Zeschuk: JRPGs suffering “lack of evolution”

What a laugher. Bioware’s been making the same vacant-eyes-staring-past-you, crap-spoken-dialogue, poor-man’s-D&D game for the last 10 years.

I don’t particularly hate “the Bioware Game,” but those who say that Bioware is progressing the RPG genre are really no different from those who can claim not to notice the same story in 9/10ths of JRPGs. Of course, BioWare has the excuse of actually being the same company that makes all its games rather than an entire industry of supposed competitors, not to mention the detail that each version of their formula is financially successful.

Not to say the man’s wrong, he’s dead on, but I think the Japanese themselves are better messengers for this issue than a rival with its own problems.

Yay for Demon’s Souls. Mine should be here any day now.

JRPGs are in desperate need of modernisation for a Western audience, but ultimately they’re not really for ‘us’ and the Japanese audience that they’re intended for seem perfectly happy with them the way they are. Although they do seem a bit less happy to actually buy them of late.

Speaking as a jumbo JRPG fan, this generation has been very disappointing on the whole. Having played far more WRPGs this time around it’s become glaringly obvious just how ‘behind the times’ the games are, and although I’m still a sucker for a great JRPG story and battle system, things really do need to move on if the JRPG is to survive outside of Japan.

Persona 3 and 4 were a step in the right direction. Ultimately I think if anyone’s going to break the JRPG out of a rut it’ll be Atlus rather than SquareEnix.

Try Demon’s Souls & Valkyria Chronicles…

I agree with hitnrun.
I’ve started playing Demon Souls…..it gives me nightmares.

“Again , since there is only FF is this world , let’s not pretend that FFXII didnt happens , and didnt alter quite a bit the formula and gameplay .”

I’ll be the first to admit just how amazing Final Fantasy XII. It’s one of my favourites. Unfortunately, the fans of the franchise don’t agree, which is why we have a bunch of angst ridden teenagers crying their tears all over our screens again for FFXIII.

FFXII’s failure in the sales compared to previous titles only goes to *prove* Japan’s reliance on rinse-and-repeat formulas. It didn’t succeed because it was different.

“They are trying something different just like with FFX”

What exactly have they done different? Controllable summons? That was in X and the International version of XII. Anyway, that’s hardly a substantial concept – it’s just a slight addition to an already established idea. It’s useless adding one small new idea when the other 90% is utterly derivative.

“those who say that Bioware is progressing the RPG genre are really no different from those who can claim not to notice the same story in 9/10ths of JRPGs”

Not only has BioWare tackles many different styles and visual genres, but there’s more character development in one character (and it’s done more maturely, to boot) than in half the cast of the last 5 Final Fantasies.

“JRPGs are in desperate need of modernisation for a Western audience, but ultimately they’re not really for ‘us’”

For myself personally, the “westerisation” is not an issue. This isn’t a cultural thing – this is basic game design and expecting something more than the same rehashed ideas over and over and over and over and over again.

“Japanese audience that they’re intended for seem perfectly happy with them the way they are.”

The current state of the next-generation console market in Japan would argue otherwise.

He’s probally stuck on Demon’s Souls thats why he has said this.

nag all ye want good ol’ doctor is right, and that’s why I could not stand any jrpg after FFVII, they’re all boring and repetitive. A’int got Demon’s Soul yet, but this one I will.

and Dr. Zeschuk has done many good things for the industry especially for the RPG genre, and for those stupid ppl who think BioWare is doing “vacant-eyes-staring-past-you, crap-spoken-dialogue, poor-man’s-D&D game for the last 10 years” dude, wake up, it’s 2010, and you’ve been sleeping for 15 years now…

@50
That’s the beauty of the summons they are spirits,otherworldy beings…not cars and bikes.I’m totally with you i prefer controling the summon than appearing making a bluff and go away…but mechanical summons(transformers)?Realy?Kitsch.

Do you know how a dungeon crawler and how an RPG works.Going from city to another city and open areas,dungeons e.t.c is the RPG style.Going from one City(safe place)to dungeons is called a dungeon crawler(just like in Demon’s Souls)the only safe place is the Nexus.

