Sony: DSi’s for “kids”

And just when I thought they’d stopped saying stupid things…

goo goo ga ga.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2009/04/sonys-ludicrous.html

Just about says it all, really. Sony had a number of angles to come at this, and chose the one which made it look the most stupid.

Particularly excellent is the ‘kids market’ broadside, followed by the proud trumpeting of a forthcoming Hannah Montana game. Jesus wept.

It’s quite something to make Fils-Aime’s bonkers comments last week look comparatively intelligent, but this has managed it.

It is for kids. And teenagers. And adults. And old people. And women. And dogs. And that’s why it’s so bloody successful Sony, you knobs.

I got one and I’m all adulted-up.

It’s hard for me to judge but isn’t that one of the dumbest things Sony have said in a long, long while?

They’ve spouted so much shite in the last few years that it’s difficult to tell.

Loving the drama and spiced-up levels of confrontation added to this story by the games media!

HoC, you need to stop jumping in front of any critical bullet fired in Nintendo’s direction. You’ve completely missed the point of the Hannah Montanna mention partly thanks to the way this story has been presented by the games media. You might also want to read some of the comments on the article you linked to.

He’s from Bizarro World, obviously.

From the comments on Wired:
Toyota makes more money than Ford, so should Ford quit?

Ford makes money now?

@Shatner, I’m just providing a bit of balance. There’s a lot of anti-Nintendo sentiment on here.

And I’ve read some of the comments on the article I linked to. I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.

It’s good that some Sony staff still perceive the DS/i in exactly the same way they did over five years ago when it first came out.

They probably think the touch-screen is still a “novelty” too.

Would you get Nicole Kidman or the Rednapps playing on PSP? I think not, Mr Sony marketing man!

Nintendo intentionally had a rather low-key launch to the DSi. They don’t want people to abandon their DS Lites entirely just yet.

doublepostcosofshittyVG247timeoutslol

I found the link to the article where the author was given a big cake of a DSi with his face on one of the screen by Nintendo most enlightening.

I think Nintendo deserve all the criticism they get – and then some. They’ve made some ridiculous claims and little has materialised to support them but the overall mood is that you’re simply not allowed to criticise Nintendo because they’re current favourites and you’ll get an internet roasting if you do. A lot of that is helped by the stance the games media portrays because they themselves don’t like getting roasted. I recall IGN, in a wonderful display of no journalistic integrity whatsoever, did an article covering the launch of the original DS in Japan showing a relatively cool reception instead of the expected mass hysteria and shoot-outs (people tend to forget just how unremarkable the first year of the DS was). After tons of grief from their readers they re-wrote the story to be far more jubilant and congratulatory. Then there’s the “8.8″ episode at Gamespot (who, at least, stuck to their guns).

How about your posts from Sunday? You were keen to ensure Nintendo get let off the hook for any shitty third party games that come out on their systems but when it turns out just how responsible they are for them you changed your tune and proclaimed how important it was to have all sorts of content out there.

By all means, provide balance. Just do it without constantly moving the goalposts.

I’ve gotta wonder if most of you guys simply read the deliberately sensationalist title and jumped straight to conclusions, or if you actually read the whole thing.

“If Nintendo is really committed to reaching a broader, more diverse audience of gamers beyond the “kids” market that they’ve always engaged, there isn’t much new with the DSi to support that.”

This is very much true. A few months back, Nintendo were spouting about convincing developers to broaden their games on their consoles to appeal to a more “mature” audience. An audience that still isn’t interested, and nobody is really trying to go out of the way to capture.

Much like Microsoft’s pitiful “casual games” attempts, releasing only one or two titles to a key demographic is not going to get that demographic interested. Unless they’re being released regularly, and consistently, they won’t care.

“Compare that with the PSP platform, where we have many blockbuster franchises from our publishing partners launching this year, representing a wide variety of genres and targeting diverse demographics.”

This is also true. For core gamers especially, there’s a more diverse range of titles on the PSP that appeal to the older demographic.

Nowhere in that excerpt does it actually argue about which sold better and which is more popular, so using the “DS is more popular” card is a bit of moot point.

Why is it that when Nintendo is mentioned as a singular entity, it gets blasted to pieces, but when one of the other console producers mention them they’re suddenly the messiah?

