Sections

“Accept you’re a thief” if you’re still playing pirated Demigod, says Wardell

Monday, 11th May 2009 18:34 GMT By Patrick Garratt

demigoda3

Stardock boss Brad Wardell has told those still playing pirated copies of Demigod to accept they’re thieves.

The game debuted at number three in the US PC charts, but Wardell said that doesn’t make playing hooky versions of the game acceptable.

“Demigod is heavily pirated,” said the exec on his blog. “And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.

“If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.”

Demigod was pirated over 100,000 times in its opening weekend.

Breaking news

79 Comments

Sign in to post a comment.

  1. Alakratt

    YEAH!! This will surely scare the hell out of those pirates…

    lol!!!!!!!!

    EDIT: btw, being a pirate rules, har harrr!!

    #1 5 years ago
  2. Psychotext

    …accept you’re a copyright infringer…

    /runs

    #2 5 years ago
  3. Gekidami

    Arrr, me hearty! Th’only thin i be piratin is’th’great seven seas! Yo ho ho!

    #3 5 years ago
  4. Alakratt

    He should be proud of the 100,000 times it was pirated. That means the game was wanted by many, granted, they didn’t wanna pay for it. Still, it also means he won’t be driving in that Porsche any time soon. hehehe

    #4 5 years ago
  5. TheTwelve

    Lots of these people made this game in order to provide for a living — I don’t think any of us would laugh if our earnings were stolen after good, hard work.

    Developers need to get ahead of the pirate wave or the gaming industry can kiss itself goodbye.

    12

    #5 5 years ago
  6. Alakratt

    Oh please, you really think they aren’t getting paid because of this piracy? It still sold, ok, it didn’t sell as much as they are expecting but still. This guy is trying to make this bigger than it really is. And you are just buying his bs.

    btw, let me get the violins while I read your comment again.

    #6 5 years ago
  7. TheTwelve

    It’s every person’s right to get what they work for, 100%.

    12

    #7 5 years ago
  8. Alakratt

    They are still getting it, just not in money but word of mouth. You have to admit, piracy also promotes a game.

    #8 5 years ago
  9. TheTwelve

    They’re not getting what they worked for. I’m sure that if you have a job right now, you expect every last penny.

    12

    #9 5 years ago
  10. Redh3lix

    Maybe more software houses should provide demo’s of their titles before release? Maybe they should implement DRM solutions that dont effectively sleep with your wife/girlfriend as they’re that intrusive etc.

    Maybe they should go STEAM.

    #10 5 years ago
  11. Gekidami

    I find it funny how devs seem to assume a pirate copy = a lost sale, most of the time people simpley wouldnt have played the game if they couldnt have got it ‘free’.

    #11 5 years ago
  12. Alakratt

    It’s the devs fault if they thought releasing a PC game wouldn’t get pirated. If they thought that, then they deserve what they are getting. Also, last I heard, they released this game full of bugs, so there you go. Can’t believe in this day and age that some companies act surprised and pissed off about piracy in the PC world.

    #12 5 years ago
  13. TheTwelve

    The basic rules of any marketplace apply to the gaming industry; this stuff is only going to hurt us all if things don’t change. We know for a fact that thieves will always try to steal, so they won’t change. Developers have to get smarter and learn to protect themselves.

    12

    #13 5 years ago
  14. Aimless

    I don’t believe he’s selling any “bs”, Alakratt, although luckily it would appear that you give it out for free.

    All Mr. Wardell is saying is that the pirates should either buy the game or accept they’re thieving little toerags. Surprisingly this is a lot to ask as they have a funny disposition towards rationalising their actions and getting it into their heads that they somehow deserve to play games for free. Oh, and incidentally Stardock don’t use any DRM.

    #14 5 years ago
  15. Alakratt

    @ TheTwelve

    I agree with you but not completely, I believe that those rules don’t necessarily apply in gaming. Some rules may apply, but not all. If the devs wanted this game not to be pirate food, then they should’ve released it on Steam (like Redh3lix said).

    #15 5 years ago
  16. Leathersoup

    Once again the sociopaths turn out in droves to support their piracy habits.

    #16 5 years ago
  17. Shatner

    Thank you, Alakratt, for helping to raise game prices so that honest people have to pay more to compensate for your greed.

    Oh and being paid in ‘word of mouth’ ain’t going to pay the bills. Would you like to be paid in word of mouth? I’m sure your employers would be happy to say things about your work instead of give you money for it.

    After all, talk is cheap. Especially when you can say things whilst bravely hiding behind anonymity.

    #17 5 years ago
  18. Alakratt

    @ Aimless

    hheheh, so I give it out for free huh?