I do refrain from story spoilers…But i did want to know how the game works.Yeah Ifrit is still in the game but that is like it was in FFXII where there were the airships the original summons(reference).There are only 6 summons in FFXIII…4 of them we know from previous FF’s.There are no more that you can use…Not like in VII where you spend some time to explore and acquire the best summon in the game that would do some serious damage (Knights of the Round)or in VIII (Eden) X(Anima,Magus Sisters)…and of course only one city in the game.
The game is great…but these “details” strays it from what made best in the FF universe.They try to evolve the FF franchise but they are doing it the wrong way…

Nomura’s goal with FFversus XIII is to keep these details and only change the concept of the game(which will be darker) and the battle system

Having played pretty much all FF installments and many of the spinoffs since FF 4/2 the major defining characteristic of the series, for me, is that with every iteration Square always make some radical changes to the core RPG template. For me, that’s one of the biggest draws of a new FF game – they keep changing things in interesting ways.

Not all JRPG developers show the same dedication that Square do but then, perhaps, that’s why Square have the status they do.

When BioWare’s games ‘teach’ Japan how to do it right with evidence of selling more than a AAA JRPG title *in Japan* then this is little more than saying “Our western RPGs are popular in the west” to a western audience that’ll get published on western videogame sites. When you’re preaching to the converted you’re not really saying all that much.

And the next by-the-numbers Zelda release (not that it’s really an RPG) will still sell more than the stuff that BioWare produce. There’s as much to be proved in favour of rigidly sticking to a template as not.

@59

That is disappointing about the summons just six? I can’t remember a FF that had that amount. THey always had more.

“Do you know how a dungeon crawler and how an RPG works.Going from city to another city and open areas,dungeons e.t.c is the RPG style.Going from one City(safe place)to dungeons is called a dungeon crawler(just like in Demon’s Souls)the only safe place is the Nexus.”

I know what a dungeon crawler is I have a few like DDS and Nocturne. I have no issue with this, if the story is good I can get past just having a single hub.

It is rather disappointing about the amount of summons though but its not a deal breaker for me. As long as the story is good as VII or X. I am fine. I just want to play new gen FF its been too long =-P

I dont think the genre need condescending lessons from a guy’s who’s idea of mature romance dialogue is the following porn cheese:

“Hey tis so coooold in my tent!!”

choice 1 : hey babe maybe i should warm you up then!!”

choice 2 : wtf do you want be to do ? I do not want!!

choice 3 , only a waste of time bringing you back to either 1 or 2 :
“are you sure it’s a good idea ?” followed by choice 1 or 2 .

followed by a self censored , and lousy to the point of being comedy gold , “mature” sex scene .
All that under the applaud of the press for recreating their own same old dialogue mechanics in the HD era .

But since it got sex it’s must be adult and real mature rite ?

At least in Dragon Age you can save your game when you like.

“At least in Dragon Age you can save your game when you like.”

Nope can’t save when Darkspawn is around, in a middle of a cutscene or in the midst of battle. =-P

OK NO BATTLE SWIRLS

Besides like you said yourself you seems to be the only one that deeply affected by those .

You expressed yourself over the save issue … i guess i’ll give my opinion .

I can deal with either the “pc” or “jrpg” version of saves fine . But personally i dont like the idea that in a game with multiple choices , you can just say “oops bad choice” and f9 quick load back to the comfort of not having yet made said mistake .

With this system there is less trials and errors , or real choices and learning … only guaranteed success at stuff like not taking an approval hit from Morrigan or alistair .

It still works for wrpgs , but add it to a game like persona , and it’s a bit ruined imo .

I can understand that. Games like Fable 2 tried a different approach of just saving pretty much everything you do just as you do it and it turned out that people didn’t really like that. Witcher on the other hand had the cause and effect pretty separate. You make a bad choice, it bites you in the ass 2 or 3 hours later.

indeed and i prefer those approach . I was baffled to see that you can pretty much unlock blood mage , basically something even more reviled in the game than Darkspawns , and instead of suffering it’s consequences (wich btw were oddly weak , at most some comments from teammates like wynn , and not even a approval from Morrigan — i was expecting if publicly showing that i’m a blood mage , something close to the famous Knight of the flaming fists in baldur 1 , or the anti-mage “police” in baldur 2) you can just reload and have the specialisation still unlocked , since it’s tied as a trophy/achievement , without redoing the quest that way .

Of course a player can chose to remain honest , but that’s something that shouldnt be in his hands to begin with .

