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Hotz on South American “vacation,” lawyer fights back

Thursday, 24th March 2011 04:16 GMT By Brenna Hillier

George “GeoHot” Hotz has confirmed that he’s in South America, but only on a holiday paid for last November, while his attorney has hit back at Sony allegations of the hacker refusing to hand over hardware related to PS3 hacking.

Sony yesterday accused Hotz, who is being sued regarding the publication of PS3′s root key in January, of failing to hand over hard drives relating to his hacking activity and travelling to South America as an “excuse”.

Speaking on his blog, Hotz said: “Factually, it’s true I’m in South America, on a vacation I’ve had planned and paid for since November. I mean, it is Spring break; hacking isn’t my life. Rest assured that not a dime of legal defense money would ever go toward something like this.

“And of course Townsend [Sony's law firm in the case - Ed] loves the idea of painting me as an international fugitive. I have been in contact with my lawyers almost every day; I would not let the case suffer. That said, I also won’t let this ridiculous lawsuit run my life either. Then the fearmongerers win.”

“Factually, it’s true I’m in South America – on a vacation I’ve had planned and paid for since November.”

Hotz’s attorney, Stewart Kellar, added that Hotz has, in fact, forked over his gear, and did not go on the lam with PayPal donations towards his legal costs.

The lawyer told IGN that Sony’s claims that Hotz “deliberately removed integral components of his impounded hard drives” are a misunderstanding.

“The ‘integral components’ SCEA is talking about are stock controller cards, not the hard drives themselves,” he said.

The neutral party who received the hard drives from GeoHot reportedly had to explain to Sony representatives what hard drive controller cards do.

“Those controller cards have since been provided to the neutral so the point is moot,” he added.

Controller cards of a compatible model could have been substituted in place of the now-supplied originals.

Kellar staunchly protested rumours that GeoHot had funded a trip to South America with Paypal donations intended for his legal costs.

“As for any question as to whether Mr. Hotz has used donation money to take a trip to South America, that’s pretty silly,” he said.

“Litigating against a massive company like Sony, who is represented by five attorneys, is very costly for a 21-year-old. The donation money George has received is being used exclusively for his legal defense. If there are any funds left after the lawsuit, George is planning to donate the money to the [Electronic Frontier Foundation].”

The attorney added: “You can never take a vacation from a lawsuit. Mr. Hotz has had to make himself available 24/7 for this litigation, which has been quite demanding on him.

“You have to remember that Mr. Hotz didn’t choose to fight this battle, but now that he has been sued, he has put his heart into fighting this case that has enormous implications for consumers worldwide.”

Sony is suing GeoHot and other hackers over the publication of the PlayStation 3′s root key, allowing custom firmwares which support illegal backups of games.

Thanks, Kotaku.

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88 Comments

  1. Toastrules

    Who vacations…. to South America?? I mean, about 90% of trips going there are to in order to flee countries

    #1 4 years ago
  2. DeathJynx

    Tons of people vacation in south america. It is a little early in the game to be accusing anyone of fleeing the country. He has nothing to flee from yet… anyway. Maybe someone should just assassinate him so we no longer have to read about this crap.

    #2 4 years ago
  3. Zurtech

    “You have to remember that Mr. Hotz didn’t choose to fight this battle.”

    Nah, but he did choose to hack the PS3, then he did choose to post the root key on the internet and he did choose to break the PS3 end user agreement.

    #3 4 years ago
  4. Kerplunk

    @3 Agreed. There’s a persistent suggestion that GeoHot is somehow unaware of how all of this started and how he’s somehow not responsible for his own actions.

    #4 4 years ago
  5. RockTwist

    Maybe it’s like involuntary bowel movements but with hacking.

    #5 4 years ago
  6. xino

    it’s such a shame how Sony are messing around with the courts head into making Hotz provide stuff that is not possible, such as retrieving the release code from the internet back:/

    I really hope Sony loses this court!

    they are doing all in their power to make Hotz lose the court case, meaning going through illegal extreme length!

    And the most interesting part is, the hacked code…as it impact the ps3 game sales?????

    it’s just ridiculous!

    only 5% out of 100% would pirate games. Real piracy exist with pc gamers!

    #6 4 years ago
  7. Crysis

    @6

    5% of 1billion is still 50million, not that those are the real figures but acting like 5% is nothing is so naive.

    #7 4 years ago
  8. Zana

    This guy is pathetic.

    #8 4 years ago
  9. Rosseu

    Sony is a big bully anyway. Hope sony loses this so we get more control on their console.

    #9 4 years ago
  10. oreogod

    Who cares, if he loses, this will probably go the way of the iphone if the supreme court gets involved.

    #10 4 years ago
  11. NeoSquall

    @2 Give me five million euros and I’ll travel to South America to find and terminate his life.

    j/k

    #11 4 years ago
  12. Alakratt

    I was actually cheering for this little fuck! I don’t know if he really is on vacation, or if he used donation money for his little runway trip. But the problem here is it doesn’t look good at all. He should have thought what people would think (especially those supporting him) when they saw the pic he took from his vacation. He’s there chillaxing with an LG shirt (yeah…) AND apparently a diamond/platinum/i dunno cross. We don’t know if that’s his or not, but it raises questions. Even if he was allowed to leave the country, still, he should’ve stayed, this doesn’t look like “he’s putting his heart in this case”! Also, why take those components from the HDDs? C’mon, he took them out on purpose! He knows he’s fucked! Who the hell goes on vacation while they’re is a case going on against them?! I invite/dare everyone to look at that photo (it’s everywhere on n4g) and tell me that this stupid fuck is taking this seriously! Geohot….or as his mom calls him, Georgie, may have had honest intentions, but his current actions make him look guilty.

    #12 4 years ago
  13. Ireland Michael

    So exactly what part of the EULA did Hotz break?

    #13 4 years ago
  14. Psychotext

    “Also, why take those components from the HDDs”

    Did you read the story? The “component” that was missing was a hard drive controller. If someone asked for my hard drives I wouldn’t provide the controller either… I’m not sure anyone would.