I wasn’t keen to ensure Nintendo get let off the hook for shitty third party games at all – I merely said it wasn’t directly responsible for the quality of third-party software on its own console.

I’m also not sure where I said it was important to have all sorts of content out there. I’m more than happy to criticise Nintendo when it’s deserved – Fils-Aime’s comments the other day, for example, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

Certainly Nintendo fanboys are extremely vocal – to hysterical degrees at times – but at the moment, I do think the company gets an unwarranted amount of criticism from certain self-proclaimed hardcore gamers and some websites too. Some Wii games really don’t get a fair crack of the whip, and others are marked down simply for appealing outside the traditional gamer demographic. And it’s all too easy for some to write off the DS’s entire catalogue as ‘shovelware’ which is patently ludicrous.

I mean, can you really say that this Sony statement isn’t ridiculous?

It’s far from forbidden to criticise Nintendlol.

(You see what I cleverly did there?)

But they *are* selling a lot of machines to quite broad demographics. The comment from the Sony exec is just bloody silly and probably quite wrong.

“But they *are* selling a lot of machines to quite broad demographics.”

Please do show me what exactly Nintendo itself is doing to appeal to the broad demographics. Nintendo’s idea of “broad demographic” lately is soccer moms and 10 year old.

They might release some stellar proper games when they actually bother, but those are a dime a dozen from Nintendo themselves.

“I mean, can you really say that this Sony statement isn’t ridiculous?”

I can. *points to his previous post for the reasons*

@ Michael O’Connor: “If Nintendo is really committed to reaching a broader, more diverse audience of gamers beyond the “kids” market that they’ve always engaged, there isn’t much new with the DSi to support that.”

This is very much true.

Is it? So Nintendo’s audience of gamers isn’t diverse and Sony’s is? So tell me, how many people over 30 do you regularly see playing PSP games? Why has Nintendo had massive success with older audiences or the female market if its console is solely for kids?

“Compare that with the PSP platform, where we have many blockbuster franchises from our publishing partners launching this year, representing a wide variety of genres and targeting diverse demographics.”

This is also true. For core gamers especially, there’s a more diverse range of titles on the PSP that appeal to the older demographic.

I don’t agree. The DS has an incredibly diverse range of titles, some of which gamers (like you, evidently) seem to completely forget about. You’re basically talking about yourself here. The PSP might appeal more to you personally, but to argue that the PSP has been more successful in targeting diverse demographics and that it has a wider range of experiences on offer is nonsense.

M-rated doesn’t mean mature. Remember that.

They might release some stellar proper games when they actually bother, but those are a dime a dozen from Nintendo themselves.

You do know what ‘dime a dozen’ means, don’t you?

They’re certainly broader than either MS’ or Sony’s.

Just because it doesn’t target ‘us’ doesn’t mean it’s not true.

“So Nintendo’s audience of gamers isn’t diverse and Sony’s is? So tell me, how many people over 30 do you regularly see playing PSP games?”

About as many as I see playing the DS, to be honest.

Except for the core gamers open-minded willing to accept the handheld, the only adults I know personally who even so much as touch a DS is the moms of the kids they bought them for.

“The DS has an incredibly diverse range of titles, some of which gamers (like you, evidently) seem to completely forget about.”

My DS collection is some 30 titles strong, so I’d so I’m more than well aware of the diversity of the games on it. They might be diverse, but that does not mean they appeal to the right demographics.

“Significant gamer demographic groups are being ignored”

Read that again until the point is made clear. Diversity doesn’t mean it’s succeeding to appeal to all demographics.

Put it another way… if I go into a clothing store which is selling stuff in fifty shades of blue, that’s not going to matter if I’m looking for a black suit.

“You do know what ‘dime a dozen’ means, don’t you?”

Yes, I do. I clearly messed up the sentence.

“They might release some stellar proper games when they actually bother, but those casual games are a dime a dozen from Nintendo themselves.”

Okay, to address part of the actual quote:

“Games such as Rock Band Unplugged from MTV Games, Assassin’s Creed from Ubisoft, Dissidia Final Fantasy from Square Enix, and Hannah Montana from Disney demonstrate the commitment that publishers have to the PSP.”