I agree with you Neo I wish there was a more showing way of being a Blood Mage, hell even a Reaver and response from the NPCs especially those that were expressing their feelings about blood magic and here you are using it like its are out of style. But to be made because people can exploit a game is pointless, I played the game without reloading it once and delt with the choices I made like when I chose to work with Prophet and he teaching me Reaver. There are just people that will always use exploits or cheat, thats fine, they will realize that it hurts them with the experience.

Does it really hurt them? They are clearly enjoying the game trying to figure out the best way to do things and how to properly make the story they want.

The most important point is save points are horrid.

Properly? I don’t think using item duplicating cheat or reloading the game because of a bad choice is what the designers wanted.

Who gives a flying poop what the designers wanted? Games are about having fun, if you want to cheat in a single player game and enjoy it, I can’t see there being a problem at all. When I used to have LANs with my school mates we used to played Midtown Madness and launch our cars off a weird pyramid style building, the designers didn’t intend that but we did it for hours and had great fun.

If they are having fun sure why not for me personally doing things like duplicating items or reloading saves just ruins the experience.

Talk about RPG and you’ll have the biggest discussion of all times.

“Besides like you said yourself you seems to be the only one that deeply affected by those .”

he isn’t the only one =P .

btw, from what I remember Chrono Cross was the only jrpg that allowed saving in the field at any time.

I’m not reading through all the comments, but it’s sad to see that once an jrpg FINALLY does something new instead of the usual ‘anime emo kids save the world/universe linear crap’ that it’s immediately labelled as NOT a jrpg. I’m talking about DaMan’s #2 comment here, about Demon’s Souls.
SO I take it a jrpg has to be the same clichéd inane pap over and over and over again, or else it’s not a jrpg? There isn’t a facepalm big enough.

Demon’s Soul is a JRPG.

It’s just, sadly, the exception of quality this generation for the genre, not the rule.

if we assume the definition of JRPG to be “A game with RPG elements that was made in Japan” then yes, Demon’s Souls is a JRPG.

However, if we consider JRPG as a genre which is represented by games such as Lost Odyssey and Final Fantasy then no, Demon’s Souls is as far from it as it gets:
The battles are real time, you have direct control over your 1 character and most of the time you are fighting. If anything, it’s a japanese dev’s take on the Elder Scrolls formula.

that’s a dungeon crawler, or an action rpg.

say, if some japanese guys would make a game exactly like Morrowind, would you call it a jrpg?

Edit: yeah, that’s basically what I originally meant, mescaline.

if this wasn’t the internet, i’d totally jinx you.

Enough with the claim that demon souls is a japanese take on Elder scrolls and not a proper jrpg.

Demon souls is very much japanese and a continuation of work from software did already for more than a decade on their King’s field series . hell it even got pretty direct references to king’s field hidden into the game .

It’s king’s field with a 3rd person camera .

This stems imo from the gross and false generalisation that jrpgs is just “animu looking party saving the world in turn based combats” and doesnt encompass a wide sprectrum of genres .

Hell the first “shining force” game was a first person dungeon rpg , then it became its most known form as a tactical rpg , now currently it’s action rpgs (though those ones arent really good) .

Wizardry is still going on in japan with some success and in various forms (even psp) while the west gave up in the 90s …

So is Y’s , pretty much the japanese diablo (and predating him) .

the first two Shin megami tensei :devil summoners games were too first person based rpgs .

Jrpgs emcompasses genre and styles like : tactical rpg/srpg , action rpg , dungeon crawlers …

Just because wrpg suddenly discovered that they could do more than dungeon rpgs and the same Bioware and bethesda stuff on some cyclic basis , and actually add action games or fps stuff to it , doesnt make them more innovative than the others .

Nor less mind you .

Anyway my point is demon souls isnt such an oddity , it retains the feels of many rpgs from the same developer over many consoles , and doesnt need to thanks oblivion or whatever … or call itself something else than a jrpg .

I don’t remember “animu looking party saving the world” in Lost Odyssey or “turn based combat” in 1996 Star Ocean.

for me ‘jrpg’ is a certain subgenre, the game at least has to have a party (not necessarily anime or saving the world lmao. and I mean actually several controllable characters with personalities etc, in fact SMT Nocturne isn’t a proper jrpg in this sense while Persona is), and a certain structure overall. games like Shadow Hearts, Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, or Persona belong to it, while (btw) King’s Field doesn’t. but I think it actually comes from the fact that japanese role playing games became known to the rest of the world because of FF and similar games.

anyway.. I suppose the proper way would be calling say, Vandal Hearts a ‘tactical jrpg’, King’s Field ‘action jrpg’ and Star Ocean a ‘jrpg’.