    Edit – Actually, scratch that, I’ve just read that he actually removed the onboard controller (i.e. the circuitry screwed into the hard drive itself), which yeah… pretty fucking stupid thing to do.

    #14 4 years ago
  15. Lounds

    he’s 21, if messing about with hardware is fun for the guy then it’s a hobby, but it doesn’t stop the fact that programers and Art designers spend months of work for it to be given away for free.
    If Sony was smart they’d get him to hack xbox live and shut it down.

    #15 4 years ago
  16. xino

    @crysis

    stfu and don’t reply to me son

    @12

    so because of this court case scenario, you expect him to dress like a homeless man?

    Do you know that there are many Sony slave and sony supporter media out there? And they’ve done nothing but bash Geohot and support Sony. Now you are falling for the trash allegation saying “he’s on vacation”.

    If people are not sony fanboys, they would defend him. Because a company as no right to selling a feature to you and later remove that feature you paid for! It is breach of terms and illegal!

    But someone hacking his own console he paid for which is rightfully his and he distributed how to hack is now doing something more illegal than Sony?

    Same media who praised him and made him famous for breaking the iphone since they all reported on him. Now all are against him.

    #16 4 years ago
  17. Kerplunk

    @13 Presumably this information is available to you by consulting the details of the lawsuit that Sony filed. I’m not sure why you’re asking people who won’t know the answer to your question when you could be asking people that do.

    @14 HDD controllers are typically a chip (or chips) embedded onto the circuitry of the HDD. So to provide an HDD without the HDD controller someone would have to forcibly remove it first. Sure, it’s possible to replace them if an HDD is provided without them – but that doesn’t stop the fact that forcibly removing them when instructed to provide your HDD is a dick move.

    #17 4 years ago
  18. Crysis

    @16, Grow up you child, if I annoy you that much, you could always y’know-ignore me, but no, that’s too simple for your childish mind to comprehend. Heck, I don’t even know why you hate, did me calling you a child really hurt you that much? What a softy, maybe if you didn’t swear & act like an elitist & a hypocrite so often I wouldn’t have called you one.

    Also you only vaguely understand what you’re arguing about, do some research & learn what you’re fighting about before becoming a blind extremist about it.

    #18 4 years ago
  19. OlderGamer

    I am thinking this could be one more reason to push forward with Cloud/Streaming game services.

    Lets say this does go the way of iPhone, and the courts rule that you do own the hardware you buy afterall. You can do whatever you like with it. Would seem like while Hotz didn’t directly lead to any actual damage to the PS3 platform software/hardware saleswise, that down the line someone could release publicly stuff that will impact Sonys direct line.

    Thats what Sony is affraid of.

    I feel that is why Sony is going bullistic over this. They are trying to paint Hotz(and its easy to do) evil and miliscious, then brand all hobby hackers the same, then display the “Need” for stricter controls(and pens) against hardware tampering.

    They are trying to make an example out of him, as I have said yesterday.

    I really feel that will be hard to convince the courts that consumers don’t own what they buy.

    Much of the user end agreements we have are out dated and wrong, imo. I fire up something I buy at the store and I can’t even use it w/o clicking “I agree”. There is no option for “I don’t agree”. And the fine print is often a link to another destination and/or several pages of eye straining fonts sizes.

    Just bare with me, lets say you buy a new game. Yoy get home, take the time to read that fine print, find you don’t agree, the store won’t take it back. Your stuck. You can’t read that EUA in the store, its on the game disc, in the game booklet, or a link to a website.

    You get your PS3 home, get it out of the box, and as your setting it up, you come across the EUA: “what do you mean I can’t use linix”?, you ponder. “I remember reading that I could”. “No I don’t agree to that!”

    Can you return the system to the store? Not where I live.

    All of the power and control rests with the coperations, and none of it with you. None.

    And other things, dumb things. I have a toaster, does that mean that I can’t cook Ego Waffles in it? My Microwave comes with preset buttons for several foods, but it doesn’t have a button for last nights leftovers, does that mean I shouldn’t be able to warm them up? Is my coat rack only for coats, what about hats?

    Here are a couple that hit closer to our video game home: Sony allows you to replace/modify the PS3s HDD space, how is modifying the OS any different? Because it is a PS3 gamepad, does that mean you can’t buy an adapter that allows it work on your xb360?

    For me this issue isn’t about some hot head punk kid(and yes from my perspective 22yr old is still a kid), this is about consumer rights. You buy it, you own it. Simple. Its an issue that will prolly get revisited several times going forward. And ultimatly the courts will have the last say.

    #19 4 years ago
  20. Psychotext

    @17: Yeah, I just read that he’d removed that bit. I’d assumed they were talking about a controller such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_array_controller

    #20 4 years ago
  21. Kerplunk

    @19: ” You buy it, you own it.”

    Agreed. However, it’s important to understand just WHAT it is you’re buying. It’s not always what the consumer assumes it is.

    #21 4 years ago
  22. Crysis

    @21, Agreed, there seems to be mass confusion between what you own when you buy something with software, not many people can tell the difference between what you actually own & what you’ve been granted a licensed to use.

    #22 4 years ago
  23. ManuOtaku

    #21 no, is pretty clear, sony stated that Other S will be fully supported for the entiry lifecicle of the PS3, so you own the ps3 to play games and to have other S, when sony did took it away, they deceive the consumers and pretty much steal from the consumers, because they do not compesate them for this. plain and simple wrong, what Geo did was foolish, because he did use his name, he should do it anonymously, very foolish and wrong too.

    #19 i agree with you very spot on comment, except for the “courts will have the last say” part, again who made the law (and those who paid the law), also made the loopholes and tricks in order to avoid it, so that is not an assuring thing, becuase in the end, most of the time, wins the one that owns most money.sad but true

    #23 4 years ago
  24. Ireland Michael

    @17 Because some people here are claiming that he apparently broke the end user license agreement.

