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Haze has mandatory 4Gb install

Saturday, 17th May 2008 22:03 GMT By Patrick Garratt

hazea.jpg

Teh internets are less than happy about this. Ubisoft’s confirmed that Haze will have a mandatory 4Gb install. Reckon it’ll take over 20 minutes?

“You will need to go through a minimal install (about 4 Gigs) but not the whole game,” said Haze’s community manager, speaking here.

The Free Radical shooter’s out next Friday, PS3-only.

Breaking news

55 Comments

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  1. morriss

    720p only too.

    NO SALE!

    #1 6 years ago
  2. trav

    I love game community forums. Watching fanboys and internet snobs clash just brings a tear to my eye.

    My personal favourite line that must be said at least 1000 times in any community forum. “If I don’t get what I want, then I won’t buy the game”.

    I’m sure developers are rocking themselves to sleep each night after reading that on the internets.

    #2 6 years ago
  3. Psychotext

    Minimal installs are 4gb now? Scary!

    #3 6 years ago
  4. absolutezero

    250 GB HDD now. Don’t really care.

    #4 6 years ago
  5. Aretak

    4GB installs are the REAL next-gen, baby.

    #5 6 years ago
  6. Enkeixpress

    Omg.. Ouch.

    PS3′s getting worse at this sort of stuff…

    #6 6 years ago
  7. mortiferus

    This is a new trend I guess, but while not terrible as some would put it, it does bring up the question of why developers are not able to effectively stream data off BD-ROM (If that is indeed the reason).

    #7 6 years ago
  8. Daniel Plainview

    I could care less

    #8 6 years ago
  9. Shatner

    mortiferus – any decent developer will use all resources at their disposal. If that includes a hard disk then expect it to be used.

    As I understand it, Haze features no loading screens whatsoever once the game has started. If the price of total immersion in a game without it being broken by some loading text is a single 4gb install inconvenience then, in the scale of things, I’m more than happy with it.

    GTA4 doesn’t manage to do that.

    #9 6 years ago
  10. morriss

    Total immersion is many factors, not just no loading screens. It’s a great story, voice acting, no graphical glitches, interesting and varied game play etc. etc. etc.

    I don’t think no loading screens by themselves are conducive to “total immersion”, tbh.

    #10 6 years ago
  11. Shatner

    I’m taking “total immersion” as far as some take the notion of an install or a game being ‘only’ in 720p as being some sort of failure as to whether a game is any good or not.

    If we use that brand of logic than pretty much every less-than 720p game or pretty much every PC game must be absolute tosh, right?

    I think people have completely forgotten what games are about. The constant bickering over the unimportant elements of a game is ludicrous. Combine that with the double standards to which these ‘points’ are applied and it just becomes ridiculous.

    #11 6 years ago
  12. morriss

    Well playing a next-gen game in 576p because the developer a) didn’t add 1080i support and b) Sony didn’t make a hardware scaler pretty much ruins the experience for me. Playing a game knowing it could and SHOULD look better is a downer.

    Also, I didn’t buy a PC, I bought a console. One of the biggest attractions with a console is (or in this case was) the ability put plug and play: turn it on, put the disk in, and go.

    However, you are right. These things won’t make Haze a bad game. They just mar the experience for me and a few others, that’s all and are trends we don’t want to see continued.

    #12 6 years ago
  13. Tonka

    Cancels pre order

    #13 6 years ago
  14. Shatner

    I think you’ll see more and more of HD installs and I’m all for it.

    If more resources open up more avenues to explore or expand areas of gameplay then I say go for it. Games like Spore, Little Big Planet and World of Warcraft (none of which I’ve played) all have a very strong dependency on emergent technologies being used in games. All of them look to introduce or expand gameplay in compelling directions.

    If that necessitates a hard disk for cacheing data (which has as much to do with internal RAM as it does disk spinning speeds) or an ISP / network connection for collaborative/competitive/sharing play then, again, I’m all for it.

    The flipside of the argument is to keep gameplay the same but have the technology render it all in prettier, higher resolution graphics.

    It’s an abitrary argument at best. Because on one day people will claim they don’t care for graphics and gameplay is king, the next day those same people will bitch that a game isn’t in 1080p and that the textures aren’t to their satisfaction.

    I recall people bitching about Haze last year because they assume it’s another marine/jungle game of which they claim to be so bored of – then they dash off and buy Halo 3 or COD4.

    The vocal and idealistic gamer tends to be the most hypocritical one.

