Zeschuk: JRPGs suffering “lack of evolution”

I’ve been saying this for years. They still have save points. Seriously, it’s 2009 and we have to put up with save points in RPG’s still. Sort it the fuck out.

I always found that when one developer moved forward in a part of design or on a technical level the competitors would ignore it where in the west a good idea by one developer is seen as the way forward and everyone moves forward together. Just annoying when one games does x right and one game does y right but you never get the game that does x and y right.

Demon’s Souls is a jrpg?

Demons Souls is Japanese. Its loosely an RPG… Guess that makes it a JRPG.

it’s a jDiablo.

Soooo… a guy from BioWare, the same company that’s been rehashing the same goddamn game over and over for the past ten years, says JRPGs don’t evolve?

Not saying they do, it’s just that he should be the last person talking about evolution of RPGs.

Why would we care? There are some of us (and we’re numerous) who just love “classic” RPGs and want new ones. Yeah Final Fantasy 7 has common points with FF 8, 9 and 10. So what? We love it and some things MUST remain unchanged (yeah that means FF12 was deep shit). I remember a review about Lost Odyssey in which the guy said “it’s too classic, turn by turn is so out of date” screw that! TbT RPGs are the ones I like best, period! What’s the point of all these ARPGs where you just keep on hitting the A/X button? Duh!
Give us jRPGs like the old ones, those are the best!

TD what are you talking about? Have you played Bioware games at all? How do they rehash their RPGs?

And Greg Zeschuk is not just some guy he is thee guy. He co founded Bioware and is in charge of EA RPG department with his partner. I agree with Greg they don’t evolve, they become more of a nostalgic thing for me like playing the original Mario or Mario N64. Its not neccessarly bad thing because I will still play the shit out of them. Square wants to sell more they need to start upping their game. Pun not intended Also I am glad that in FFXIII there is no more random encounter.

But the man is right.. Western RPG’s have evolved quite a bit. Storyline, choices, character development, have all progressed a lot further along than JRPG’s. Even how you interact with your environment has progressed.

Every modern JRPG i’ve seen has always been the same, with the same style of characters you can have in your party, to the same style of enemies you need to defeat, and they are also linear.

To me JRPG’s are not worth the money. The last decent one, for me, was FFVII, and I found plenty of faults with that (Hidden random encounters every 10 seconds.. urrk), but thats just me.

gawd, why do you guys use FF as an example? FF is the least evolved of them all. Square tried with 12 and the uh, “fans” didn’t like it.

but he’s basically right.

Surely fans not liking XII means that Square are doing it right in keeping it classic because thats what fans want.

Seriously, 2009, fuck, 2010 soon, if JRPG’s still have save points in them I want Japan raised into the sea.

Its because FF was the start of JRPGs?

Phoenix – no, that I understand. saying “FF” while implying all Squaresoft similar projects (CT, Xg etc) is one thing. using FF as the ultimate example of jrpg these days is another.

Maybe it is? FF is the biggest of them all and its the most known, thats why its used as an example of the end all be all of Jrpgs.

I just know it’ll be 2013 before Atlus have enough technical aptitude to make a megaten game for the PS3, it’ll still look like a PS2 game though.

Well if you don’t like FF being taken as an example, we can take Dragon Quest too… But the result is the same, fans like the classic thing and don’t want it to disappear. Who said everything had to evolve? Game companies have to please gamers, right? So if gamers want classic games, just let them have some! It doesn’t mean you can’t get “evolved” RPGs, it just means “unevolved” ones shouldn’t disappear

“They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it’s still the same experience.

yeah story does not count then, i guess..

guess what: ppl dont like changes.
and guess another: never change a winning team. at least not until it looses..1.1million first day i would count as win.

@Phoenix – FF has the biggest production values, but it isn’t the be all end all of jrpgs since FF6. and it’s combat is one of the least developed since FF 8-9.

Why am I the only person that find save points offensive?

@Hunam: Because we actually take it as a nostalgy piece maybe?
@DaMan: do you find Star Ocean’s battle system more interesting? lol

It’s lazy. It makes me angry. There is nothing clever about making me leave a game on the stat screen for 2 hours because I get called away and cant save my game.

Gurdil yeah, I do.

Hunam – yeah, for me it’s the same as some people liking random battles with screen swirling/breaking.

@Daman Why FF6? Its followed the same mechanics since the beginning some had changes like FFX with the ability to change characters on the fly and FFXII with Gambit system and Free roaming battles. And I was generalizing wasn’t actually saying it was the end all be all of Jrpgs.