    Don’t worry people, I won’t start throwing flamebait around, but you have to LOVE the moral brigade here. pathetic…

    For example, I’m a music pirate, and if it wasn’t for piracy I wouldn’t know most of the bands I know today. Some music “artists” critize piracy, claiming that they are affected by not enough sales bla bla bla, but yet, you see them on limousines and big houses.

    So don’t get moral on me and claim pirates are thieves when Demigod was released unfinished! Full of bugs and all! The Demigod makers (if we can call them that) are the real thieves here!

    @ Shatner

    You’re welcome!

    #18 5 years ago
  19. Shatner

    Karma, Alakratt.

    Would you be happy if others helped themselves to your work and then laughed in your face when felt you ought to be paid for it?

    If you wouldn’t want to be treated in such a way then it would be inappropriate for you to treat others in such a way.

    #19 5 years ago
  20. Alakratt

    You people act as if they are on the street begging for money! They are doing just fine, they just think that every pirated copy means a lost sale, which ain’t true.

    I never said that piracy is good, I just look at it in another way. You gotta admit that it acts as a sort of promotion to the game and some of those pirates might get their copies locked up after an update and decide to buy it after all.

    So while looking at piracy from the “good” side is the first thing to do, try and look at things from another perspective.

    #20 5 years ago
  21. Leathersoup

    @Alakratt

    Is that how you justify your actions? You look at it from another perspective?
    I just hope for those people around you that you’re able to keep your rationalizations to theft crimes only…

    #21 5 years ago
  22. Alakratt

    yawn…

    This fight against the “moral” zombies is getting boring, I’m gonna go watch some of my pirated Pirates porn DVD lol.

    #22 5 years ago
  23. deftangel

    There are far too many commenters on this thread who clearly haven’t read the blog post or have any awareness of Stardock’s fairly switched on attitude to piracy and DRM. I don’t think he’s said anything remotely ‘bs’ or unreasonable. Doesn’t mean he has to be all nice to the 100,000 people who want to take the piss though does it?

    #23 5 years ago
  24. dirigiblebill

    “So don’t get moral on me and claim pirates are thieves when Demigod was released unfinished! Full of bugs and all!”

    Which are being ironed out. For free.

    Man puts a superb clock out for sale in his store window, then leaves the window open. Another man nicks it on the pretext that while the clock gives perfect time, one of the buttons is wonky.

    The clockmaker meanwhile notices this flaw, and offers to repair all such clocks purchased to date at his own expense.

    Who’s the bigger bastard?

    And while there’s no conclusive evidence to suggest a pirated copy equals a lost sale, there’s just as little to indicate that it doesn’t.

    Let’s say just 1,000 pirates would have bought one £30 game apiece last year – a year in which nearly 9000 people in this industry lost their jobs – had they been given no choice. £30,000 in potential sales. A decent salary.

    #24 5 years ago
  25. Mike

    Do developers only get paid according to how much the game sells? I thought they got paid for a job. What happens after they’ve done their bit isn’t their concern is it?

    I mean, musicians get royalties, as do actors, but devs just get paid, innit. So all this “Would you be happy if others helped themselves to your work and then laughed in your face when felt you ought to be paid for it?” coming from a development point of view is moot surely?

    #25 5 years ago
  26. DarkElfa

    Alakratt is correct. I’ve never pirated anything I’m actually willing to pay for. If that were true then I wouldn’t still go to the movies, buy DVD’s and purchase games from Gamestop and through Steam. I do use it to try stuff out and see stuff I wouldn’t spend the effort on otherwise and it usually turns out to be for good reason. Am I a pirate? No, but I do procure items from them. There has actually been more than one occasion when something I’ve procured led to me purchasing said item which would not have happened if I had not gotten the pirated version first. Either way, it needs to stop being referred to as theft. A data copy is not the same as the theft of tangible, physical property and it never will be. If you go into a store and steal a TV, the company is out thousands of dollars despite whether you would have purchased the TV or not had you not been able to steal it. The same equivalency is not and will not ever be applicable to a digital copy of 0′s and 1′s because to call it theft requires the assumption that the “thief” would have purchased the item had he not been able to get the copy which is just that, an assumption and one that I for one can attest to, is inaccurate. Or to try and put it a little more simple, If I steal the TV, the company is out 2 grand. If I copy the TV, the company is only out the illusion that I might purchase that TV in the future and if I won’t ever have 2 grand then its just that, an illusion.

    #26 5 years ago
  27. dirigiblebill

    Mike -

    If the developer’s product flatlines through lack of sales, thus plunging the publisher’s margins into the red, then yes, it’s their concern.

    An “if”, yes, but not a far-fetched one.

    #27 5 years ago
  28. Mike

    dirigiblebill – Of course, but that’s only conjecture for now isn’t it? Or is there a direct and provable relationship between the two?