It being obscure and unknown by most doesnt erase it’s existence … especially when again when it’s more than an oddity and cover a plethora of similar games .

All of those above are jrpg , but in their respective subgenres being tactical rpg , action adventure , action rpg , etc . Wich makes it correct and ok to call them as such instead.

However i stand by the idea that King field is very much a jrpg , and so is demon souls . From software’s lineage and history just proves it . But action-rpg is ok too .

Neoluc, did you read what I said? I basically agree, it’s just more convenient to call DS and SO different subgenre names.

yeah wich is why i edited back but nvm and sorry. I was mostly arguing against the notion that DS is that unusual for a japanese game (when a rich history of similar japanese games existeven prior to bethesda stuff), and an elder scrolls copy … not the action rpg label

and btw, I understand games like Gauntlet or Ys existed before Diablo, but that’s not what I meant. I don’t prefer such comparisons.. I mean, I wouldn’t say the NES Ninja Gaiden was the original hack n slash that are DMC and Xbox NG.

Of course , but again it’s more like setting the record straight on the fact that from software isnt out of the blue making demon souls , it’s a fresh take on a genre they are used to .

@61
Yeah ONLY 6 for 6 characters…and you have them right from the start.Also you control only one character based on the story,all the other AI ONLY which you can only change their class in battle and then they act according to that class.

Storywise i heard impressions from people that have finished it(not spoilers) that the game delivers…do not expect though a deeper story than VI,VII or X.Many say that it’s on par with VIII.
I personaly think the story and the fast paced battle system(which some things seem to be missing) are what hold this FF together.Although i don’t like so much melodrama…it’s way too much

“Also you control only one character based on the story,all the other AI ONLY which you can only change their class in battle and then they act according to that class.”

What do you mean by this? DO you mean we will only be controlling Lightning or will it go from character to character like scenarios?

ANd the combat we only control one character its not like the FF’s before XII where we can control each character’s attack? If so thats another disappointment.

TO note: I rather enjoyed FFXIII not as much as I did X or VI but the character developement and the journey up to the point of endgame was great. My only gripe was the main villain and her goal.

Too bad we get all summons from the start too but I guess its such a small amount would be an even more of a disappoinment being stuck with 3 summons and then looking for the other 3.

So ++I just managed to read the last line of this article…

(one of these days I’ll regain sobriety)
(maybe)
(and I’ll even read the comments)
(probably)

And I would just like to say to

“added that the western RPG has simply evolved further than its Japanese counterpart.”

Fuck you.

You’ve both evolved equally far.

Into oblivion.

By which I mean nothingness.

@DaMan

Saying that a game has to have several controllable party members with distinct personalities in order to be a JRPG is a tad ridiculous… does that mean Vagrant Story is suddenly not a JRPG? That’s a ridiculous criteria.

I’ve always found the greatest distinction between Japanese games and western games is the freedom of structure. Japanese games tend to have a very rigid and specific design, whereas western games tend to be much more free and open in structure.

As one example, compare Grand Theft Auto 3 to Yakuza.

I consider this to apply to RPGs as well. You tend to find that JRPGs have a much more linear structure – there is almost *always* a set path to follow, and the world you visit is very neatly housed inside the engine. Western RPGs, on the other hand, have a large focus on choice, decision, and freedom to do as you see fit.

I think its this obsessive focus on rigid structure which is exactly what has caused the genre (and Japanese gaming in general) to stagnate.

Obviously though, there are always going to be exception to the rule, and I find its the game that meld the best of both worlds – such as Demon Soul and Final Fantasy XII – that turn out the best.

Both sides can learn a lot from each other, but it’s impossible to ignore the stagnation of JPRGs over the last few years, whilst western RPGs have grown leaps and bounds and flourished… a genre that used to be viewed as something of a bastard stepchild in this region of the world up until recently.

If you’d told me a couple of years back that I’d much prefer WRPGs to JRPGs this generation then I’d have thought you were nuts. WRPGs have come on so much it’s almost unreal.

I’d count Yakuza as a JRPG, btw. So things are looking up a bit now that they’ve decided to release that in the West. Although they’re not releasing it on any platforms that I actually own. Shit.