    I’m asking them to explain to me how exactly, because I’m working on the realistic assumption that they don’t actually know.

    @22 There is no confusion here at all. When you own something, it is your property and you can do whatever the hell you want to it.

    The law only comes into question if you do something illegal, and even then it’s you that is held accountable, and the law is focused on you, not the object. The object is simply used as a point of evidence.

    #24 4 years ago
  25. Crysis

    @23, While it was a jerky move on Sony’s behalf, it’s because of hackers like GeoHot that they removed it & because it’s a service that they provide they are entitled to remove it, it happens everywhere for phones, to games, to even websites.

    #25 4 years ago
  26. Crysis

    @24.
    “If you accept this Agreement, you are subject to its terms and all other agreements that you have entered into in connection with Sony Online Services. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use Sony Online Services (i) in any way for any commercial purpose, (ii) in any way that violates the law or the community code of conduct, or (iii) in any way that harms or has the potential to harm SCEA…”
    ^That’s the PSN license agreement & he did accept one so i would assume that he’s technically liable.

    #26 4 years ago
  27. Ireland Michael

    @25 It’s not because of “hackers like Geohot” that the feature was removed. Hotz hacking has always shut out things that might allow piracy. His iOS rooting being a perfect example.

    @26 But he didn’t use Sony’s online services in that manner.

    #27 4 years ago
  28. Kerplunk

    @23 Your arguments are still insistent that someone can make a statement on a certain date and that it can never be updated – irrespective of any future developments. Such as someone misusing your functionality in order to compromise your multi-million dollar investment and entire product revenue stream. That’s both unrealistic and inconsistent with counter argument where a user might agree to a term of use on a Monday and then break those terms on a Tuesday. You simply can’t realistically say that one party must never change when you’re giving free reign to the other party to do whatever they like. It’s just not a proper argument in the slightest.

    @24 So when they reply will you accept that answer or argue it? If the latter does that mean you’re only asking a question in order to dispute it because you already know? If so – what constructive purpose does that serve?

    Let’s be honest here, in all this discussion there’s many folk acting as internet lawyers. Internet law isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

    @27 Hotz knew full well that pandora’s box he was opening. Since *his* actions, the amount of growth in piracy on the platform has far outstripped the growth of homebrew. If his arguments were genuine, why didn’t he just re-instate the OtherOS functionality and leave it at that?

    #28 4 years ago
  29. ManuOtaku

    #25, well i do agree, but it is still their fault they should foresee it in the first place, therefore at launch, the ps3 shouldnt had included this option at all, and thas a shame on them, because their are the ones who maded and sold the device, this should be tested to death prior launch window, is and unforgivable thing for a big corporation like sony; This in the end made look sony bad, i mean in the eye of some consumers.

    #29 4 years ago
  30. ManuOtaku

    #28, they are pretty consistent on the part that saids “sony stated that Other S will be fully supported for the entiry lifecicle of the PS3″, and yes it can be updated – irrespective of any future developments, like you stated, but updated and improve for the best and to add and/or to make better some aspects, not to take away a feature that the consumers paid for that, and that was included on the device and the price of said device, a one that the consumers pay full price, and they were not compensated by this, it is pretty much and act of steal if you ask me , which is wrong.

    I hope i explain myself correctly, because english is not my first language, and i see its hard to make myself understood.

    #30 4 years ago
  31. Kerplunk

    @27 If the excerpt in #26 is accurate then you should note the word “indirectly” in it. In relation to that, consider the flood of hacking and cheating in online games that has followed since this all started.

    @30 Sorry, I still don’t agree. You argument now comes across as “Yes, you can change things so long as I see a benefit but you’re not permitted to make a change to protect yourself it means that I don’t see a benefit”. Which still comes over as very one-sided.

    #31 4 years ago
  32. Patrick Garratt

    Updated.

    #32 4 years ago
  33. Freek

    Blamming the hacking community for piracy is like blamming Ford or Ferrari when you choose to break the speed limit in their cars.

    We as the consumer benifit from having our machines jail broken. We can choose what the device does. That can include fuctionality that greatly increases the machine, and unfortunatly that can also mean piracy.
    But it isn’t untill you make that choice that you break the law. And that’s on you not the hacking comunity.

    Sony would prefer to have total control and eliminate all posible uses they have not build themselfs but that doesn’t make them right or on the side of consumers.
    The iPhone jailbreakign has already provided a legal precedent: jailbreaking for purposes other then piracy is fine.

    #33 4 years ago
  34. Ireland Michael

    @28 By your logic, the man who discovered the telephone is responsible for every harassment and stalking that has every occurred on the internet.

    People are responsible only for themselves. It was the failoverflow group that were responsible for the hacks that allowed piracy. They are the ones who should be in court.

    #34 4 years ago
  35. Kerplunk

    @33 “Blamming the hacking community for piracy is like blamming Ford or Ferrari when you choose to break the speed limit in their cars.”

    Your driving conduct isn’t an agreement made with the manufacturer of the car you drive.

    @34 That’s not what I said. But don’t let that stop you arguing with it. :)

    And if people are responsible for themselves, then GeoHot needs to take responsibility for publishing information that was not his to publish. Especially if that information can be argued to be a protected business interest. So – we’re right back to square one.

    And yet nobody seems willing to find out why he did not see fit to reinstate the functionality that, as he claims, was the primary motive for his actions. I guess talk is cheap, huh?

    #35 4 years ago
  36. ManuOtaku

    #31 Sony would be protected if they foresaw this situation before hand in the first place, therefore at launch, the ps3 shouldnt had included this option at all, their are the ones who made and sold the device, thats why is one sided, iam the consumer, i should be protected for things like this, because this device should be tested to death prior launch window, is and unforgivable thing for a big corporation like sony, so the easiest way for them was f*** the consumers, and protect ourselfs, thats pretty much one sided too, why on earth they included it?, why they didnt put much grey matter on this?, they are a big corporation which bast resources, they are not kids, they dont make toys they make electronic devices, that can affect some things and people, if they do not test this, then is not a safe product, therefore should not be sold, because the consumers have rights too, and if this its saw like one sided, well the position that sony took was one sided also.