    #28 5 years ago
  29. dirigiblebill

    No, as I said before there’s no conclusive evidence either way, but I find it hard to believe that 100,000 out of the 100,000 who pirated Demigod at launch would absolutely, emphatically have not bought the game otherwise.

    #29 5 years ago
  30. Mike

    Yeah, but that’s got nothing to with the individual developer though has it? He/she still got paid.

    #30 5 years ago
  31. dirigiblebill

    Well, Stardock seems to be getting by, yes – will be interesting to see their financial results for 08-09, if they announce them.

    EDIT – Or did you mean that regardless of whether a game flops or flies, individual developers will still get the wage they’re contracted for? Providing the company hasn’t gone bankrupt – of course. But will they still have a job at that company the following year?

    #31 5 years ago
  32. endgame

    bah, i can’t read more of this b/s. Alakratt u’r a f**king a**hole! everyone else, why r u talking back to this guy? it’s clear he is incapable of understanding the concept of work. look it up on the web a**hole! maybe u’l learn something.
    Pat, u guys should delete these kinds of posts. or, find an alternative to deleting. idk.. promoting piracy so pisses me off. especially if u do it that way. i won’t say much about the game. or about mr. wardell. basically, i have mixed opinions about the first and good ones about the second. and yes, i played and still play the game when i have the time.

    #32 5 years ago
  33. Mike

    @db: that’s the point, it’s all speculative. From a development point of view piracy could mean nothing by way of your pay cheque at the end of the month. Games will always need to be made. The amount of games being made doesn’t seem to be slowing down although piracy is rife. So why, as a developer, should piracy bother you?

    (unless of course, there’s a clear and definable connection between downloading a title and a dev losing their job)

    #33 5 years ago
  34. deftangel

    “Do developers only get paid according to how much the game sells? I thought they got paid for a job. What happens after they’ve done their bit isn’t their concern is it?”

    So that makes it all alright then? There are a variety of revenue models in the games biz, some of them milestone based, some of them royalty based but regardless, it’s absolutely fair to be concerned if their ability to have a job making games is in any way compromised by rampant piracy.

    #34 5 years ago
  35. Mike

    Yeah, IF their ability to have a job making games is compromised. Where’s the proof that it is? There isn’t any afaik. If there is, then fair enough.

    #35 5 years ago
  36. Alakratt

    @ endgame

    no I’m not :(

    Dude I respect your opinion, too bad you’re a brainless f*ck who doesn’t respect the opinions of others. Oh and calm down, it’s just a discussion.

    #36 5 years ago
  37. El_MUERkO

    i’m still waiting to receive my copy from shopto but i’ve not bother downloading it

    #37 5 years ago
  38. Shatner

    Ah Mike. You’re so transparently contrary to a particular view that you’ll demonstrate your own ignorance just for the hell of it! You’re a few whiskers away from promoting piracy in your determination to be contrary.

    I’m glad we can rely on losers like Alakratt and clueless folk like you to reliably tell us how things work!

    #38 5 years ago
  39. NiceFellow

    Mike – staff get paid out of the company’s money. If the company folds (because for example sales weren’t high enough) then they lose their jobs, etc.

    Sure games are being made but right now many developers are losing jobs and companies are going bust – so they’re going to be hyper sensitive to anything that could affect income.

    As for piracy, sure not every copy means a lost sale, but some must. Even 5% of 100,000 is a fair bit on income to lose (and that’s just loses over the first weekend).

    The issue is that with digital assets its easy for people to take the view (and rationalise) that they’re copying, not stealing directly.

    Mind you the view that ‘its just a fact on PC’ is depressing. Sounds like ‘you don’t go to that area or you get mugged’ It might be true, but that doesn’t mean its a good thing.

    Mind you, with stupid DRM antics, etc. developers haven’t helped their case either. I understand they want to protect their assets – but making life a misery for your paying customers is just about the worst response I think.

    #39 5 years ago
  40. Grimrita

    There are means and ways to stop the pirates – Steam is one way – so there is no point complaining about it, if you arent prepared to make changes.

    And everyone uses pirates as an excuse to mask poor sales. Sins of a Solar Empire shifted over 250k in the US alone – because it was a damn fine game and they had good DRM.

    Time to wake up me thinks!

    #40 5 years ago
  41. Alakratt

    This is just a discussion, it’s not like our opinion (which differs a lot from yours) will change anything. I’m not in the government, nor the company, so my opinion does not change a thing, but people like Shatner and the rest of the moral squad act like it does. So, again, calm the f*ck down!

    #41 5 years ago
  42. blackdreamhunk

    It’s funny that game devs trash pc gaming with pircay talk when consoles have just as much or even more. I can back my statements with facts. Here is what 2d boy had to say about drm.
    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23570

    pircay on consoles

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/1-Billion-Dollars-Worth-Pirated-DS-Games-Were-Seized-83135.shtml

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10232

    yes even the great sony ps3 gets pirated

    http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/rehashplus/post.htm?id=63005989

    By the way I bought demigod it’s a good game but not worth $40 it needs more contente.