Right, well we’ve already had two Guitar Hero games on DS, an Assassin’s Creed game, several Final Fantasy titles and…well, there are any number of games I could directly compare to Hannah Montana. Koller could hardly have picked worse examples of how the PSP apparently offers a more compelling experience than DS.

He could have mentioned that Sony has been providing downloadable games for a while, he could have said that the DSi is more expensive than the technically superior PSP, he could have said that PSP has better multimedia capabilities. But he went down the really rather pathetic ‘DS is for kids’ route, and started pointing towards software that’s not even been released as to why the PSP is a more compelling console.

Really, for all the PR gaffes it’s made in its time, I can’t think of anything quite so forehead-slappingly stupid from Sony in recent years. He could have played up his console’s genuine strengths and completely failed to do so.

“I mean, can you really say that this Sony statement isn’t ridiculous?”

It isn’t ridiculous if you read it objectively without walking through the sensationalist, reactionary door that the games media is trying to lead you through.

For example, it’s NOT criticising the machine as a “kids” machine. It’s stating the if Nintendo are keen to broaden the perception of their demographic then the DSi isn’t doing much to push that view forwards.

After which it goes into a more typical marketing spiel by espousing the qualities and diversity of the product the representative is paid to promote.

It’s the diversity that is being argued here and is substantiated by mentioing, amongst others the Hannah Montanna title.

But thanks to the deliberately leading way the article is presented you’re told to read it as one company picking a fight with another company and, as you ‘cleverly’ pointed out, is then contradicting itself by mentioning it’s own kids games.

Once you can grasp the point about diversity you can better understand the purpose of mentioning a kids game in the response. That you’re so proud to have spotted it as a contradiction totally gives away the perspective from which your reading the statement.

Read the first line of the statement a couple of times.

Yes, one company might be looking to criticise another company, but it’s not on the terms that most people are over-reacting to.

This is why I don’t need the games media injecting drama and sensationalism into everything. It just fucks up what is actually happening and distracts from the actual information. But the damage is done and most people will lash out at the distraction than the actual content and will never even look back to re-read (or re-interpret) what was said. Not just in this story but in many many stories.

A ‘service’ that is meant to be informing is often doing exactly the opposite.

Okay, Michael O’Connor – can you really say, hand on heart, that you truly believe that the PSP is, in your words, ‘succeeding to appeal to all demographics’?

Also, what ARE the ‘right’ demographics, in your opinion?

I’ll agree that those choices are a pretty poor barometer of his point, but it still doesn’t change the core point; the DS is attempting to appeal to a a wide enough demographic.

This is a gap that Sony are hoping to feel.

Also, taken out of context, that quote is quite deceptive. You’re ignoring the other positives they mentioned.

“From our own first-party studios, we’re launching unique versions of LittleBigPlanet and MotorStorm, and we’re also planning a steady stream of downloadable games — both new titles and PSone classics — to add to the content that PSP owners can already purchase wirelessly through PlayStation Store.”

“Okay, Michael O’Connor – can you really say, hand on heart, that you truly believe that the PSP is, in your words, ’succeeding to appeal to all demographics’?”

I never said that the PSP was appealing to *all* demographics. I said it was appealing to the demographic that Nintendo isn’t.

“Also, what ARE the ‘right’ demographics, in your opinion?”

There’s no “right” demographic. Just different ones. If the soccer moms and the kids are getting their enjoyment out of the games that they play then hey, more power to them! That’s why they’d buy a DS, and not a PSP.

@Shatner, if Nintendo really isn’t interested in reaching a broader demographic than the ‘kids market they’ve always engaged’, can you tell me why the DSi ads are geared to appeal to adults? Can you tell me why Iwata has been asking developers to create ‘apps for the DSi Store? Or why two of the resolutely uncommercial Art Style games are two of the leading titles on DSiWare?

And I’m aware the mention of Hannah Montana was to promote the diversity of the console, but as Michael O’Connor said…

Much like Microsoft’s pitiful “casual games” attempts, releasing only one or two titles to a key demographic is not going to get that demographic interested. Unless they’re being released regularly, and consistently, they won’t care.

So it’s a bit silly to mention that when Nintendo has that particular area all but sewn up, and plenty of third-parties are releasing hardcore games. Atlus, for example, has had great success with its DS titles, almost all of which are real gamer’s games – tough, uncompromising, and as hardcore as they come.

