Maybe you don’t realise but the further he can stay away from that whole aspect, the better it will be received. And the more he and his team stay in the dark the better too.

No logo, no official Team name, all of it goes to develop the cult/independent aspect.

I really do think also that the story’s in Shadow of the Colossus are my favourite becuase at this early stage in the mediums development, we need to start on a basic level. Sure there’s depth to it, if you want it, or explore it, or interpret it, but we don’t know how to utilise gameplay properly yet. Let alone interactivity.

Cannot wait for whatever comes next from Team ICO.

” And nothing in your argument makes sense. Nothing about Ico takes inspiration from film, and a huge portion of its emotion is conveyed through the actual GAMEPLAY. How is story conveyed through GAMEPLAY inspired by film? ”
where did I say it takes inspiration from the film? I said Ico is a virtual reality trip, it’s not a game in the way even XG is, let alone anything else less story-heavy..

MGS is an interactive movie, I said it is an example of presenting a plot and an example of one way of making games. I said I would rate it very highly but that’s not the only way of making videogames, and not the only way of presenting a plot in a game.

” Nice. You’re got so little to back up your points, and dislike being disagreed with, that you fall back on cheap, unoriginal flaming. It’s an old tactic.
Enjoy your day. <3 ”
that was meant as a reply to ” And thank fuck for that.

I know. Independent thinking. Crazy idea, right. ” bit.

and no, I understand people have different opinions. I would hardly call you self righteous if I hated being disagreed with.

No, I judge it as an art of its own. A young and still juvenile art-form, but still one when it tries to be.

And nothing in your argument makes sense. Nothing about Ico takes inspiration from film, and a huge portion of its emotion is conveyed through the actual GAMEPLAY. How is story conveyed through GAMEPLAY inspired by film?

Are you telling that MGS4 is *less* inspired by film? MGS4 ia 8 hours of cutscenes and 5 hours of gameplay.

90% of MGS’s inspirations come from films. Games like Ico and SotC and Rez try to convey their *own* ideas. That makes them better art by default.

There’s nothing artistic about ripping off someone else’s ideas.

“I wouldn’t call half of your comments such an independent thinking, I would call them violent twattery. but I digress.”

Nice. You’re got so little to back up your points, and dislike being disagreed with, that you fall back on cheap, unoriginal flaming. It’s an old tactic.

Enjoy your day. <3

” And thank fuck for that.

I know. Independent thinking. Crazy idea, right. ”
I wouldn’t call half of your comments such an independent thinking, I would call them violent twattery. but I digress.

” I’m basing them on their ability to use the medium of GAMING to present their themes and ideologies, NOT on the standards of “literature or movies”. I’m doing the exact opposite of what you’re saying. ”
btw, did I say this isn’t my first tongue? just so that you won’t comment on grammar or something like that, you know.. okay, I’ll try to explain my point, Michael..

I mean you judge videogames like it is the same ART as movies, just a different form of it. while some games try doing that actually (like Ico), it’s not the only way of making them, and I hope it won’t be in the future of gaming. Games are not art in the same sense as cinema, story was only a part of XG, when games completely try doing that ( like SotC ), they become a virtual reality trip.

I’m basing them on their ability to use the medium of GAMING to present their themes and ideologies, NOT on the standards of “literature or movies”. I’m doing the exact opposite of what you’re saying.

Metal Gear Solid 4 requires you to sit down passively for 2 hours between every mission, with the actual gameplay practically being a forethought. This is equatable to movies.

Xenogears requires you to sit through streams of pretentious text. This is equatable to literature.

THOSE are pretentious.

The examples I choose take gaming’s unique assets and use them as a means to convey their stories, instead or relying on film and literature techniques. The only one “judging games in the same way as literature or movies” is you.

I would in fact even agree with this, but that is only if you judge games in the same way as literature or movies like I said. Not everyone thinks like that. say in example Kojima has his own way of creating games, I would rate them highly but I still can’t stand it.

” I’m sorry if it seems pretentious to value this, but those two titles really have some nice depth compared to the average video game. ”
did I say it is pretentious? I said Michael O’Connor is quite a pretentious fella.

Chrono Trigger has a FUN story, but it certainly doesn’t try to be anything more than that.

“I said that XG uses a different approach to story telling, and it’s one of the way creating a plot in videogames.”

It dumps religious symbolism all over the place and rattled off Nietzsche every chance it gets. Anime has been doing that for years, and so have video games. There’s nothing even remotely original about that.

The story itself was told in a completely conventional manner – lots of text boxes that took hours to read through.

“you have a different view on video games to begin with.”

And thank fuck for that.

I know. Independent thinking. Crazy idea, right.

Nicefellow: Thank you. You put it even better than I could.

You’re right! I’m not going to bother dignifying his nonsense with further effort/comments.

That they do so while also providing very enjoyable gaming experiences is part of what I admire about them.