    #36 4 years ago
  37. Freek

    Fail overflow did no such thing, neither did Hotz.
    You can’t pirate games with just the root key. The key allows you to sign code. Wich means you have to program an aplication that allows you to run pirated games.
    Such a piece of software was never made by them. It’s questionable if such an app even exists today at all considering the security flaw has since been closed.

    #37 4 years ago
  38. Crysis

    @34 & 33, Well that’s why the PS3 is/was a closed system to prevent piracy, but by publishing the root key Hotz indirectly caused all of this damage to Sony in an incident that was easily avoidable.

    #38 4 years ago
  39. Alakratt

    Are people forgetting that he posted the freaking PS3 “master” key (or whatever it’s called) on his blog?! If he really was fighting for the “Other OS” thing then he would just put it back in (like someone else here already said, props to you man), but no, he didn’t. He just posted the master key up on the net so that anyyone could do anything to their PS3, yes, this includes PIRACY AND CHEATING. So don’t even say that he didn’t know what he was doing from the start OR that his intentions were good, because that’s just bullshit!

    @37

    Yeah, you can’t pirate games with the root key, BUT with it you can program apps to do so! So don’t go painting fail overflow or Hotz like saints!

    #39 4 years ago
  40. Crysis

    @39, His intentions were to program software onto the PS3 that could have easily been done onto any modern/recent PC, all of this game console hacking BS seems like a pointless gesture to me unless the end result is piracy which is unethical.

    #40 4 years ago
  41. ManuOtaku

    #39, yes is true, and i agree but is also true that you can install back other S too, and thats the reason why many consumers will took his side, because like i said in this comment section and previous posts, sony took this application without any compesantion whatsoever, a one they say it will be fully supported in all its lifetime cycle, and that was included in the cost of the device without any further compensations to the consumers who paid full price, therefore of course one can do bad things with this piracy and the likes, and maybe that was his primary intention, though no one can know for sure only him and God, but that doesnt mean the people that was affected by the took of other S should not stand by his side on this., becuase what sony did to them was just also wrong.

    #41 4 years ago
  42. Alakratt

    I just read this funny ass comment on his blog (well, part of it):

    “You have the brains of a genius but the class of a douche bag.”

    LMAO!!! Funny as helllll!!!!

    #42 4 years ago
  43. ManuOtaku

    #42 calling me names doesnt make your argument….ah more valid..

    #43 4 years ago
  44. Alakratt

    @ 43, dude, that wasn’t for you, that was for Geohot. And I took that from his blog.

    #44 4 years ago
  45. ManuOtaku

    #44, ah sorry mate, my mistake, 8D

    #45 4 years ago
  46. Alakratt

    @44 no worries dude!

    #46 4 years ago
  47. LOLshock94

    guy looks like a curly haired fuck

    #47 4 years ago
  48. Lounds

    @47 lol

    #48 4 years ago
  49. Dr.Ghettoblaster

    I say the guys fucked and guilty as hell.

    #49 4 years ago
  50. Freek

    Publishing the master key opens up the homebrew scene, wich is a good thing. Happend to the iPhone aswell, means you can now program what ever you want for the machine without having to go through Apple.
    Same would be true of the PS3.
    Who knows what interesting stuff would have made, like I’;ve posted in the past XMBC for modded Xboxes was exceptionally good.

    A good move. Piracy happens in all media on all consoles, it’s a sperate issue that should not prevent people from jailbreaking their systems. And should not be used as a convenient scapegoat.

    #50 4 years ago
  51. theevilaires

    sad to see people defending Hotz, but it should be to no one surprise here that the people who are prefer the xbox360 over the PS3. If you owned SONY Corp I wonder what you people would be doing to combat piracy on your product?

    #51 4 years ago
  52. Hunam

    Surprise surprise, TEA defending a company that is basically lying to people and making up stories to harm their opposition.

    #52 4 years ago
  53. OrbitMonkey

    Honestly its only a fucking select few who even give a shit about all this. The VAST majority of ps3 owners didn’t even notice the ios(?) being removed & probably think Hotz is a brand of chilli sauce.

    #53 4 years ago
  54. ManuOtaku

    #51 look like i said before on the previous comments on this post, but here it goes nontheless, the reason why many consumers will took his side, is because they can install back Other S, or anything they want for that matter, with what he did, because sony did took this application without any compesantion whatsoever, a one they say it will be fully supported in all its lifetime cycle, and that was included in the cost of the device without any further compensations to those said consumers who did paid full price, therefore of course one can do bad things with this piracy and the likes, and maybe that was his primary intention, though no one can know for sure only him and God, but that doesnt mean the people that was affected by the took of other S should not stand by his side on this., becuase what sony did to them was just also wrong, so i think is not that hard to understand why they took his side over sony.

    This Has nothing to do about brands, its more on consumers rights than anything else.

    #54 4 years ago
  55. lexph3re

    @manu they didn’t forcibly take anything away. The original ps3 models still can use os you just can’t update. You also can restore factory settings on the old consoles to get os back. So how did sony take it away from people? The only thing they really did was take it out of the slim series in which they informed people of that. And told the old model users if they want to keep os don’t update their firmware. Which goes with the terms of service.

    Hotz and the other hackers aren’t justified on what they did. Os is still there but people love to make it seem like its gone.ITS NOT! The reality is no one who really owns a ps3 used that feature just a very small select few. But, everyone wants to make it seem like they were effected by it being taken away. Hell my friend who bought a ps3 because of OS support never even used it. He just boughtit for the option. And, when they took it out he was like “eh, oh well”

    The non sence the majority of you guys come up with to defend this guy is amazing. Because you don’t even keep up with what’s been going on. In more then half of every ones post its ” I believe he did it for….” or ” sony did provoke them right?”. I love how people become passionate about he said she said but can’t actually take the time to research some things.