You could certainly argue that western developers haven’t really utilised the DS as well as they should have (Rockstar’s recent example should shame certain other publishers, that’s for certain). But it’s simply a fallacy to claim that DS doesn’t appeal to a broad demographic, because it clearly does.

“If Nintendo really isn’t interested in reaching a broader demographic than the ‘kids market they’ve always engaged’, can you tell me why the DSi ads are geared to appeal to adults?”

What kind of adults, exactly? Wait, that’s right, the soccer mom.

Most middle age adults who own a DS have kids whom they bought them for, and they probably buy about two games for it in their lifetime, one of which is highly likely to be Brain Training.

Most core gamers tend to dismiss the DS entirely, which is a pity, because there are some great games on it if you know where to look.

They appeal to me because I have a broad range of tastes. Most people do not. Most 20-something guys want guns and violence in their games. Gore, cursing, and action games. They don’t want to play Meteos or Kirby’s Power Paintbrush, however good they might be.

THAT is what a demographic is. And business are run exclusively on appealing to the lowest common denominator of those demographics.

As with the case of most fanboys, you seem to mistake me criticising the format to mean that I don’t like it.

“You could certainly argue that western developers haven’t really utilised the DS as well as they should have (Rockstar’s recent example should shame certain other publishers, that’s for certain). But it’s simply a fallacy to claim that DS doesn’t appeal to a broad demographic, because it clearly does.”

Making a game and selling it are two very different things. It if “clearly did” appeal to a broad demographic, there would be a hell of a lot more core titles on the shelves, and a hell of a lot more games geared at adults as well.

Adverts are one thing HoC. The product itself is another.

Is the DS meant to appeal to devotees of Nicole Kidman or the Rednapps? But they’re in the adverts!! Are you telling me I should believe in adverts?

In particular, the argument is made in respect of the DSi – not the DS. With all the sensationalism and big animated “LOOK AT THIS!” signs the story is presented with, it’s not surprising that the parts of the statement that haven’t been deliberately sensationalised are overlooked by most readers.

What differences in the DSi over the DS directly address the existing criticisms that Nintendo have been recieving (from gamers, not from Sony) regarding the breadth of their content?

Where, in any of these criticisms has anyone asked for any of the USPs that the DSi offers over the DS?

Most 20-something guys want guns and violence in their games. Gore, cursing, and action games. They don’t want to play Meteos or Kirby’s Power Paintbrush, however good they might be.

In which case, Sony’s argument should be ‘the DSi doesn’t appeal to some (okay, I’ll be generous and go with most) twentysomething guys’. In which case, you could have a point. But what Koller’s saying is that Nintendo isn’t interested in reaching a broader and more diverse audience. Which is, I repeat, nonsense.

And I’m not saying you don’t like the DS – please point out where I did, and I’ll apologise – and I’m not a fanboy. I’m merely saying that this is a silly statement. Perhaps I set the wrong tone by quoting Kohler’s post, but I felt he made some very good points.

There are plenty of games aimed at adults, too. I’m not saying they sell massively well, but it’s wrong to ignore those titles just because they’re not massively hyped.

One point I’ll concede on, is that Koller said ‘blockbuster franchises’. And to a degree, there aren’t too many of those from third-parties on DS. Which is a bit silly considering those that are – Guitar Hero, for example – have sold pretty damn well. I think GTA’s assumed ‘failure’ is a little too early to call. Certainly it’s dropping down the charts a lot slower than Sony’s PSP titles seem to.

What differences in the DSi over the DS directly address the existing criticisms that Nintendo have been recieving (from gamers, not from Sony) regarding the breadth of their content?

Well, I’d say the PSP is getting more criticism from gamers than the DS is. Which is precisely the point – Koller’s making criticisms that his own console is currently failing to answer to.

“In which case, Sony’s argument should be ‘the DSi doesn’t appeal to some (okay, I’ll be generous and go with most) twentysomething guys’.”

Which is basically what they said. “The PSP appeals to a demographic that Nintendo isn’t attempting to corner.”

“But what Koller’s saying is that Nintendo isn’t interested in reaching a broader and more diverse audience. Which is, I repeat, nonsense.”