You don’t need to get into the story if you don’t want to – and I’d note in those titles the story is almost subliminal, and is not delivered via traditional plot, dialogue, etc. – but if you do want to pick up on the slow accumulation of various clues/narrative cues then they actually convey a great deal.

Unlike almost every video game, but in common with the best literature and films, they also have a core theme that is clearly conveyed throughout their game play.

I’m sorry if it seems pretentious to value this, but those two titles really have some nice depth compared to the average video game.

They’re still pretty light fare next to literature and films, mind you, and that’s why I think ‘ole Peter is talking a big load of crappola personally.

The two most common mistakes that young audiences make about good-storytelling is that the more convoluted a story is, the better it is.”
that’s what you did with XG to be honest. and I never “justified” anything. I said that XG uses a different approach to story telling, and it’s one of the way creating a plot in videogames.

and neither Chrono Trigger or Shadow Hearts had “convoluted” stories.

” No, I just have higher standards for good story-telling than you.”
gee..
you have a different view on videogames to begin with..

No, I just have higher standards for good story-telling than you.

and your four paragraphs essay over there followed by a “french movies” comment tells me everything I need to know about your insight into Nietzshe and psychology.

^ This.

Try to discover its story for yourself, instead of researching some essay SquallLover4621 posted up on the internet 10 years ago in an attempt to justify Xenogear’s pretentious plot.

The two most common mistakes that young audiences make about good-storytelling is that the more convoluted a story is, the better it is.

The fact that Final Fantasy XII’s stories doesn’t have 100 plot-twists is one reason amongst many that I consider it’s story to be a markable improvement over every single Final Fantasy that comes before it, and nearly every single RPG too, for that matter. The fact that it was able to weave subtle character development, without having to SHOVE EVERY SINGLE DETAIL IN YOUR FACE elevates it even further.

That tells me everything I need to know right there about your insight into gaming’s capacity storytelling.

Mind you, I *did* say that Ico did it might better than SotC did. I said SotC was good at it, but not the most defining example in the history of the medium.

If I wanted to watch some guy paraphrase Nietzsche for an hour and a half, I’d go watch a French movie.

you do realize there’re different ways of presenting stories in videogames, and there’re different opinions on what should games be like?

” Ignoring the underlying messages of a story completely defeats the point. That’s like saying that The Godfather is “just a movie about the Mafia”, or that A Christmas Carol is “just about a dream”. ”
Nonsense. SotC had no plot, it was just a virtual adventure with a well done setting.

Hey, don’t get me wrong. I enjoyed most of those games, and their stories were fun while they lasted. And maybe even of the best stories SO FAR.

But then, silent movies was considered amazing… until they invented film that could record sound. And how many silent movies of the thousands made do people remember? One, maybe two?

The “greatest gaming story” ever made will be one that transcends any cultural boundaries, relies on no cultural stereotypes, and will be understood, appreciated, loved and analysed by the whole world.

We’re not even *close* to reaching that.

Maybe *one* of those games will be remembered in a centuries time, when gaming buffs look back at history and the year that gaming finally started being treated as a possible medium of artistic expression. Until 40 years ago, nobody considered movies an artistic medium. 70 years ago, music was considered a cancer on modern society.

But all of those? Not a chance.

My money is on Ico being that game.

“so what was SoTC story about? no need for explaining the underlying opinions, er, I mean messages. just what was it about?”

Ignoring the underlying messages of a story completely defeats the point. That’s like saying that The Godfather is “just a movie about the Mafia”, or that A Christmas Carol is “just about a dream”. The underlining messages are *part* of the story, and its the defining factor that separates entertainment from art.

” I don’t see people the world over sitting down in universities discussing the intellectual merits of Xenogears. They’re too busy discussing history’s real classics to waste their time on something so utterly pretentious. ”
point being? this is silly. Xenogears is a videogame, and it was meant er, to be played you know..

and videogames aren’t even art in the same sense as movies or literature. and I hope they will never be. Because I like playing games, not being a part of a virtual adventure.

so what was SoTC story about? no need for explaining the underlying opinions, er, I mean messages. just what was it about?

that’s all for me…

The things you said about the JRPG is true but still the stories still stand still and have a potential that make it the best ever no games can reach what they did..

I never said it wasn’t.

I don’t see people the world over sitting down in universities discussing the intellectual merits of Xenogears. They’re too busy discussing history’s real classics to waste their time on something so utterly pretentious.

Xenogears took a famous philosopher’s ideas and put them in the mouth of a spiky haired anime teenager. This is not great storytelling.

“and did say, SotC have a story? could you please enlighten me on what was it about?”

I could write an entire essay on Shadow of the Colossus’ plot, exposition, structure, and underlying messages… if you really want me to.

and did say, SotC have a story? could you please enlighten me on what was it about?

EDIT: and “You guys really need to start aiming a little higher than Japanese RPGs that you researched the plots for on the internet…”
sarcasm? because I think that’s what you did. Xenogears were never released in Ireland, Michael.