    #42 5 years ago
  43. Shatner

    Alakratt, you’re in no position to present any sort of moral argument or question the moral position of anyone else. Nor are you a poor, put-upon victim.

    You, and people like you, are the problem.

    #43 5 years ago
  44. SwiftRanger

    I think Wardell makes a valid point when he says that people who are still playing the pirated copy from day one up until now are just loathsome folks. If you invest so much free time in it and clearly have fun with it then they should be willing to pay up as well. More sales isn’t just for keeping Stardock/GPG alive but it will increase the odds for more future free content and better addons/a more ambitious Demigod 2; a thing which will be good for everyone who enjoyed the original game.

    Demigod isn’t full of bugs either, the matchmaking needs fixing but nearly every other major PC title has featured errors like that (L4D, GTA IV, DoW II, Empire, etc.). That’s just PC gaming and it doesn’t give you any excuse to start pirating these games and to never buy them, not even when they’re patched.

    For the record: both Sins of a Solar Empire and Demigod have ZERO DRM, you can install them and play them right away offline, that’s even less restrictive than the Steam online authentication ‘solution’. To get updates with new free content and to play multiplayer you need to register on Impulse though.

    And jeezes, 29th April? :)

    #44 5 years ago
  45. Alakratt

    …whatever…

    You’re absolutely right Shatner, I am the problem and also, I am the creator of all things evil…didn’t you noticed?

    #45 5 years ago
  46. freedoms_stain

    “There are means and ways to stop the pirates – Steam is one way – so there is no point complaining about it, if you arent prepared to make changes.”

    Games on Steam get pirated too. There is no successful method of DRM on PC.

    #46 5 years ago
  47. deanimate

    cottage cheese anyone?

    #47 5 years ago
  48. Grimrita

    Thats right Swift – but maybe thats the way forward. I also believe that people download games to give them a try to see if they will like it.

    You cant believe a single review out there as the $$$ spent on advertising, or promises of exclusive content on a crappy triple A guarantees a much higher review score.

    #48 5 years ago
  49. blackdreamhunk

    lets take a look at more console pircay

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Almost-1-Billion-Dollars-Lost-by-Nintendo-in-2007-78918.shtml

    the wii has lost 1 billion to pircay that is alot more than pc pircay. Another thing can publishers and game devs prove the number of game pirated because as far as I know pircay is almost imposible to track!

    http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/17901/Pirated-Copy-of-Gears-of-War-2-Hits-the-Internet/

    http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/10/10/fallout-3-pirated-on-the-xbox-360/

    should I post more proof of console pircay!! In fact pirates don’t make money off of pc games. They do make money on console pircay.

    http://kotaku.com/5084522/epic-sinks-gears-2-piratemodder-in-court

    #49 5 years ago
  50. Syrok

    How do pirates make money? It’s just a matter of downloading stuff that’s free.

    #50 5 years ago
  51. blackdreamhunk

    this is how they make money off of consoles, they sure make alot of money too!

    http://kotaku.com/5084522/epic-sinks-gears-2-piratemodder-in-court

    http://www.lazygamer.co.za/general-news/driver-gets-caught-with-100-copies-of-gears-of-war-2fable-2

    #51 5 years ago
  52. freedoms_stain

    @ Syrok:

    When it comes to PC pirating you pretty much just download an ISO and a crack and you’re done, the files are available free and anyone who knows where to get them can – which is pretty much everybody, so there isn’t much market for pirates to actually sell pirated PC games.

    Consoles on the other hand often require hardware mods or special media in order to run illegal copies of games – these can’t be provided free so there’s a market for providing them so long as the net cost is less than buying legit copies.

    #52 5 years ago
  53. blackdreamhunk

    you don’t need mods to pirate games on consoles that is a myth.

    #53 5 years ago
  54. Syrok

    Ah, thanks, freedom.

    PS: @Pat: The timestamps are way off.

    #54 5 years ago
  55. Johnny Cullen

    Yeah, I noticed that too :S

    #55 5 years ago
  56. dirigiblebill

    Mike -

    It’s a matter of speculation, yes, but again I find it difficult to believe that piracy isn’t having a negative effect on the individual developer, however minor. As has been observed, if even a fraction of pirated games translate to lost sales then the consequences are severe.

    That the number of games in development seems healthy (do you have some supporting figures?) need prove nothing about piracy. It might be argued (generalising hopelessly) that the huge influx of mainstream consumers the industry has experienced as a result of Nintendo’s success blinds us to the losses suffered by individual companies.