Yakuza is hardly an RPG. It’s an action game with some weak statistics manipulating added on, ala Every. Single. Japanese. Game. Ever.

Calling Yakuza an RPG is a bit like calling FFX-2 an action game because you can jump over stuff by pressing a button.

You wander around talking to people, run missions for random NPCs, buy stuff from shops, pep yourself up with items, follow a linear story through numerous boss-fights to a (sort of) world-saving conclusion. Aside from the fisticuffs-based fighting it’s almost identical in structure to your common or garden JRPG.

@89
“What do you mean by this? DO you mean we will only be controlling Lightning or will it go from character to character like scenarios?”

The game is pretty much storydriven and from time to time within the game you get to control each one of the six characters.You have them all together in the party almost from the beginning but the character you can control switches on it’s own based on the story(you can’t switch them by yourself)
You have them all (6).The story gives you the main leader which you can control in and out of battle and later in the game you choose 2 out 5 of the other party members to assist you (AI) in battle.So every character passes to main leader sometime.
FFXII had the Gambit system which was pretty much the same concept (AI) with the difference that it gave you the freedom so if you wanted to you could control all of the 3 active party members in battle.
In FFXIII there’s a Job like system “optima change” which is much easier less complex than Gambit system,with a press of a button you change “job” for the AI active members and they assist the one you control accordingly.
Some say that battles are very fast paced that even if they gave you the freedom of using all 3 active members you couldn’t catch up and would be almost impossible to control all 3 of them

“TO note: I rather enjoyed FFXIII not as much as I did X or VI but the character developement and the journey up to the point of endgame was great. My only gripe was the main villain and her goal. ”

I don’t know much about the story…i don’t want to spoil it.I just heard impressions which are good.

“Too bad we get all summons from the start too but I guess its such a small amount would be an even more of a disappoinment being stuck with 3 summons and then looking for the other 3″

Everyone of the Six characters get stuck with one summon fron the beginning till the end…that’s a big dissapointment for me not only these summons are Transformer like which i find very kitsch but they took away the whole accomplishment feeling.
You know where you search for the mythical beast in ruins,dungeons e.t.c where you have to pass all the “challenges” to get it.
Bottom line…
SE always tries something new in every FF but they try not to take away some details that defines a JRPG in this case a FF.
When they started developing FFXIII they did day that they want to make a FF that would appeal even more to the West.West is supposedly asking evolution of the JRPG genre like this Bioware guy that implies there’s no evolution in JRPG’s and SE tries to deliver…but in the wrong way.
I think that JRPG’s should stick to what they are and not try to addopt the Western notion.
I would prefer a FF that is like VI,VII,VIII or even X(keep all the key elements and small details) with the only “evolution” being on the battle system…(XII had a very nice battle system)

I agree with you SE is taking most of aspects that I liked about the previous FFs. I will miss doing the quests like getting Anima, Eden, or Knights of the ROund. Hopefully it won’t be such a huge disappointment because FFXIII is SE one of the reason to play their games. There is still hope for Versus hopefully it won’t be another 4 years.

@Phoenixblight

The storyline explains the lack of summon collecting quite well. One thing that FFXIII has is something similar to the “hunts” of FFXII though, which I was personally a huge fan of.

You mean finding and collecting monster? FFX had a similar system only the Monster Catcher made them to be monsters some even impossible to beat unless you had some particular items. FVIII had also collecting monsters but it was so you could upgrade your weapon, I think atleast from what I read FFXIII has a similar system to that.

It’s more similar to FFXII’s system than FFX’s. You get it pretty soon in the game as well.

Yes it’s more similar to the XII monster hunting…
Nomura has other plans for FFVersusXIII.In fact when they began throwing ideas how the next FF should be Kitase had FFXIII in mind but Nomura had something darker not so melodramatic,a bit more mature,keeping a lot of basic FF elements and making a combat system a little bit more action that would resemble the one in KH.
So they went with Kitase’s idea for the next in line FF installment but Nomura didn’t gave up his idea thus named it VersusXIII(opposed to XIII concept).
In an interview he said that you can control every character in the game and there will be a World Map with cities e.t.c which these are missing from the FFXIII
As for the EMO like main protagonist he even said that they are giving him a haircut a little bit
We’ll have to wait and see…i’d say at the next E3