    #14 6 years ago
  15. deanimate

    i was a bit shocked that anyone could kick up such a fuss over this issue but then i thought for a moment. Ah yes, people are afraid of change.
    it must be that because a paltry few minutes to allow a game to run that much better? no way is that a bad thing.
    Last time i checked, hard drives can transfer data a hell of a lot quicker than a dvd drive (admittedly im not sure about bluray speeds).

    its all good people.

    #15 6 years ago
  16. morriss

    Yeah that’s all well and good but from what we’ve seen so far, the PS3 installs have added very little if anything at all to the overall game play experience.

    GTA’s loading times are about 1 second faster, as were DMC 4′s. Literally, 1 second. Aside from that there was no difference whatsoever between the 360 versions and the PS3 versions of the game. In fact, in most comparisons regarding frame-rate etc. 360 came out on top.

    If PS3 games actually benefited from these installs, and when I mean benefit I mean a markedly improved performance compared to what you can get from a streaming disk, the I’m all for it.

    However, it seems these installs are just to make up for the incredibly slow loading times the BD offers, not actually enhancing gameplay, graphics, sounds etc. compared to what you get on other streaming media from a normal DVD.

    Tbh, saying people are afraid of change is a bit of a cop-out. It just sounds like two people defending something because they own it.

    In short, give me installs if they actually separate the experience from that if you didn’t have an install.

    #16 6 years ago
  17. morriss

    Shatner: graphics are conducive to gameplay. All these game play > graphics arguments are redundant as they both depend on each other in a game.

    /plays Pong and Gears of War

    #17 6 years ago
  18. Shatner

    “If PS3 games actually benefited from these installs, and when I mean benefit I mean a markedly improved performance compared to what you can get from a streaming disk, the I’m all for it.”

    Except you’re not doing the comparison correctly. You’re not comparing the PS3 install to the PS3 without an install. Admittedly, you have no choice if the game doesn’t give you an opition. But you simply can’t say “it gives no benefit” when you don’t know what the performance was like without an install in the first place.

    On the other hand, I’m pretty certain the game developer knows the difference and, possibly, decided to spend the 6 months of time it would have taken to make the game run from disk on something more worthwhile – like gameplay balancing.

    If you can’t do a like-for-like comparison (without devolving to console-wars rhetoric) then you can’t possibly claim one method has ‘no benefit’ over any other.

    It’s some really skewed logic that’s going in to support “games installs are universally bad”. Who are you to say how it benefits the game or not? Did you develop the game?

    #18 6 years ago
  19. morriss

    Read what I said again: I said benefit over and above another version of the game that only streams from DVD.

    I have no doubt that without the install the PS3 version of the game would suffer, which is why they are there.

    What I’m talking about is if the install makes the game much, much better than the same game on the 360 for example. And if you look at the evidence, there is no difference.

    I think, as a PS3 owner, that it’s worrying to have these installs to bring the PS3 version of a game level with it’s DVD streaming counterpart. It should make the game run better than the other one, not the same or worse (which is what we’ve seen with every multiplatform game apart from Burnout).

    It’s basically the developers finding away around the slow loading times, nothing else.

    #19 6 years ago
  20. Shatner

    “Read what I said again: I said benefit over and above another version of the game that only streams from DVD.”

    I read it. But it’s not a proper comparison because you’re not comparing “install vs no install” you’re comparing “game on one machine vs game on another machine”. As such there is going to be hundreds (if not thousands) of differences between the two objects of your comparison even though you’re implying your argument is about a single difference.

    Your argument has changed from whether installs are useful or not to which console you prefer a game to run on over another.

    Which, in a topic about a game exclusive to a single platform, seems quite redundant.

    “I think, as a PS3 owner, that it’s worrying to have these installs to bring the PS3 version of a game level with it’s DVD streaming counterpart.”

    There isn’t a DVD streaming counterpart for Haze though, is there? So what is your comparison or judgement based on? Certainly nothing factual!

    “It’s basically the developers finding away around the slow loading times, nothing else.”

    As a game developer working on all next generation platforms I can assure you that there are a considerable array of reasons as to why an HD install is a very useful solution – not just a single one.

    #20 6 years ago
  21. deanimate

    maybe at the moment it might not make a massive difference but when developers get used to this option i would say the advantages of it will become more pronounced.

    #21 6 years ago
  22. morriss

    My argument hasn’t changed: my comparison is based upon the countless multiplatform games that require a mandatory install plus the Haze demo that I played – which basically showed me nothing that the 360 couldn’t handle framerate or graphics-wise. And I am comparing install vs. no install. The 360 doesn’t install the PS3 does – that’s the comparison.