    #56 5 years ago
  57. blackdreamhunk

    pubishers and game devs should come back to me when they have real hard numbers on pc gaming pircay. They can bring console pircay numbers too. The funny part the media eats it all up too. we all know how the gaming industry media likes pc gaming!!!!

    here is the real reason game dev talk about pc gaming pircay and not console pircay

    http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58136

    http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/39622/Microsoft-Explain-PC-Game-Release-Delays

    http://kotaku.com/5206876/what-ails-the-worlds-biggest-gaming-platform

    it’s because sony and micro soft is not making money on consoles. They spent waht billions on them.

    notice how it’s mustly epic games and fable game devs who started these garbage about pc gaming piracy!

    by the if pc gaming dies so does all of gaming. Pc gaming is the back bone of the pc industry. AMD who near bankupacy is proof of that. Also big business is not helping dell out these days too.

    by the way i have to ask stardock a good question did they really finsh demi god on time or are they just blaming pc gaming for every thing like must console game devs these days?

    #57 5 years ago
  58. Shatner

    You’ll never get ‘real hard numbers’ on piracy because, for some crazy reason, the pirates don’t submit their activities to the NPD type groups to track the numbers.

    Software theft, by it’s nature, depends on not being tracked. If instances were tracked then it could be controlled. It is rampant because those that steal software are confident that nobody will catch them doing it.

    So anyone attempting to dismiss or lessen the issue simply because numbers cannot be produced is just a demonstrating that they’ve not put a lot of thought into the topic.

    The closest you get to reported numbers are when games like Demigod or World of Goo have some sort of server callback in the game. This gives an indication of how many copies of the game are ‘out there’ to the publisher which they can then compare against the tracked information for unit sales. This way an estimation of how many illegitimate copies of the product can be determined.

    And when this happens..? The pirates and their supporters just dispute it all and call the developers and publishers greedy liars. How ironic!

    Anyone capable of stealing software is probably also old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. So all these excuses that pirates and those that support piracy concoct to obfuscate the issue is just fluff.

    As for the DRM excuse: DRM is a response to piracy, not the other way around. Pirates aren’t bothered about freedom of speech and user rights. They just want stuff without having to pay for it. Titles without DRM are pirated – thereby completely negating that particular pirate excuse.

    #58 5 years ago
  59. blackdreamhunk

    So if that is the case why are the pubishers and game devs not talking about console pircay too?

    Oh wait it’s only pc gaming that has the problems, right!

    I rest my case!

    oh I forgot one more thing why doesn’t stardock take legal action at the website where the games are being played? the problem would be solved

    agin I rest my case.

    #59 5 years ago
  60. Shatner

    Well, if you hadn’t noticed, this story is about a PC game from a PC game publisher.

    Crazy idea, but maybe, just maybe that’s why he’s not going on about console piracy!

    To be honest blackdreamhunk, I’ve not been following your ‘case’ but if anyone is implying that piracy is limited to one area / platform then they’re talking nonsense.

    I don’t know why you’re asking people here why Stardock are/aren’t doing certain things. Surely it would be sensible to actually ask them those questions instead of people who cannot possibly give you any sort of informed answer. Your question might be a good one, but you’re directing it in such a manner as to make it worthless. You present your question to those that cannot answer it and, when you get no answer, you act as though it proves you are right about something. It proves nothing of the sort. You take care to avoid getting an answer because you want to ensure no answer is given and give yourself the opportunity to have your view unchallenged by the only people qualified to challenge it (in this case, Stardock). You’ve manipulated the presentation so as to give yourself the outcome you want. It doesn’t prove you’re right. It’s just a weak bit of manipulation.

    Piracy is opportunistic. It’s not some bold statement about capitalism. It’s minimum effort access to entertainment. Why bother to go to the shops and buy a game when you can sit on your fat pirate ass and download some data and burn it to disk with a couple of mouse-clicks? It’s just greed, combined with laziness and lack of accountability. As far as games are concerned, the PC is an open platform and therefore presents a rich and comparatively easy opportunity compared to consoles.

    A console is a DRM box. It is sold as a sexy box of entertainment to consumers. But, from an industry perspective, it’s a DRM box. Steam is a DRM service. Neither are perfect, but both, compared to conventional PC software distribution, go some to way stemming the flow of piracy. The costs of introducing that tech to the consumer may be very high, but the potential returns are easier to control and manage for the IP holders and those who have a right to expect a return on their investment and effort. This is one of the reasons platform manufacturers can claim a licence fee – because they are presenting something attractive to software publishers that the PC platform cannot offer.

    #60 5 years ago
  61. blackdreamhunk

    wow last time I checked i payed for all my pc games. In fact I like my CE of games. People who don’t buy their games tend to be poor. I ‘m pc gaming with an elite rig. I buy my games thanks. In fact I like mmo’s more than I like single player games. They are deepers games.