Then show me how they are. Show me how they are trying to appeal to the 20-something guys (which, lets not forget, is quite a large proportion of the industry), or “beyond the kids market” as they put it.

“Well, I’d say the PSP is getting more criticism from gamers than the DS is.”

People criticise a lot of things. That doesn’t make them right. They makes them sensationalist sheep. They hear something, and take it as fact. Those “facts” then proceed to spread to other people, so on and so forth, until they’re accepted as “fact” without any sort of critical thinking on the issue.

Most gamers criticise the Wii for not appealing to core gamers, despite the fact that “core” titles are being released weekly for the format. The stigma is already there, but they don’t care.

Way to go HoC. Instead of answering that question you just try to deflect it. Save tactics like that for the playground.

Well, at least I made some kind of attempt to answer it rather than resorting to insults. Can you answer my comment about the PSP?

I’ve already mentioned the DSi Store anyway. And Chinatown Wars is proof that Nintendo does want M-rated titles on its consoles.

Which is basically what they said.

No, that’s not what Koller said at all.

Then show me how they are. Show me how they are trying to appeal to the 20-something guys (which, lets not forget, is quite a large proportion of the industry), or “beyond the kids market” as they put it.

I never said Nintendo itself was trying to appeal to 20-something guys. Indeed, Nintendo seems to have had most of its success appealing outside that one demographic. But that’s not to say there aren’t any mature/hardcore/whatever titles on the DS. And if the console didn’t appeal outside the kids market, can you explain why it’s sold 100 million consoles?

You made no attempt to answer it at all – you claiming that is like Nintendo claiming they have a legacy of nurturing enthusiast development in a statement asking why they snubbed an enthusiast developer. It’s a complete opposite of what they’ve just done. Instead of answering the question you favoured deflecting it to another company.

Here, let’s try again:

What differences in the DSi over the DS directly address the existing criticisms that Nintendo have been recieving (from gamers, not from Sony) regarding the breadth of their content?

Where, in any of these criticisms has anyone asked for any of the USPs that the DSi offers over the DS?

I think you’ll find that if you care to look objectively at the differences it demonstrates that Nintendo is far more interested in appealing to the affluent iPhone demographic than any that play videogames. The introduction of the DSi Store and Nintendo’s pleas for developers to produce applications (not just games) for it only serves to underline this point in red.

I’m not convinced that one or two games amidst a sea of other games (there are over 3,500 titles published worldwide for the DS) ‘proves’ a serious intent for M rated games. One swallow does not make a summer.

It is more likely to prove that Rockstar are keen to profit from the success of the platform by taking their signature IP to it. They have done this before with earlier editions of GTA on both GBC and GBA. So, again, GTA on a Nintendo handheld is not some new proof that alters any sort of historic trend.

Also, clinging to Rockstar’s game of a multi-platform series isn’t a particularly strong demonstration of Nintendo’s intent to do anything other than to capitalise on the success of an established series.

I think a more convincing ‘m rated’ example would be a first party game that was DS specific and not part of a franchise. Except such a thing doesn’t exist.

I typed a big long answer, but it didn’t submit for some reason. The gist of it was that I agree with most of what you say there.

But we’re miles away from the initial point now. The point I was making is that Koller could have used several angles of attack to play up the PSP’s strengths. Instead, he relied on the tired old ‘Nintendo = kiddie’ argument and pointed to a bunch of franchises which already have an equivalent on the DS to demonstrate ‘the commitment that publishers have to the PSP’. When Ubisoft and Square-Enix in particular have released far more games for the DS than for the PSP, and would almost certainly contest the suggestion that there are limited opportunities for publishers to do well on Nintendo’s handheld.

He didn’t rely on it. As I’ve just demonstrated and as you’ve just implied agreement on: he observed that if Nintendo’s statements were true then the DSi enhancements over the DS doesn’t back them up.

Do the enhancements to the DSi over the DS address any of the criticism’s levelled at Nintendo’s current direction?

Or do we just splutter outrage at the impertinence of such a question being asked? Or how about repeatedly ignoring such a question whilst protesting its been answered?