    The topic isn’t about Haze anymore either is it? It’s about whether installs actually benefit games as a whole and from my experience, after installing countless multiplatform PS3 games, I haven’t noticed that the install has elevated the PS3 version above and beyond that which can be found elsewhere.

    If Haze actually accomplishes this: i.e. if people come out and say, this couldn’t be replicated on the 360 because the PS3 installs it to the HDD (and I’m not talking loading times, I’m talking heightened gameplay, graphics, sound etc.) then I’ll start to believe that perhaps installs are a good idea.

    #22 6 years ago
  23. morriss

    deanimate: But that’s based on what? A guess? Something you hope will happen? Developers have have had a lot of time to get used to the PS3 hardware and still games are getting delayed left, right and center.

    I think it’s time to stop saying “It’ll get better when the devs get to used to it”. We’ve heard this argument since Day 1.

    What happens if by next year it’s still the same? What do we say then?

    #23 6 years ago
  24. Shatner

    I think you underestimate what a powerful tool suspension of disbelief is morriss.

    Have you never been disappointed in a film broadcast on TV that gets interrupted by adverts and completely takes you out of the moment?

    I still think the criteria on which you’re dismissing and unreleased platform exclusive game is very very shortsighted. Yes, it may be your right as a gamer to dismiss whatever the hell you like for whatever reasons. But for me, as a game developer, to see such reasons clung on to so keenly at the expense of everything a game IS (immersive, creative, collaborative, fun, challenging etc etc) is hugely disappointing.

    The reception to Haze has ALWAYS been a shining example of vocal gamer politics and a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. More has been said (or dismissed) due to it being a platform exclusive or due to it being delayed or due to it having some song tie-in than anything about the actual game itself.

    If a game has to justify itself gamers by being on the RIGHT platform at the RIGHT time with the RIGHT features in the RIGHT resolution with the RIGHT loading times before they’ll view it objectively then, frankly, they’ve completely forgotten why people play (and make) videogames.

    It’s a shame this topic has turned into another short-sighted PS3 bashing argument. It would be more balanced if the reasons quoted had more weight behind them but all I’m seeing, based on my familiarity with developing for all current gen consoles ends up sounding like “PS3 is bad because it’s not a 360″. That the 360 even got brought into a conversation about a PS3 exclusive game shows just where people’s heads are at. I’ve not read anything particularly objective here. Sorry.

    #24 6 years ago
  25. Psychotext

    I see a lot of discussion here about installs improving things… but then I look at uncharted and realise what a good developer can do without requiring installs at all.

    The sad thing is that if this trend continues you’re going to be looking at having only something like 8 or 9 games installed before you have to start removing old installs to play games (on the PS3 40gb which most people own). That’s not even taking into consideration the size of patches, any demos you have downloaded, any media you’re storing on your PS3 and so on.

    #25 6 years ago
  26. Shatner

    Oh, incidentally, I’m aware of two foreign language reviews for Haze. One Japanese review give it the same score as they give The Orange Box (in the same issue) the other, Italian, review scores it 9/10.

    I don’t know enough Japanese or Italian to know if any points were deducted for install times.

    @Psychotext – that’s ok. Speak to certain people and they’ll tell you running out of hard disk space won’t matter as the PS3 has no games worth playing anyway.

    See how it works? ;)

    #26 6 years ago
  27. morriss

    Well Shatner, thanks for labelling me as a know-nothing fanboy PS3 basher.

    I’ve tried to explain myself and rationally and as intelligently as I can. However, it seems like I’m just short-sighted and wouldn’t know good development and great gameplay if it hit me in the face.

    Thanks.

    You just carry on being childish if you like. No-one in here has said that Haze is a worse game because of the install. You’re using that as some kind of strawman in order to ‘win’ an argument. Go right ahead, I’m not going to discuss something with someone who just resorts to insults when things aren’t going his way.

    #27 6 years ago
  28. morriss

    Psychotext: You’re not a developer, you don’t understand.

    If you level a valid criticism or doubt, you’re just a fanboy it seems.

    #28 6 years ago
  29. Shatner

    morriss, I’ve not labelled you anything. Please don’t misquote me or make cheap shots.

    And please don’t attempt to play the victim – I think the readership here is smart enough to read through stuff like that. Also, why on earth should people try to make me feel bad because I’m a game developer? Is it because I might have some understanding why some things happen (such as HD installs) instead of asserting a fictitious claim?

    “No-one in here has said that Haze is a worse game because of the install.”

    Well, uh, you kind of implied by agreeing and also took a swipe at screen resolutions in the very first comment on this post. Scroll up.

    #29 6 years ago
  30. morriss

    Ok. Whatever. Just tell me how is this supposed to be interpreted when it’s just me and you having the discussion?