    Maybe some console game devs need to wake up and be like anet or blizzard because they are not making any money these days I wonder why!

    frankly this who pircay talk is getting lame. it’s all over the internet.

    http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/46910/Crytek-CEO-on-PC-Gaming-Piracy

    how is mid way, Interplay, 3d relams doing these days so meny publisher and game devs going bankuprt with high prodution costs of consoles. Alot more people are going lose their jobs and it’s not because of pircay.\

    another thing pc gamers don’t need to buy windows, or even AMD, IBM products. I wonder what game devs would do if pc gamers start to boycott AMD, IBM and micro soft. Not really good in a ression.

    By the way there is talk of companies that want to cater to pc gamers. I like this article too by the way

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/164701/windows_7_will_never_outshine_vista.html

    #61 5 years ago
  62. deanimate

    i lieks chips

    #62 5 years ago
  63. blackdreamhunk

    I like being on top of the food chain ;)

    #63 5 years ago
  64. Shatner

    “People who don’t buy their games tend to be poor.”

    Firstly, “poor” is a relative term.

    Secondly, given your demand for “real hard numbers” earlier on, you’ve just made a pretty interesting claim on behalf of a great many pirates. I think it would only be decent of you to present some “real hard numbers” for you to back up your claim. It would be a rather uneven debate if you were to question every claim made by one party and insist on “real hard numbers” and then go about making some pretty wild claims of your own without offering some “real hard numbers” to support them.

    Thirdly, if you are poor and cannot afford something then you go without.

    blackdreamhunk, it’s good to know you buy your games. I dare say Stardock would appreciate both your views and your custom.

    #64 5 years ago
  65. DarkElfa

    Regardless of whether or not Piracy is wrong, the bottom line is that there is no actual proof its causing any harm. The facts are that all of the companies complaining about Piracy are still making huge bank and record profits, just like the Movie studios and Record companies. What Piracy has done for them is give an easy excuse for them when a product fails. Nobody, not even Pirates are going to DL a piece of crap song, movie or game. Case in point, the work print leak of Wolverine became one of the biggest DL’d leaks in history yet it still made massive bank despite all of the crap reviews prior to release. Its only dropped now that legitimate viewers have had a chance to see how bad it is. If it would have failed, they would have blamed Piracy but it didn’t so its become a moot point. Pirates may be big, fat lazy thieves, but they create fantastic word of mouth and all press is good press in the end. I can name over 16 games that I never would have bought had I not DL’d a Pirated version first, the most recent being GTA4. I tried it and wanted a copy to keep, so I bought it through Steam and in the end Rockstar lost nothing and gained a sale it would not have made otherwise.

    #65 5 years ago
  66. Mike

    So I’m clueless although nothing’s been presented to explain why and no evidence to show a direct correlation between piracy, less videogames being developed and more developers being out of a job as a result?

    heh. I’m the clueless one.

    #66 5 years ago
  67. Shatner

    So piracy is ok because

    a) Because pirates don’t submit their activities to any independent tracking bodies they can claim that there is no ‘proof’ of the outcome of their actions. And when publishers like 2D-Boy and Stardock show a massive disparity between units sold and actual number of games trying to access their servers the pirates can just dismiss the information as rigged/lies/not detailed enough. I explained this in #58.

    b) If (you believe) a company is making a profit then it doesn’t matter if they’re making the revenue they’re entitled to. They should be happy with any profit and not question whether their profits are being affected by software theft.

    Making “any” profit isn’t what it’s about. You need to make a required return on your investment. So whilst the punter thinks “ah, they’re making a profit, they’re quids in” it doesn’t mean all is rosey.

    Furthermore, don’t confuse “revenue” with “profit”. You can’t possibly claim a product is making profit unless you know precisely how much it cost to produce and what its financial commitments are. You’re very ready to present the IP holders as people that are just looking to get richer and looking to profit off punters. But your actual access to financial data is going to be non-existent. You don’t know what these products cost to make. You may not even consider the cost of bringing them to market. Costs don’t stop when a game goes gold or when a film opens. Overheads don’t stop either. So the amount of money required to cover costs for a product that comes out in January will actually be different in February because costs will still be being incurred.

    You simply don’t know.

    But, irrespective of all of that, you’re going to say that it doesn’t matter. These people ARE making profit and making more profit than software pirates deem them entitled to is just greed.

    Piracy isn’t an excuse. Good grief. There’s been a fucking load of piss-weak excuses presented in this discussion but it’s pretty amazing that the notion of greed and accusations of weak excuses can be levelled by those that seek to dismiss what piracy does to the industry.

    Software piracy is a step beyond the most basic concept that 5-year olds can grasp:

    You’re not automatically entitled to things.