    #55 4 years ago
  56. Crysis

    Other OS was removed because Hotz was mucking around with the firmware & shit from there which provoked Sony to take action before thousands of hackers exploited Other OS.

    #56 4 years ago
  57. ManuOtaku

    #55, yes i agree, but then the console that was capable of playing games and running Other S, will lost one of them as soon as i run an updated, for instance in order play god of war III, therefore i cannot choose, i will end loosing one no matter how i choose,for me is like a bait and swich situation, again i can´t have the two together like the way they were advertised, and for which i did paid full price, the cost of running other S was included on that price, and for that i havent been compensated, therefore is pretty much an steel and a deceiving on sonys part.

    look for instance this advertise “www playstation com/ps3-openplatform/ There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3™ system to run the Linux operating system”,

    Look for me is about rights, consumers rights that since the 1980′s are been taking an step back, there were lawsuits about being able to use VCR’s to record things and, in general, the public won. No laws were enacted that made it illegal to connect two VCR’s together and start duplicating tapes.

    Back in the late 1990′s and early ’00′s, the Dreamcast was cracked wide open and people found all kinds of uses for it (many are still using the hardware today), no one went to jail, no huge lawsuits.

    Now, with the DMCA, all of the above are illegal. The only way you can make a backup copy of your DVD is with software that’s been outlawed.

    Want to hack your game system to play homebrew or use it as the brain for a smarthome? Sorry, can’t do it. DMCA, thank you very much.

    And the list goes on. But in the last 15 to 20 years the number of freedoms we’ve lost in relation to personal property are pretty staggering (black boxes in cars that record your speed, yup, those are in new cars and the cops have the authority to get the information). But because the lose has been gradual, few have complained.

    The question is, at what point do we stop and actually pay attention to what the hell is going on?

    Precedent is what will be set. And, once set, it’s a bear to reverse. If Sony gets a win here (and they very well might, even with the current DMCA exception making it legal to jailbreak an iOS device) then that win becomes a hammer that can be used by any company to beat a system modifier into submission.

    And like i said Before, the people that creates the law(and those who paid them), also makes the tricks and loopholes in order to avoid it, and get away with it.

    #57 4 years ago
  58. theevilaires

    Surprise Surprise Hunam the XBOT comments directly after mine waiting for his chance to strike and fail miserably every time. I told him that ass whooping I gave you yesterday wasn’t enough and now I’m $5 dollars richer :D

    #58 4 years ago
  59. Naaame

    Haha he’s running for the hills. He found it funny and acted all arrogant to start off with. Now he realises that he is in some serious trouble so he’s gone south of the border.

    Hope he gets whats coming to him! they should just employ him tbh.

    #59 4 years ago
  60. YoungZer0

    @52: Are you serious? Which company is not lying to people?

    #60 4 years ago
  61. Cygnar

    #57: No one will disagree that it sucks that Sony removed Other OS. But it is important to realize that this is not a decision Sony wanted to make, either. The company is run by people smart enough to know that removing any kind of functionality would result in serious backlash, and so it makes no sense for Sony to remove Other OS without a damned good reason.

    The story about Hotz threatening to hack the system through Linux explains this situation perfectly. Sony’s choice came down to upsetting some consumers by removing Other OS; or upsetting investors, intellectual property holders, and many others by allowing a hack to occur sooner and more easily. Sony had an EULA contract allowing it to remove Other OS, but it had no contract permitting it to allow its system, and other companies’ copyrighted material, to be compromised. Sony made the only choice it could make, when neither option was good.

    There is no denying that the result sucked. Nobody wanted it. Not Sony, not ordinary consumers, and not Hotz. But the threat of the system’s compromise made this choice necessary, in order to prevent or postpone the system’s compromise.

    As far as consumer rights go, do not sign contracts you don’t agree with. If you do, you are telling Sony it’s okay to engage in this conduct. You may think that it’s a “bait and switch” to present the contract after you buy the system, but there is no “switch.” The contracts are available online and you can read them without ever going to a store. They’re the same as the ones you get on the Playstation itself. No tricks. Moreover, if you buy the system, take it home, and then find you don’t agree with the contract, then do not use the system, and instead call the store or Sony so you can return it. Using the system signifies that you agree to the contract.

    Ultimately, if you want to protect your rights as a consumer, then assert your rights before you give them up in a contract. It’s that simple.

    Next, while you may not like the DMCA, there are good reasons for it to exist. If Sony didn’t have control over the use of the Playstation 3, it would have no guarantee that people would buy games for it (rather than, say, pirate them), and thus no guarantee that it would make back any of the money it loses by selling consoles below cost. If it did not have this sort of control, the Playstation 3 would have been priced at or above the supposed production price of $950 US per unit at launch. The $350 difference is the cost of consumer rights to “hack” the Playstation 3. If Sony had no control over its platform, it could not, and would not, price below cost, and all consumers would suffer as a result.

    There is nothing unique about Sony’s control over its software. If I buy a copy of Metallica’s Greatest Hits, I do not get to own the performances recorded on the disc, or the lyrics of the songs, etc etc; even though I paid for and own the disc. Similarly, having a device with PS3 firmware gives me no right to do whatever I please with that firmware, especially not when I have agreed to a contract specifically prohibiting it. And again, if you don’t agree with a contract, don’t sign it.

    No one, and I mean no one can stop you from making software for the Playstation 3, as long as you respect Sony’s copyright on its own software. That means that the proper way to develop software is to wipe Sony’s firmware from the system altogether, and then make your own. Copyright law prohibits modifying the firmware, but not making new software from scratch.

    Don’t like it? Write your representatives in Washington DC. Don’t live in the USA? Stop complaining about law that doesn’t apply to you.

    #61 4 years ago
  62. lexph3re

    @57 I only believe those who can prove beyond a resonible doubt that they were directly affected by os removal should be compensated. Every consumer didn’t even take advantage of it so why should they be compensated for something they didn’t use? If I buy a product at the store and I don’t use it for months I can’t just go take it back. And if they did take it they would credit it.