It’s far easier to go into pantomime mode, pick a hero, pick a villain and boo and hiss. Perhaps if the story had not been posted in such a baiting and deliberately sensationalist manner the details in that first sentence wouldn’t be so keenly ignored.

And whilst you’re so keen dispel suggestions of immaturity in the content of titles on the DS I really wouldn’t be bringing Ubisoft’s output to anyone’s attention.

As for SquareEnix, I’d say they’ve supported both systems pretty well. However, it’s telling how little they supported Nintendo for the last couple of generations but how quick they are to attach themselves to a successful platform. Just as they flipped from being a key SNES developer to a key PS1 developer.

Did sony send this statement only to engadget?….

Edge are asking the same question.

It sounds like to me Engadget sent an email to sony saying “hey the dsi is out how do you feel about that” and sony replies (the way they did) with their own opinion. Then Engadget post it up as flame bait. Vg247 stalks the web looking for any good info/flamebait (to justify the sites name)then they post it to have xbots like blerk,morriss,o’connor feel good about themselves on a fresh start of the week. Which to them always means the doom for Sony.

THE END.

Blerk’s an Xbot?

You’re a Retard?

X-terminate!

It’s not like it’s the first time they’ve said something similar:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143180

Wow! Digging back as far as 2005 PT? Awesome!

Do I get to question why 360 games come on something other than 3.5″ floppies because some guy at Microsoft once said “640k should be enough for anyone?”. I do? Great!

Didn’t you know Shatner, I have a binder with all of this stuff ready.

(For what it’s worth, it was in another thread on the subject I was reading… just seemed appropriate that they’re using the same angle the second time around)

thats Psycho for you. He loves going back to the future

He didn’t rely on it.

Oh, come on. There’s a clear insinuation that Nintendo isn’t appealing outside the kids market. Which is clearly false.

Do the enhancements to the DSi over the DS address any of the criticism’s levelled at Nintendo’s current direction?

Or do we just splutter outrage at the impertinence of such a question being asked? Or how about repeatedly ignoring such a question whilst protesting its been answered?

Well, firstly, the criticisms of Nintendo’s current direction are levelled almost entirely at Wii. DS doesn’t get the brunt of the criticism because most DS owners realise it has a wide-ranging catalogue of games which appeal to all demographics. The Wii is far less successful here.

And I’m not spluttering outrage at all. I’m merely saying that, given the PSP’s strengths, it’s ludicrous to fall back on the same tired old criticisms and to pick some pretty poor examples of how the PSP is apparently appealing to all demographics. Despite those ‘blockbusters’, publishers (well, western publishers if we’re being totally accurate) are dropping the PSP like a stone. Also, I’m not ignoring the question at all, as my last few posts prove (indeed, my post which didn’t submit went into much more detail on that topic, but I’m not typing it all out again). Whereas you’ve not commented on any of my observations about the PSP.

And whilst you’re so keen dispel suggestions of immaturity in the content of titles on the DS I really wouldn’t be bringing Ubisoft’s output to anyone’s attention.

Please point out where I’ve tried to dispel suggestions of immaturity in the content of titles on the DS. Merely saying the DS appeals outside the tween demographic doesn’t suggest that I’m not aware there are a lot of games on the console which are targeted at a younger audience.

As for SquareEnix, I’d say they’ve supported both systems pretty well. However, it’s telling how little they supported Nintendo for the last couple of generations but how quick they are to attach themselves to a successful platform. Just as they flipped from being a key SNES developer to a key PS1 developer.

True. Not sure what it has to do with anything at all, but that’s a perfectly reasonable observation I suppose.

“It’s not like it’s the first time they’ve said something similar:”

I fail to see what a remark made 4 years ago by Phil Harrison (a master of hyperbole if every there was one) has to do with a comment made now, in the present, by John Koller.

“I’m merely saying that, given the PSP’s strengths, it’s ludicrous to fall back on the same tired old criticisms and to pick some pretty poor examples of how the PSP is apparently appealing to all demographics.”

You took his entire statement out of context. You only listed half the examples and reason he gave.

Various PR suits have said it a over the years… but no, I’m not going to go digging. Bit busy at the moment.

It should be pretty clear that they’re strongly focussed on owning a particular demographic and I believe Koller recently said something similar about GTA not being particularly suitable for the DS because most of its userbase is under 12.