    No software pirate or their supporters ever seems to understand that crucially basic thing. Or rather, they won’t allow themselves to acknowledge it, because if they did it would undermine every single “excuse” they present to justify why they should take something without paying the asking price for it simply because they want it.

    #67 5 years ago
  68. Shatner

    Oh good grief Mike. Stop whimpering. Present an argument if you have one. Your contrary-for-the-sake-of-it prancing about is just moronic.

    And given how stroppy you get when your profession is judged by others and the line you try to take with your critics, you really shouldn’t go about whimpering your guesses and virtual shrugs as anything better than the sham of blatant hypocrisy.

    (And in answer to your question, yes, you’re clueless. And you take the exact same “prove it” failure of logic that all this other pro-piracy idiots take) Still, if you want to be regarded as a pro-piracy gaming “journalist” then I’m sure that’s going to look great on your CV.

    #68 5 years ago
  69. blackdreamhunk

    I like how some publisher like to treat their fans. Such business don’t belong to pc gaming.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umnvziIZFNU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.socrossblog.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

    I just wanted to add this here for people to see. pircay is problem but it’s not limited to the pc. End of story, you want to talk about pircay we talk about all of it or none at all!

    #69 5 years ago
  70. Alakratt

    That review was so fucking funny!!!!! lol!!!
    I can’t believe this discussion it’s still going on! Anyway, since I’m out of good arguments and I love to piss off Shatner, here’s my two cents: piracy will exist as long as companies who overcharge for products exist as well, so there. So to Shatner, LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT, if you don’t like it, just shut the fuck up!!

    #70 5 years ago
  71. Esha

    Here’s another scenario for the holier-than-thou types…

    What if a pirate downloaded simply to recreate the conditions of the shareware era of gaming?

    If you’re wondering what I’m trying to posit here, thhen I’ll elucidate: Consider that in today’s environment, publishers and even seemingly innocent developers can be as much of a crook as anyone else, some of them would rightly stab you in a dark alley and run off with your wallet if they could. There are plenty of parasites out there, and not everyone is putting out a good product, no matter how sincere they may seem. And not even indie developers are free from this (Stalin vs Martians, anyone?).

    Let’s say that a pirate is poor (and this is to debunk the rather basic arguments I’ve seen against piracy by the poor) and they can only afford two titles, now riddle me this: Which is better for the industry, that they buy two titles based on word of mouth/media reviews, which could be total crap, or that they spend their money on products which they know are worthwhile?

    Furthermore, let’s stipulate that such a pirate will only play about the first 20-30 per cent of a game. Such a game may or may not have a demo, it most likely won’t, and these days demos seem to be cherry-picked from the best moments of the game, rather than being a fair portrayal of the play experience from start to end.

    Were a publisher or a developer brave enough to actually try this, then there might be no need for this kind of piracy, but very few are. 2D Boy deserve praise here, because this is exactly what they did by releasing the first World in their demo of World of Goo. But look at how other developers and publishers behave in comaprison to this. The World of Good demo should be the norm, but instead it’s a rare event.

    And such parasites are using this to thrive, by putting forth a good marketing campaign and doing their best to ensure that their game has high media scores. I would also point out that companies exist solely to provide the service of spreading good word-of-mouth for a given product, and surely these companies could not exist unless they had some marketing divisions hiring them to spread the good word about their product, eh? I’ve no doubt that some will go to any lengths.

    So the end result is that the average gamer can’t really trust anything other than their own experience.

    And this is something I think that needs to be brought to light, because there’s a middle-ground here, I would offer that not every pirate is evil, and not every publisher/developer is a shining paragon of merit and benevolence. Everything has two sides to it, and even games that get 90+ per cent in most magazines will be talked about darkly on forums by those who feel ripped off.

    Now in this scenario, the aforementioned parasites can hoover up money, because they put more cash into ensuring that a sham of a game looked good than actually into making a good game. Whereas those who make a great game might not be so well noticed because their marketing campaigns weren’t as well funded. There are sleeper hits old (Beyond Good & Evil) and new (King’s Bounty) that won’t get noticed or funded because of this.

    Furthermore, I’d go on to claim, in my opinion, that these parasitic developers/publishers are as much to blame for good games not selling as the pirates are. So what I’d propose is moderation in everything, I’d actually like to see all games get shareware-like releases, that would help offset this problem, but in the absence of that, I would surmise that a pirate could use a pirated game in the same way, buying the games said pirate thinks deserves the money with the funds they have.

    So what I’m trying to point out here is that if piracy is used honourably, and money is put out by pirates, then I would think it’s fair to state that piracy can have a positive impact on the games industry, by allowing gamers to reward the developers that do well over those who’re more skilled at pulling a con.