@DaMan: well there it is, the two things you criticize in your post, save points and especially random battles, as well as what you said above about battle system are the difference between your likes and ours. You obviously like new RPGs like Star Ocean: the last hope, while we were incredibly disappointed in those.
I’m not saying your tastes suck, they’re just exact opposite to mine. The thing I can’t understand though is why you want the games we like to disappear… I can’t stand playing star ocean 4 and the likes so I just don’t buy them. I don’t go around forums saying it’s for retarded people or that these games need to be eradicated

“Hunam – yeah, for me it’s the same as some people liking random battles with screen swirling/breaking.”

I’d forgot about that. It’s lunacy!

I agree. Save points suck, life happens and I don’t want to leave my console running for hours on an inventory screen. Random encounters blow ass, it’s a cheap mechanic to force level building.

Lastly, Star Ocean combat rocks. Forcing combat thru tedious menus is just ameteur hour at best.

@MushroomStamp: the fact is I couldn’t wait for Star Ocean to be released and then… I played! Honestly I’m so glad I was able to play it in a shop before buying it, it would have been the third game I’d have bought and played less than 5 hours (with FF12 and The Last Remnant). Star Ocean combats just suck! There’s nothing interesting about them. It’s just fake real time. “oh I’m in da shit, need some time to think it through, well the game allows me to do that” chose what you want: either it’s real time either it’s not, in-between is just lame.

@Phoenix 6 was the first FF with a plot and characters on such a high level. it was the king of jrpgs until CT arrived (and CT was the alternative FF). 6-7 was the pinnacle of the series. FFX combat changes were minimal. in a way it was even a step backwards (by getting rid of the ATB).

@Gurdil – it’s not a ‘new’ jrpg. SO4 was the worst SO game (and possibly the second worst tri-Ace game). it was a joke compared to Second Story, and the battle system it uses is the same as 2003 Till the End of Time.

and Gurdil, I don’t want them to ‘disappear’, but I’m not sure SquEnix can afford developing both. and I wasn’t saying “die you pricks and your dated games” xD, I said I agree that jrpg genre is in a decline.

@DaMan: lol of course I was exxagerating your sayings but you get the idea. I understand your point about developing both I just think there are enough firms to develop both styles. I personnally don’t care if Square Enix drops classic RPGs as long as another firm makes good ones. Plus it means more jobs created, right? :p

Edit: I must admit I didn’t play Second Story so I take what you say for granted. But I still think the “evolution” of RPGs is not necessarily going the right way

@Phoenixblight If I’m not mistaken, Dragon Warrior was released a year before FF.

And yes, having to search out save points blows. I used to LOVE JRPG’s but they’re pretty much dead to me now. The choices and exploration options of western RPG’s is much better imo.

@Mauller

You are wrong the first FF came out in 87 where Dragon Warrior came out 89.

And in other news:
Rain seems to be wet.

DW came out in 1986 in Japan, so actually FF wasn’t the first one.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/data/563408.html

I was talking about us westerners not Japan.

I never got into jRPG’s but Mr Zeschuk is casting a wide net in his claim of the rise of western RPG’s. Games like GTA or Fable is what he also counts but I dont really buy into that they are on the RPG periphery at best.

Looking back into the muddy waters of old school cRPG’s in PC gaming were the likes of Bioware crawled out of and the western RPG was born all thats left from that scene are are Bioware, Bethesda and Obsidian.

Thats not a whole lot left doing AAA western RPG’s these days just 3 studios if one of them were to fall the genre would be on the endangered list.

In contrast Japanese studios still seem to pump out jRPG’s even if fewer and fewer people are buying them.

@ Pheonixblight

Final Fantasy was released in Japan in 1987 and in North America in 1990

Dragon Quest was originally released in Japan on May 26, 1986 for the Famicom and Dragon Warrior was localized for the North America release in August 1989

I own both games still in original boxes and the dates there say the same.

I think that SE is trying to evolve the FF franchise so it may be more appealing the west…Thus in FFXIII they put to much effort in graphics and fast paced battles and removed Cities-Towns,NPCS and other basic elements that made the FF franchise what it is.But they are doing it wrong again…

@mauller
THats what I get for looking at wikipedia. Doesn’t matter, even people that don’t play RPGs know what FInal Fantasy is. I only heard about Dragon quest year after FFVII.

@zoop

“removed Cities-Towns,NPCS and other basic elements that made the FF franchise what it is.But they are doing it wrong again…”

What are you talking about?

Chocobo- Check
Original SUmmons – Check
Cities – check
Crystals – Check
ATB system – Check

Not seeing anything that has been removed from the originals, I have played the demo, still has that same feeling that has made me come back to the series time and time again.