    The only real people affected were the ones whose systems were bricked when the os was removed. How many do that account for? A few hundred Maybe a few thousand? It definetly wasn’t in the 10k-million range. Then what is adequant compensation for one feature removed? 50 bucks? Its honestly some people just looking to either A. Get a large some for “pain and suffering” or b. Just trying to get a couple hundred bucks. Is it really worth it?

    Yes people need laws to protect them. But, is a company not also comprised of hard working people? People who become directly affected when the company has to cut people loose because they have to pay every cent+ some to every angry or manipulative customer?

    As for the dreamcast hacks. How could a dead company fight a hack? If sega had the backing and capability to track the hackers do you honestly believe they wouldn’t do it? The system didn’t suffer from heavy hacking until total support was lost. I remember the random guyat the local gamestop bringing his dreamcast up just to show he had a dvd player and hdd installed to his dreamcast. If that was widespread dreamcast would’ve been F*cked! No way they could control the entire online community. Hell pso is still supported on dreamcast by hackers.

    #62 4 years ago
  63. ManuOtaku

    #62 “I only believe those who can prove beyond a resonible doubt that they were directly affected by os removal should be compensated. Every consumer didn’t even take advantage of it so why should they be compensated for something they didn’t use? If I buy a product at the store and I don’t use it for months I can’t just go take it back. And if they did take it they would credit it.

    I dont agree, if my primary reason to own a phat ps3 instead a 360 or a wii, besides gaming of course, was the option of running other S,which came with it and advertised that will last the ps3 life cycle, and lets say for instance i didnt use it right away, i just want it to do it for back up purposes, and was took it away on the following updates, i cannot use it anymore, therefore is an application that was took away even if i didnt use it, thats bite and switch, again this application was priced on the total cost, so it doesnt matter if i used it or not, they downgraded my phat ps3, they didnt add a benefit for me the consumer, they took away a benefit and i didnt received a compensation. thats wrong, maybe you wont agree but it as wrong on so many levels.

    For the rest of your comment is your opinion, i dont share it but i respected.

    #63 4 years ago
  64. Kerplunk

    @61 Fantastic post, sir. A refreshing minty blast of common sense and understanding in the great public lavatory of the Internet!

    #64 4 years ago
  65. lexph3re

    That’s the thing manu everything anyone states on this is opinion. Except the dreamcast stuff that actually does and still takes place. But, at the end its all speculation because nothing happened yet. And that’s what sony is fighting hackers from pulling a dreamcast on ps3.

    As for os did you use it? No? Then what does it matter what intentions you might tell me you originally had was? You didn’t do therefore you weren’t affected. You and countless other people that might want to complain but if you still own the system from original intent you reap benefits that the slim series can’t. Even use!

    So os is only an excuse to people who over glorify the thing they didn’t even use.

    #65 4 years ago
  66. theevilaires

    #61 NAILED IT! Read that you fuck wad XBOT Hunam. That post was so well written that when Garratt does his annual fake awards show this year I will fight tooth and nail for you having best poster of the year sir. No more of blerks cheesy boring euro humor comments being ranked as meaningful by the kiddie XBOTS. #61 has the best post of the year so far.

    My favorite line: “Don’t live in the USA? Stop complaining about law that doesn’t apply to you”.

    The fucking cherry on the top sir! You made my day thank you :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wiYdUe36_Q&feature=related

    #66 4 years ago
  67. OwningXylophone

    For all the people wondering why he removed the HD controllers, I would guess it was a ‘pound of flesh, but not a drop of blood’ situation, which is really going to endear him to the courts…

    #67 4 years ago
  68. OwningXylophone

    “Don’t live in the USA? Stop complaining about law that doesn’t apply to you”

    I think it’s pretty fair to say that the outcome of this case will indirectly effect plenty of people in plenty of countries… Otherwise Sony will be facing a case like this in just about every country where the PS3 is on sale.

    #68 4 years ago
  69. theevilaires

    Geohot is a corrupt lying ass American
    He stole all that donation money from every man

    Now he’s posing as a South American
    run from whats right,run for your life!

    PEW! PEW! PEW!

    #69 4 years ago
  70. ManuOtaku

    #61 “No one will disagree that it sucks that Sony removed Other OS. But it is important to realize that this is not a decision Sony wanted to make, either”,
    yes it was a sony decision they put it on the console in the first place, so it had green light all over it, from different departments, even the investors, the right thing to do was made a reasearch prior to launch in order to see whats in and whats out, and do a pros and cons list not opt for the easiest option once the damage has done, thats on so many levels wrong, and more on a big corporation like sony.period

    “As far as consumer rights go, do not sign contracts you don’t agree with. If you do, you are telling Sony it’s okay to engage in this conduct. You may think that it’s a “bait and switch” to present the contract after you buy the system, but there is no “switch.” The contracts are available online and you can read them without ever going to a store. They’re the same as the ones you get on the Playstation itself. No tricks. Moreover, if you buy the system, take it home, and then find you don’t agree with the contract, then do not use the system, and instead call the store or Sony so you can return it. Using the system signifies that you agree to the contract”

    After months of use, thorn, and worn, do you think they will give my money back, because the took away didnt occur exactly the next day it happened many days before, after i use it a lot, at least here in my country i cannot do that, and i think a consumer cannot do that in the USA Neither.

    “Don’t like it? Write your representatives in Washington DC. Don’t live in the USA? Stop complaining about law that doesn’t apply to you”.

