Sony fanboy. I hope that Kaz Hirai is not your GF… XD

arcade owner r fuqed

@Erth
dont act like this. Or should I find your gametrailers “xbox360 vs. ps3″ article again?

@30, Clearly you’re unaware of the slow down on dual layer disks, the rest of your comment aimed at me is just pointless trolling.

@31: You mean this one: http://www.gametrailers.com/users/Erthazus/gamepad/ ?

@32: Best just to ignore his stupid comments all together, i mean he actually just said that the Blu-Ray Player on the 360 is faster than on PS3.

I don’t even think he’s a PC Fanboy anymore, i actually think he’s a fanboy of stupidity, arrogance and ignorance.

@31, so how i act here? Did i said something about Xbox 360 vs PS3? I just speculate on the HDD space capacity and how it will work.
Also, that article is fantastic.

@CJ, it’s you who don’t know about Dual Layer.

The Blu-ray drive itself isn’t faster, there is just more data in BD disk to read.

@34, Wasn’t talking about the drive being faster, I was talking about read speeds.

As far as I know there are still some 20GB PS3s out in the wild, so 22GB is surely off the table, as is (presumably) 20 or 19, or anywhere near that theoretical limit of just under 20, considering downloads and patches and whatnot.

Thank god I’m getting it for PC, my xbox HDD is only 20gb, lol. If only I could replace it with a normal HDD instead of a “MS certified, marked up 150% for no good god damn reason HDD” Serves me right for being a loyal early adopter, won’t make that mistake again.

@34 Christopher Jack is referring to the differences between Constant Angular Velocity (DVD) and Constant Linear Velocity (Blu-ray).

When reading contiguous data the PS3 theoretically has an advantage, however the 360′s DVD drive has better seek speeds which tends to be better when it comes to games as a lot of the time they aren’t accessing data in a linear fashion.

The actual structure of data on the disk is a large factor in whether the PS3′s disk drive is an impediment or an advantage, but that’s an area of optimisation that tends to get overlooked or simply isn’t deemed worthwhile, especially when dealing with multi-format games.

@37, You can, since that’s essentially what they use in an ugly grey casing. But it requires hacking-& you wonder why some people are dedicated to the modding community. There’s no reason why MS hands us a 200% mark up, they’re making chumps out of us.

This game us a definite pass for me (at least at launch). It just doesn’t excite me at all. The videos really don’t impress me at all.

For the fanboys arguing about which disc drive is faster, A)who gives a shit. B)there are two factors at play with physical media, disc speed(rpm’s, X2, X4, X8, etc) and data density. Blu-ray has a much, much higher data density than the dvd based xbox format this means that if speed is equal blu-ray is faster. 360 reads at 12X(2,400–6,000RPM’s) and the PS3 does only read at 2X(400-1,000RPM’s) which would put the xbox ahead except for the fact that the Xbox drive is a “constant angular velocity” which means it only runs at one speed so the outside of the disc can be read at 120 some Mbps(360discs are not optimized well and the very outside, fastest edge is unusable) but the closer you get to the middle the slower the data reads will get, down to around 44 Mbps in the very center, The PS3 has a variable velocity drive which will speed up as you get closer to the inside maintaining the desired read speed of a constant 72Mbps. This brings the “average” read speeds of both devices so close together as to be fundamentally indistinguishable from one another so again I say, who gives a shit? The HDD on a PC blows them both out of existence.

@41

Definitely A)

@41, You can install a 7200rpm HDD to the PS3 too (& the 360 as well but via hack). A solid state drive is really the only thing to beat that as far as I know.

@22 & @32, no that’s a myth, one which is opposite to what the game developers say. The DVD drive in the 360 is faster than the Blu-ray drive in the PS3 (that’s why many PS3 games use the option of a compulsory HDD install to improve load times).

It’s true DVD reads dual layer discs slower than single layer discs, and it’s a fact that all 360 games come on dual layer discs, but 360′s DVD drives are “12x dual layer” (see the specs), not 12x as rated on PCs, which would be for single layer discs. As a result, 360′s DVD drives are rated as 16x when used as PC drives, which is also confirmed when searching the internet for replacement drives (eg. google: ‘xbox 360 ms28 16x’).

Therefore for DVD, that’s 12x dual layer for 360 vs 8x for PS3′s Blu-ray drive (not sure if that’s 8x SL or DL, I suspect it’s the former).

DVDs are also fastest on the outer track and slowest on the inner track, where DVD on the 360 offers about 16MBps on the outer track and 8MBps on the inner track. Blu-ray on the PS3 is a constant 9MBps throughout the disc. Hence as with previous gens, devs will organise the disc so that data they need to read fastest is on the outermost part of the disc, with the innermost areas reserved for data where speed isn’t important, such as music, voice, menus etc.

Therefore on average, 360′s DVD drive is about 12MBps, or about 1/3rd faster than PS3′s Blu-ray drive (and more if the data is organised efficiently), the downside is that the DVDs are spun significantly faster than Blu-ray discs, resulting in a lot more noise and the possibility of scratches.

@44 Xbox is probably slightly faster on average but I doubt it’s noticeable in any way, though I wonder if there is just less information being loaded for xbox games than for PS3 games? I suppose none of us are elecrical engineers/game developers so who knows for sure, the fact that neither console is beating the other over the head with it’s “superior load times” tells me that they are close enough not to matter.

edit: I just realized you were using Megabytes per second and I was using Megabits per second, sooooo I’ll just take out this shit here about you being wrong, lol, in fact you are absolutely right.

Ooh tech spec arguments! *FAP FAP FAP*

And whats the big deal about the gamesize? I wouldn’t mind the install, if the game is any good. Btw: The bunch of nextgen consoles should play in the same league with more detailed textures as a standard……..thinking of that, which kind of discformat will the nextgen be?

Everything old will become new again, in 2007 Bethesda’s Todd Howard told EGM that “Drive speed matters more to me [than capacity], and Blu-ray is slower,” straight from the developers mouth, I guess the 360 drive is quicker.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/17/ps3s-blu-ray-drive-speed-could-be-reason-for-oblivion-delay/

@47, Who knows, right? I really hope it’s MiniDisc though… they were cool, right? Right? o.O

All your HDD are belong to us.

Really though, for that ammount of space, you can install both Borderlands and Fallout 3. Blatant trolling? Yes I do.

@46 U-seddit.