    “It’s a shame this topic has turned into another short-sighted PS3 bashing argument.”

    Or this?

    “The reception to Haze has ALWAYS been a shining example of vocal gamer politics and a case of not seeing the wood for the trees.”

    My initial comment about not implementing 1080i support is a valid one. Actually I don’t really blame Free Radical either. I blame Sony. Why should the PS3 be the only, and by that I mean it’s unique, HD system ‘on the market’ that doesn’t include an on-board scaler? Why should I and thousands of others have to play games in 576p?

    Anyway, that’s an argument for another time. It’s just the reason I brought it up. I’m not going to spend over £50 (in Denmark) on something that cannot be played to its maximum potential.

    Hopefully I’ll be able to wangle a review copy instead.

    Also: I’m not really trying to score points with the readership either, tbh. So whether they can read through something or not doesn’t interest me at all quite frankly.

    #30 6 years ago
  31. Shatner

    Moriss, please accept my apologies for anything I said that you may have felt was directed as a slight to you personally.

    As a fan of Free Radical’s past games I’ve been following Haze for quite a long time and my comments about its reception are based on many many comments over the course of its publicity – not just ones made in any single topic.

    I very much enjoy reading VG247 – both articles and comments – and sharing in the community because I rarely see the sort of trolling or shallow feedback that blights other, higher profile games news sites.

    That’s made VG247 my first stop for all videogames news above all other sites. I don’t want to sour the experience I enjoy so much for anyone else here.

    Keep up the good work. :)

    #31 6 years ago
  32. morriss

    Your apology is of course accepted. :) And if I got my handbag out and became a bit bitchy then of course I too apologise.

    Hopefully you can see that my concerns are as a gamer, not someone who is just championing one system over another.

    I too have followed Haze for quite some time and have become ‘friends’ – as much as one can call someone whom you’ve never met on the internet a friend – with the Creative Lead on the project.

    For me, this discussion was never about whether Haze will be any good or not. Read the demo impressions on the site – we were impressed! The discussion (as far as I could tell) was about whether installs actually elevated a gaming experience on the PS3 over and above what could be found elsewhere. That doesn’t mean that PS3 games aren’t as ‘good’ or ‘there aren’t any games out/coming out for it’.

    #32 6 years ago
  33. DrDamn

    Couple of comments.

    Two reviews so far were Italian OPS3 mag (9/10) and Famitsu (34/40) – which is a good score for an FPS from them.

    Mandatory installs. I’m not so bothered about them if the install provides something significant over a non-install on the *PS3*. I don’t think all of these mandatory installs do add enough to warrant it.

    On a technical level it’s not so much the data transfer rate of Blu-ray which is the problem, as this is somewhat comparable to the DVD drive in the 360 – it’s the seek time which is a problem.

    Personally I though MS showed the way with a HD as standard in the XBox and then took a significant step backwards by not including one as standard on the 360.

    RE: the whole resolution thing. That is a bit of a sensitive subject for morriss and has been for some time. I fully understand his opinion there.

    #33 6 years ago
  34. Psychotext

    DrDamn: Famitsu gave Lair 33/40…make of that what you will. The other is an official mag reviewing an exclusive game. The quality of the game is largely irrelevant though, this seems to have evolved into a discussion of why so many developers are taking the easy way out with large (mandatory) hard drive installs. I personally love the idea of optional installs, and would use them if they made a significant difference… but I’m very much against mandatory installs.

    morriss: I was a developer, but I got out of that nightmare before the PS3 was released so I couldn’t really comment on it. =)

    #34 6 years ago
  35. morriss

    I was being facetious, innit. (or ghey; however you want to interpret it I suppose). :)

    #35 6 years ago
  36. DrDamn

    Oh yeah Official = large pinch of salt. Trotting out the Lair review each time with Famitsu is a bit much though. Every mag / site has a “Lair review” at some point.

    #36 6 years ago
  37. Psychotext

    DrDamn: The point with famitsu is that they allow themselves to be bought so I wouldn’t pay attention to ANY of their reviews.

    #37 6 years ago
  38. DrDamn

    Aside from Lair being a bit of a turd is there evidence for the review having been bought? I suppose their review structure of 4 reviewers scores seems to imply them all quite liking a turd because it tickled their particular fancy is a bit unbelievable though.

    #38 6 years ago
  39. Psychotext

    Famitsu submit their reviews back to the publishers for approval. Whether or not this particular one was bought off doesn’t really matter… they’re not trustworthy.

    #39 6 years ago
  40. DrDamn

    Ah, didn’t know that.