    My claim: If a gamer has enough money to buy two games out of a pool of ten, and they pirate according to the shareware rules I’ve stated above (not playing any more than 20-30 per cent of the game’s content, from the start), and they buy the two games they think are the most worthwhile from the pool they’ve tested, then this could only be a boon to worthwhile development by rewarding the right people, and keeping money out of the hands of those who think the way to make money is by tricking people.

    This way, each gamer could decide upon the kinds of games and developers they would wish to support.

    And that’s my theory anyway. It is my belief that there is good and bad to everything, and to reiterate something I said earlier, a developer/publisher can be a shining paragon of merit and benevolence, just as a pirate can be a dirty, conniving thief. But based on the person or group of people, these roles can easily be reversed.

    And as my bottom-line, all I’m saying is that I think it’s right to have a fair portrayal of both.

    #71 5 years ago
  72. deftangel

    The entire point of the article, which most people seem to have fail to read was not “Suit whinges about piracy”.

    The gist of it is that would be detrimental to Stardocks’s paying customers for them to invest a lot of time and money into either preventing the game from being pirated in the first place or attempting to convince the 100,000 who have been playing a pirated version since release to change their ways because quite frankly, they aren’t going to.

    If they like the game so much they’re still playing it but don’t feel inclined to pay Stardock any money, they’re not suddenly going to change their mind if they stick a “shareware” tag on it.

    #72 5 years ago
  73. tenthousandgothsonacid

    I do hope Team Ico sue.

    Then we’ll see people pay for nicking stuff.

    #73 5 years ago
  74. mightyhokie

    He is right….at least in America. When someone (or a group or company) creates something they own the copyright. Intellectual property is equal to physical property. They spent the money making the game, they deserve to get paid by people playing it.

    #74 5 years ago
  75. DarkElfa

    I’m going to put this all in a nutshell. There is no proof whatsoever that piracy is causing any harm to the gaming industry, zip, zero, zilch. All accusations of such are postulations and theories only. They’re all based on pure assumption that the pirate would have bought the game if it wasn’t available to him for free from an “evil” source. The industry likes to use old words like “thief” to describe those who do it, but those words were created to describe activities during a time before the digital age. One can not “steal” information, they can only copy it illegally. Theft would be illegally taking possession of a thing while simultaneously depriving the previous owner of said item. A copy does not deprive the previous owner of his property.

    The only reason that any of the “smart” people involved in chasing down piracy do it at all is because if they didn’t than it would be tantamount to encouraging the 90% or so of the populace that actually purchases the items and fear legal retribution if they don’t to follow the pirate’s path. They know they can’t stop piracy and so they don’t really try. They know the best they an hope for is to keep the majority scared and in check and it more than serves their bottom line in the end.

    Also, just for giggles, I’ll remind you that just as you can’t steal data, you also can’t own data as a consumer. Do you think after paying the price required that you “own” that movie or song or video game? Ownership implies that you possess something fully and have the right to do with it what you will. What you actually get for your money is an indefinite rental and with modern DRM techniques its a landmine rental at that. DRM isn’t meant to stop pirates anyways, the industry knows that’s impossible. DRM is meant to make it impossible for the general public to make copies for friends and it does that job well. However, all these arguments are pointless. Piracy is illegal and downloading pirated material is illegal, I won’t and can’t argue that point. On the other hand, its illegal in the same way that prostitution and pot is illegal: there is no proven victim, only those who feel victimized. So until solid evidence is presented that shows piracy is doing more than just make businessmen and moralists bitch, I’ll continue follow my conscience and right now my conscience is clear.

    #75 5 years ago
  76. Psychotext

    “I’m going to put this all in a nutshell. There is no proof whatsoever that piracy is causing any harm to the gaming industry, zip, zero, zilch.”

    No proof of god either… doesn’t stop hundreds of millions of people believing.

    #76 5 years ago
  77. DarkElfa

    People will always believe what they want to believe and they’ll do it for whatever reason suits them.

    #77 5 years ago
  78. Aimless

    I’m pretty sure your earlier post already proved that.

    #78 5 years ago
  79. BC

    DarkElfa:
    “There is no proof whatsoever that piracy is causing any harm to the gaming industry, zip, zero, zilch … [Game Companies] know the best they an hope for is to keep the majority scared and in check and it more than serves their bottom line in the end.”

    So, your argument is that piracy doesn’t hurt the gaming industry, but game companies keep 90% of the public “scared” of piracy in order to “serve their bottom line” (both phrases being derogatory). So, you admit that piracy among 90% of the population would harm the gaming industry, but you claim that 0% of the people actually doing the pirating overlaps at all with the buying public. It’s funny that you are absolutely sure there is no overlap in these two groups. Besides, I’ve seen pirates admit that they’ve pirated stuff they would’ve bought – that piracy really did equal one lost sale in many cases.

    #79 5 years ago