    Yes but this case is a precedent that will affect other laws in other countries, once is approved in one nation, other nations will follow suit, so i think it doesnt matter iam not from U.S.A, this case have globall implications, and in more electronic devices than just game consoles

    As for the rest is your opinon and i respect it but i dont agree with it. have a nice day

    #70 4 years ago
  71. Zurtech

    I’m a bit sleepy, so I’ll try not to babble too much, I just don’t get the whole argument about “it’s ok to hack it cos they took out the Other OS option”. I mean why would you want a different OS on a games console to start with? When I buy a console it’s for the exclusive games on that machine. I don’t go shopping for a new console and think “Hmmm, I want a Linux machine, I know I’ll go buy a games console, cos yeah, Linux is a gaming platform, oh wait, none of these machines have Linux installed on them, which one will let me.”
    Seriously though, don’t get me started on the whole “I want to back up my games” bollocks, everyone and their dog knows that’s nerd talk for “I r wanna copy games to play them on emulatorz lol”

    And then you wonder why features get taken out of consoles/games, cos little nerdy wankers with no common sense decide to hack stuff and crap it all up for everyone else.

    #71 4 years ago
  72. Hunam

    I suppose I should also stop making my opposition vocal to laws in countries where women are stoned to death for wanting a divorce from their shit bag husbands by that logic.

    #72 4 years ago
  73. Cygnar

    #70: Think about what you’re saying. Sony, for whatever reason, decided to trust its consumers enough to let them use the PS3 to run whatever OS, and whatever software they could get to run on the system. Now, if your reasoning follows, it seems that Sony should never have put the feature in the PS3 in the first place. Sony should never have risked giving its consumers any power to use another OS on the console. Sony should have never even taken the chance that some jackass with an illegal hobby would come and ruin things for everyone else.

    This is the lesson that companies are learning now. It’s a bad move to trust consumers with having any control over the platform. If you won’t always be able to do good for consumers, then don’t even try.

    As far as returns go, please re-read my post. You’ve accepted the EULA, and you’ve used your console. You can’t just decide now that you didn’t agree after all. In the U.S., contracts inside of boxed products make it so companies have to take the products back if consumers don’t agree to them. If they do agree to the contracts, then tough luck for them. Maybe they should act like they can read.

    Lastly, U.S. law doesn’t limit your rights. It doesn’t. Really. Your country’s laws are what you need to worry about, and if it really would be so terrible for companies have rights to control their copyrighted material, then you should talk to your lawmakers and tell them not to support a law like DMCA.

    The U.S. isn’t right about everything, and there are plenty of nations all over the place that disagree with it about all sorts of things. Their lawmakers have the opportunity to look at cases like this and figure out whether these laws are a good idea. But for now, the limits are on U.S. citizens’ rights, not yours. Turns out it’s less like getting battered to death with stones than you think. We have plenty of groups to advocate for us in lawmaking, and a court system to figure out the limits of the laws and fix them when they’re wrong. Even the Copyright Office, which doesn’t answer directly to voters, decided on its own to make phone jailbreaking legal. Any or all of these groups can and will spring into action if the law interferes too harshly with consumer interests. So will I. But I don’t see that here.

    Educated Americans (oxymoron, yes) know that rights are a two-way street. I have rights, but so does everyone else. Even corporations have rights, but they have responsibilities just as big as they are. Sony must use its rights in a responsible way, so that it doesn’t piss off its customers and lose business. It can’t always do that if it foolishly decides to trust its consumers further than it can sue them. But as for our rights, we’ve got some responsibilities of our own. For starters, if we want to keep our rights, we don’t sign them away.

    #73 4 years ago
  74. Ireland Michael

    lol @1 everyone ignoring TEA’s poss poor fanboy waffling.

    Using the term Xbot makes you sound like a 12 year old.

    Question: It wasn’t failoverflow who created the hacks that allowed piracy? My bad. Who were the original creators then?

    #74 4 years ago
  75. YoungZer0

    @73: You sound so reasonable. Make love to me.

    #75 4 years ago
  76. theevilaires

    LOL love how O’Connor trolls on a different account everyday and the first thing he has to say is about me….kid the cock you want to suck belongs to your tranny. Trust me no one ignores my post especially you fool.

    #76 4 years ago
  77. Ireland Michael

    @76 A different account every day? I’ve only ever had two accounts on here, and the only reason I ever had a second was because I lost access to the email address for the old one.

    Let’s be honest here, you’re easy to laugh at. At least I’m consistently capable of holding decent discourse with people on here. The same can sadly not be said for you and your mentally deficient cock waving.

    #77 4 years ago
  78. Dr.Ghettoblaster

    61′s post was good.

    72′s was even better.

    #78 4 years ago
  79. spiderLAW

    So, really, why is anybody defending hotz. He clearly doesnt care for any of you that are defending him (took people’s money to vacationa and buy new bling) and really only cares about self glorification. Let his ass fry and protect the innocent if you care so much.
    Really, hacking your own system to do what you want with it shouldnt be illegal. Pirating games is. Hacking the security of the entire system and then sharing the secrets with the world for the intention of hurting the console manufacturer should be illegal. – thats what Hotz did.
    Then he laughed about it and said “Neener Neener Neener, you can suck my Wiener” to Sony. Now, if somebody broke into your home and stole everything you owned and then later said “hahah, i jacked you fool” to your face, would you just simply reply “Thanks mate, im glad you stole my valuables that i worked hard for and proceeded to rub it in my face. My life is so much happier now…here, take my soul too”….i dont think so.

    Spelling is prolly all messed up and grammar too, but its my bed time and i just decided to type really fast without caring lol.

    #79 4 years ago
  80. lexph3re

    I love how you guys like to compare human rights to digital rights. That is so original.lol hey maybe you might wanna. Compare animal rights next to digital later. You know like how the extinct os is now being protected from the corporate bully known as Sony! Its comparable to the mutilation of the elephant for its ivory! >.> jeez people are dicks

    #80 4 years ago
  81. Kerplunk

    @75 HANDS OFF SISTER! I saw him/her* first!

    *Frankly, I don’t care which

    #81 4 years ago
  82. Gekidami

    @73
    Indeed. Worst part is that for the next set of consoles theres no way in hell they’ll be so open because of all of this.

    @79
    Yep. Its funny that some people want to make Hotz out as a great hero fighting for everyones rights, when really he’s just an attention whore who only cares about his own fame.