    #40 6 years ago
  41. deanimate

    /makes some toast

    #41 6 years ago
  42. Psychotext

    Can I have some toast?

    #42 6 years ago
  43. Tonka

    Toasts!

    #43 6 years ago
  44. deanimate

    looks like you’re all keen for some toast!
    thankfully ive just opened up my Toast Emporium in Pencader. Its run from a caravan, or toastavan as i prefer, and we like to think we don’t just sell people delicious toast.
    we sell a little bit of love with every slice :)
    TOAST!

    #44 6 years ago
  45. Psychotext

    Three slices of white, no extra love please.

    #45 6 years ago
  46. Killerbee

    Since I’m a PC gamer anyway, the concept of having to install a game once before I play is really not an issue for me.

    The problem I see with this approach on the PS3 is that there is a notable difference between my PC and the Playstation 3 – my PC has 500GB of HDD space and the Playstation 3 (in the only form you can actually buy it in Europe) has 40GB.

    A 4GB install is a drop in the ocean on a PC, but it’s 10% of total capacity on your console (probably more, in fact) for just one game. GTAIV mandates an install and I’m sure other titles have and will in the future, so that meagre 40GB of space is going to run out pretty quickly.

    Yes, yes, you can upgrade the PS3 HDD yourself, but about 90% of people buying the console are never going to do that, even if they’re actually aware they can.

    If 4GB installs are going to become more common as games get bigger (remember, Sony promised us they’d easily fill a BD in the “next” gen) then storage space is going to become more of an issue. I shouldn’t have to “uninstall” console games to make way for new ones.

    #46 6 years ago
  47. Aretak

    Longest comments thread evar?

    #47 6 years ago
  48. Psychotext

    Killerbee: It’s not just that. The massive advantage of a PC install is that you’re almost always running it from the HDD. To the best of my knowledge it’s only downloadable games that let you do that on consoles.

    #48 6 years ago
  49. deanimate

    *hands out toast* :D
    jam is in the cupboard above the fake badger.

    hmm, better crack on with more toast. this thread is turning into a veritable march riot (probably due to the free toast).

    #49 6 years ago
  50. G1GAHURTZ

    What a load of noise over such a small thing!

    At the end of the day, I think that what all this boils down to is not that installs make or break your gaming experience. Nor that load times are improved with such installs or whether or not this is a sign of good/bad development.

    The way I see it, the reaction of some people is just more dismay that we’re increasingly falling further and further from the PS3 that we were all promised in 2005 that pumped out 1080p through it’s two HDMI ports and could give us games twice as good as anything else thanks to the power of its 7800GTX level graphics, Cell processor and Blu-Ray technology.

    This is the console that we got so hyped about because of all the ‘rabbits’ that flew out of its hat at the slightest feather touch of its power button, and now, day after day, it just gets more and more normal.

    No actually, not normal. More and more like an alternative console that excels in some areas and FAILS in others.

    So Blu-Ray was supposed to be the ultimate gaming format… So much space, no developer in the world could squeeze a decent PS3 games’ worth onto a piddley little DVD. More hype that we fell for!

    Now it turns out that the 2x speed (or whatever it is) of the BD-Drive in the PS3 is causing such serious load time issues, that 4GB installs are becoming mandatory!

    The PS3′s Blu-Ray drive has become a stumbling block!

    I don’t for one minute think that these sort of installs were part of the original plan either, since the initial 60GB PS3′s were supposed to hold masses of movies, audio, pics, demos etc on top of being a games machine. Now we can only get 40GB versions in Europe, and I’m sure that Sony are hoping that we all buy more than 10 games over the PS3′s supposed 10 year life-span…

    Where’s the next-gen machine gone!?!?

    Where’s the new box that was going to make us all throw our PC’s away because it did everything better??

    What Sony needs is a AAA killer app that runs at 1080p, streams everything off the disc and has an amazing online mode.

    Now that would be more like what we’ve all been waiting for since 2005.

    #50 6 years ago
  51. Daniel Plainview

    I stand by my “I could care less” comment

    #51 6 years ago
  52. Hero of Canton

    If you could care less, then that suggests you do care. It’s couldn’t. The phrase has seemingly been bastardised by American game sites.

    Also, no-one should pay attention to the Famitsu score. The day anyone bases a purchasing decision on a Famitsu score is the day they lose any remaining shred of dignity they may have had.

    #52 6 years ago
  53. Daniel Plainview

    don’t be a prick hero :)

    #53 6 years ago
  54. Blerk

    I love the smell of irritation in the morning!

    #54 6 years ago
  55. deanimate

    this thread is inundated with toast!

    #55 6 years ago