He’s right – except all videogame genres evolve slowly. Bioware games seem pretty similar too I notice, for example. jRPGs have evolved more slowly than most, but looking at the raft of identikit sequels like MW2, L4D2, etc. I don’t think Western developers are exactly taking big risks with each release either.

I’ve only read the first line of this articel

terribbly drunk

let me tell you who’s suffering

“lack of evolution”

from

you and your

black isle

random whore

“But the result is the same, fans like the classic thing and don’t want it to disappear.”

And that’s why the Japanese gaming industry is in it’s poorest state since its conception? Even the Japanese people don’t care that much about them anymore.

I don’t believe every game has to be a huge evolution either, but JRPGs have becoming derivative of each other to the point of being made completely redundant because of their inanely derivative nature.

A stagnant market dies, and Japanese RPGs have becoming depressingly stagnant in this generation.

He got some gall though .. the romance system of his games are lame so far .
Without even knowing it , he’s reproducing steps and dating mechanics already done since psx era jrpgs . Only with “sex” cutscenes they dont even stand behind and alter at the last minute .

behind shades of sexual allure , DA got a level of romance dialogue inferior to what’s proposed in let’s say any persona game on ps2 , or at best identical . hell it’s even pretty much the same gift system , same break up and multiple dating system

Jrps sure got issues , but so do western ones . let’s not make the mistake of assuming popular and trendy now = innovative .

As much as i love Dragon age , all signs points toward a (inferior ) Baldur’s gate HD , with simplified mechanics for console players .
It’s great but hardly a lesson in innovation .

For me, I tend to enjoy the western RPG’s because of the more open ended nature and not being locked into a single story path. I like the feeling that I can make choices and not just follow a story that is on rails. The last JRPG that I played and finished was FFX. The characters are just becoming so dull and interchangable.

Well this is precisely why both styles and flavors exists , with even further more subtles ones inbetween .

Some of us are very happy with both …
So yeah sometimes i’ll want to not be trapped into a linear , scripted and cinematic games , so i’ll play a good wrpg ….

Some other times i’d rather have more scenario and dialogue prospect than the likes of Alistair , Sten and Morrigan , and thus will play a good jrpg :p .

And btw , Since final fantasy is the only jrpg of the planet apparently …
bioware’s boss along with many people are falling into a trap of their own anyway .

The final fantasy series have been making quite some huge leap and change in gameplay starting FFX .

Again , since there is only FF is this world , let’s not pretend that FFXII didnt happens , and didnt alter quite a bit the formula and gameplay .

What are the big gameplay changes again between baldur , kotor and DA besides the graphical engine again ?

@Neo

I never said FF was the only Jrpg. I have quite the collection of JRPG ranging from Atlus to Square. Infact my favorite RPG of all time is not an FF its infact Vagrant story and CT.

@38
Original SUmmons?Mechanical ala Transformers summons don’t seem to be original…uncheck
Cities – There aren’t any cities in Pulse besides the floating continent/city Cocoon(so basicaly one city) it’s been confirmed by many who already finished the game…uncheck

@Zoop

THey are still the original summons their “overdrive” ability is doing the whole transformer thing. Still there is Ifrit, Shiva, Bahamuat. So check.

Good they made one area a hub for us to get our things. Not sure how cities made FF what it was.

ANd how in the hell did someone already beat the game its barely been a day since release. SOme of those japanese kids need to get out and get laid.

No Summons supposed to be supernatural(metaphysical)not mechanical…Even their attacks are mechanical…Beams,gatlic guns e.t.c
There is Ifrit in the game but he isn’t a summon.
FFXIII is uber linear that city goes for the story not for exploration or buying things…you buy things from savepoints.Many are saying that it resembles more of a dungeon crawler than an RPG…you see? these kinda seem out of the FF universe.
Some of these Japanese got their copy earlier

2 days earlier 40 hour game yep they still need to get out and get laid.

“No Summons supposed to be supernatural(metaphysical)not mechanical…Even their attacks are mechanical…Beams,gatlic guns e.t.c”

Who says they have to be metaphysical? I don’t remember it being stated all summons are metaphysical. They are trying something different just like with FFX and allowing us to control summons vs summoning then they attack and then bamf.

All of FFs were dungeon crawlers. GO to town get story moving, buy upgrades head to cave/tower/field for the next 4 hours, rinse, repeat. I don’t see how the city is the hub for story as an issue its been the same with most Jrpgs look at Nocturne or Digital Devil Saga.

Zoop if you would please refrain from spoilers. Even if Ifrit is not a normal summon he is still in game. Odin wasn’t a summon in FF8 he just appeared randomly throughout the game until Seifer kicked his ass. I still count him as a summon.