    #82 4 years ago
  83. OlderGamer

    @Cygnar

    As put together and sensible as your words sound, there are more then a few holes in there.

    But basicly it is not for you nor I to decide, its upto the courts. But your doing a great job clouding the waters. And the Sony Drones love ya for it.

    Once in awhile a case comes along that chalanges the way we think and changes the way things are done. The litigation surounding the PS3 may well do just that.

    Sony just lost in a class action. Likly there will be a series of suits. Of which the Hotz case is just one of. And we all should be watching these very carefully. For the rulings will be impacting all future hardware from all manufacters.

    It all simply boils down to rights. Ours as customers, as gamers, and as individuals. Or the rights of Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, or Apple to continue to step all over us.

    Kudos to you good sir for trying to shift the focus away from that. Well played. If I didn’t know any better I would say your on damage control, a PR guy, working for Sony.

    #83 4 years ago
  84. ManuOtaku

    #73, “Think about what you’re saying. Sony, for whatever reason, decided to trust its consumers enough to let them use the PS3 to run whatever OS, and whatever software they could get to run on the system. Now, if your reasoning follows, it seems that Sony should never have put the feature in the PS3 in the first place. Sony should never have risked giving its consumers any power to use another OS on the console. Sony should have never even taken the chance that some jackass with an “illegal hobby would come and ruin things for everyone else.

    This is the lesson that companies are learning now. It’s a bad move to trust consumers with having any control over the platform. If you won’t always be able to do good for consumers, then don’t even try”.

    If they made this for the greater good,or for our good as consumers as you did put it, to give us more power, why they didnt kept continuing doing so, i mean they can solve the problem without harming the consumer, find another way to keep the application , the way that was advertised for the whole lifecycle of the device, and to make more secure the system, but alas, no instead of acting with “good intentions”, they opted for the easiest way against cosumers, so thats kind of contradictory dont you think.

    “As far as returns go, please re-read my post. You’ve accepted the EULA, and you’ve used your console. You can’t just decide now that you didn’t agree after all. In the U.S., contracts inside of boxed products make it so companies have to take the products back if consumers don’t agree to them. If they do agree to the contracts, then tough luck for them. Maybe they should act like they can read”

    Again the part that did not accepted the terms and agreements that came with the purchase, was sony not the consumers. the act of GEO was retaliation, that also is wrong.

    “Educated Americans (oxymoron, yes) know that rights are a two-way street. I have rights, but so does everyone else. Even corporations have rights, but they have responsibilities just as big as they are. Sony must use its rights in a responsible way, so that it doesn’t piss off its customers and lose business. It can’t always do that if it foolishly decides to trust its consumers further than it can sue them. But as for our rights, we’ve got some responsibilities of our own. For starters, if we want to keep our rights, we don’t sign them away”.

    Sony did sign with me the purchaser of the PS3 , a term and condition , that will have for the entire life of the device other S, and they broke that agreement at the moment they took it away, without any compensation whatsoever and without my permision, lastly insulting me doenst make your points more valid.
    .

    #84 4 years ago
  85. Kerplunk

    @83 Reasoned statements are not propaganda – as much as you try to imply they are. People are not drones for using reason instead of emotion to present their views.

    #85 4 years ago
  86. OlderGamer

    @Kerplunk

    Nice try.

    But what may sound reasonable to one person is utter BS to someone else. Each territory has a different interpretation of rights and the laws surrounding them. That is one thing that makes this discussion tough in this site. So many folks from so many different places.

    At the crux of this is Sony claiming they can do whatever they want for whatever reasons they want. And the other side claiming that the EUA goes too far. Companies rights vs. consumers rights.

    That’s the challenge. The courts of each territory will ultimately decide.

    There are many cases where established laws have grown outdated and have been challenged and then amended. From conduct of biz to consumer protection.

    Sure people will have different povs.

    I am not for Sony in this one(wouldn’t be in favor of MS either if that were the case). I see this as a greedy move. A move to retain control. And one that steps on people’s rights. That’s my pov.

    Also the idea that someone can just not click agree is asinine. The person buys the thing, brings it home, unpacks it … what are the chances that said person isn’t interested in using it? Why do you figure the EUA are always tiny print? Always long? Always use collage level vocab? Always filled with confusing wording? And almost always displayed just before all you have to do is click to use the thing you bought, brought home, and unpacked?

    Its psychology. Designed for the average person to simply click past it. Tell me you read all the EUAs? For your Phone, websites, games, music, movies, marketplaces, etc etc? No one does. That’s why they do it in the fashion they do.

    If said consumer looking to buy the PS3 for use of the OS, was told before purchase that Sony CAN remove that feature would they still buy it? Prolly, because they would reason that if the feature was currently in there, Sony would intend for it be used. Sony wouldn’t intend to remove it.

    However if Sony told said consumer that they intended to remove the other OS to cut costs in a few months … would Sony still make a sale? No. And that is why people feel deceived.

    It isn’t because they deserve it for not reading the EUA. That is stupid.

    Let’s say said consumer did read the EUA, and decided that they didn’t want the thing. Where I live no store will accept it back. They will claim you used it(the PS3). You bought it, took it home, unboxed it, hooked it up, turned it on, set it up, then read something, and returned it to the store. That will fly like a lead balloon.

    Whatever your pov, there is an issue that goes beyond some mostly ignorant posters on a website. That’s why I say the courts will decide.

    As for Cygnar, sorry but yea, he sounds like a tool. Sony couldn’t have crafted a better statement themselves. Cygnar btw is(among other things) a name for a hacking program.

    #86 4 years ago
  87. ManuOtaku

    #86, man iam not that savy on english language or in anything for that matter,and sometimes i cannot put the correct words to transmit the idea i have in my mind, so thanks to put the words sometimes i cannot said, nice read,

    #87 4 years ago
  88. OlderGamer

    Its all good ManuOtaku.

    If I had to use another language besides my own I wouldn’t be able to say much at all. I am often impressed with you folks that post here from nonenglish speaking nations.

    #88 4 years ago

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